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Rancher VS. Government
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Fairweather
Reg. Jan 2004
Posted 2014-04-13 10:49 AM (#6975373 - in reply to #6975155)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government


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Nevertooold - 2014-04-12 4:24 PM The Bureau of Land Management announced Saturday that it has concluded its mission to remove illegal cattle from a rural Nevada range after a tense week-long standoff with a rancher and militia supporters.

"Based on information about conditions on the ground, and in consultation with law enforcement, we have made a decision to conclude the cattle gather because of our serious concern about the safety of employees and members of the public," the statement read.



 


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Bureau officials had dismantled designated protest areas supporting rancher Cliven Bundy, who they say refuses to comply with the "same laws that 16,000 public land ranchers do every year."

"After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially," the statement said. "We ask that all parties in the area remain peaceful and law-abiding as the Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service work to end the operation in an orderly manner."

A group of about 1,000 supporting Bundy cheered and sang "The Star Spangled Banner" when BLM made its announcement.

The standoff at the ranch, some 80 miles north of Las Vegas, became an increasingly tense issue the longer it lasted, prompting elected officials in several states to weigh in, militia members to mobilize and federal land managers to reshape elements of the operation. 

The roundup started last Saturday after the BLM and National Park Service shut down an area half the size of Delaware to let cowhands using helicopters and vehicles gather about 900 cattle that officials say are trespassing.

Bundy, 67, and his large family cast their resistance to the roundup as a constitutional stand. He says he doesn't recognize federal authority over state land.

The dispute that triggered the roundup dates to 1993, when the BLM cited concern for the federally protected tortoise. The agency later revoked Bundy's grazing rights.

Bundy claimed ancestral rights to graze his cattle on lands his Mormon family settled in the 19th century. He stopped paying grazing fees and disregarded several court orders to remove his animals.

BLM officials, however, say Bundy owes more than $1.1 million in unpaid grazing fees. 

BLM faced criticism when police used stun guns on one of Bundy's adult sons during a Wednesday confrontation on a state highway near the Bundy melon farm in the Gold Butte area. 

Video of that confrontation spread on the Internet, along with blog commentary claiming excessive government force and calls to arms from self-described militia leaders. Some have invoked references to deadly confrontations with federal authorities, including a siege of a ranch home in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in 1992 and the fiery destruction of a religious compound near Waco, Texas, that killed 76 people in 1993.

"Our mission here is to protect the protestors and the American citizens from the violence that the federal government is dishing out,” Jim Landy, a member of the West Mountain Rangers, who made the journey from Montana to Nevada, told Fox News Channel. “People here are scared."

Arizona state Rep. Bob Thorpe of Flagstaff said he and state legislators weren't arguing whether Bundy broke laws or violated grazing agreements. Thorpe said the Arizona lawmakers were upset the BLM initially restricted protesters to so-called free speech zones.

Sen. Dean Heller and Gov. Brian Sandoval, both Republicans, have also said they were upset with the way the BLM was conducting the roundup. After the areas were removed Thursday, Sandoval issued a new statement.

"Although tensions remain high, escalation of current events could have negative, long lasting consequences that can be avoided," it said.

Amy Lueders, BLM state director in Nevada, said Friday that two protesters were detained, cited for failure to comply with officers at a barricade on Thursday and released.

That brought the number of arrests to three. Bundy's son, Dave Bundy, was arrested Sunday on State Route 170 and released Monday with citations accusing him of refusing to disperse and resisting arrest.

Lueders said 380 cows were collected by Thursday. She declined to provide a cost estimate for the herding operation. 


I guess the government realized what "cowboy up" is all about and you don't mess with a bunch of cowboys????
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CJE
Reg. Mar 2005
Posted 2014-04-13 11:17 AM (#6975380 - in reply to #6972791)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government



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 Just a simple question?

So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?

Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees?
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musikmaker
Reg. Sep 2004
Posted 2014-04-13 11:22 AM (#6975381 - in reply to #6972791)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government



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Posts: 4555
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This man knows what he's talking about, he's proved it.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FAuJr-UQyk&hd=1

 
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musikmaker
Reg. Sep 2004
Posted 2014-04-13 11:28 AM (#6975383 - in reply to #6975380)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government



Nicknameless


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CJE - 2014-04-13 10:17 AM  Just a simple question?



So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?



Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees?

Simple?  Lol...
They wouldn't accept his money becasue they wanted his cows off the land...they'd previously 'bought out' the other 52 ranchers after they made the tortoise 'endangered', then ended up euthanizing 1,000's of them (the tortoise..so far!), come to find out Harry Reid's son is a lobbyist for a huge Chinese owned company who are planning a $5 billion solar plant there & they demanded the Bundy's and his cattle be re-moved.
At least this is what I'm gathering to date...note the White House is very quiet, yet, the orders come from that direction.

 
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Bibliafarm
Reg. Jul 2008
Posted 2014-04-13 11:32 AM (#6975384 - in reply to #6975383)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government


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musikmaker - 2014-04-13 12:28 PM

CJE - 2014-04-13 10:17 AM  Just a simple question?



So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?



Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees?

Simple?  Lol...
They wouldn't accept his money becasue they wanted his cows off the land...they'd previously 'bought out' the other 52 ranchers after they made the tortoise 'endangered', then ended up euthanizing 1,000's of them (the tortoise..so far!), come to find out Harry Reid's son is a lobbyist for a huge Chinese owned company who are planning a $5 billion solar plant there & they demanded the Bundy's and his cattle be re-moved.
At least this is what I'm gathering to date...note the White House is very quiet, yet, the orders come from that direction.

 

 do you have a legal statement showing this?.so many facts out there contradicting itself.
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Three 4 Luck
Reg. Sep 2003
Posted 2014-04-13 11:57 AM (#6975390 - in reply to #6975383)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government



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musikmaker - 2014-04-13 11:28 AM
CJE - 2014-04-13 10:17 AM  Just a simple question?



So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?



Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees?
Simple?  Lol...

They wouldn't accept his money becasue they wanted his cows off the land...they'd previously 'bought out' the other 52 ranchers after they made the tortoise 'endangered', then ended up euthanizing 1,000's of them (the tortoise..so far!), come to find out Harry Reid's son is a lobbyist for a huge Chinese owned company who are planning a $5 billion solar plant there & they demanded the Bundy's and his cattle be re-moved.

At least this is what I'm gathering to date...note the White House is very quiet, yet, the orders come from that direction.


 

From reading everything I can find, I am left with the understanding that the BLM, in representing the federal government, was attempting to regulate ranchers off certain lands so they could be used for other purposes.  The EPA is working on doing the same thing to row crops farmers. chipping away a little at a time, making proposals, backing away, making less drastic proposals that seem like a relief in contrast to what they first wanted to do.  I wish I could say this shocks me, but it doesn't.  When Al Gore was running for president in 2000, he made a statement in one of his speeches that it was his belief that agriculture should be shifted to 3rd world countries where production costs were lower.  I wish I could find the exact quote, but I remember my daddy being upset and saying he would vote for Gore over his dead body.
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foundation horse
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2014-04-13 12:04 PM (#6975392 - in reply to #6972791)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government


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Qualifier: I am fairly component @ Research and also possess some Critical Thinking Skills.

The BLM falls under Ultimate White House Authority. And Harry Reid dirty finger prints is all over this event. I had the thought Friday (before Saturday's Harry Reid reported involvement) that Energy Production was behind this shindig. Then Saturday Word surfaces connecting The Reid to Energy Production (Solar Panels) to China and Nevada's Desert. There is also documentation to prove that The Bundy Controlled Area was not the first Choice. Down by Laughlin Nevada was the First Choice from years ago. It is across the River from Bullhead City Az.
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musikmaker
Reg. Sep 2004
Posted 2014-04-13 12:05 PM (#6975393 - in reply to #6975384)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government



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Bibliafarm - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM
musikmaker - 2014-04-13 12:28 PM
CJE - 2014-04-13 10:17 AM  Just a simple question?



So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?



Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees?
Simple?  Lol...

They wouldn't accept his money becasue they wanted his cows off the land...they'd previously 'bought out' the other 52 ranchers after they made the tortoise 'endangered', then ended up euthanizing 1,000's of them (the tortoise..so far!), come to find out Harry Reid's son is a lobbyist for a huge Chinese owned company who are planning a $5 billion solar plant there & they demanded the Bundy's and his cattle be re-moved.

At least this is what I'm gathering to date...note the White House is very quiet, yet, the orders come from that direction.


 
 do you have a legal statement showing this?.so many facts out there contradicting itself.

No, I'm sorry I'm not privvy to that directly, however, I'd think if someone wanted to dig they could find the various court orders/decisions (by federal judges who are appointed).  I'm certain that the few journalists who are covering this are digging, too.  There's quite a lot of info & links on this thread along with google searches where you can do your own investigating!
I haven't seen any 'contradictions' so much as af time-line of the above summary.

 
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musikmaker
Reg. Sep 2004
Posted 2014-04-13 12:06 PM (#6975395 - in reply to #6975392)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government



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foundation horse - 2014-04-13 11:04 AM Qualifier: I am fairly component @ Research and also possess some Critical Thinking Skills. The BLM falls under Ultimate White House Authority. And Harry Reid dirty finger prints is all over this event. I had the thought Friday (before Saturday's Harry Reid reported involvement) that Energy Production was behind this shindig. Then Saturday Word surfaces connecting The Reid to Energy Production (Solar Panels) to China and Nevada's Desert. There is also documentation to prove that The Bundy Controlled Area was not the first Choice. Down by Laughlin Nevada was the First Choice from years ago. It is across the River from Bullhead City Az.

Here's a 2012 news article concernig this, WITH Reid achnowledging his son's involvement:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831
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foundation horse
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2014-04-13 12:11 PM (#6975397 - in reply to #6975381)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government


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musikmaker - 2014-04-13 11:22 AM

This man knows what he's talking about, he's proved it.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FAuJr-UQyk&hd=1

 

I'll watch it later.
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jbhoot
Reg. Jan 2010
Posted 2014-04-13 12:13 PM (#6975398 - in reply to #6975372)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government



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Bibliafarm - 2014-04-13 10:44 AM

Id like to hear some responses to finneys thread .  because although I think we need to stand up to the government.. I agree with her about why can he not pay and others are paying..... entitlement why

Bundy has never refused to pay. The question is whom to pay it to. To me this is a much bigger issue about State rights verses a federal agency's over reach of their authority. What court gave the BLM the right to act as law enforcement and enforce the Federal courts will. Why was there no US marshals there? It has been stated that this is state land and only managed by the BLM if this is true(which believe it is) why is a Federal Court even involved in this? Why as soon as the county sheriff got involved( the only illegal law enforcement) the BLM backed down. To me this should have been a state and county issue. Bundy tried to pay the county they refused the payment. It seems like a lot of people are assuming that the BLM has the authority to enforce a Federal Court order it does not under the Constitution I read. A US marshal could but not the BLM.
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foundation horse
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2014-04-13 12:18 PM (#6975401 - in reply to #6975398)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government


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jbhoot - 2014-04-13 12:13 PM

Bibliafarm - 2014-04-13 10:44 AM

Id like to hear some responses to finneys thread .  because although I think we need to stand up to the government.. I agree with her about why can he not pay and others are paying..... entitlement why

Bundy has never refused to pay. The question is whom to pay it to. To me this is a much bigger issue about State rights verses a federal agency's over reach of their authority. What court gave the BLM the right to act as law enforcement and enforce the Federal courts will. Why was there no US marshals there? It has been stated that this is state land and only managed by the BLM if this is true(which believe it is) why is a Federal Court even involved in this? Why as soon as the county sheriff got involved( the only illegal law enforcement) the BLM backed down. To me this should have been a state and county issue. Bundy tried to pay the county they refused the payment. It seems like a lot of people are assuming that the BLM has the authority to enforce a Federal Court order it does not under the Constitution I read. A US marshal could but not the BLM.

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foundation horse
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2014-04-13 12:19 PM (#6975403 - in reply to #6975380)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government


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CJE - 2014-04-13 11:17 AM

 Just a simple question?

So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?

Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees?

Neither. Tortoise(s) and grazing fees have been used as props to close down ranching for other uses.
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dhdqhllc
Reg. Feb 2011
Posted 2014-04-13 12:47 PM (#6975420 - in reply to #6975365)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government



Always Off Topic


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bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM  i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........?????
He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing.
 so before 1993, how many acres was he using?????
 I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's.

 so based on that, he's been getting away with way over grazing his allotment for one and grazing way more than his allotted acres....?????
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bscanchaser
Reg. Feb 2005
Posted 2014-04-13 12:51 PM (#6975424 - in reply to #6975420)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government




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dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 12:47 PM

bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM  i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........?????
He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing.
 so before 1993, how many acres was he using?????
 I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's.

 so based on that, he's been getting away with way over grazing his allotment for one and grazing way more than his allotted acres....?????

Yes
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GoGaited
Reg. May 2013
Posted 2014-04-13 12:55 PM (#6975427 - in reply to #6975380)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government



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CJE - 2014-04-13 11:17 AM  Just a simple question?



So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?



Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees?

Does the fact he is the last rancher in Clark County tell you what you need to know?  It's about CONTROL.  Of the land, the water, the air, the food and the people. 
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dhdqhllc
Reg. Feb 2011
Posted 2014-04-13 1:06 PM (#6975440 - in reply to #6975424)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government



Always Off Topic


Posts: 6382
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bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 12:51 PM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 12:47 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM  i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........?????
He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing.
 so before 1993, how many acres was he using?????
 I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's.
 so based on that, he's been getting away with way over grazing his allotment for one and grazing way more than his allotted acres....?????
Yes

 nobody really cares about that though
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Three 4 Luck
Reg. Sep 2003
Posted 2014-04-13 1:11 PM (#6975446 - in reply to #6975440)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government



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dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 1:06 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 12:51 PM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 12:47 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM  i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........?????
He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing.
 so before 1993, how many acres was he using?????
 I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's.
 so based on that, he's been getting away with way over grazing his allotment for one and grazing way more than his allotted acres....?????
Yes
 nobody really cares about that though

 Who set the allotment and why?  
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musikmaker
Reg. Sep 2004
Posted 2014-04-13 1:13 PM (#6975449 - in reply to #6975440)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government



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dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 12:06 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 12:51 PM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 12:47 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM  i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........?????
He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing.
 so before 1993, how many acres was he using?????
 I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's.
 so based on that, he's been getting away with way over grazing his allotment for one and grazing way more than his allotted acres....?????
Yes
 nobody really cares about that though

??? RFC.
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foundation horse
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2014-04-13 1:15 PM (#6975450 - in reply to #6975420)
Subject: RE: Rancher VS. Government


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Location: North Texas
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 12:47 PM

bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM  i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........?????
He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing.
 so before 1993, how many acres was he using?????
 I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's.

 so based on that, he's been getting away with way over grazing his allotment for one and grazing way more than his allotted acres....?????

On Whose Authority are these regulations established?
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