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Good information for anti-vaxxers
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IRunOnFaith
Reg. Dec 2009
Posted 2017-04-24 12:08 PM (#7341590 - in reply to #7341559)
Subject: RE: Good information for anti-vaxxers



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NJJ - 2017-04-24 10:45 AM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-04-24 10:07 AM
NJJ - 2017-04-24 9:27 AM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-04-24 9:05 AM
cheryl makofka - 2017-04-22 2:29 PM
rodeoveteran - 2017-04-22 1:09 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-04-21 3:34 PM
Bear - 2017-04-21 11:59 AM You are like so many others who only have a very rudimentary understanding of the immune system, but where you specifically lack understanding explains, to a large extent, why there's an anti-Vaxx movement. We develop an immune response to a foreign protein. Those foreign proteins are called "antigens". They can be bacteria, viruses, parasites, or any protein that is not native to our bodies. Here's the deal. We are all exposed to thousands of antigens every day in the food we eat, the air we breathe, and things we touch. Vaccines do NOT weaken or overwhelm our immune systems. In fact, they strengthen our immune system by strengthening the immune response to the organism for which the vaccine was intended. Vaccination is very natural. It relies upon an intact natural immune system. One neat thing about our immune system is that a vaccine exposes our immune system to a specific germ or "antigen" and we develop antibodies against that virus or bacteria. The next time you are exposed to the organism, because your immune system remembers it, the secondary response is much more rapid and much more intense......basically whacking it before it gets a foothold. Many times your immune system retains this " memory" for many years, even decades, sometime for your entire life. No.....vaccines do not overwhelm our babies immune system. Their immune systems are exposed to thousands of germs every single day. I'll see if I can find you a good reference on this subject.
Thank you for taking the time to explain Bear. You are very good at "dumbing" things down for people like me. Lol 



I do understand everything you have explained to me. I do. but....I still feel more comfortable giving vaccines seperately and spaced out, rather than multiples at once.

I do feel a bit more educated on the subject tho. Thanks Bear. 


 
But Bear, what you didn't address was her desire to expose her child to one vaccine at a time. How is that unreasonable and uneducated or ignorant? Why is limiting the type of "germs" introduced by vaccines a bad thing? Personally, I think it is a more sensible approach. It gives the immune system an opportunity to identify the invading organism and gives it time to develop antibodies for that specific invader, instead of requiring it to respond to multiple threats at once. And for anyone that might be susceptible to any kind of negative reaction, the possibility of reaction is reduced.
The schedule that CDC recommends is based on years of surveillance and research. Sure if you want to give one vaccine at a time, but there are certain vaccines that if you split them up will not give the individual the maximum immunity. Menincoccal is one example, it provides better immunity when paired with tetanus. Whooping cough does better when paired with tetanus, this is why this vaccine is not offered as an individual vaccine. Also cost is another reason who vaccines are not offered separately, your insurance company, government doesn't want the extra cost to have the vaccine produced individually, even if you pay for it, you are not paying the full cost, vaccines are subsidized so more people can afford it. Also why would you want to split them up? The majority of the anti vaxxers arguement is they don't want all the extras injected into their child. Doing one at a time you will be adding more of the extras into your child over their lifespan. Also if you are doing your own schedule, if you don't follow through with the spacing between vaccines and wait a longer time, you are giving yourself a false sense of security thinking your child is vaccinated. The memory cells will decrease the longer you go without immunizing causing your child to have an increased risk of contracting the disease. Children have a less mature immune system then an adult, and this is why they require more vaccines than an adult starting out. The research has shown that before immunization cause any impact on the immune system, the child has to receive 1000 different vaccines on the same day, therefore the few they do get will not weaken their immune system.
Her pediatrician does not accept insurance. She is cash pay as stated before. 

I pay cash for her visit and pay cash per vaccine. I don't understand how cost has anything to do with it? Insurance companies and governements don't want the cost of anything, but forcing me to pay for a vaccine in a certain form or with certain other vaccines just because it is cheaper for them to produce is not only illegal, it shouldn't matter either way how I pay or how much I pay. Insurance companies cost does not matter to me or my child's health. My child has insurance that I cannot use at her pediatrician's office. That is my choice.  And again, i'm not entirely sure why that matters. I have her insurance for her Rheumatology, ENT, and other specialists she sees for her genetic disorders and auto immune disorders/diseases. If the goverment was hurting because of vaccines I am buying individually then we have a goverment spending issue, not a vaccine issue. I promise you the cost per vaccine would most likely go up if it was a problem. 



My child is not on my own schedule. She is on a schedule her doctor has been using for many years with other children, not just my child. We have consulted for many hours over her schedule.  Her doctor has been in practice for over 30 years. If something was wrong with her schedule of vaccines someone would have filed a case by now. It's 2017. People file cases because their feelings get hurt... Something would have came up by now if it was an issue.

 

 I approached her doctor with a concern and she gave me a schedule to follow. Sometimes, yes we do make changes to the schedule. For instance, if my child has just seen her Rheumetologist, or ENT, or any other of her long list of specialists the same day or day before we reschedule for a day or two later simply because I don't feel the need to put her through another shot or doctor visit. She sees enough needles at her other doctor visits. 



I feel no security what-so-ever in immunizing my child. Vaccines scare me to death. I don't know what exactly is in them. I don't know if she really needs them. But I do trust her doctor. And if her doctor says she is better with them then she is better with them. If her doctor feels comfortable spacing out vaccines like me, then I trust her to space them correctly. She's been to the same classes and years of school any other doctor has. She simply has an outlook of: "You are the parent. You know your child better than me. I work for you. You tell me what exactly your concerns are and I will give you three options with pros and cons of each." And she does. 



Her rheumatologist, ENT, and other specialists at Cook Children's have all seen her vaccine schedule. It gets updated when she gets a new vaccine as well. They have yet to say anything about her vaccine schedule to me. If it was a concern the many doctors she has seen who have asked "Is she up-to-date on vaccines" and then looked at her vaccine record and copy of the schedule she is on would have said something by now if something concerned them. 



Again, what you feel is right for your child is not entirely right, or entirely wrong, for every child. What is right for my child is not right or wrong for any other child. And again, that doesn't make any mother a bad mother for following, or not following the CDC's reccomended schedule. 

 
 I really think you are comparing apples and oranges here....you DO vaccinate your child and have serious concerns because she HAS other health problems. No one would consider you a "bad" mother but one who has taken the time to do research and vaccinate appropriately for her child. That being said, the majority of "anti-vaxers" think that NO vaccines should be given.....EVER ...... I consider those people the ones who are uneducated and are the reasons that these diseases are making a recurrence to the detrimental health of others......
Thank you NJJ. As I've said before, every mother has the right to choose in my eyes. I don't think any mother should be considered a bad mom either way. 

Until one is educated on both ends, unbiased, I don't think one can make an informed decision for their child either way. I lack in the educated department for sure on most things, especially when it comes to medical terminology and specifics, but I have reasearched from biased and unbiased sources on many occasions regarding my child and her health. The hard part is putting your opinions to the side and making a decision based on facts that you find that are backed by research. That may scare you to death, but facts don't lie.

 I think both sides can be argued when making a decision based upon research backed facts. 
You are correct that facts DON'T LIE.......the fact IS that several of these diseases have been erradicated but have now reemerged due to people NOT vaccinating their children.....THAT is the fact they choose to ignore!  Like I said, I am old enough to have seen and known people who were crippled by polio, boys/young men having serious problems with mumps and children dying of measles.



 

 I don't think they were erradicated completely. I think they were still present, the symptoms just weren't showing because of vaccines. I hope that makes sense... Kind of like carrying around strep but not ever showing signs. Then someone with a weakened immune system comes around and bam. They now have strep. Maybe that's a terrible example, and maybe I am wrong. But I don't think they were ever wiped out fully. I think they hung around. 

I had a biology teacher back in highschool that had polio when she was a child. She had braces on her legs and eventually had to have a cane for support during that year. She was put into a wheelchair eventually. She has since passed but I always remember her stories of her childhood. Vividly. I wouldn't wish that upon any child. especially my own. She was raised Menonite and eventually married a Pentocoastal Man. Maybe religion played a role in why she was never vaccinated. I never thought to ask. I have an uncle that also had polio that has since passed. He too had braces on his legs. A girl I grew up with had braces on her legs because of Polio as well. She is now grown with a family of her own. 
I am aware of epidemics and their lasting effects on people and their health. I too know people who have been affected.
 I think anyone with a computer can find facts to support your statement,  NJJ. But I also think that facts to support my statements, that are from non-biased sources could also be found.  
    
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Bear
Reg. Dec 2007
Posted 2017-04-24 2:25 PM (#7341628 - in reply to #7340735)
Subject: RE: Good information for anti-vaxxers



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This remark:

"I don't think they were erradicated completely. I think they were still present, the symptoms just weren't showing because of vaccines. I hope that makes sense.."

No....it doesn't make sense. Just because you find stuff on the Internet, and call it "research" and claim to have sources of information doesn't mean your sources are legitimate. If you make a remark like this from some source you found on the Internet, I suggest you develop a new data base and find new resources. The above comment is just whacked.

Prior to the MMR, we used to see about 500,000 cases of measles per year in the U.S. In 1920, about 8,000 people died from measles.
In recent years, the incidence has ranged between a few hundred to as few as 20 cases per year. From 2002-2015 there was just one death in the U.S. From measles.
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IRunOnFaith
Reg. Dec 2009
Posted 2017-04-24 2:44 PM (#7341637 - in reply to #7341628)
Subject: RE: Good information for anti-vaxxers



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Bear - 2017-04-24 2:25 PM This remark: "I don't think they were erradicated completely. I think they were still present, the symptoms just weren't showing because of vaccines. I hope that makes sense.." No....it doesn't make sense. Just because you find stuff on the Internet, and call it "research" and claim to have sources of information doesn't mean your sources are legitimate. If you make a remark like this from some source you found on the Internet, I suggest you develop a new data base and find new resources. The above comment is just whacked. Prior to the MMR, we used to see about 500,000 cases of measles per year in the U.S. In 1920, about 8,000 people died from measles. In recent years, the incidence has ranged between a few hundred to as few as 20 cases per year. From 2002-2015 there was just one death in the U.S. From measles.
 Bear. I did not make this statement based off anything I found on the internet. This is why I said "I think". I was simply saying that I don't think they went away completely as I had taken NJJ's comment to mean that they had. I was simply agreeing that they were still present and that Vaccines didn't completely wipe them out to nothing. This is why they made a comback when vaccines were not being used as often as they had been. I guess I didn't explain myself very well...  
ETA: I did not mean that the Vaccines didn't work for the ones vaccinated. Research and numbers show that they did. I am not saying those facts are wrong.  Maybe that is what you thought i meant? I agree, that thought process is foolish. I just meant that I would think it still hung around or that people still carried it in their system if they were exposed and those that did not get vaccinated were infected and showed symptoms.That's what I meant by it not getting completely wiped out. Bad use of wordage I guess...  

Edited by IRunOnFaith 2017-04-24 2:58 PM
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lindseylou2290
Reg. Aug 2013
Posted 2017-04-24 2:54 PM (#7341641 - in reply to #7341010)
Subject: RE: Good information for anti-vaxxers



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cheryl makofka - 2017-04-20 6:14 PM

IRunOnFaith - 2017-04-20 4:22 PM

GLP - 2017-04-20 12:12 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-04-20 9:07 AM Oh boy.... I'll just leave this here. "  (b) Unavoidable adverse side effects; warnings
(1) No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, if the injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied by proper directions and warnings. " 





  I had my little one at home to avoid all the Vaccines, Vitamin K shot, and other immune dibilitating shots and formulas all babies recieve in order to cover doctors butts when babies are born... Doctors don't give your baby Vaccines and shots to help them when they are first born. They give them things so that if anything happens to the baby they can say they vaccinated, shot up, etc and exhausted all possible "preventative measures" to ensure your baby was "Healthy".



Sure, I am giving my child some vaccines. My Child's doctor has a very great approach: If anything is wrong she gives you three routes of treatment: traditional, hollistic, and a combination of the two. She's great and I fully trust her judgement. It is my right to choose what my child gets and when she gets it and how exactly it's administered. And you can bet it's not on the same schedule as the Pharm companies. 



For example here is what was given Pre Liability Release and what was given Post Liability Release. Parents have the right to choose. If you feel your child needs a different schedule, make one. If you feel your child needs no Vaccines, don't give them. If you feel your child needs all the vaccines listed, give them.  They aren't mandatory. I don't think it's fair to say what is right for your child is right for everyone's child. 
Good lord, that list is insane! I was always the mom who wouldn't get the vaccines until they set a suspension date at school. My daughter would get high temperatures a day or so after her vaccines, not just 100 degrees but 104. I would call the doctor in a panic at night when they came on, he would tell me to wipe her down with a tepid wash cloth and give her tylenol and by the next morning when he opened his office, she would have no fever. He couldn't explain it, then when she was 6 months old she had a seizure, thankfully not a grand mal, but scarey none the less and had a couple a year thereafter, some were grand mal. Never found out why. This lead me to really space out her vaccines. The doctor agreed with me. I did the same for my son and he never had any problems. I don't know if the vaccines had anything to do with her fevers, but they didn't start until she started her vaccines at 2 months. My kids were vaccinated but only the bare minimum. They were outdoor ranch kids and were always healthier than their classmates. I honestly don't know who to believe. It's hard to trust pharmacy companies, but there is no question the polio and small pox vaccines worked for most people.

 I believe that vaccines have their place. But I don't believe in the schedule most doctors are pushing. 
While looking for a doctor for my little one after she was born, I was told by three different doctors that they refused to see my child. 
The first ask me what hospital she was born at and I replied that she was born at home. The lady got very quiet and replied: "We don't really have an opening for people like you..." And hung up on me. I cried. 2 days post-aprtum I'm sure it was horomones (Or lack there of) but It really made me feel like a bad Mum. 
The second scheduled me for an appointment, even after hearing she was born at home, and when I asked her if they were comfortable with not following the recomended schedule she also got very quiet and said: "Ma'am, either you follow the schedule to a 'T' or we can't help you..."  I canceled the appointment... 
The third laughed at me when I asked about changing the schedule or starting the vaccines later. She laughed and then got quiet and said: "Oh, you're serious?"   I hung up on her... 

I was very fortunate to find my pediatrician. She accepts no insurance and is cash pay only. She takes maybe 20 newborns a year to see through the age of 18. She's refered to as the Hippie Doctor in town. I get laughed at by people for taking her to a "quack". But I truly believe that she has my child's best interest at heart. She isn't afraid to tell me non biased consequences of herbal or hollistic remedies as well as traditional medicine side effects. She is by far the biggest blessing I could have found.   
Texas allows you to exempt yourself or child from all vaccines for any reason. Her first Daycare tried to tell me that I couldn't bring her because she was contagious. People there were truly scared of her. But If your child received the vaccine, wouldn't my child be the only one "sick" if she didn't get a vaccine? I mean, vaccines are "preventative" according to your doctor correct?   lol sorry, just being sarcastic now. Either way, to each their own. No need to judge other moms for believing different things. 

The only problem with your reasoning is not all kids can be vaccinated, and by you sending your unvaccinated child to school increases the risk of a immunocompromised, cancer riddled kid dying of a vaccine preventable disease cause you sent your child to school with a runny nose when in actuality it was a vaccine preventable disease.


Along with your correct thoughts, Bear, don't forget that there are individuals who simply don't react with a vaccine, non-responsive individuals - thus they also rely upon herd immunity and would be exposed during school hours to the above mentioned children.
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cheryl makofka
Reg. Jan 2011
Posted 2017-04-24 3:35 PM (#7341648 - in reply to #7340735)
Subject: RE: Good information for anti-vaxxers


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It will be Interesting to see what happens in the next few years. In Alberta there has already been a court case where the courts found a family guilty of failing to provide the necessities of life for their child. The child was unvaccinated, the family treated with homeopathic remedies, the child died of bacterial meningitis.
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rodeomom3
Reg. Dec 2007
Posted 2017-04-24 3:44 PM (#7341655 - in reply to #7341648)
Subject: RE: Good information for anti-vaxxers



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cheryl makofka - 2017-04-24 3:35 PM It will be Interesting to see what happens in the next few years. In Alberta there has already been a court case where the courts found a family guilty of failing to provide the necessities of life for their child. The child was unvaccinated, the family treated with homeopathic remedies, the child died of bacterial meningitis.

 That goes beyond a fear or caution of  vaccinating.   There are parents in the US who refuse to use doctors and have let their children die from very treatable conditions. 
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IRunOnFaith
Reg. Dec 2009
Posted 2017-04-24 3:49 PM (#7341656 - in reply to #7341655)
Subject: RE: Good information for anti-vaxxers



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rodeomom3 - 2017-04-24 3:44 PM
cheryl makofka - 2017-04-24 3:35 PM It will be Interesting to see what happens in the next few years. In Alberta there has already been a court case where the courts found a family guilty of failing to provide the necessities of life for their child. The child was unvaccinated, the family treated with homeopathic remedies, the child died of bacterial meningitis.
 That goes beyond a fear or caution of  vaccinating.   There are parents in the US who refuse to use doctors and have let their children die from very treatable conditions. 

This is sad, but very true...  
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Bear
Reg. Dec 2007
Posted 2017-04-24 3:50 PM (#7341657 - in reply to #7341648)
Subject: RE: Good information for anti-vaxxers



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cheryl makofka - 2017-04-24 3:35 PM

It will be Interesting to see what happens in the next few years. In Alberta there has already been a court case where the courts found a family guilty of failing to provide the necessities of life for their child. The child was unvaccinated, the family treated with homeopathic remedies, the child died of bacterial meningitis.

I agree. In my opinion, a parent should not be forced to give their kids a vaccine.
I will say that I am in favor of making a certain minimum amount of vaccinations mandatory before a child is allowed into a public school.
Those parents still have two options, should they choose not to vaccinate:
1.) Home school.
2.) find a private school. Maybe the anti-vaxxers can start their own private schools.
In my opinion, if, for some reason, they can't find a private school or home school, they can just stay home. The world needs fast food workers.
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