Error encountered in: C:\HostingSpaces\weblevel\forums.barrelhorseworld.com\wwwroot\forum\templates\original\fragments\template-begin.asp
Microsoft VBScript compilation error - Expected statement
Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?
Ticktock
Reg. Aug 2010
Posted 2018-12-21 10:09 AM
Subject: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Extreme Veteran


Posts: 349
10010010025
Location: The Lone Star State
Why cant we have a numbered system like the team ropers? I dont have the time to produce this or I would but what if it was like the old $500, $1000, $1500 novice classes used to be but based on D Equistat earnings for your horse not rider? Barrel Horse News already reports divisional standings for Horses and States so why not? I personally do not have the horse caliber right now to run with true 1D and The toughs of the futurity/rodeo world so I stay away from the huge races for that reason but am building towards it. I would much rather pay a higher fee to compete against my true competition. So you know when you entered you would be competing on a fair playing field for your horse? I know theres always those sandbaggers but with the stats of Equistat sure makes it easier where before it was not tracked. So there would be an association that basically runs each Division as a separate class with a straight pay out. This would help the fall in the crack people. If your horse is most consistent in a particular D and has won more money in say the 3 D then thats your classification. Once you earn a certain amount then you bump up a D and so on. Just a thought.
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
IdahoBarrelRacer756
Reg. May 2015
Posted 2018-12-21 10:13 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Regular


Posts: 93
252525
Part of the problem with that is the accuracy of Equistat numbers. There a lot of very nice horses that just run locally that have probably never been entered in a race that reports to Equistat (or rarely, at least). They're going to show up with few earnings and be able to compete in a lower class, but still absolutely wipe the floor with everyone else whose earnings are really reflective of the horse/rider's ability.
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
Ticktock
Reg. Aug 2010
Posted 2018-12-21 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Extreme Veteran


Posts: 349
10010010025
Location: The Lone Star State
Thats where the board of the Association comes in. I pay attention locally to horses that win and I know im not the only one. Im sure that would happen on occasion but not the norm. Besides it would only take a few times before the board or members would call that person out and put the horse in the correct Division if that person decided to run at that associations race.
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
Whiteboy
Reg. Jul 2012
Posted 2018-12-21 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Military family

That's White "Man" to You


Posts: 5116
5000100
IdahoBarrelRacer756 - 2018-12-21 10:13 AM Part of the problem with that is the accuracy of Equistat numbers. There a lot of very nice horses that just run locally that have probably never been entered in a race that reports to Equistat (or rarely, at least). They're going to show up with few earnings and be able to compete in a lower class, but still absolutely wipe the floor with everyone else whose earnings are really reflective of the horse/rider's ability.

Then they get bumped.   It is pretty simple.  
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
1DSoon
Reg. May 2009
Posted 2018-12-21 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?





100050010010010025
Location: Not Where I Want to Be
 The D system is the single greatest reason BR has survived and thrived. 

You go to a numbered system and you will see the 1's and probably the 2's be non existent 

The numbers work in the Roping world becuase while a good horse is important, the ability to rope is more important. 

You can put a True 1D(you pick the one you want) on a true 3-4d horse and your going to still have a 3-4 result. 


 
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
rodeomom3
Reg. Dec 2007
Posted 2018-12-21 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Shelter Dog Lover


Posts: 10277
50005000100100252525
Isn’t that what the d system already does, a straight pay out against others who run in the same bracket/D.   It works pretty well without having to track stats, I don’t see what is unfair about it. 

Edited by rodeomom3 2018-12-21 10:54 AM
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
SKM
Reg. Dec 2003
Posted 2018-12-21 10:57 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Saint Stacey


5000500050005000500050005000500100252525
A numbering system was tried in CO in the mid 90’s. It failed. I was given such a high number based off of my AQHA show record (nothing to to with barrels) that anything I ran would have had to run in the open.

I can’t see how this would work for barrel racers like it does for team ropers. Team roping and barrels are like night and day.
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
Liana D
Reg. Sep 2008
Posted 2018-12-21 10:59 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Defense Attorney for The Horse


500100100100
Location: Claremore, OK
Several years ago there was an association in Ok. They had a numbering system for horses and riders. It was well run and they tried their best to assign numbers fairly. It didn’t last long because no one was happy with the numbers they got. The final straw was when a professional race horse jockey/barrel racer got a low number under her maiden name and won everything at their finals.
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
OhMax
Reg. Feb 2013
Posted 2018-12-21 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Married to a Louie Lover


Posts: 3157
200010001002525
1DSoon - 2018-12-21 10:42 AM

 The D system is the single greatest reason BR has survived and thrived. 

You go to a numbered system and you will see the 1's and probably the 2's be non existent 

The numbers work in the Roping world becuase while a good horse is important, the ability to rope is more important. 

You can put a True 1D(you pick the one you want) on a true 3-4d horse and your going to still have a 3-4 result. 


 

For once....

I agree with everything you said.

Maybe a Christmas miracle
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
Southtxponygirl
Reg. Nov 2006
Posted 2018-12-21 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



A Somebody to Everybody


Posts: 38010
500050005000500050005000500020001000
Location: *Seguin TEXAS of Course*
1DSoon - 2018-12-21 10:42 AM  The D system is the single greatest reason BR has survived and thrived. 

You go to a numbered system and you will see the 1's and probably the 2's be non existent 

The numbers work in the Roping world becuase while a good horse is important, the ability to rope is more important. 

You can put a True 1D(you pick the one you want) on a true 3-4d horse and your going to still have a 3-4 result. 


 
I agree, had to delete all what I said because I was just blabbing. But I agree with 1DSoon..   

Edited by Southtxponygirl 2018-12-21 8:59 PM
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
barrelchasinmonki
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2018-12-23 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Expert


Posts: 2410
2000100100100100
Location: the land of dust & sticks
 Something else to think about is a 1d, 2d, etc horse in say Ga probAbly won’t be in that same D say in Tx. It’s very much that way around here even. In general horses in one part of the state aren’t as tough as the other.
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
NipntuckLR
Reg. Mar 2005
Posted 2018-12-23 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Elite Veteran


Posts: 806
500100100100
Location: Duvall, WA
I personally think the D system is brilliant. It keeps people at all different levels coming back.
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
Quick3
Reg. Jun 2004
Posted 2018-12-24 7:00 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Elite Veteran


Posts: 996
500100100100100252525
Location: Oklahoma
Liana D - 2018-12-21 10:59 AM Several years ago there was an association in Ok. They had a numbering system for horses and riders. It was well run and they tried their best to assign numbers fairly. It didn’t last long because no one was happy with the numbers they got. The final straw was when a professional race horse jockey/barrel racer got a low number under her maiden name and won everything at their finals.

I remember this.  It only lasted the one year.   
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
OregonBR
Reg. Dec 2003
Posted 2018-12-26 12:25 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Military family

Champ


Posts: 19188
50005000500020002000100252525
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm
Whether you like or agree with the D system, you can't deny it's eliminated cheating. Some people lie and cheat. It used to happen a LOT. The way the D system works it doesn't matter how much money or how fast your horse or rider is. The only thing that matters is how they stack up on that day, on that run. It eliminates cheating to large extent. There is still some cheating. Like manipulating draw position. When people enter using Horse 1, horse 2, etc. or just barn names on registered horses, it's hard to know what they are doing for sure. Or the promoter allows them to pick their draw spot, this is cheating. But in large part it stops 90% of the lying.

Edited by OregonBR 2018-12-26 12:26 PM
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
bscanchaser
Reg. Feb 2005
Posted 2019-01-02 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?




100100
Ticktock, I've had this same question for a while.  One look at the World Series Team Roping payouts from Vegas and it makes me sick to think that the majority of the barrel racing world is perfectly content playing the 3/4/5D game where very few people are making money. The money earned divisions won't work as you will have 1d and 4d combinations running in the same group.  There needs to be a standardized rating that rates each horse/rider combo and then they are reevaluated 3 or 4 times a year by an overseeing board of directors to ensure they are correctly rated; this approach has worked across several team roping associations.  I agree the 3/4/5D's helped promote barrel racing and was a great thing for our sport 30 years ago but now it seems like we are perfectly content with the welfare barrel racing status where we are all barely able to breakeven.  After all the fees and office holdouts are taken from our entries, some races are barely putting 55% back into the pot which results in lackluster payouts when the same producers pay deep into each division to spread the money.  IMO, if we want big payout events we need to change how our industry produces races.          
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
lonely va barrelxr
Reg. Apr 2005
Posted 2019-01-02 12:51 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Reaching for the stars....


Posts: 12427
50005000200010010010010025
bscanchaser - 2019-01-02 1:29 PM Ticktock, I've had this same question for a while.  One look at the World Series Team Roping payouts from Vegas and it makes me sick to think that the majority of the barrel racing world is perfectly content playing the 3/4/5D game where very few people are making money. The money earned divisions won't work as you will have 1d and 4d combinations running in the same group.  There needs to be a standardized rating that rates each horse/rider combo and then they are reevaluated 3 or 4 times a year by an overseeing board of directors to ensure they are correctly rated; this approach has worked across several team roping associations.  I agree the 3/4/5D's helped promote barrel racing and was a great thing for our sport 30 years ago but now it seems like we are perfectly content with the welfare barrel racing status where we are all barely able to breakeven.  After all the fees and office holdouts are taken from our entries, some races are barely putting 55% back into the pot which results in lackluster payouts when the same producers pay deep into each division to spread the money.  IMO, if we want big payout events we need to change how our industry produces races.          



I think revamping how shows are produced and paid out is more reasonable than complicating the divisional scoring. I know how bad some producers can be. I won two saddles and two wildcards (meaning I won final rounds at our NBHA State Finals) and neither check was $200 with almost 200 entries. I won another saddle and wildcard under a different producer, a division down from the earlier saddles, with at least 25 less entries, and my check was over $400. 

I don't understand the team roping system since I've never been close to team roping. But I'm thinking what's the difference, really, over how the barrel horses are viewed? It's just that we all run together and then are scored out per division after all horses have run. But I may be missing the point of the team penning system?
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
OhMax
Reg. Feb 2013
Posted 2019-01-02 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Married to a Louie Lover


Posts: 3157
200010001002525
Remember though that the majority of ropings are NOT the World Series in Vegas. Not every roping pays like Vegas.

From the WSTR website a roping with 101-125 entries will pay 5 holes. WSTR stock charges are 20% except for the #8 which is 30%. So you’ve got 70-80% payback on your fees.

Also consider that not every roping has the Vegas type entry fee. $150-$200 per entry is pretty normal. There’s barrel races that have those kinds of entry fees too.

As for a rating system - how would you classify me if I haul 4 head to a race and have 2 finished horses in the 1D/2D, a colt I’m seasoning in the 3D and one I’m mentally rehabbing in the 5D? Should I have to run all of them in the “1D” and basically forfeit any shot at winning any money on 2 of them? That’s basically going to drive me away from “sanctioned” races and keep me at open races - the same way having his number bumped has driven my husband away from sanctioned ropings and kept him at open jackpots for now.

I’m not against bigger money races and opportunities to grow our sport, but I don’t think the team roping numbering system is a platform that can be mirrored in barrel racing - the balance of horse power and rider talent is too different.
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
NJJ
Reg. Jul 2006
Posted 2019-01-02 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Military family

Fact Checker


Posts: 15974
5000500050005001001001001002525
Location: Displaced Iowegian
bscanchaser - 2019-01-02 12:29 PM Ticktock, I've had this same question for a while.  One look at the World Series Team Roping payouts from Vegas and it makes me sick to think that the majority of the barrel racing world is perfectly content playing the 3/4/5D game where very few people are making money. The money earned divisions won't work as you will have 1d and 4d combinations running in the same group.  There needs to be a standardized rating that rates each horse/rider combo and then they are reevaluated 3 or 4 times a year by an overseeing board of directors to ensure they are correctly rated; this approach has worked across several team roping associations.  I agree the 3/4/5D's helped promote barrel racing and was a great thing for our sport 30 years ago but now it seems like we are perfectly content with the welfare barrel racing status where we are all barely able to breakeven.  After all the fees and office holdouts are taken from our entries, some races are barely putting 55% back into the pot which results in lackluster payouts when the same producers pay deep into each division to spread the money.  IMO, if we want big payout events we need to change how our industry produces races.          
Instead of changing the system ...... barrel racers need to start with the highlighted statement ...... Additionally, in the team roping, the ratings are on the RIDER only .... rarely do you ever see a team roper show up with several horses (many that are novice horses). It is not feasible to handicap a barrel horse rider by making them enter in a higher classification when mounted on a novice horse. JMO

Edited by NJJ 2019-01-02 3:31 PM
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
OhMax
Reg. Feb 2013
Posted 2019-01-02 3:40 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Married to a Louie Lover


Posts: 3157
200010001002525
NJJ - 2019-01-02 3:29 PM

bscanchaser - 2019-01-02 12:29 PM Ticktock, I've had this same question for a while.  One look at the World Series Team Roping payouts from Vegas and it makes me sick to think that the majority of the barrel racing world is perfectly content playing the 3/4/5D game where very few people are making money. The money earned divisions won't work as you will have 1d and 4d combinations running in the same group.  There needs to be a standardized rating that rates each horse/rider combo and then they are reevaluated 3 or 4 times a year by an overseeing board of directors to ensure they are correctly rated; this approach has worked across several team roping associations.  I agree the 3/4/5D's helped promote barrel racing and was a great thing for our sport 30 years ago but now it seems like we are perfectly content with the welfare barrel racing status where we are all barely able to breakeven.  After all the fees and office holdouts are taken from our entries, some races are barely putting 55% back into the pot which results in lackluster payouts when the same producers pay deep into each division to spread the money.  IMO, if we want big payout events we need to change how our industry produces races.          
Instead of changing the system ...... barrel racers need to start with the highlighted statement ...... Additionally, in the team roping, the ratings are on the RIDER only .... rarely do you ever see a team roper show up with several horses (many that are novice horses). It is not feasible to handicap a barrel horse rider by making them enter in a higher classification when mounted on a novice horse. JMO

It’s more common than you think that they show up with multiples. Runs can start to add up really quick with a progressive format and multiple partners.

But, a great/handy roper can make a shot when a green horse doesn’t give him a lot to work with. And you’re entering yourself, not your horse. If your main mount is working great you can stay on him. Or you can get off him for a couple rounds, or season colts with a handful of runs each.

Or if you get to admiring another guys horse too much he might just price him to you and you can hop on and try him right then - sold more than one that way.
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
rodeomom3
Reg. Dec 2007
Posted 2019-01-02 3:55 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Shelter Dog Lover


Posts: 10277
50005000100100252525
bscanchaser - 2019-01-02 12:29 PM Ticktock, I've had this same question for a while.  One look at the World Series Team Roping payouts from Vegas and it makes me sick to think that the majority of the barrel racing world is perfectly content playing the 3/4/5D game where very few people are making money. The money earned divisions won't work as you will have 1d and 4d combinations running in the same group.  There needs to be a standardized rating that rates each horse/rider combo and then they are reevaluated 3 or 4 times a year by an overseeing board of directors to ensure they are correctly rated; this approach has worked across several team roping associations.  I agree the 3/4/5D's helped promote barrel racing and was a great thing for our sport 30 years ago but now it seems like we are perfectly content with the welfare barrel racing status where we are all barely able to breakeven.  After all the fees and office holdouts are taken from our entries, some races are barely putting 55% back into the pot which results in lackluster payouts when the same producers pay deep into each division to spread the money.  IMO, if we want big payout events we need to change how our industry produces races.          

 My husband shoots sporting clays and that is how that sport is done.    You start off on the lowest level, earn “punches” thru participating in tournaments and winning/placing in your division.   You earn a certain amount of punches and then you bump up to the next class with the master class being the top division.   Each division only competes against itself but the downside is if you have a score that maybe would’ve won the class below you but not high enough to place in your class , you get nothing.  I see shooters manipulate the system, not turn in scores because they don’t want to bump up.   I think that would go over like a lead balloon and barrel racing.   And what a hassle trying to evaluate rider/horse combination throughout the year.   The current D system gives everybody a chance to play.  I’m in South East Texas and we don’t have a ton of fees an 80% payout race may have a five/ten dollar office fee with it but that’s it.

Edited by rodeomom3 2019-01-04 12:47 PM
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
classicpotatochip
Reg. Mar 2011
Posted 2019-01-03 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Owner of a ratting catting machine


Posts: 2258
20001001002525
Barrel racing can’t compare to the team roping number system. We don’t enter or run similarly for one thing.

One guy can rope 12-16 times in one roping if he wants to put up the money. The World Series fees were $2,250 a man, with each team guaranteed 3 runs. I’ve yet to see a can chaser put up that money for anything ever. Most of our horses wouldn’t handle 3 runs within a 45 minute period, much less 12-16 in a few hours.

I can see numbering horses themselves like team ropers, but who’s going to keep track of them all? Not I.


I would love to see higher fees to play the barrel racing game. Pay to play. Producers everywhere would have to band together though, because the $90 entry 40 minutes away isn’t going to get as many entries as the $30 entry an hour away. There’s too many chances to walk away without anything as compared to winning a place for most of us to put our money where our mouths are.

I can see the value of doing a full revamp, but who’s going to make it happen?

I’ve jackpotted in largely every region of the country, and everyone does it differently, some for the better, most for the largely worse.
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
cindyt
Reg. Dec 2003
Posted 2019-01-03 1:04 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Ms Bling Bling Sleeze Kitty


Posts: 20477
5000500050005000100100100100252525
Location: LouLouVille, OK
 Im really not sure why you would stay away from any big race that is a 5D... you don't have to have a 1D to get in the money at those...
and for me... if I ran with only people in my D... it wouldn't push me to try to do better.  Those 1D girls make me WANT it more... I admire them, I don't dislike them.... I want to get there, and with out  that competition... I would probably just stay where I am, if that makes sense... I mean I am thrilled where I have been... but I always want to do better....   With the ropers... I always tell my husband to roper with higher numbered ropers from time to time to push him to his full potential as well :)
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
OhMax
Reg. Feb 2013
Posted 2019-01-03 8:03 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Married to a Louie Lover


Posts: 3157
200010001002525
classicpotatochip - 2019-01-03 12:15 PM

Barrel racing can’t compare to the team roping number system. We don’t enter or run similarly for one thing.

One guy can rope 12-16 times in one roping if he wants to put up the money. The World Series fees were $2,250 a man, with each team guaranteed 3 runs. I’ve yet to see a can chaser put up that money for anything ever. Most of our horses wouldn’t handle 3 runs within a 45 minute period, much less 12-16 in a few hours.

I can see numbering horses themselves like team ropers, but who’s going to keep track of them all? Not I.


I would love to see higher fees to play the barrel racing game. Pay to play. Producers everywhere would have to band together though, because the $90 entry 40 minutes away isn’t going to get as many entries as the $30 entry an hour away. There’s too many chances to walk away without anything as compared to winning a place for most of us to put our money where our mouths are.

I can see the value of doing a full revamp, but who’s going to make it happen?

I’ve jackpotted in largely every region of the country, and everyone does it differently, some for the better, most for the largely worse.

I don’t think you have to revamp the system, persay.

Remember Vegas is the grand finale finals of the WSTR. It pays like a slock machine because of the high entry fee, but also the number of entries. I couldn’t find the total entries for this year - but I found a 2016 FloRodeo article that said over 3800 contestants attended the Vegas event that year, and over 100,000 teams roped at 140 qualifying events. And it didn’t always pay as tremendously as this year - in 2013, the oldest results on the WSTR website, winning the #9 paid $181,000. This year it paid $350,000. YES $181k is still a crapload of prize money, my point is that participation has increased tremendously over the last few years to ratchet the payout up to levels that made everyone’s eyes bug out this year.

So do we need a new system - or do we need a national organization to host an annual finals with a big entry fee and qualifying events throughout the year? How is what WSTR does in Vegas any different than say, BBR finals in OKC? As a national finals that you have to qualify to go to, it’s not. As a high entry fee with LOTS of players - they’ve got a good thing going, and I’m not sure how to get barrel racing on the same page.

Remember while the TR take home $ was bigger - the chance of earning a check was smaller. I cannot find any total entry number, but I did see on FB where they said the #14 had over 500 entries. The results shows 27 places paid - if it was 500 entries on the nose that’s a 5.4% shot at getting a check. That’s the equivalent of a 5D with 500 entries paying 5-6 places per D.

Maybe it is the difference in men and women and a willingness to gamble - maybe it’s knowing if you get out there and invest all that money and your horse is off his game you can either rope more aggressively to make up for it - or even opt to mount out and pay someone a little mount money to ride a horse who’s on his A game. If as barrel racers we invest all that money and our horse is off - typically, we dont have those options. That makes the stakes feel a bit higher.
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
classicpotatochip
Reg. Mar 2011
Posted 2019-01-03 8:52 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Owner of a ratting catting machine


Posts: 2258
20001001002525
OhMax - 2019-01-03 8:03 PM

classicpotatochip - 2019-01-03 12:15 PM

Barrel racing can’t compare to the team roping number system. We don’t enter or run similarly for one thing.

One guy can rope 12-16 times in one roping if he wants to put up the money. The World Series fees were $2,250 a man, with each team guaranteed 3 runs. I’ve yet to see a can chaser put up that money for anything ever. Most of our horses wouldn’t handle 3 runs within a 45 minute period, much less 12-16 in a few hours.

I can see numbering horses themselves like team ropers, but who’s going to keep track of them all? Not I.


I would love to see higher fees to play the barrel racing game. Pay to play. Producers everywhere would have to band together though, because the $90 entry 40 minutes away isn’t going to get as many entries as the $30 entry an hour away. There’s too many chances to walk away without anything as compared to winning a place for most of us to put our money where our mouths are.

I can see the value of doing a full revamp, but who’s going to make it happen?

I’ve jackpotted in largely every region of the country, and everyone does it differently, some for the better, most for the largely worse.

I don’t think you have to revamp the system, persay.

Remember Vegas is the grand finale finals of the WSTR. It pays like a slock machine because of the high entry fee, but also the number of entries. I couldn’t find the total entries for this year - but I found a 2016 FloRodeo article that said over 3800 contestants attended the Vegas event that year, and over 100,000 teams roped at 140 qualifying events. And it didn’t always pay as tremendously as this year - in 2013, the oldest results on the WSTR website, winning the #9 paid $181,000. This year it paid $350,000. YES $181k is still a crapload of prize money, my point is that participation has increased tremendously over the last few years to ratchet the payout up to levels that made everyone’s eyes bug out this year.

So do we need a new system - or do we need a national organization to host an annual finals with a big entry fee and qualifying events throughout the year? How is what WSTR does in Vegas any different than say, BBR finals in OKC? As a national finals that you have to qualify to go to, it’s not. As a high entry fee with LOTS of players - they’ve got a good thing going, and I’m not sure how to get barrel racing on the same page.

Remember while the TR take home $ was bigger - the chance of earning a check was smaller. I cannot find any total entry number, but I did see on FB where they said the #14 had over 500 entries. The results shows 27 places paid - if it was 500 entries on the nose that’s a 5.4% shot at getting a check. That’s the equivalent of a 5D with 500 entries paying 5-6 places per D.

Maybe it is the difference in men and women and a willingness to gamble - maybe it’s knowing if you get out there and invest all that money and your horse is off his game you can either rope more aggressively to make up for it - or even opt to mount out and pay someone a little mount money to ride a horse who’s on his A game. If as barrel racers we invest all that money and our horse is off - typically, we dont have those options. That makes the stakes feel a bit higher.

Right. I get it. I was at the WS finals this year.

I don’t know how to bring barrel racing into higher payouts without higher entries, and getting barrel racers to fork out the change is going to be difficult.
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
clover girl
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2019-01-04 7:30 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



The Worst Seller Ever


Posts: 4129
2000200010025
Location: Oklahoma
lonely va barrelxr - 2019-01-02 12:51 PM
bscanchaser - 2019-01-02 1:29 PM Ticktock, I've had this same question for a while.  One look at the World Series Team Roping payouts from Vegas and it makes me sick to think that the majority of the barrel racing world is perfectly content playing the 3/4/5D game where very few people are making money. The money earned divisions won't work as you will have 1d and 4d combinations running in the same group.  There needs to be a standardized rating that rates each horse/rider combo and then they are reevaluated 3 or 4 times a year by an overseeing board of directors to ensure they are correctly rated; this approach has worked across several team roping associations.  I agree the 3/4/5D's helped promote barrel racing and was a great thing for our sport 30 years ago but now it seems like we are perfectly content with the welfare barrel racing status where we are all barely able to breakeven.  After all the fees and office holdouts are taken from our entries, some races are barely putting 55% back into the pot which results in lackluster payouts when the same producers pay deep into each division to spread the money.  IMO, if we want big payout events we need to change how our industry produces races.          




I think revamping how shows are produced and paid out is more reasonable than complicating the divisional scoring. I know how bad some producers can be. I won two saddles and two wildcards (meaning I won final rounds at our NBHA State Finals) and neither check was $200 with almost 200 entries. I won another saddle and wildcard under a different producer, a division down from the earlier saddles, with at least 25 less entries, and my check was over $400. 



I don't understand the team roping system since I've never been close to team roping. But I'm thinking what's the difference, really, over how the barrel horses are viewed? It's just that we all run together and then are scored out per division after all horses have run. But I may be missing the point of the team penning system?

This is the biggest issue at barrel races.  We are fee-ed to death and when you add up everything you are out, then see what is in actually in the pot it is eye opening.

I had a race Tuesday and although I charged a barn fee, I did not hold a percentage out of the entry fee.  60ish runs and the 1D paid almost $300 and I paid 4 in each D.  So 25% of the people entered got a check.

I also think barrel races pay too deep sometimes.  If last hole is not at least making their fees back, then IMO it paid too deep.  

As far as the clasification system, the horse plays way too big of a part in barrel racing for a classification system.  You could clasify on the horse, but that would be a LOT of leg work for the association.  To break it down to numbers, barrel is 80% horse, where roping is closer to 40-50% horse (yes a good horse makes a difference in roping, but a person can take up some of an average horse's slack.)

 
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
chasendacash
Reg. Oct 2008
Posted 2019-01-06 9:50 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Expert


Posts: 1543
100050025
Location: west of East Texas
If you rate the person, the person is penalized if they start bringing a young horse to season.  If you rate the horse, the new buyer is penalized for buying a better, step-up, teach me to ride better, horse.  So each (horse and rider) would have to carry a number then be classified.  I don't know many trainers that need that kind stress.  LOL   It would also be a lot of trouble checking in all the horses at every race.  Nationwide, the majority of the producers don't report to Equistat, don't want to report, and so a 'general' stats register is grossly incomplete for a local barrel race.

As far as higher dollar payouts, that comes from sponsors and we aren't talking about the local feed store and equine therapist.  Corporate sponsorship is going to follow a national association, good business decision.  There are high dollar entry races and there are low dollar entry races (and gasp... even playdays if you really want low dollar practice/fun) and they each have their own customers, a lot of the same customers too.  The 5D system is IMO a great 'classification' method for two athletes' performance on a given day.   
↑ Top ↓ Bottom
Whinny19
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2019-01-12 1:32 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Brains Behind the Operation...


Posts: 4533
2000200050025
Location: Arizona
I agree with 1D's post as well. The D system has absolutely saved, and boomed, the barrel horse industry.

I don't see how the format the OP describes would work on a national scale, with large purses. It can, however, work on a smaller, local scale. There is an association here in southern AZ that uses a format similar to what OP talks about. Rather than a number system for the riders, each horse and rider combo are ranked. So the same horse can be ranked differently with different riders, and the same rider can be ranked differently depending on which horse they are riding. Before a rider and horse can enter an event, they must make some qualifying runs (I can't remember how many, 2 or 3 I think). Then they are put in a rank or division according to the average of the qualifying runs. If you end up running times slower or faster than your rank at (I think) 2 events within a season, you get bumped up or down accordingly. It works pretty well as a local association. Yes, there are a few people who hold back in their qualifying runs to try to sneak into slower divisions, but it will only work a couple times, and they aren't running for big enough money to make it worth the effort for most people to cheat.

However, a big national show with a large purse would bring in legions of cheaters. They only need to win one show to make it worthwhile.  
↑ Top ↓ Bottom