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Gene Pool and Pink Buckle Incentives
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cowgirl156
Reg. Jan 2009
Posted 2018-10-17 9:09 PM (#7410851 - in reply to #7410218)
Subject: RE: Gene Pool and Pink Buckle Incentives


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OregonBR - 2018-10-11 10:00 AM

pippy - 2018-10-11 7:16 AM

I fully believe in stallion incentives and PB is awesome! I wish the answer was YES, breeding a PROVEN, healthy mare to PB stallion will help the value of the foal and industry. I feel we all need to practice open mindedness and educate ourselves on a mares physical abilities and not just genetics. Opportunity that could benefit a broad field shouldn't be overlooked. I'm not saying a proven nobody bred mare is the answer, it just shouldn't be an automatic turnoff - there could be value.

The incentives CAN be awesome if you have the money to play. Mostly it's the riders/owner when they compete that come out ahead. The stallion owners are the ones footing the lions share of the bill year after year.

Just a thought. Just because a stallion has the luck to be owned by a person who can afford to pay them into the most expensive barrel incentive ever conceived, doesn't make that stallion worth anything to breed for a barrel racing prospect. I haven't studied the PB stallion list. But some of them haven't got foals on the ground, let alone anything performing on the track or the arena. Just because they might run on the track, doesn't make them automatically a barrel racing sire. Plus I think the stud fees on all those horses went up to cover the cost of the incentive. That's just how it has to be.

I think it's possible/probable that these PB eligible foals will have an inflated selling price based on the possibility they could earn more money in the PB races. But that's only one race a year. Obviously, people will have to weigh all the facts and choose for themselves. But expect to pay more for the stud fees and the foals in an artificially inflated market.

Well said!!
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willyturnit
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2018-10-22 12:10 PM (#7411217 - in reply to #7410851)
Subject: RE: Gene Pool and Pink Buckle Incentives



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I agree with you. I can say that I hear "the futurity trainers won't ride them unless they are in the.... incentive". I'm happy for the trainer. but they are not the one footing the bill. I would love to have the $25,000 a year for 5 years to put our stallion in just one incentive. But, lets face it. The people who benefited most from the PB program are the ones who already had 3, 4 or 5 year olds already running. They have had to pay one or two payments, in total, to get to run. The ones with weanlings will pay for 4 years to get to run. That is a huge gambil. Also, try flipping the coin. If the mare owners had to pay $25,000 a year to make the mares foals eligible it would never happen.  
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casualdust07
Reg. Mar 2005
Posted 2018-10-22 2:35 PM (#7411237 - in reply to #7411217)
Subject: RE: Gene Pool and Pink Buckle Incentives



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willyturnit - 2018-10-22 12:10 PM

I agree with you. I can say that I hear "the futurity trainers won't ride them unless they are in the.... incentive". I'm happy for the trainer. but they are not the one footing the bill. I would love to have the $25,000 a year for 5 years to put our stallion in just one incentive. But, lets face it. The people who benefited most from the PB program are the ones who already had 3, 4 or 5 year olds already running. They have had to pay one or two payments, in total, to get to run. The ones with weanlings will pay for 4 years to get to run. That is a huge gambil. Also, try flipping the coin. If the mare owners had to pay $25,000 a year to make the mares foals eligible it would never happen.  

But a mare has maybe a few babies per year IF she’s being ETed. A stallion can book 50-100 in a year no problem. That kind of money doesn’t make sense for a mare owner to pay annually.
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willyturnit
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2018-10-22 4:01 PM (#7411253 - in reply to #7411237)
Subject: RE: Gene Pool and Pink Buckle Incentives



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I have to point out the "book 50-100 mares a year no problem". Most stallions MIGHT cover 30-50 mares a year. When you talk about 100 you are talking Dash Ta Fame, A Streak A Fling (only 5 years his numbers were over 100 in  2018 according to AQHA he is at 53) and One Famous Eagle (5 years at over 100 in 2018 at 20 according to AQHA), Slick By Design (5 years standing at stud, 3 years over 100 2018 according to AQHA 47) I am sure there are others. Some of the stallions that are in the PB are syndicated which spreads the cost out over all of the owners, making it much more affordable to pay stallions in. I didn't go through the whole list of stallions and I know there are a portion of them that are not syndicated. But another thing to point out, from a stallion owners point of view, and with what has been said before. Foal owners have to pay them in. And many don't. A stallion owner doesn't make much money a year in awards from these programs, and even less if the eligible foals aren't paid into the programs. Additionally, mare owners call and ask for discounted stud fees. It's hard to pay the bills paying out $25,000 to PB, $2800 to FF, $5000 to Blue Collar and paying for advertising at around $15,000 a year. At some point in time the Stallion owners are going to have to raise stud fees substainally just to cover paying them into all of these incentives. 
 
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Whiteboy
Reg. Jul 2012
Posted 2018-10-22 4:10 PM (#7411254 - in reply to #7410070)
Subject: RE: Gene Pool and Pink Buckle Incentives


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I agree that very few cover over 50 a year, let alone 100.  But now that there is a stallion on every street corner, they have to do something to set themselves apart.  Other than progeny performance and incentives, there are not alot of other ways to do it.   
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Whiteboy
Reg. Jul 2012
Posted 2018-10-22 4:14 PM (#7411255 - in reply to #7410070)
Subject: RE: Gene Pool and Pink Buckle Incentives


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And unfortunatly, the incentives become basic expectation.   Adding no value in price, but without you aren't going to get any attention.   So the stallion owners are adding long term cost but no long term return.  

Edited by Whiteboy 2018-10-22 4:15 PM
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Gail
Reg. Sep 2003
Posted 2018-10-22 9:11 PM (#7411282 - in reply to #7411255)
Subject: RE: Gene Pool and Pink Buckle Incentives


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Off topic but I need to inject something.

Conversations like this is why BHW Forums were created.  This is a fantastic read!  Thanks for keeping it civil and informative.

TALK ON! :)    
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Mighty Broke
Reg. Jul 2004
Posted 2018-10-23 8:31 AM (#7411294 - in reply to #7411254)
Subject: RE: Gene Pool and Pink Buckle Incentives



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Whiteboy - 2018-10-22 5:10 PM I agree that very few cover over 50 a year, let alone 100.  But now that there is a stallion on every street corner, they have to do something to set themselves apart.  Other than progeny performance and incentives, there are not alot of other ways to do it.   

IMO---winning is what gets attention. Getting the horses into the hands of people that will make them shine is the biggest obstacle we run into as a breeder. Selling a foal just to get the cash does no good in the long term, as a breeder you are better off to bite the bullet early and either pay to get them to a quality trainer that will make them shine or sell them at a huge discount and the benefits will be huge down the road. 
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OregonBR
Reg. Dec 2003
Posted 2018-10-23 10:53 AM (#7411323 - in reply to #7411294)
Subject: RE: Gene Pool and Pink Buckle Incentives


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Mighty Broke - 2018-10-23 6:31 AM

Whiteboy - 2018-10-22 5:10 PM I agree that very few cover over 50 a year, let alone 100.  But now that there is a stallion on every street corner, they have to do something to set themselves apart.  Other than progeny performance and incentives, there are not alot of other ways to do it.   

IMO---winning is what gets attention. Getting the horses into the hands of people that will make them shine is the biggest obstacle we run into as a breeder. Selling a foal just to get the cash does no good in the long term, as a breeder you are better off to bite the bullet early and either pay to get them to a quality trainer that will make them shine or sell them at a huge discount and the benefits will be huge down the road. 

When you sell one to someone for a discount, USUALLY what they do is flip the horse for a profit and you're never going to see that horse excel anywhere. Because they aren't as picky as you are who buys them. It's not their program they're trying to build. They sell for the money and not for the horse's or your programs well being/benefit.

I have a young horse I chose to keep. I have $8K in training so far and he's not close to ready to compete. I figure I'll have another $8K into him before I'm done.

ETA: I completely agree with winning gets attention.

Edited by OregonBR 2018-10-23 10:55 AM
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Mighty Broke
Reg. Jul 2004
Posted 2018-10-23 11:04 AM (#7411327 - in reply to #7411323)
Subject: RE: Gene Pool and Pink Buckle Incentives



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OregonBR - 2018-10-23 11:53 AM
Mighty Broke - 2018-10-23 6:31 AM
Whiteboy - 2018-10-22 5:10 PM I agree that very few cover over 50 a year, let alone 100.  But now that there is a stallion on every street corner, they have to do something to set themselves apart.  Other than progeny performance and incentives, there are not alot of other ways to do it.   
IMO---winning is what gets attention. Getting the horses into the hands of people that will make them shine is the biggest obstacle we run into as a breeder. Selling a foal just to get the cash does no good in the long term, as a breeder you are better off to bite the bullet early and either pay to get them to a quality trainer that will make them shine or sell them at a huge discount and the benefits will be huge down the road. 
When you sell one to someone for a discount, USUALLY what they do is flip the horse for a profit and you're never going to see that horse excel anywhere. Because they aren't as picky as you are who buys them. It's not their program they're trying to build. They sell for the money and not for the horse's or your programs well being/benefit. I have a young horse I chose to keep. I have $8K in training so far and he's not close to ready to compete. I figure I'll have another $8K into him before I'm done. ETA: I completely agree with winning gets attention.

Agree---that is a possible scenario and I have ran into that also, just gotta weigh the risk vs reward type thing. 
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