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Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?

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Last activity 2019-01-12 1:32 PM
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classicpotatochip
Reg. Mar 2011
Posted 2019-01-03 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Owner of a ratting catting machine


Posts: 2258
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Barrel racing can’t compare to the team roping number system. We don’t enter or run similarly for one thing.

One guy can rope 12-16 times in one roping if he wants to put up the money. The World Series fees were $2,250 a man, with each team guaranteed 3 runs. I’ve yet to see a can chaser put up that money for anything ever. Most of our horses wouldn’t handle 3 runs within a 45 minute period, much less 12-16 in a few hours.

I can see numbering horses themselves like team ropers, but who’s going to keep track of them all? Not I.


I would love to see higher fees to play the barrel racing game. Pay to play. Producers everywhere would have to band together though, because the $90 entry 40 minutes away isn’t going to get as many entries as the $30 entry an hour away. There’s too many chances to walk away without anything as compared to winning a place for most of us to put our money where our mouths are.

I can see the value of doing a full revamp, but who’s going to make it happen?

I’ve jackpotted in largely every region of the country, and everyone does it differently, some for the better, most for the largely worse.
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cindyt
Reg. Dec 2003
Posted 2019-01-03 1:04 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Ms Bling Bling Sleeze Kitty


Posts: 20502
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Location: LouLouVille, OK
 Im really not sure why you would stay away from any big race that is a 5D... you don't have to have a 1D to get in the money at those...
and for me... if I ran with only people in my D... it wouldn't push me to try to do better.  Those 1D girls make me WANT it more... I admire them, I don't dislike them.... I want to get there, and with out  that competition... I would probably just stay where I am, if that makes sense... I mean I am thrilled where I have been... but I always want to do better....   With the ropers... I always tell my husband to roper with higher numbered ropers from time to time to push him to his full potential as well :)
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OhMax
Reg. Feb 2013
Posted 2019-01-03 8:03 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Married to a Louie Lover


Posts: 3250
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classicpotatochip - 2019-01-03 12:15 PM

Barrel racing can’t compare to the team roping number system. We don’t enter or run similarly for one thing.

One guy can rope 12-16 times in one roping if he wants to put up the money. The World Series fees were $2,250 a man, with each team guaranteed 3 runs. I’ve yet to see a can chaser put up that money for anything ever. Most of our horses wouldn’t handle 3 runs within a 45 minute period, much less 12-16 in a few hours.

I can see numbering horses themselves like team ropers, but who’s going to keep track of them all? Not I.


I would love to see higher fees to play the barrel racing game. Pay to play. Producers everywhere would have to band together though, because the $90 entry 40 minutes away isn’t going to get as many entries as the $30 entry an hour away. There’s too many chances to walk away without anything as compared to winning a place for most of us to put our money where our mouths are.

I can see the value of doing a full revamp, but who’s going to make it happen?

I’ve jackpotted in largely every region of the country, and everyone does it differently, some for the better, most for the largely worse.

I don’t think you have to revamp the system, persay.

Remember Vegas is the grand finale finals of the WSTR. It pays like a slock machine because of the high entry fee, but also the number of entries. I couldn’t find the total entries for this year - but I found a 2016 FloRodeo article that said over 3800 contestants attended the Vegas event that year, and over 100,000 teams roped at 140 qualifying events. And it didn’t always pay as tremendously as this year - in 2013, the oldest results on the WSTR website, winning the #9 paid $181,000. This year it paid $350,000. YES $181k is still a crapload of prize money, my point is that participation has increased tremendously over the last few years to ratchet the payout up to levels that made everyone’s eyes bug out this year.

So do we need a new system - or do we need a national organization to host an annual finals with a big entry fee and qualifying events throughout the year? How is what WSTR does in Vegas any different than say, BBR finals in OKC? As a national finals that you have to qualify to go to, it’s not. As a high entry fee with LOTS of players - they’ve got a good thing going, and I’m not sure how to get barrel racing on the same page.

Remember while the TR take home $ was bigger - the chance of earning a check was smaller. I cannot find any total entry number, but I did see on FB where they said the #14 had over 500 entries. The results shows 27 places paid - if it was 500 entries on the nose that’s a 5.4% shot at getting a check. That’s the equivalent of a 5D with 500 entries paying 5-6 places per D.

Maybe it is the difference in men and women and a willingness to gamble - maybe it’s knowing if you get out there and invest all that money and your horse is off his game you can either rope more aggressively to make up for it - or even opt to mount out and pay someone a little mount money to ride a horse who’s on his A game. If as barrel racers we invest all that money and our horse is off - typically, we dont have those options. That makes the stakes feel a bit higher.
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classicpotatochip
Reg. Mar 2011
Posted 2019-01-03 8:52 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Owner of a ratting catting machine


Posts: 2258
20001001002525
OhMax - 2019-01-03 8:03 PM

classicpotatochip - 2019-01-03 12:15 PM

Barrel racing can’t compare to the team roping number system. We don’t enter or run similarly for one thing.

One guy can rope 12-16 times in one roping if he wants to put up the money. The World Series fees were $2,250 a man, with each team guaranteed 3 runs. I’ve yet to see a can chaser put up that money for anything ever. Most of our horses wouldn’t handle 3 runs within a 45 minute period, much less 12-16 in a few hours.

I can see numbering horses themselves like team ropers, but who’s going to keep track of them all? Not I.


I would love to see higher fees to play the barrel racing game. Pay to play. Producers everywhere would have to band together though, because the $90 entry 40 minutes away isn’t going to get as many entries as the $30 entry an hour away. There’s too many chances to walk away without anything as compared to winning a place for most of us to put our money where our mouths are.

I can see the value of doing a full revamp, but who’s going to make it happen?

I’ve jackpotted in largely every region of the country, and everyone does it differently, some for the better, most for the largely worse.

I don’t think you have to revamp the system, persay.

Remember Vegas is the grand finale finals of the WSTR. It pays like a slock machine because of the high entry fee, but also the number of entries. I couldn’t find the total entries for this year - but I found a 2016 FloRodeo article that said over 3800 contestants attended the Vegas event that year, and over 100,000 teams roped at 140 qualifying events. And it didn’t always pay as tremendously as this year - in 2013, the oldest results on the WSTR website, winning the #9 paid $181,000. This year it paid $350,000. YES $181k is still a crapload of prize money, my point is that participation has increased tremendously over the last few years to ratchet the payout up to levels that made everyone’s eyes bug out this year.

So do we need a new system - or do we need a national organization to host an annual finals with a big entry fee and qualifying events throughout the year? How is what WSTR does in Vegas any different than say, BBR finals in OKC? As a national finals that you have to qualify to go to, it’s not. As a high entry fee with LOTS of players - they’ve got a good thing going, and I’m not sure how to get barrel racing on the same page.

Remember while the TR take home $ was bigger - the chance of earning a check was smaller. I cannot find any total entry number, but I did see on FB where they said the #14 had over 500 entries. The results shows 27 places paid - if it was 500 entries on the nose that’s a 5.4% shot at getting a check. That’s the equivalent of a 5D with 500 entries paying 5-6 places per D.

Maybe it is the difference in men and women and a willingness to gamble - maybe it’s knowing if you get out there and invest all that money and your horse is off his game you can either rope more aggressively to make up for it - or even opt to mount out and pay someone a little mount money to ride a horse who’s on his A game. If as barrel racers we invest all that money and our horse is off - typically, we dont have those options. That makes the stakes feel a bit higher.

Right. I get it. I was at the WS finals this year.

I don’t know how to bring barrel racing into higher payouts without higher entries, and getting barrel racers to fork out the change is going to be difficult.
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clover girl
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2019-01-04 7:30 AM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



The Worst Seller Ever


Posts: 4135
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lonely va barrelxr - 2019-01-02 12:51 PM
bscanchaser - 2019-01-02 1:29 PM Ticktock, I've had this same question for a while.  One look at the World Series Team Roping payouts from Vegas and it makes me sick to think that the majority of the barrel racing world is perfectly content playing the 3/4/5D game where very few people are making money. The money earned divisions won't work as you will have 1d and 4d combinations running in the same group.  There needs to be a standardized rating that rates each horse/rider combo and then they are reevaluated 3 or 4 times a year by an overseeing board of directors to ensure they are correctly rated; this approach has worked across several team roping associations.  I agree the 3/4/5D's helped promote barrel racing and was a great thing for our sport 30 years ago but now it seems like we are perfectly content with the welfare barrel racing status where we are all barely able to breakeven.  After all the fees and office holdouts are taken from our entries, some races are barely putting 55% back into the pot which results in lackluster payouts when the same producers pay deep into each division to spread the money.  IMO, if we want big payout events we need to change how our industry produces races.          




I think revamping how shows are produced and paid out is more reasonable than complicating the divisional scoring. I know how bad some producers can be. I won two saddles and two wildcards (meaning I won final rounds at our NBHA State Finals) and neither check was $200 with almost 200 entries. I won another saddle and wildcard under a different producer, a division down from the earlier saddles, with at least 25 less entries, and my check was over $400. 



I don't understand the team roping system since I've never been close to team roping. But I'm thinking what's the difference, really, over how the barrel horses are viewed? It's just that we all run together and then are scored out per division after all horses have run. But I may be missing the point of the team penning system?

This is the biggest issue at barrel races.  We are fee-ed to death and when you add up everything you are out, then see what is in actually in the pot it is eye opening.

I had a race Tuesday and although I charged a barn fee, I did not hold a percentage out of the entry fee.  60ish runs and the 1D paid almost $300 and I paid 4 in each D.  So 25% of the people entered got a check.

I also think barrel races pay too deep sometimes.  If last hole is not at least making their fees back, then IMO it paid too deep.  

As far as the clasification system, the horse plays way too big of a part in barrel racing for a classification system.  You could clasify on the horse, but that would be a LOT of leg work for the association.  To break it down to numbers, barrel is 80% horse, where roping is closer to 40-50% horse (yes a good horse makes a difference in roping, but a person can take up some of an average horse's slack.)

 
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chasendacash
Reg. Oct 2008
Posted 2019-01-06 9:50 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?


Expert


Posts: 1550
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Location: west of East Texas
If you rate the person, the person is penalized if they start bringing a young horse to season.  If you rate the horse, the new buyer is penalized for buying a better, step-up, teach me to ride better, horse.  So each (horse and rider) would have to carry a number then be classified.  I don't know many trainers that need that kind stress.  LOL   It would also be a lot of trouble checking in all the horses at every race.  Nationwide, the majority of the producers don't report to Equistat, don't want to report, and so a 'general' stats register is grossly incomplete for a local barrel race.

As far as higher dollar payouts, that comes from sponsors and we aren't talking about the local feed store and equine therapist.  Corporate sponsorship is going to follow a national association, good business decision.  There are high dollar entry races and there are low dollar entry races (and gasp... even playdays if you really want low dollar practice/fun) and they each have their own customers, a lot of the same customers too.  The 5D system is IMO a great 'classification' method for two athletes' performance on a given day.   
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Whinny19
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2019-01-12 1:32 PM
Subject: RE: Not to hijack a thread but why not have a D Classification?



Brains Behind the Operation...


Posts: 4533
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Location: Arizona
I agree with 1D's post as well. The D system has absolutely saved, and boomed, the barrel horse industry.

I don't see how the format the OP describes would work on a national scale, with large purses. It can, however, work on a smaller, local scale. There is an association here in southern AZ that uses a format similar to what OP talks about. Rather than a number system for the riders, each horse and rider combo are ranked. So the same horse can be ranked differently with different riders, and the same rider can be ranked differently depending on which horse they are riding. Before a rider and horse can enter an event, they must make some qualifying runs (I can't remember how many, 2 or 3 I think). Then they are put in a rank or division according to the average of the qualifying runs. If you end up running times slower or faster than your rank at (I think) 2 events within a season, you get bumped up or down accordingly. It works pretty well as a local association. Yes, there are a few people who hold back in their qualifying runs to try to sneak into slower divisions, but it will only work a couple times, and they aren't running for big enough money to make it worth the effort for most people to cheat.

However, a big national show with a large purse would bring in legions of cheaters. They only need to win one show to make it worthwhile.  
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