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Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?

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Ticktock
Reg. Aug 2010
Posted 2018-12-21 10:09 AM
Subject: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



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Why cant we have a numbered system like the team ropers? I dont have the time to produce this or I would but what if it was like the old $500, $1000, $1500 novice classes used to be but based on D Equistat earnings for your horse not rider? Barrel Horse News already reports divisional standings for Horses and States so why not? I personally do not have the horse caliber right now to run with true 1D and The toughs of the futurity/rodeo world so I stay away from the huge races for that reason but am building towards it. I would much rather pay a higher fee to compete against my true competition. So you know when you entered you would be competing on a fair playing field for your horse? I know theres always those sandbaggers but with the stats of Equistat sure makes it easier where before it was not tracked. So there would be an association that basically runs each Division as a separate class with a straight pay out. This would help the fall in the crack people. If your horse is most consistent in a particular D and has won more money in say the 3 D then thats your classification. Once you earn a certain amount then you bump up a D and so on. Just a thought.
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IdahoBarrelRacer756
Reg. May 2015
Posted 2018-12-21 10:13 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


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Part of the problem with that is the accuracy of Equistat numbers. There a lot of very nice horses that just run locally that have probably never been entered in a race that reports to Equistat (or rarely, at least). They're going to show up with few earnings and be able to compete in a lower class, but still absolutely wipe the floor with everyone else whose earnings are really reflective of the horse/rider's ability.
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Ticktock
Reg. Aug 2010
Posted 2018-12-21 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



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Thats where the board of the Association comes in. I pay attention locally to horses that win and I know im not the only one. Im sure that would happen on occasion but not the norm. Besides it would only take a few times before the board or members would call that person out and put the horse in the correct Division if that person decided to run at that associations race.
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Whiteboy
Reg. Jul 2012
Posted 2018-12-21 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


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IdahoBarrelRacer756 - 2018-12-21 10:13 AM Part of the problem with that is the accuracy of Equistat numbers. There a lot of very nice horses that just run locally that have probably never been entered in a race that reports to Equistat (or rarely, at least). They're going to show up with few earnings and be able to compete in a lower class, but still absolutely wipe the floor with everyone else whose earnings are really reflective of the horse/rider's ability.

Then they get bumped.   It is pretty simple.  
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1DSoon
Reg. May 2009
Posted 2018-12-21 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?





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 The D system is the single greatest reason BR has survived and thrived. 

You go to a numbered system and you will see the 1's and probably the 2's be non existent 

The numbers work in the Roping world becuase while a good horse is important, the ability to rope is more important. 

You can put a True 1D(you pick the one you want) on a true 3-4d horse and your going to still have a 3-4 result. 


 
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rodeomom3
Reg. Dec 2007
Posted 2018-12-21 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



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Isn’t that what the d system already does, a straight pay out against others who run in the same bracket/D.   It works pretty well without having to track stats, I don’t see what is unfair about it. 

Edited by rodeomom3 2018-12-21 10:54 AM
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SKM
Reg. Dec 2003
Posted 2018-12-21 10:57 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



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A numbering system was tried in CO in the mid 90’s. It failed. I was given such a high number based off of my AQHA show record (nothing to to with barrels) that anything I ran would have had to run in the open.

I can’t see how this would work for barrel racers like it does for team ropers. Team roping and barrels are like night and day.
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Liana D
Reg. Sep 2008
Posted 2018-12-21 10:59 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


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Several years ago there was an association in Ok. They had a numbering system for horses and riders. It was well run and they tried their best to assign numbers fairly. It didn’t last long because no one was happy with the numbers they got. The final straw was when a professional race horse jockey/barrel racer got a low number under her maiden name and won everything at their finals.
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OhMax
Reg. Feb 2013
Posted 2018-12-21 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


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1DSoon - 2018-12-21 10:42 AM

 The D system is the single greatest reason BR has survived and thrived. 

You go to a numbered system and you will see the 1's and probably the 2's be non existent 

The numbers work in the Roping world becuase while a good horse is important, the ability to rope is more important. 

You can put a True 1D(you pick the one you want) on a true 3-4d horse and your going to still have a 3-4 result. 


 

For once....

I agree with everything you said.

Maybe a Christmas miracle
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Southtxponygirl
Reg. Nov 2006
Posted 2018-12-21 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



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1DSoon - 2018-12-21 10:42 AM  The D system is the single greatest reason BR has survived and thrived. 

You go to a numbered system and you will see the 1's and probably the 2's be non existent 

The numbers work in the Roping world becuase while a good horse is important, the ability to rope is more important. 

You can put a True 1D(you pick the one you want) on a true 3-4d horse and your going to still have a 3-4 result. 


 
I agree, had to delete all what I said because I was just blabbing. But I agree with 1DSoon..   

Edited by Southtxponygirl 2018-12-21 8:59 PM
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barrelchasinmonki
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2018-12-23 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



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 Something else to think about is a 1d, 2d, etc horse in say Ga probAbly won’t be in that same D say in Tx. It’s very much that way around here even. In general horses in one part of the state aren’t as tough as the other.
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NipntuckLR
Reg. Mar 2005
Posted 2018-12-23 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



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I personally think the D system is brilliant. It keeps people at all different levels coming back.
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Quick3
Reg. Jun 2004
Posted 2018-12-24 7:00 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



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Liana D - 2018-12-21 10:59 AM Several years ago there was an association in Ok. They had a numbering system for horses and riders. It was well run and they tried their best to assign numbers fairly. It didn’t last long because no one was happy with the numbers they got. The final straw was when a professional race horse jockey/barrel racer got a low number under her maiden name and won everything at their finals.

I remember this.  It only lasted the one year.   
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OregonBR
Reg. Dec 2003
Posted 2018-12-26 12:25 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


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Whether you like or agree with the D system, you can't deny it's eliminated cheating. Some people lie and cheat. It used to happen a LOT. The way the D system works it doesn't matter how much money or how fast your horse or rider is. The only thing that matters is how they stack up on that day, on that run. It eliminates cheating to large extent. There is still some cheating. Like manipulating draw position. When people enter using Horse 1, horse 2, etc. or just barn names on registered horses, it's hard to know what they are doing for sure. Or the promoter allows them to pick their draw spot, this is cheating. But in large part it stops 90% of the lying.

Edited by OregonBR 2018-12-26 12:26 PM
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bscanchaser
Reg. Feb 2005
Posted 2019-01-02 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?




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Ticktock, I've had this same question for a while.  One look at the World Series Team Roping payouts from Vegas and it makes me sick to think that the majority of the barrel racing world is perfectly content playing the 3/4/5D game where very few people are making money. The money earned divisions won't work as you will have 1d and 4d combinations running in the same group.  There needs to be a standardized rating that rates each horse/rider combo and then they are reevaluated 3 or 4 times a year by an overseeing board of directors to ensure they are correctly rated; this approach has worked across several team roping associations.  I agree the 3/4/5D's helped promote barrel racing and was a great thing for our sport 30 years ago but now it seems like we are perfectly content with the welfare barrel racing status where we are all barely able to breakeven.  After all the fees and office holdouts are taken from our entries, some races are barely putting 55% back into the pot which results in lackluster payouts when the same producers pay deep into each division to spread the money.  IMO, if we want big payout events we need to change how our industry produces races.          
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lonely va barrelxr
Reg. Apr 2005
Posted 2019-01-02 12:51 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



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bscanchaser - 2019-01-02 1:29 PM Ticktock, I've had this same question for a while.  One look at the World Series Team Roping payouts from Vegas and it makes me sick to think that the majority of the barrel racing world is perfectly content playing the 3/4/5D game where very few people are making money. The money earned divisions won't work as you will have 1d and 4d combinations running in the same group.  There needs to be a standardized rating that rates each horse/rider combo and then they are reevaluated 3 or 4 times a year by an overseeing board of directors to ensure they are correctly rated; this approach has worked across several team roping associations.  I agree the 3/4/5D's helped promote barrel racing and was a great thing for our sport 30 years ago but now it seems like we are perfectly content with the welfare barrel racing status where we are all barely able to breakeven.  After all the fees and office holdouts are taken from our entries, some races are barely putting 55% back into the pot which results in lackluster payouts when the same producers pay deep into each division to spread the money.  IMO, if we want big payout events we need to change how our industry produces races.          



I think revamping how shows are produced and paid out is more reasonable than complicating the divisional scoring. I know how bad some producers can be. I won two saddles and two wildcards (meaning I won final rounds at our NBHA State Finals) and neither check was $200 with almost 200 entries. I won another saddle and wildcard under a different producer, a division down from the earlier saddles, with at least 25 less entries, and my check was over $400. 

I don't understand the team roping system since I've never been close to team roping. But I'm thinking what's the difference, really, over how the barrel horses are viewed? It's just that we all run together and then are scored out per division after all horses have run. But I may be missing the point of the team penning system?
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OhMax
Reg. Feb 2013
Posted 2019-01-02 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


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Remember though that the majority of ropings are NOT the World Series in Vegas. Not every roping pays like Vegas.

From the WSTR website a roping with 101-125 entries will pay 5 holes. WSTR stock charges are 20% except for the #8 which is 30%. So you’ve got 70-80% payback on your fees.

Also consider that not every roping has the Vegas type entry fee. $150-$200 per entry is pretty normal. There’s barrel races that have those kinds of entry fees too.

As for a rating system - how would you classify me if I haul 4 head to a race and have 2 finished horses in the 1D/2D, a colt I’m seasoning in the 3D and one I’m mentally rehabbing in the 5D? Should I have to run all of them in the “1D” and basically forfeit any shot at winning any money on 2 of them? That’s basically going to drive me away from “sanctioned” races and keep me at open races - the same way having his number bumped has driven my husband away from sanctioned ropings and kept him at open jackpots for now.

I’m not against bigger money races and opportunities to grow our sport, but I don’t think the team roping numbering system is a platform that can be mirrored in barrel racing - the balance of horse power and rider talent is too different.
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NJJ
Reg. Jul 2006
Posted 2019-01-02 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


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bscanchaser - 2019-01-02 12:29 PM Ticktock, I've had this same question for a while.  One look at the World Series Team Roping payouts from Vegas and it makes me sick to think that the majority of the barrel racing world is perfectly content playing the 3/4/5D game where very few people are making money. The money earned divisions won't work as you will have 1d and 4d combinations running in the same group.  There needs to be a standardized rating that rates each horse/rider combo and then they are reevaluated 3 or 4 times a year by an overseeing board of directors to ensure they are correctly rated; this approach has worked across several team roping associations.  I agree the 3/4/5D's helped promote barrel racing and was a great thing for our sport 30 years ago but now it seems like we are perfectly content with the welfare barrel racing status where we are all barely able to breakeven.  After all the fees and office holdouts are taken from our entries, some races are barely putting 55% back into the pot which results in lackluster payouts when the same producers pay deep into each division to spread the money.  IMO, if we want big payout events we need to change how our industry produces races.          
Instead of changing the system ...... barrel racers need to start with the highlighted statement ...... Additionally, in the team roping, the ratings are on the RIDER only .... rarely do you ever see a team roper show up with several horses (many that are novice horses). It is not feasible to handicap a barrel horse rider by making them enter in a higher classification when mounted on a novice horse. JMO

Edited by NJJ 2019-01-02 3:31 PM
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OhMax
Reg. Feb 2013
Posted 2019-01-02 3:40 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


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NJJ - 2019-01-02 3:29 PM

bscanchaser - 2019-01-02 12:29 PM Ticktock, I've had this same question for a while.  One look at the World Series Team Roping payouts from Vegas and it makes me sick to think that the majority of the barrel racing world is perfectly content playing the 3/4/5D game where very few people are making money. The money earned divisions won't work as you will have 1d and 4d combinations running in the same group.  There needs to be a standardized rating that rates each horse/rider combo and then they are reevaluated 3 or 4 times a year by an overseeing board of directors to ensure they are correctly rated; this approach has worked across several team roping associations.  I agree the 3/4/5D's helped promote barrel racing and was a great thing for our sport 30 years ago but now it seems like we are perfectly content with the welfare barrel racing status where we are all barely able to breakeven.  After all the fees and office holdouts are taken from our entries, some races are barely putting 55% back into the pot which results in lackluster payouts when the same producers pay deep into each division to spread the money.  IMO, if we want big payout events we need to change how our industry produces races.          
Instead of changing the system ...... barrel racers need to start with the highlighted statement ...... Additionally, in the team roping, the ratings are on the RIDER only .... rarely do you ever see a team roper show up with several horses (many that are novice horses). It is not feasible to handicap a barrel horse rider by making them enter in a higher classification when mounted on a novice horse. JMO

It’s more common than you think that they show up with multiples. Runs can start to add up really quick with a progressive format and multiple partners.

But, a great/handy roper can make a shot when a green horse doesn’t give him a lot to work with. And you’re entering yourself, not your horse. If your main mount is working great you can stay on him. Or you can get off him for a couple rounds, or season colts with a handful of runs each.

Or if you get to admiring another guys horse too much he might just price him to you and you can hop on and try him right then - sold more than one that way.
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rodeomom3
Reg. Dec 2007
Posted 2019-01-02 3:55 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



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bscanchaser - 2019-01-02 12:29 PM Ticktock, I've had this same question for a while.  One look at the World Series Team Roping payouts from Vegas and it makes me sick to think that the majority of the barrel racing world is perfectly content playing the 3/4/5D game where very few people are making money. The money earned divisions won't work as you will have 1d and 4d combinations running in the same group.  There needs to be a standardized rating that rates each horse/rider combo and then they are reevaluated 3 or 4 times a year by an overseeing board of directors to ensure they are correctly rated; this approach has worked across several team roping associations.  I agree the 3/4/5D's helped promote barrel racing and was a great thing for our sport 30 years ago but now it seems like we are perfectly content with the welfare barrel racing status where we are all barely able to breakeven.  After all the fees and office holdouts are taken from our entries, some races are barely putting 55% back into the pot which results in lackluster payouts when the same producers pay deep into each division to spread the money.  IMO, if we want big payout events we need to change how our industry produces races.          

 My husband shoots sporting clays and that is how that sport is done.    You start off on the lowest level, earn “punches” thru participating in tournaments and winning/placing in your division.   You earn a certain amount of punches and then you bump up to the next class with the master class being the top division.   Each division only competes against itself but the downside is if you have a score that maybe would’ve won the class below you but not high enough to place in your class , you get nothing.  I see shooters manipulate the system, not turn in scores because they don’t want to bump up.   I think that would go over like a lead balloon and barrel racing.   And what a hassle trying to evaluate rider/horse combination throughout the year.   The current D system gives everybody a chance to play.  I’m in South East Texas and we don’t have a ton of fees an 80% payout race may have a five/ten dollar office fee with it but that’s it.

Edited by rodeomom3 2019-01-04 12:47 PM
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