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Not A Magic Cross??
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ktbeasleyze
Reg. Apr 2010
Posted 2018-08-08 5:28 PM (#7404650)
Subject: Not A Magic Cross??


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So I've been told NOT to breed my Shawne Bug mare to a FWF to FG son because its a bad cross....Any thoughts or experience with these or why they are not a magic cross?
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Whiteboy
Reg. Jul 2012
Posted 2018-08-08 5:45 PM (#7404651 - in reply to #7404650)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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Shawne Bug has always been 2nd or 3rd best cross on FWF. Not sure why it would be a bad cross on his son's. Who told you this?? Post their name here so we can publicly shame them for saying dumb things.
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ktbeasleyze
Reg. Apr 2010
Posted 2018-08-08 8:07 PM (#7404662 - in reply to #7404650)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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Just an older lady at NBHA NC02....don't want to say anything else other than that. Any thoughts on the FG cross on shawne bug? I love this mare to death and she is smokin 1D but is getting older so we want to go ahead and retire her before its too late for the breeding shed. Her pedigree includes Sticks An Stones x Jody O'Toole x Shawne Bug. I know its back there but she saw her papers and was like "NO WAY to an FWF or FG cause the Shawne Bug in her just blew that ticket out the window...."
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Mighty Broke
Reg. Jul 2004
Posted 2018-08-09 8:50 AM (#7404688 - in reply to #7404650)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??



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IMO---a 1D daughter of Shawnr Bug would cross on just about ANYTHING. 
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OregonBR
Reg. Dec 2003
Posted 2018-08-09 10:19 AM (#7404704 - in reply to #7404650)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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Here's my take on this. ANY cross you make is going to have 50% of the sires genes and 50% of the mare's genes. The 50% of each parent that doesn't get passed on is lost to the product of the mating. If you make the cross multiple times, you may get as much as 80-90% of the same genes in a full sibling or you may get 25% common genes in each foal. There are infinite combinations. That means that any single cross of horses can produce horses that are very much the same or very different. This is with the same parents.

In the case of a dominant gene, one parent could be homozygous for that gene and pass it on 100% of the time. If the parent has one copy (heterozygous). The parent passes it on 50% of the time. If they didn't get the gene from either parent, they don't have it, can't have problems from that gene and will not pass it on.

If the gene is one that is undesirable, they will be just like their parent in a bad way. If it's a good gene (like a large heart) it is very desirable and the value of that breeding stock is high.

With the research that is being done looking for undesirable genes, we are seeing horses that have only one copy of the bad genes passing them on at a statistically 50% rate. Meaning 1/2 of their foals will have it and 1/2 will not. So while one cross from a stallion and mare might be great. The next might have the defective gene and not be good at all. The lady that told you not to do that cross may have had one or more horses crossed that way that had some issues she thought were bad enough not to want in a horse again. She may be right. But without knowing which actual horses will be crossed (first generation) there is no way to really predict if it's a bad cross. We can only make general assumptions about any particular bloodline unless there's a genetic test available to remove any doubt about the genes we don't want.

So you have to decide by really knowing both parents if there are any undesirable characteristic that they have, they could pass on. If they have the same bad characteristics, I would NOT breed them to each other. To make a blanket statement that XX grandsire and xx grandsire aren't compatible might not be true at all. Or it could be very true. It depends on what the parents got from their parents. Follow?
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ktbeasleyze
Reg. Apr 2010
Posted 2018-08-09 10:59 AM (#7404708 - in reply to #7404650)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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Well I guess all breedings might be a shot in the dark and hope for the best. My mare is just that perfect in your pocket, super forgiving, not marish, automatic type barrel horse. If I could make a copy of her I would. We tried to live cover her and she wouldn't stand....even while sedated she fought to get away so we gave up rather than force it.

We've even thought ICSI or embryo transfer because even though shes amazing I don't know if she'd make a great mom. Anyone had any luck with those especially the ICSI? I know the pocket would be hurting but who has had success with it?
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Whiteboy
Reg. Jul 2012
Posted 2018-08-09 11:42 AM (#7404717 - in reply to #7404708)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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You can ET with Outback for 4700 for 2 embryos.  Dr. Beck will guarantee a icsi pregnancy for $10K.   Did you sell your stud? 

Or you could clone her for $100K


Edited by Whiteboy 2018-08-09 11:43 AM
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OregonBR
Reg. Dec 2003
Posted 2018-08-09 12:28 PM (#7404721 - in reply to #7404708)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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ktbeasleyze - 2018-08-09 8:59 AM

Well I guess all breedings might be a shot in the dark and hope for the best. My mare is just that perfect in your pocket, super forgiving, not marish, automatic type barrel horse. If I could make a copy of her I would. We tried to live cover her and she wouldn't stand....even while sedated she fought to get away so we gave up rather than force it.

We've even thought ICSI or embryo transfer because even though shes amazing I don't know if she'd make a great mom. Anyone had any luck with those especially the ICSI? I know the pocket would be hurting but who has had success with it?

I have one like that. She's one of my two best mares. There's only one way to breed her, she will accept. That's A-I with collected semen. Even then she sometimes needs to be sedated.
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casualdust07
Reg. Mar 2005
Posted 2018-08-09 1:50 PM (#7404729 - in reply to #7404650)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??



You get what you give


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Any time someone picks a name several generations back on a pedigree and tries to pin behavioral problems on that one horse I roll my eyes.



Are there other reasons why you think she wouldn't make a good mom? AI and carrying is a lot cheaper than the other alternatives.
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ktbeasleyze
Reg. Apr 2010
Posted 2018-08-09 3:53 PM (#7404763 - in reply to #7404717)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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Whiteboy - 2018-08-09 12:42 PM

You can ET with Outback for 4700 for 2 embryos.  Dr. Beck will guarantee a icsi pregnancy for $10K.   Did you sell your stud? 

Or you could clone her for $100K

I do have my stallion still. We have decided we are not going to collect him any longer because he is super hard to stimulate and doesn't give enough to justify shipping and if he is shipped then it has to counter to counter. We can only pasture breed him and then still keep our fingers crossed. Some mares he is raring to go and others he could careless if she is trying to get up under him......We can't figure it out and we tried to get him to breed her and left her in there for a while and after he did try and as soon she said "NO" he just turned and walked away from her.

When we used to collect him he would sometimes ejaculate before mounting the phantom or not drop at all. Even with live cover he dismounts WAY too early and the semen ends up on the ground. Full vet work up and they can't figure it out....

He will sit in the roping box all day and do 100% so we have no idea if he is just not interested in breeding or what...I think we have maybe 3 foals out breeding 10 mares at home so we quit and no longer stand him to the public.
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ktbeasleyze
Reg. Apr 2010
Posted 2018-08-09 3:56 PM (#7404764 - in reply to #7404729)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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Her dam was a terrible mother....literally would let the other mares beat up on her foals and not give a crap. So when my mare was born we kept her completely separate from other horses and so she has some social issues herself but has gotten a lot better now. Literally have to keep her with the OLDER broodmares. If she foals on her own I'll have to keep her separate as she's already the lowest on the totem pole so that doesn't help.
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Whiteboy
Reg. Jul 2012
Posted 2018-08-09 4:04 PM (#7404765 - in reply to #7404763)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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ktbeasleyze - 2018-08-09 3:53 PM
Whiteboy - 2018-08-09 12:42 PM You can ET with Outback for 4700 for 2 embryos.  Dr. Beck will guarantee a icsi pregnancy for $10K.   Did you sell your stud? 



Or you could clone her for $100K
I do have my stallion still. We have decided we are not going to collect him any longer because he is super hard to stimulate and doesn't give enough to justify shipping and if he is shipped then it has to counter to counter. We can only pasture breed him and then still keep our fingers crossed. Some mares he is raring to go and others he could careless if she is trying to get up under him......We can't figure it out and we tried to get him to breed her and left her in there for a while and after he did try and as soon she said "NO" he just turned and walked away from her. When we used to collect him he would sometimes ejaculate before mounting the phantom or not drop at all. Even with live cover he dismounts WAY too early and the semen ends up on the ground. Full vet work up and they can't figure it out.... He will sit in the roping box all day and do 100% so we have no idea if he is just not interested in breeding or what...I think we have maybe 3 foals out breeding 10 mares at home so we quit and no longer stand him to the public.

I'm sorry to hear that.  I really liked him.  
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stayceem
Reg. May 2007
Posted 2018-08-09 4:12 PM (#7404766 - in reply to #7404763)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??



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ktbeasleyze - 2018-08-09 3:53 PM

Whiteboy - 2018-08-09 12:42 PM

You can ET with Outback for 4700 for 2 embryos.  Dr. Beck will guarantee a icsi pregnancy for $10K.   Did you sell your stud? 

Or you could clone her for $100K

I do have my stallion still. We have decided we are not going to collect him any longer because he is super hard to stimulate and doesn't give enough to justify shipping and if he is shipped then it has to counter to counter. We can only pasture breed him and then still keep our fingers crossed. Some mares he is raring to go and others he could careless if she is trying to get up under him......We can't figure it out and we tried to get him to breed her and left her in there for a while and after he did try and as soon she said "NO" he just turned and walked away from her.

When we used to collect him he would sometimes ejaculate before mounting the phantom or not drop at all. Even with live cover he dismounts WAY too early and the semen ends up on the ground. Full vet work up and they can't figure it out....

He will sit in the roping box all day and do 100% so we have no idea if he is just not interested in breeding or what...I think we have maybe 3 foals out breeding 10 mares at home so we quit and no longer stand him to the public.

Maybe he has a fear of being a Dad... like commitment issues
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casualdust07
Reg. Mar 2005
Posted 2018-08-09 4:19 PM (#7404769 - in reply to #7404765)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??



You get what you give


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Whiteboy - 2018-08-09 4:04 PM

ktbeasleyze - 2018-08-09 3:53 PM
Whiteboy - 2018-08-09 12:42 PM You can ET with Outback for 4700 for 2 embryos.  Dr. Beck will guarantee a icsi pregnancy for $10K.   Did you sell your stud? 



Or you could clone her for $100K
I do have my stallion still. We have decided we are not going to collect him any longer because he is super hard to stimulate and doesn't give enough to justify shipping and if he is shipped then it has to counter to counter. We can only pasture breed him and then still keep our fingers crossed. Some mares he is raring to go and others he could careless if she is trying to get up under him......We can't figure it out and we tried to get him to breed her and left her in there for a while and after he did try and as soon she said "NO" he just turned and walked away from her. When we used to collect him he would sometimes ejaculate before mounting the phantom or not drop at all. Even with live cover he dismounts WAY too early and the semen ends up on the ground. Full vet work up and they can't figure it out.... He will sit in the roping box all day and do 100% so we have no idea if he is just not interested in breeding or what...I think we have maybe 3 foals out breeding 10 mares at home so we quit and no longer stand him to the public.

I'm sorry to hear that.  I really liked him.  

I've seen older stallions or ones with lameness/soreness not want to mount and they've gotten better with bute, but that's something pretty basic I'm sure y'all have already tried...
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ktbeasleyze
Reg. Apr 2010
Posted 2018-08-09 6:03 PM (#7404775 - in reply to #7404650)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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We did OSPHOS and he got better but not by much. We joke that he is a master of "the pull out method" LOL. Maybe we will get lucky and one day he will simply wake up and want to breed mares haha. He's such an easy boy to handle it makes me sad that I wont be able to get more foals out of him cause I swear I love what we have so far but maybe Im just biased

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casualdust07
Reg. Mar 2005
Posted 2018-08-10 8:51 AM (#7404802 - in reply to #7404775)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??



You get what you give


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ktbeasleyze - 2018-08-09 6:03 PM

We did OSPHOS and he got better but not by much. We joke that he is a master of "the pull out method" LOL. Maybe we will get lucky and one day he will simply wake up and want to breed mares haha. He's such an easy boy to handle it makes me sad that I wont be able to get more foals out of him cause I swear I love what we have so far but maybe Im just biased


There's one stallion we live cover at work and A- he has A TON of seminal plasma and that's mostly what comes out when he dismounts, but its a ton. It's very thick. I collected him off a mare to get a sample because he didn't get any of the LC mares in foal... THERE WAS SO MUCH PLASMA it poured out of the AV after I disconnected the collection bottle and filter.
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ktbeasleyze
Reg. Apr 2010
Posted 2018-08-10 2:15 PM (#7404830 - in reply to #7404802)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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I'll look into that with him. Well I'm hoping that maybe I can find a stallion who will get her bred on the first try

Back to my original post LOL Any one have any FG or FWF out of Shawne Bug, Jody O'toole, or Sticks An Stones mares?
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Whiteboy
Reg. Jul 2012
Posted 2018-08-10 2:35 PM (#7404832 - in reply to #7404650)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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Another example, a opposite of yours though, is Smoke N Win, Smoke N Sunrise, & Smoke N Sunshine.  All out of a fg daughter by a Smoke N Sparks (dash for perks X Shawne Bug). 
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ktbeasleyze
Reg. Apr 2010
Posted 2018-08-10 5:47 PM (#7404845 - in reply to #7404832)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


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Gotcha! Mhmm now I'm wondering if a dash for perks bred stud I the way to roll my dice.....
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jake16
Reg. Apr 2006
Posted 2018-08-10 8:38 PM (#7404855 - in reply to #7404845)
Subject: RE: Not A Magic Cross??


Go Get Em!


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ktbeasleyze - 2018-08-10 6:47 PM

Gotcha! Mhmm now I'm wondering if a dash for perks bred stud I the way to roll my dice.....

 LOVE THIS:)))) AND I THINK YOU WOULD TOO.
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