Barrel Racing at Barrel Horse World.com - Horses, friendy active forums, articles, more.
  Folks on-line
 
1
Forums Albums Skins 1
Search Register Logon

You are logged in as a guest. Logon or register an account to access more features.
OTHER FORUMS:    Winter Lodging  -   Horse Trailers  -   Trucks   -   Cutting  -   Reining  -   Roping 
'
Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!
Moderators: gotothewhip, Farrierlady, ForumAdmin, crossspur
Out-Rider: txdad


Jump to page : 1 2 3 4 5
Now viewing page 1 [20 messages per page]		Last activity 2008-12-24 2:53 PM
84 replies, 2637 views

View previous thread :: View next thread
   General Discussion -> Barrel TalkRefresh
Message format
 
watchpeppydoc
Posted 2008-12-22 2:00 AM (#3589451)
Subject: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



Banjo and Baby

Posts: 5540
500050025
Location: South of Canada and North of Mexico		This family needs some help. They are from UT I believe... and the baby they adopted came out of hte Leach Lake Band of Indians, which is 10 miles due east of my land. This really is pulling on me as it does not susprise me at all that the indians can get this kind of result seeing how it went through tribal court. If anyone can do anything to help this family it would be great, tis the season to help one another and they sure need a Christmas miracle..

here is a blogspot

http://www.talonsadoption.blogspot.com/ the pictures will bout make you cry! What a sweet looking babe!

Here is the facebook Cause...
http://apps.facebook.com/causes/176193?recruiter_id=31755893

I know we have some VERY awesome helpful more than willing people on here, perhaps someone knows the right person to help this family!

thank you



Top of the page Bottom of the page
watchpeppydoc
Posted 2008-12-22 2:01 AM (#3589453 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



Banjo and Baby

Posts: 5540
500050025
Location: South of Canada and North of Mexico		this was also on Good Morning America and an interview ran in our paper on the 17th the website is www.bemidjipioneer.com
Top of the page Bottom of the page
tripleE
Posted 2008-12-22 6:44 AM (#3589491 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



Triple Extra-Ordinaire

Posts: 3129
2000100010025
Location: Okla		Prayers for Baby Talon and his adopted family that everything will work out.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
docschic
Posted 2008-12-22 4:39 PM (#3591395 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!


Sideways Riding Expert

Posts: 6627
5000100050010025
Location: ND--it snows, it floods, it snows, it floods

Wow!!!!

Top of the page Bottom of the page
skeeter 777
Posted 2008-12-22 4:41 PM (#3591405 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



Perky Gal

200020001001002525
Location: On a sorrel horse...		 
Top of the page Bottom of the page
realitycheck
Posted 2008-12-22 4:46 PM (#3591431 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



Tell It Like It Is

Posts: 10554
500050005002525
Location: Never Summer, Wyoming		I saw that on the news, as we get our news out of Utah.  It made me so gosh dang mad.

I can see why in the past they had this law in place, but things are different now, this law needs to change.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
reata80
Posted 2008-12-22 4:48 PM (#3591437 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



Oh Quit Whining!

500020002000500100100100100252525
Location: where the snotcicles are starting early this year
Top of the page Bottom of the page
RoanyGoodPoni
Posted 2008-12-22 7:19 PM (#3591981 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!


Elite Veteran

Posts: 687
500100252525
Location: North of Tulsa, Oklahoma		I'm not going to go into many details...but there needs to be an understanding about cases such as this.

Not that I don't feel for the family, its heart wrenching.

But, the Indian Child Welfare Act (ICWA) specifies how Indian children may be placed/adopted. Many times placements and/or adoptions are overturned due to not complying with ICWA. ICWA is a federal law the is also included in the state/tribal agreements. ICWA mandates the laws that refer to Indian children in custody of tribes or states (DHS) and must be followed. My guess would be that ICWA was not followed in this case, therefore leaving room for it to be overturned.

I'm not just quoting something I heard...I work for a large tribe as an Indian Child Welfare Specialist. I deal with ICWA daily. If this case were originally heard/settled in a tribal court, following ICWA would not have been an issue as tribal placement preferences would have followed. If this were settled in district court or privately, that is probably the issue, as Native American ancestry may have been swept under the rug.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
KatyMay
Posted 2008-12-22 7:23 PM (#3591992 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



Shopping Queen

Posts: 28663
50005000500050005000200010005001002525
Location: Chuckle Nutt-ville!!!		I didn't read the article and really don't know what's going on.

But if they're trying to win against the Tribal court they might as well give up.
I see it every day at work at the hospital.
The indian reservations and tribes have their own set of rules and basically can not be touched.
We've seen it time and time again.
Very sad to have to go through this during Christmas.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
watchpeppydoc
Posted 2008-12-22 7:24 PM (#3591996 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



Banjo and Baby

Posts: 5540
500050025
Location: South of Canada and North of Mexico		But if this baby is only 3/16 Indian how can ICWI (Is that correct?) be involved. Heck the mother susposably lied on her application for hte adoption saying she was IRISH!!! And her HUSBAND was her BOYFRIEND! this family should be protected from this, they paid their money and helped this "girl" out and then to have everything taken, they should not take the child, they should do something to the birthmom as she is the one who messed up. Chalk it up to an oops and change the laws....

Maybe your reservations are nicer down there but up here... theres no way I'd live any closer and to take a child regardless of race or lack of should be taken out of a loving caring family and put into foster care because of their skin/ethnic background.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
RoanyGoodPoni
Posted 2008-12-22 7:43 PM (#3592064 - in reply to #3591996)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!


Elite Veteran

Posts: 687
500100252525
Location: North of Tulsa, Oklahoma
watchpeppydoc - 2008-12-22 7:24 PM

But if this baby is only 3/16 Indian how can ICWI (Is that correct?) be involved. Heck the mother susposably lied on her application for hte adoption saying she was IRISH!!! And her HUSBAND was her BOYFRIEND! this family should be protected from this, they paid their money and helped this "girl" out and then to have everything taken, they should not take the child, they should do something to the birthmom as she is the one who messed up. Chalk it up to an oops and change the laws....

Maybe your reservations are nicer down there but up here... theres no way I'd live any closer and to take a child regardless of race or lack of should be taken out of a loving caring family and put into foster care because of their skin/ethnic background.




I'm not trying to start an argument here, but the law is what it is. First of all they should have had an attorney who understood ICWA laws, as the adoption would have never taken place in the first place. It doesn't matter if the child is 3/16 or 16/16, its the fact that he is a member of or eligible to be a member of a native tribe. The court messed up in the first place if Native American heritage wasn't investigated to begin with. I don't think the tribe is "out to hurt" this family, they are following the law and by law there is a time period where the parent can "change their mind".

If she lied about the heritage and then the tribe or court later found out, ICWA allows the decisions to be overturned regardless of the situation that has occurred. If ICWA had been followed from the beginning this child may have never been placed in the first home. ICWA placement preferences are in simple terms: (in this preference order) kinship(relative) home, home of same tribal affiliation, other native American home.

From my standpoint they have a serious problem with the attorney who handled this adoption for not researching the heritage. By looking at the child, one might observe that there is a possibility of native ancestry.

Cases such as this are judged on facts and law, not emotions, as sad as that is!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
watchpeppydoc
Posted 2008-12-22 8:13 PM (#3592142 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



Banjo and Baby

Posts: 5540
500050025
Location: South of Canada and North of Mexico
Douglas J Gordon - 2008-12-22 7:59 PM I will jump in to this topic. I am part Spokane Indian from Washington State and my wife is full Navajo so we have watched this law screw up hopefull adopting families several times. The Native American adoption law treats indian kids as natural resources which I understand but what p...... me off is that the long arm of the reservation law can reach out to indians that don't live on the reservation. The way I understood the law was if a woman lived off the reservation she could put a baby up for adoption by state law but if she was on the reservation she could only adopt out to only an indian family. Years ago there was a navjo boy adopted off the Navajo Reservation and the Tribal family got him back but they shared time. He lived in Utah with the adoted family and then went back to the reservation. So basically he went back infortth. We donated money trying to help the adopting family with fund raisers. I don't know what happened to the boy. The boy in question Talon from what I understand is not eligible to be registered to his mom's tribe because he is less than 1/4 Indian; how can he be property or a natural resource? 

You hit it on the head! Thank you, perhaps I didnt make myself fully understood, yes this baby is only 3/16 Indian, according to the tribal laws, the child in question or person must be 1/4 (4/16) Indian to be a member of hte tribe, they bent their own laws for this boy only to put him into fostercare instead of the home he was living in. This birthmother also lost all her children (6 I think) during the last 6 months because of hte drugs she was on and being unfit. This baby was born on Methadone. What does that say about this baby's life allready??? I am surrounded by 4 Indian Reservations East, West South and North.... The school shooting that happened what 3 years ago was in Redlake Indian Res which is 27 miles north of here, Leach Lake where this boy is from is 10 miles East of me. I know how life can be here on the rez and I feel for this poor baby!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
2burkeboys
Posted 2008-12-22 8:45 PM (#3592242 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



Golden Heart

Posts: 2755
20005001001002525
Location: SD		I work with children and families on a reservation. Day after day, I see mothers give birth and then give their kids away. Maybe 1% of those kids get adopted by family members. Most of the time the family that takes the kids in is as messed up as the parents that gave them away. ICWA prevents capable people from adopting children who desperately need homes.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
rodeomama
Posted 2008-12-22 10:01 PM (#3592485 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 374
1001001002525
It's really sad, I live about 5 miles from this family. They truly love this baby and so do their other children. It just really stinks when a child is put in a good home like this and is truly wanted and loved, that this type of thing could happen. This makes any type of adoption so scary for people and there are so many children that need families.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Farrierlady
Posted 2008-12-22 11:10 PM (#3592660 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



Deal With It

500050001001001001002525
Location: Alabama		There were some complaints over some comments that were made on this thread.

I have cleaned it up so the thread can stay on the board.

Please keep the comments civil.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Douglas J Gordon
Posted 2008-12-23 3:30 PM (#3594495 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



BHW's Lance Armstrong

Posts: 2063
20002525
Location: Somewhere between S@%&# stirrer and Saint		I just read through the Indian Child Welfare Act.

The Judge in Utah is a Moron. He only saw one side of the federal law at adopting Indian kids.

There are some interesting variables in this case.
When did the birthmom move to Utah?
How long did she live in Utah before delivering?
Birth Mom approached an adoption agency months before giving birth.
If the mom moved to Utah then she was no longer a resident in Minnesota on the reservation.

The law applies to Indian Babies born reservations.
The baby has to be eligible to be registered to the tribe. the baby Talon is not the 1/4 Ojiwe Indian needed to be registered. The birth mom is registered indian.

The question about the whole story is where is the residency of the birth mom at the time of delivery. If she doesn't live on the reservation the federal law doesn't apply. STate Law applies

However it does say papers have to be signed 10 days after the birth.

How is regular adoption take place in signing any one know?

Top of the page Bottom of the page
azsun
Posted 2008-12-23 4:09 PM (#3594643 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!


Elite Veteran

Posts: 1087
1000252525
The child need not be born or reside on the reservation for ICWA to apply. The law states the child is either a member or "may be" eligible for membership.

ICWA is federal law and is applicable to the states.

ETA: Even if the mom was not on the reservation and did not reside on the reservation, the mere act of moving to Utah would not make ICWA inapplicable. Usually, before a state can be considered the "home state" of a child for the purposes of exercising jurisdiction, the child has to have resided there for usually 6 months. So if mom moved to Utah a few months before delivering, Minnesota may have still had jurisdiction. That's federal law that is normally adopted by the states ... this is also why you can't move out of state with your kid without the court's permission in cases where custody is decided by the court and the parents cannot agree on their own. It prevents forum shopping and prevents a non-custodial parent from moving to another state and filing for and getting custody in the second state that conflicts with the custody orders from the original state.

Edited by azsun 2008-12-23 4:16 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Douglas J Gordon
Posted 2008-12-23 4:32 PM (#3594690 - in reply to #3594643)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



BHW's Lance Armstrong

Posts: 2063
20002525
Location: Somewhere between S@%&# stirrer and Saint
azsun - 2008-12-23 4:09 PM

The child need not be born or reside on the reservation for ICWA to apply. The law states the child is either a member or "may be" eligible for membership.

ICWA is federal law and is applicable to the states.

ETA: Even if the mom was not on the reservation and did not reside on the reservation, the mere act of moving to Utah would not make ICWA inapplicable. Usually, before a state can be considered the "home state" of a child for the purposes of exercising jurisdiction, the child has to have resided there for usually 6 months. So if mom moved to Utah a few months before delivering, Minnesota may have still had jurisdiction. That's federal law that is normally adopted by the states ... this is also why you can't move out of state with your kid without the court's permission in cases where custody is decided by the court and the parents cannot agree on their own. It prevents forum shopping and prevents a non-custodial parent from moving to another state and filing for and getting custody in the second state that conflicts with the custody orders from the original state.

The law states the child is either a member or "may be" eligible for membership and " the parent needs to be registered. The Baby Talon is only 3/16 Ojibiwe and is not elegible to be registered but the mom was registered. However read below on the law and you will see if the child lives off the reservation state laws have juridiction but must follow a fee guide lines if the adoption was "involuntarty". In this case it was not involuntary because the birth mom approach an adoption agency months before birth. We still haven't heard how long the mom lived in Utah before giving birth. If she lived in Utah 6 months or more before birth State law would apply.


Top of the page Bottom of the page
Douglas J Gordon
Posted 2008-12-23 4:34 PM (#3594692 - in reply to #3589451)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!



BHW's Lance Armstrong

Posts: 2063
20002525
Location: Somewhere between S@%&# stirrer and Saint		Yes Federal Law is higher than state law but all the prerequisites must apply for the federal law to be in affect.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
SC Wrangler
Posted 2008-12-23 4:37 PM (#3594701 - in reply to #3594495)
Subject: RE: Baby Talon needs your help!! National News- Indian Adoption gone wrong!


Expert

Posts: 3996
20001000500100100100100252525
Location: Tulsa, Ok
Douglas J Gordon - 2008-12-23 3:30 PM I just read through the Indian Child Welfare Act. The Judge in Utah is a Moron. He only saw one side of the federal law at adopting Indian kids. There are some interesting variables in this case. When did the birthmom move to Utah? How long did she live in Utah before delivering? Birth Mom approached an adoption agency months before giving birth. If the mom moved to Utah then she was no longer a resident in Minnesota on the reservation. The law applies to Indian Babies born reservations. The baby has to be eligible to be registered to the tribe. the baby Talon is not the 1/4 Ojiwe Indian needed to be registered. The birth mom is registered indian. The question about the whole story is where is the residency of the birth mom at the time of delivery. If she doesn't live on the reservation the federal law doesn't apply. STate Law applies However it does say papers have to be signed 10 days after the birth. How is regular adoption take place in signing any one know?



So you read thru brings you to better understanding that of many attorneys, tribes, welfare workers and judges across the United States that deal with this issue on a daily basis?

Just a couple of minutes of reading thru lead me to the understanding that ICWA suspersedes state welfare laws regardless of the local of the child. 
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1 2 3 4 5
Now viewing page 1 [20 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread
Message format
 
View previous thread :: View next thread


Registered to: Barrel Horse World
(Delete all cookies set by this site)
Running MegaBBS ASP Forum Software
© 2002-2009 PD9 Software