Log in to my account Barrel Horse World
Come on in Folks on-line

Today is

You are logged in as a guest. Logon or register an account to access more features.

Supplements how much is too much??

Jump to page :
Last activity 2019-10-16 6:51 AM
11 replies, 566 views

View previous thread :: View next thread
   General Discussion -> Barrel Talk
Refresh
 
3turns
Reg. Sep 2003
Posted 2019-10-08 7:04 AM
Subject: Supplements how much is too much??



Morale Booster!!


Posts: 1452
10001001001001002525

I hope this doesnt make me sound stupid or lazy... But, is there somewhere or something that you can compile all the ingredients in the supplements you are feeding to see if maybe you are doing to much? I know I could sit down and write them all out. But without knowing the proper amounts per horse, would that even work. I also know I could do more research...but I have been and I feel my head is spinning. So many different places to look and so many different opinions. TIA

↑ Top ↓ Bottom
OhMax
Reg. Feb 2013
Posted 2019-10-08 8:39 AM
Subject: RE: Supplements how much is too much??


Married to a Louie Lover


Posts: 3250
200010001001002525

Anything I feed, I feed with a purpose.

I don’t mind experimenting once in a while but I won’t throw money down the drain just because someone else recommended a product.  I want to know the science behind it.

case in point - my sister in law was looking at Biomane products the other day.  I did a quick comparison and the Platinum Performance we already feed has everything in that Biomane does - and more of it.

Sometimes you just have to do the legwork.  

↑ Top ↓ Bottom
turnnburnkota
Reg. Jan 2009
Posted 2019-10-08 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: Supplements how much is too much??



Veteran


Posts: 199
100252525
Location: So Cal

If you don't know what's in there, you're probably giving too much of a lot of things. I agree with the last comment. Feed with a purpose.

↑ Top ↓ Bottom
WYOTurn-n-Burn
Reg. Sep 2004
Posted 2019-10-08 9:42 AM
Subject: RE: Supplements how much is too much??



The Bling Princess


Posts: 3334
2000100010010010025
Location: North Dakota

I personally like the less is more concept. I always wondered how those gals/guys with an apothecary in the back of their trailer keep everything straight. Do they worry about contraindications between the supplements/herbs?

↑ Top ↓ Bottom
r_beau
Reg. Apr 2010
Posted 2019-10-08 9:55 AM
Subject: RE: Supplements how much is too much??



Born not Made


Posts: 2631
200050010025
Location: North Dakota

3turns - 2019-10-08 7:04 AM


I hope this doesnt make me sound stupid or lazy... But, is there somewhere or something that you can compile all the ingredients in the supplements you are feeding to see if maybe you are doing to much? I know I could sit down and write them all out. But without knowing the proper amounts per horse, would that even work. I also know I could do more research...but I have been and I feel my head is spinning. So many different places to look and so many different opinions. TIA


I can't recall which barrel racer it was that Racer's Edge interviewed, but years ago at the NFR the horse "wasn't quite right" and she gave him bute every other night to see if it helped. That really struck me because we think of all the things we do try to do for our horses to make them feel "their best" but .... does it really work? Would they be just fine without it? You've got BOT, PHT, MagnaWave, CoolAid, SoftRide, Flair Strips, nebulizers, Adequan, pentosan, Legend, and then all the supplements under the sun (and I know I missed a ton of things on this list). How do you know what your horse NEEDS? When is too much too much? You can easily spend a fortune on all these things. Plenty of horses won on the rodeo road before all these things existed. Sure, it's getting more and more competive every day, but you know when things are "trends" and they come and go, that they probably weren't really needed in the first place.

I guess I try to keep things simple. Making sure they get good quality forage and good exercise. Those two things will never be replaced by any gadget or supplement. And then add-in what's needed for a specific purpose.

No supplement will make your horse a 1D horse if they are not a 1D horse. And if you OVER-supplement, yes, that can have negative side effects too. Use what you know your horse needs, and that's it.

 

↑ Top ↓ Bottom
MOGirl07
Reg. Feb 2012
Posted 2019-10-08 10:49 AM
Subject: RE: Supplements how much is too much??



Expert


Posts: 1271
10001001002525
Location: Missouri

r_beau - 2019-10-08 9:55 AM


3turns - 2019-10-08 7:04 AM


I hope this doesnt make me sound stupid or lazy... But, is there somewhere or something that you can compile all the ingredients in the supplements you are feeding to see if maybe you are doing to much? I know I could sit down and write them all out. But without knowing the proper amounts per horse, would that even work. I also know I could do more research...but I have been and I feel my head is spinning. So many different places to look and so many different opinions. TIA



I can't recall which barrel racer it was that Racer's Edge interviewed, but years ago at the NFR the horse "wasn't quite right" and she gave him bute every other night to see if it helped. That really struck me because we think of all the things we do try to do for our horses to make them feel "their best" but .... does it really work? Would they be just fine without it? You've got BOT, PHT, MagnaWave, CoolAid, SoftRide, Flair Strips, nebulizers, Adequan, pentosan, Legend, and then all the supplements under the sun (and I know I missed a ton of things on this list). How do you know what your horse NEEDS? When is too much too much? You can easily spend a fortune on all these things. Plenty of horses won on the rodeo road before all these things existed. Sure, it's getting more and more competive every day, but you know when things are "trends" and they come and go, that they probably weren't really needed in the first place.


I guess I try to keep things simple. Making sure they get good quality forage and good exercise. Those two things will never be replaced by any gadget or supplement. And then add-in what's needed for a specific purpose.


No supplement will make your horse a 1D horse if they are not a 1D horse. And if you OVER-supplement, yes, that can have negative side effects too. Use what you know your horse needs, and that's it.


 


Yes, yes, and yes. I usually don't add things to me arsenal unless I've discussed it with my vet about that particular horse first. I dont have the money to try every danged thing under the sun, so I will pick his brain before spending the money and trying something new. 

↑ Top ↓ Bottom
want2chase3
Reg. May 2009
Posted 2019-10-08 12:08 PM
Subject: RE: Supplements how much is too much??



Warrior Mom


Posts: 2985
2000500100100100100252525

Darn! I need that 1D supplement

 

I agree with everyone above... you can get lost in the ocean of supplements out there! They are there to make money, your money! We all want the best for our equine partners in crime and I personally wont hesitate to get them what I think they need... but yeah, you can definitely go overboard for sure.. myself included is guilty of that! Now that I've made it much more simple, my horses look better than they ever have. In this case LESS is more on the supplement front .... find you a good well researched feed and feed recommended amounts, exercise, turnout, fresh clean water daily and the best quality hay you can get your hands on. 

↑ Top ↓ Bottom
mgander
Reg. Dec 2016
Posted 2019-10-09 12:23 PM
Subject: RE: Supplements how much is too much??


Veteran


Posts: 211
100100

Problem is you'll probably have to write it out, and their amounts (some supps won't list them) while making them the same unit of measure. Then lots of googling for toxicity or what minerals counteract or reduce the efficiency of another one, or which ones only work together. Or if it's something like turmeric it needs something to piggy back with to get into the system, typically pepper. 

 

I'm currently doing on a break down of all my stuff, right now cost comparisons and then ingredient comparisons.

Going to start the new year with no supplements added but forco (because I know that helps). Then after some months add a supplement to see if it's really helping.

↑ Top ↓ Bottom
winwillows
Reg. Jul 2013
Posted 2019-10-10 12:06 PM
Subject: RE: Supplements how much is too much??


Expert


Posts: 1384
1000100100100252525
Location: Willows, CA

Those who have been to one of my nutrition clinics have heard this ( also posted here when this topic comes up). “We feed horses into trouble, then try to supplement them out of it.”  Making a horses digestive system fully functional by the elimination of excessive amounts of grain, and feeding a quality roughage, does more than any supplement can. Extreme needs, if any, can then be addressed in the smallest, least disruptive amount needed. This will work, cost less and add useful performance years to almost any horse. A witches brew of additives is not the answer.  

↑ Top ↓ Bottom
wishingforsun
Reg. Apr 2012
Posted 2019-10-10 5:01 PM
Subject: RE: Supplements how much is too much??




100

The best thing you can do for your horse is to feed them a PROPERLY balanced diet that meets the nutrient requirements for their weight, age and work load. In order to do that you need to test your forage, water and even grain - anything that your horse ingests. And the know the amounts (in pounds or ounces) of each component. If you feed a fortified feed (take your sample from several bags) have it tested to see how closely it matches the guaranteed analysis but for sure test for nutrients that they do not list on the tag, especially magnesium and iron. You can also call the company to have them provide you with an actual test of a recent batch and also an average of recent batches. Both of those minerals, magnesium and iron, have ratios to other minerals that need to be kept in balance in order for the body to absorb and use the minerals effectively. 

Knowing the amount of iron that your horse is getting is far more important than people think and it is largely overlooked because it is harder to control in fortified feeds - most feed companies do not include it in their guaranteed analysis because then they have to test at the level - if you do see it listed it will generally have a MINIMUM amount and not a maximum amount. More often than the not the actual iron value will be MUCH higher than any minimum value listed on feed tag due to the fluctuating iron content in the ingredients. A couple examples being mono or dicalcium phosphate salts which average over 20,000ppm of contaminating iron, or magnesium oxide which often contains up to 5000ppm of iron. Diets that are overloaded in iron, will contribute to a whole list of symptoms/issues, some show up rather soon and others develop over time. Some symptoms include: bleached coat, red ends on manes/tails, skin issues, fatigue, all hoof ailments, weak ligaments and tendons, weak bones, joint pain/arthritis, hormonal issues and often metabolic syndrome/insulin resistance. It can even cause liver damage or even liver failure in late stage.

An overload in iron is also prevalent in forage only diets, as well. For example, if I was to feed my 1100lb horse 22lbs of 2nd cutting timothy only, he would be getting 1518mg of iron per day - the NRC recommendation is 400mg per day.  22lbs of this hay also provides 66mg of copper, 264mg of zinc and 264mg of manganese, a 23:1:4:4 ratio of iron:copper:zinc:manganese.  Horses have been shown to be able to tolerate an iron to copper ratio of 4-10:1; after learning what I have I would never settle on allowing my horses to have ratio of higher than 6:1 and I strive to get it to the 4:1. Copper to zinc to manganese should be 1:3:3 - there is a little wiggle room with the manganese number when the iron is so high - a rule of thumb is to provide either 1.5x the NRC requirement or 1/2 of the amount of zinc, whichever is greater. Some simple math shows that my beautiful 2nd cutting timothy is not something that should be fed without a supplement to balance the mineral profile. A friend of mine had her alfalfa/orchard grass mix tested and it was even worse at a 54:1:4.5:13 ratio...yikes!

Iron is just one piece of the puzzle (a largely overlooking one, IMO) as there are MANY others that make the body work efficiently - review the high iron symptoms listed earlier and then ask yourself how many "supplements" have been created to alleviate those? Thousands, if not millions. Same for calming, anxiety, weight, muscle, electrolytes, etc. Sure, because all horses are individuals there are some that will need an additional tweak here or there.

I strongly suggest working with a nutritionist (preferably someone NOT paid by a feed company) or better yet, take actual equine nutrition courses and educate yourself. Your horse and your bank account will thank you.

 

↑ Top ↓ Bottom
MOGirl07
Reg. Feb 2012
Posted 2019-10-10 9:35 PM
Subject: RE: Supplements how much is too much??



Expert


Posts: 1271
10001001002525
Location: Missouri

wishingforsun - 2019-10-10 5:01 PM


The best thing you can do for your horse is to feed them a PROPERLY balanced diet that meets the nutrient requirements for their weight, age and work load. In order to do that you need to test your forage, water and even grain - anything that your horse ingests. And the know the amounts (in pounds or ounces) of each component. If you feed a fortified feed (take your sample from several bags) have it tested to see how closely it matches the guaranteed analysis but for sure test for nutrients that they do not list on the tag, especially magnesium and iron. You can also call the company to have them provide you with an actual test of a recent batch and also an average of recent batches. Both of those minerals, magnesium and iron, have ratios to other minerals that need to be kept in balance in order for the body to absorb and use the minerals effectively. 


Knowing the amount of iron that your horse is getting is far more important than people think and it is largely overlooked because it is harder to control in fortified feeds - most feed companies do not include it in their guaranteed analysis because then they have to test at the level - if you do see it listed it will generally have a MINIMUM amount and not a maximum amount. More often than the not the actual iron value will be MUCH higher than any minimum value listed on feed tag due to the fluctuating iron content in the ingredients. A couple examples being mono or dicalcium phosphate salts which average over 20,000ppm of contaminating iron, or magnesium oxide which often contains up to 5000ppm of iron. Diets that are overloaded in iron, will contribute to a whole list of symptoms/issues, some show up rather soon and others develop over time. Some symptoms include: bleached coat, red ends on manes/tails, skin issues, fatigue, all hoof ailments, weak ligaments and tendons, weak bones, joint pain/arthritis, hormonal issues and often metabolic syndrome/insulin resistance. It can even cause liver damage or even liver failure in late stage.


An overload in iron is also prevalent in forage only diets, as well. For example, if I was to feed my 1100lb horse 22lbs of 2nd cutting timothy only, he would be getting 1518mg of iron per day - the NRC recommendation is 400mg per day.  22lbs of this hay also provides 66mg of copper, 264mg of zinc and 264mg of manganese, a 23:1:4:4 ratio of iron:copper:zinc:manganese.  Horses have been shown to be able to tolerate an iron to copper ratio of 4-10:1; after learning what I have I would never settle on allowing my horses to have ratio of higher than 6:1 and I strive to get it to the 4:1. Copper to zinc to manganese should be 1:3:3 - there is a little wiggle room with the manganese number when the iron is so high - a rule of thumb is to provide either 1.5x the NRC requirement or 1/2 of the amount of zinc, whichever is greater. Some simple math shows that my beautiful 2nd cutting timothy is not something that should be fed without a supplement to balance the mineral profile. A friend of mine had her alfalfa/orchard grass mix tested and it was even worse at a 54:1:4.5:13 ratio...yikes!


Iron is just one piece of the puzzle (a largely overlooking one, IMO) as there are MANY others that make the body work efficiently - review the high iron symptoms listed earlier and then ask yourself how many "supplements" have been created to alleviate those? Thousands, if not millions. Same for calming, anxiety, weight, muscle, electrolytes, etc. Sure, because all horses are individuals there are some that will need an additional tweak here or there.


I strongly suggest working with a nutritionist (preferably someone NOT paid by a feed company) or better yet, take actual equine nutrition courses and educate yourself. Your horse and your bank account will thank you.


 


This was incredibly informative. ..thank you for taking the time to type all this! 

↑ Top ↓ Bottom
3turns
Reg. Sep 2003
Posted 2019-10-16 6:51 AM
Subject: RE: Supplements how much is too much??



Morale Booster!!


Posts: 1452
10001001001001002525

MOGirl07 - 2019-10-11 8:35 PM


wishingforsun - 2019-10-10 5:01 PM


The best thing you can do for your horse is to feed them a PROPERLY balanced diet that meets the nutrient requirements for their weight, age and work load. In order to do that you need to test your forage, water and even grain - anything that your horse ingests. And the know the amounts (in pounds or ounces) of each component. If you feed a fortified feed (take your sample from several bags) have it tested to see how closely it matches the guaranteed analysis but for sure test for nutrients that they do not list on the tag, especially magnesium and iron. You can also call the company to have them provide you with an actual test of a recent batch and also an average of recent batches. Both of those minerals, magnesium and iron, have ratios to other minerals that need to be kept in balance in order for the body to absorb and use the minerals effectively. 


Knowing the amount of iron that your horse is getting is far more important than people think and it is largely overlooked because it is harder to control in fortified feeds - most feed companies do not include it in their guaranteed analysis because then they have to test at the level - if you do see it listed it will generally have a MINIMUM amount and not a maximum amount. More often than the not the actual iron value will be MUCH higher than any minimum value listed on feed tag due to the fluctuating iron content in the ingredients. A couple examples being mono or dicalcium phosphate salts which average over 20,000ppm of contaminating iron, or magnesium oxide which often contains up to 5000ppm of iron. Diets that are overloaded in iron, will contribute to a whole list of symptoms/issues, some show up rather soon and others develop over time. Some symptoms include: bleached coat, red ends on manes/tails, skin issues, fatigue, all hoof ailments, weak ligaments and tendons, weak bones, joint pain/arthritis, hormonal issues and often metabolic syndrome/insulin resistance. It can even cause liver damage or even liver failure in late stage.


An overload in iron is also prevalent in forage only diets, as well. For example, if I was to feed my 1100lb horse 22lbs of 2nd cutting timothy only, he would be getting 1518mg of iron per day - the NRC recommendation is 400mg per day.  22lbs of this hay also provides 66mg of copper, 264mg of zinc and 264mg of manganese, a 23:1:4:4 ratio of iron:copper:zinc:manganese.  Horses have been shown to be able to tolerate an iron to copper ratio of 4-10:1; after learning what I have I would never settle on allowing my horses to have ratio of higher than 6:1 and I strive to get it to the 4:1. Copper to zinc to manganese should be 1:3:3 - there is a little wiggle room with the manganese number when the iron is so high - a rule of thumb is to provide either 1.5x the NRC requirement or 1/2 of the amount of zinc, whichever is greater. Some simple math shows that my beautiful 2nd cutting timothy is not something that should be fed without a supplement to balance the mineral profile. A friend of mine had her alfalfa/orchard grass mix tested and it was even worse at a 54:1:4.5:13 ratio...yikes!


Iron is just one piece of the puzzle (a largely overlooking one, IMO) as there are MANY others that make the body work efficiently - review the high iron symptoms listed earlier and then ask yourself how many "supplements" have been created to alleviate those? Thousands, if not millions. Same for calming, anxiety, weight, muscle, electrolytes, etc. Sure, because all horses are individuals there are some that will need an additional tweak here or there.


I strongly suggest working with a nutritionist (preferably someone NOT paid by a feed company) or better yet, take actual equine nutrition courses and educate yourself. Your horse and your bank account will thank you.


 



This was incredibly informative. ..thank you for taking the time to type all this! 


Thank you very much... I appreciate all the responses. Now to get to researching...

↑ Top ↓ Bottom
Jump to page :
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread
 

© Copyright 2002- BarrelHorseWorld.com All rights reserved including digital rights

Support - Contact / Log in to my account


Working Truck World Working Horse World Cargo Trailer World Horse Trailer World Roping Horse World
'
Registered to: Barrel Horse World
(Delete all cookies set by this site)
Running MegaBBS ASP Forum Software
© 2002-2019 PD9 Software