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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
  
| Two Boots - 2015-01-10 12:33 PM
If you have had a horse x-rayed and they show hock joint to be bone on bone, with spurs, can they be injected and will it help with lameness?
To some degree it will help.
It all depends on the bone spurs and if they are catching the tendons and ligaments.
I had one with bone spurs we fused his hocks via surgical laser fusion and lasered the spurs off. The horse came back sound and stronger then ever. | |
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 Go For It!
 
Location: Texas |
I'm quite sure that there are many folks that disagree with my philosophy on injections, that is why so many horses get injected, lol. I can only tell you what my experience has led me to believe, and it is this... There is so much more to it than what follows, but I will try to touch on some it... Inflammation is a problem that can be associated with diet, injuries, overwork etc. in horses and in people. Processed foods and additives can cause inflammation in joints, behavior issues, stomach problems, etc... the list is a long one. When we inject to reduce inflammation we are not correcting any of the issues that caused the inflammation in the first place, instead, if we use a cortisone or steroid drug, we are simply masking any underlying problem and can in fact be causing additional damage to the area with repeated injections. "Cortisone shots are an anti-inflammatory agent, but many joint and tendon injuries are actually degenerative in nature. So while you may temporarily reduce the symptoms, you’re not getting the real healing needed to correct the problem. And you might compound the problem in the long run."
Think of it in terms of football... Because these guys want to play and the coaches want them to play, they band-aid lots of things that really just need some time and some rehab to heal. We tend to do our horses the same way sometimes. We don't have time to give them that much needed break, we don't have the time or the knowledge it takes to get them fit to play, we want to go next weekend to that barrel race and so we want the vet to FIX IT NOW. "He's limping", well give him some time off and rehab it.
I am certainly not so naive to think that I am going to change everyone's mind about injecting, because that just isn't going to happen. I can say that I have been on both sides of the fence and after a lifetime of being involved with horses these are the things that I have discovered for my own program. I have and have had some pretty nice horses that have done well and I do not inject. I'm certainly not going to say that I haven't been tempted a few times, but I have learned that it is better to have a little patience and really fix the problem on a more permanent basis instead of looking for that temporary fix.
To the original poster... I would be patient and start with your horses belly. Give him some time off and figure this out, in the long term you will be very glad you did.
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | Bunny-hopping in the back end is my indicator.
Although I've always wondered about his SI. He's fallen on his side a couple of times and I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to get that looked at....
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| grinandbareit - 2015-01-10 12:43 PM
I'm quite sure that there are many folks that disagree with my philosophy on injections, that is why so many horses get injected, lol. I can only tell you what my experience has led me to believe, and it is this... There is so much more to it than what follows, but I will try to touch on some it... Inflammation is a problem that can be associated with diet, injuries, overwork etc. in horses and in people. Processed foods and additives can cause inflammation in joints, behavior issues, stomach problems, etc... the list is a long one. When we inject to reduce inflammation we are not correcting any of the issues that caused the inflammation in the first place, instead, if we use a cortisone or steroid drug, we are simply masking any underlying problem and can in fact be causing additional damage to the area with repeated injections. "Cortisone shots are an anti-inflammatory agent, but many joint and tendon injuries are actually degenerative in nature. So while you may temporarily reduce the symptoms, you’re not getting the real healing needed to correct the problem. And you might compound the problem in the long run."
Think of it in terms of football... Because these guys want to play and the coaches want them to play, they band-aid lots of things that really just need some time and some rehab to heal. We tend to do our horses the same way sometimes. We don't have time to give them that much needed break, we don't have the time or the knowledge it takes to get them fit to play, we want to go next weekend to that barrel race and so we want the vet to FIX IT NOW. "He's limping", well give him some time off and rehab it.
I am certainly not so naive to think that I am going to change everyone's mind about injecting, because that just isn't going to happen. I can say that I have been on both sides of the fence and after a lifetime of being involved with horses these are the things that I have discovered for my own program. I have and have had some pretty nice horses that have done well and I do not inject. I'm certainly not going to say that I haven't been tempted a few times, but I have learned that it is better to have a little patience and really fix the problem on a more permanent basis instead of looking for that temporary fix.
To the original poster... I would be patient and start with your horses belly. Give him some time off and figure this out, in the long term you will be very glad you did.
Cortisone should never be given in a high motion joint, vets still using it are practicing in the stone ages. Problem is cortisone is dirt cheap costs 40cents therefore vets make the most profit from injecting cortisone. Cortisone has also been shown to damage the cartilage even after it has been metabolized in the body.
There are much better things to inject into joints.
My vet won't inject cortisone into anything, he doesn't even carry it.
I do hear what you are saying, but a competent vet should not be injecting anything till finding the root of the problem. If any horse owner allows that, then they are stupid.
When it comes to dealing with joints there are a few reasons to inject, when the X-ray shows bone on bone, that is the root cause of the pain, surgery, injection of HA, IRAP, PRP, or stem cell are the only way to go. (Surgery can only be one in a low motion pastern joint, and low motion hock joint.
The other reason to inject a joint is preventative. My example is I had a horse broke the splint behind the knee. The motion of the splint causes irritation of the joint. We treated the splint with bone marrow to speed up healing and during the healing process the knee was injected a few times to eliminate the inflammatory process which if left untreated would cause arthritis in the joint which due to it being a knee would eventually be a career ender.
I am a firm believe in a lamness exam prior to injecting to ensure the diagnosis of the root cause. This in itself would eliminate unnecessary injections.
Also as a horse owner, I do ask my vet the risk versus benefit and other forms of treatment, and the quality of life of the animal. I encourage all horse owners to do the same | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 302
Location: W. Pa. | So what you are saying is inflammation can actually cause the arthritis. Not necessarily the original injury? Treating the original injury with anti inflamatories can stop or reduce the risk of arthritis? Injecting would reduce inflammation?
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5416
| grinandbareit - 2015-01-10 7:12 AM Let me play devils advocate here... if you have your horse on a good joint program, a clean feed and good exercise routine, then the chances of them needing injections become less common. If you have a horse that is getting sore then there are other things I tend to think about first, like soft tissue/muscle soreness... inflammation, in a joint or anywhere else, is simply a symptom of something more... will an injection help to remove inflammation? Absolutely, but it doesn't address the underlying problem, which is why we have to repeat them. I could write a book on the topic, but I will spare everyone, lol... Just something to think about.
I completly agree with this! And lots of horses that we think need hock injections merely need a C7-T1 adjustment- | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5416
| cheryl makofka - 2015-01-10 1:09 PM grinandbareit - 2015-01-10 12:43 PM I'm quite sure that there are many folks that disagree with my philosophy on injections, that is why so many horses get injected, lol. I can only tell you what my experience has led me to believe, and it is this... There is so much more to it than what follows, but I will try to touch on some it... Inflammation is a problem that can be associated with diet, injuries, overwork etc. in horses and in people. Processed foods and additives can cause inflammation in joints, behavior issues, stomach problems, etc... the list is a long one. When we inject to reduce inflammation we are not correcting any of the issues that caused the inflammation in the first place, instead, if we use a cortisone or steroid drug, we are simply masking any underlying problem and can in fact be causing additional damage to the area with repeated injections. "Cortisone shots are an anti-inflammatory agent, but many joint and tendon injuries are actually degenerative in nature. So while you may temporarily reduce the symptoms, you’re not getting the real healing needed to correct the problem. And you might compound the problem in the long run." Think of it in terms of football... Because these guys want to play and the coaches want them to play, they band-aid lots of things that really just need some time and some rehab to heal. We tend to do our horses the same way sometimes. We don't have time to give them that much needed break, we don't have the time or the knowledge it takes to get them fit to play, we want to go next weekend to that barrel race and so we want the vet to FIX IT NOW. "He's limping", well give him some time off and rehab it. I am certainly not so naive to think that I am going to change everyone's mind about injecting, because that just isn't going to happen. I can say that I have been on both sides of the fence and after a lifetime of being involved with horses these are the things that I have discovered for my own program. I have and have had some pretty nice horses that have done well and I do not inject. I'm certainly not going to say that I haven't been tempted a few times, but I have learned that it is better to have a little patience and really fix the problem on a more permanent basis instead of looking for that temporary fix. To the original poster... I would be patient and start with your horses belly. Give him some time off and figure this out, in the long term you will be very glad you did. Cortisone should never be given in a high motion joint, vets still using it are practicing in the stone ages. Problem is cortisone is dirt cheap costs 40cents therefore vets make the most profit from injecting cortisone. Cortisone has also been shown to damage the cartilage even after it has been metabolized in the body. There are much better things to inject into joints. My vet won't inject cortisone into anything, he doesn't even carry it. I do hear what you are saying, but a competent vet should not be injecting anything till finding the root of the problem. If any horse owner allows that, then they are stupid. When it comes to dealing with joints there are a few reasons to inject, when the X-ray shows bone on bone, that is the root cause of the pain, surgery, injection of HA, IRAP, PRP, or stem cell are the only way to go. (Surgery can only be one in a low motion pastern joint, and low motion hock joint. The other reason to inject a joint is preventative. My example is I had a horse broke the splint behind the knee. The motion of the splint causes irritation of the joint. We treated the splint with bone marrow to speed up healing and during the healing process the knee was injected a few times to eliminate the inflammatory process which if left untreated would cause arthritis in the joint which due to it being a knee would eventually be a career ender. I am a firm believe in a lamness exam prior to injecting to ensure the diagnosis of the root cause. This in itself would eliminate unnecessary injections. Also as a horse owner, I do ask my vet the risk versus benefit and other forms of treatment, and the quality of life of the animal. I encourage all horse owners to do the same
In reference to the broken splint bone- I would do nothing to heal that up- nature is fully prepared to handle that scenario all on it's own. To spend money to get past it, to me, is just a waste of money. I'd just wrap it in mud and keep it cool with cold water therapy.
Edited by trickster j 2015-01-11 9:17 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 682
Location: Northwest | trickster j - 2015-01-10 8:43 PM
grinandbareit - 2015-01-10 7:12 AM Let me play devils advocate here... if you have your horse on a good joint program, a clean feed and good exercise routine, then the chances of them needing injections become less common. If you have a horse that is getting sore then there are other things I tend to think about first, like soft tissue/muscle soreness... inflammation, in a joint or anywhere else, is simply a symptom of something more... will an injection help to remove inflammation? Absolutely, but it doesn't address the underlying problem, which is why we have to repeat them. I could write a book on the topic, but I will spare everyone, lol... Just something to think about.
I completly agree with this! And lots of horses that we think need hock injections merely need a C7-T1 adjustment-
I think there is a time and a place for injections (and yes, I have had some that needed injections and got them) BUT I had an experience last year that opened my eyes a little too. I purchased a horse from a friend (had been used very lightly and only to gather cows up in the mountains etc). I had her looked at by a VERY reputable lameness vet and the vet told me her hocks were needing injected. I held off because for some reason my gut said that just wasn't the issue. So I called a reputable equine chiropractor, had the mare adjusted and her hind end was severely out. Two adjustments later, the horse is moving and working perfectly-no injections needed!! From now on I will start with chiropractor and then go to vet when any of mine don't seem to be working quite right. | |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | Itsme - 2015-01-10 8:48 AM
Were at a loss right now and im basically grasping at this point.
We bought this horse last year that showed TONS of potential but now he seems dull and a shell of what he was. 
Just my 2 cents...treat him for EPM. It's not going to hurt him, and if it helps, you don't need to spend the money on other stuff. It's becoming an epidemic and that protozoa that causes it is everywhere. I figure 20 years ago, there was some pesticide that killed it and EPA has now banned it, and the protozoa is overgrowing now. But it will certainly cause them to look like a dull shell of their former selves. If you're grasping at straws, I'd sure try that first, because it causes a lot of symptoms that mimic other "unsoundnesses". It also causes behavior changes....and the stress of changing environments or going into training or going to big shows causes it to really show up. JMO | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| dianeguinn - 2015-01-11 11:46 AM
Itsme - 2015-01-10 8:48 AM
Were at a loss right now and im basically grasping at this point.
We bought this horse last year that showed TONS of potential but now he seems dull and a shell of what he was.
Just my 2 cents...treat him for EPM. It's not going to hurt him, and if it helps, you don't need to spend the money on other stuff. It's becoming an epidemic and that protozoa that causes it is everywhere. I figure 20 years ago, there was some pesticide that killed it and EPA has now banned it, and the protozoa is overgrowing now. But it will certainly cause them to look like a dull shell of their former selves. If you're grasping at straws, I'd sure try that first, because it causes a lot of symptoms that mimic other "unsoundnesses". It also causes behavior changes....and the stress of changing environments or going into training or going to big shows causes it to really show up. JMO
How do you suggest treating one for EPM?
Should I get him tested first?
Were making a list of things to talk over with the vet on weds. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| What will a hair analysis show? | |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| The ultra oz ultrasound is great or a laser. | |
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 Crazy Doggy Mommy
Posts: 1415
Location: Where Governor's make the liscense plates | My horse had been injected 3 times in the last year and a half. He went from completely dry joints to now maintaining lubrication in both hocks and bucking and playing much more in the pasture. My horse passed the vet check and showed no signs of lameness- when I started running barrels on him he was fine until he started ducking and flying by 1st barrel. He is finally back to his A game | |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| I agree with diane. I would send blood to dr. Ellerson. year before last my horse would just make a 3/4 run no matter how hard i kicked and whiped and on the second he would take one more step. Also, with that being said hemstarted getting nervous and balkijg at the gate. Butmat home he woukd still stop on he ass, likemdump your ass stop. But if you did not ride him for like 10 days. Saddle,him up and when you lounged him he would buck and jump like a unbroke 2yo. Tyen last year after the winter he just looked bad. When i carried him to vet in march to do a lamness eval that ws planned from thenyear before, we had a late nasty winter enven like some snow i late march.. Well the vet had seen him in august and he was in good,shape. He is a big 16.1 big thick kinda th/cross good looking horse. When he is fit and tacked up he is so handsome, every time i take him to,a hunter type vet they ask me why i barrel race him as he is a beautiful mover. He hits thenground easy. But when i carried him in march vet said hemdoesnot look like he did last summer. he just looked like someone would say wormey, unkept. Thenvet said his hocks where fusing, we did a alcohol block, which kills the nerve and also eats the little bit,of cartiage up that is left. He was moving better the next day, but them i noticed he was up under his self but he was not using his rear and right side was worse. Had to,wait 30 days to ride first day he rode okay next day he baulked going right. So, i change saddles and put my bov marshall on him and rode him mostly to,left did not,let him win. Then started longing with a 50 foot longe rope for another 3 weeks then no better went back,to vet she said stifles where sore injected and i got,her to check teeth had a coupe little hooks did them. Went home wated 5 days he really no better just kept longing went to a big nbha show still no run, felt like he was bunny hoping had that vet look said he was sore in hips. Carried back to my vet once again, she injected his stifles. Then wrote me a note diagnosis sheet saying this horse has severe joint disease and not many runs left in him. In march i did a domplete lamness including ultrasound of suapensories before i fused his hocks. there was a 2 day show less than 50 mile from my house, i had already sent entra forms in so i went, he did not even want to leave the stall he was so, lethgaric like he had veen drugged. I was asking some of my friends about different vets as i spent a fortune, a lady gave me a name said he was good at dignosing stuff. Made an appointment and went he did a nero test he failed. We did u c davis blood test came back neg. I called him for,4 days, he back,peddled about his diagnosis. So,itmwas a weekend, i surfed the web and even found a person who,had been to both vets. Dr. Ellerisons name kept coming up, wen to,the dog vet got red top tube and sent blood work sent to,her and she sent me the med. With in 3or 4 days this horse was lowest on the totem pole to come in kinda had a drugged look. But with in several days his was perky. We about a month latter a friend came by and we where out in pasture and we where looking at him,he looked like i had been riding he was real muscled looking. But i have been working and had a chronic sinus infection he has been in pasture. i also forgot last time he was shod the farrier said he could hardly stand on one side and he was sore on other side too. He is coming next week and i know he will be better. Imthink he is fixed, if he slides back, call dr. Ellerson and for,200.00 and 10 days he will be better. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| Daisycake, what was the diagnosis? | |
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 Living within my means
Posts: 5097
Location: Randolph, Utah | Each horse I've has that needed hock done acted a different way, my old guy would balk at the gate and not sit hard for his turns, one of my mares gets sore in her back, and my young mare quits turning first and crossfires. I would do a lameness exam with a good vet and go from there. Make sure to get X-rays. | |
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