Jenbabe - 2013-07-05 12:35 PM Have you found any specific bloodlines that are more prone to PSSM?

hoofs_in_motion - 2013-07-05 12:59 PM

What is the difference between type 1 and type 2?

annemarea - 2013-07-05 12:52 PM


 It's pretty much everywhere, but there are certainly some common denominators. You can find out more on the PSSM Facebook Forum. People are adding their pedigrees as they have them tested.

Jenbabe - 2013-07-05 1:53 PM Thanks, I'll go take a look. So, what are you feeding your PSSM horses? We have one that we suspect is PSSM because he tied up several times under different conditions, was muscle stiff, and is an easy keeper. We pulled him from sweet feed when this started happening, and we haven't had any more episodes of tying up. He is fed alfalfa, because we grow it, and he was on Strategy but now is not getting any grain. The research I saw said alfalfa was a good forage, and that we needed to increase his fat. For awhile we were adding additional fat to his diet per these recommendations, but he seems to be doing just as good if not better with alfalfa only.

annemarea - 2013-07-05 2:08 PM


 Dr Kellon has developed a diet plan for those who can't handle the high fat. You give them ALCAR instead of oils/fat. When I was troubleshooting my mare, all I fed was alfalfa pellets soaked and free choice Bermuda hay. Within a week and a half she was a different horse. Since then I've added natural Vitamin E, flax, and sugar free electrolytes (she had been getting ones with sugar added). I'm waiting to have my next load of hay tested to add anything else besides the oil for now. As far as "feed" she now gets Purina WellSolve L/S.

kakbarrelracer - 2013-07-05 2:01 PM

 So what made you decide to do the biopsy?

Gator Bug - 2013-07-05 2:13 PM

 Thank you for posting this. I too have thought is a much, much bigger problem than QH or Barrel people realize. We diagnosed our horse 9 years ago. It was a huge difference once we fed him different. 

Again, thank you for raising awareness. :)
 

GoinJettin - 2013-07-05 11:27 PM How does alfalfa hay play into the diet? 

annemarea - 2013-07-05 10:42 PM Alfalfa hay will be highest in NSC while Alfalfa cubes will be the next lowest, followed by Alfalfa pellets.  Some horses can handle the hay, while I've heard others cannot.  Here is a great chart for the Standlee cubes/pellets that you can purchase at TSC.  It will show the NSC of all of their cubes/pellets to give you an idea.  Ideally you would like to keep the NSC around 10-12% for these horses.  You can fudge those numbers some, depending on the amount of work they are given and their individual sensitivities to starch/sugar.



http://www.standleehay.com/FAQ.aspx



 

Three 4 Luck - 2013-07-06 9:30 AM This post makes me sad. I sold a horse very cheap for "lack of performance" that would fit neatly into the symptoms discussed here. To a Tee. I'm going to send a link to this discussion to his new owners because I'd bet $1000 this is his problem. I had the grain right, but never took him off grass.

GoinJettin - 2013-07-06 9:44 AM


Thanks for the information.  

I was curious, we have always fed Alfalfa hay, as close to as 100% alfalfa as possible.  We do not feed free choice........depending on the horse they get between 18-22 pounds of it a day. We have personally never had issues with high protein or attitude changes with it.  Maybe no attitude changes because they are always on it and don't get switched back and forth from grass/grass hay/alfalafa. 

brlracerchick - 2013-07-06 10:22 AM When they do eat grass, when do you start to notice symptoms? 

annemarea - 2013-07-06 9:55 AM  Both of mine did somewhat improve while still on grass, but made major headway once taken off of pasture. That seemed to make the biggest difference. Again, with grasses the sugar levels will greatly fluctuate with seasons, drought, etc. Early morning grass will have its lowest NSC, while late evening grass will have its highest NSC. I tried using a grazing muzzle and even 1-2 hour/day turnout for my mare , but her symptoms would return. I finally just built her a pen to dry lot her with free choice hay. When I put the gelding in with her, he finally began to stand still to be groomed and saddled. So, I know my grass must be pretty high in NSC's.

Three 4 Luck - 2013-07-06 10:56 AM


 I always plant ryegrass in the fall and I know that stuff is very high in sugar. My native summer grass is touted as being good for weight gain in cattle, so I bet it's high in sugar as well.  I couldn't stand him on grain. He did much better on Patriot Sr with Healthy Glo added. I always thought it was because he was ulcer prone. I never did figure out why he would seem to be coming on as a barrel horse and then regress, and he perpetually acted body sore, hated grooming.  I couldn't get him to run out of the 4d even tho he was fully capable of being a winner.  He didn't seem to have the want-to to go faster.  It made me sick when I sold him because I had him so stinkin broke and fun to just ride around--I had invested 3 years in him, but slow is not my thing.  Maybe this info will help his new owner.  When she first bought him, he didn't get ridden for the first week and then acted pretty nasty his first ride back which was out of character for him as a mature horse, or at least it was after I switched his feed more than 2 years prior. I'm not sure what they fed him, but it all fits. 

perfectturns - 2013-07-06 12:08 PM Thank you for posting this! I have been trying to figure out what was wrong with my 4 year old for a long time. She has all of the symptoms and now I feel terrible for getting after her when she was misbehaving due to being in pain. She has even gotten to the point where I can't catch her in a 12 X 12 stall and just doesn't want to be messed with. I'm looking forward to changing her diet and hopefully seeing a change in her. annemarea, what do you suggest I start with?

rodeoveteran - 2013-07-06 1:00 PM

I owned my mare for 5 years before she actually tied up and my vet suggested tha she had PSSM. I was already familiar with it through a friend with a severe case. Never suspected it in my horse tho'. As I changed her feed program and began to see improvement, her history began to make more sense. She was always sensitive to brushing her back, she absolutely refused to "give her chin" (which in turn streatches her back muscles), and constantly battling lamenesses we could not find the source of.

Add to all of this, I battled her ovaries for 7 years. After her PSSM "diagnosis" (she has never been tested), it made the fiinal decision to spay her much easier. She is out of a pretty in demand bloodline and I had been trying to breed her to sort out her ovary issues. I decided that responsible thing to do was NOT to pass on this genetic condition.

The one thing I have not been able to bring myself to do is take her completely off of grass. My horses get 4-8 hours of grass if and when we have it. She does not take being isolated from the herd very well.....sigh

Funny thing is when I DID have her at a trainer's she actually improved as she was stall kept (and ridden most days) and on a pelleted feed rather than grain I'm guessing that the feed was probably lower startch than she had been getting. He also comented that she was worse with time off and better when worked every day. Sound familiar?

Barnmom - 2013-07-06 1:10 PM Annemarea, did you find that your horses seemed to ride "up" instead of "down" before the diet change?  The longer you stayed on them the more amped up they got, always seemed ready to explode even when you got them tired? 

rodeoveteran - 2013-07-06 2:09 PM Actually, my mare can get SUPER lazy and the one I used to have that got "amped" up got no benefit from the feed change. There was no return from an adrenaline charge unless you had a LOT of stamina...and I never had that much. I have Fibromyalgia, so I have always equated the two in my mind as far as what it is like, tho the causes are different. I am wondering if taking her completely off of grass would "cure" her stupidity about going back to the trailer. I hauled her with another horse two days in a row, and she got SO stupid she turned dangerous. She ended up slamming in to the side of another horse and rider and IT went off bucking, despite my best efforts to control her. (Contolling her "out of control" is like trying t control a bus! She is a BIG girl!). It would be VERY hard on me to not tuen her out on grass with the rest of the herd. Horses were made to eat grass.....sigh....

bingo - 2013-07-06 5:24 PM I too had my horse 'hair tested" through the AQHA. He too came up negative but I bet he would be positive if muscle biopsy was performed. I modified his diet a long time ago and it is what makes the difference along w/good quality daily exercise, and staying off grass IS A MUST. It seems whenever man gets in the way of mother nature, like when we take over it's breeding programs, things get messed up eventually. I sure hope we get accurate information on what blood lines are carrying these genes so we stop breeding them.

appycowgirl - 2013-07-07 12:52 PM Also, along these lines I would aslo like to talk about MH (Malignant Hyperthermia). This is another dominant genetic disease and the researchers have stated that it comes from two lines in the QH industry and is found in less then 1% of the QH and QH related populations. MH can kill your horse as it can cause them to overheat while under certain types of anesthesia and there has been reports of horses dying out on pasture or one stud who over heated and died while breeding a mare or horses becoming overheated and dying while being exercised or shown. MH can also cause a horse to tie up as well. So far, on the Forum, we had one lady who reported that her gelding, who was positive for PSSM was also positive for MH. Then, I had another pedigree that was shared with me of a stud, no longer in breeding service, who was negative for PSSM1, but was positive for MH. Now, both this gelding and the stud goes back onto one of the bloodlines that was pedigree mapped by the University of MN. The gelding traces back to Eddie Cinco (Eddie x Miss Ogallala) and the stud traces back to Eddie 60 (Eddie x Miss Ogallala). These two studs, Eddie Cinco and Eddie 60 are full brothers and in one of the research papers on MH, the researchers states that it is a subset of a family that was being researched. Also, on the research paper that does pedigree map EC, SDB and PI, on Eddie Cinco's pedigree mapping, they do have an arrow pointed at his dam, Miss Ogallala and the researchers state that where there is an arrow, it says that there is witness accounts that talk about the behaviour and problems with the horse that makes the researchers believe that this was probably a positive horse. I strongly suspect that this cross of Eddie x Ms Ogallala is one of the two sources of MH and I would highly recommend that anyone who has this in their horse's bloodlines, do a test for MH if you only plan to do the PSSM Type 1 DNA test. If you are doing Animal Genetics or AQHA's 5 panel test, then MH is covered in the 5 panel test. Animal Genetics cost is $95 for the 5 panel and the AQHA's 5 panel test cost is $85.

appycowgirl - 2013-07-07 12:30 PM When people are asking about bloodlines in the barrel horses, we just aren't quite sure as we don't have a ton of positive pedigrees to try to figure out possible sources. I have my suspicions of some lines like the mare FL Lady Bug an I have suspected Moon Deck. I'm not sure how many people are familiar with the mare Ms Wahini Bug? She, herself is positive for PSSM and has 3 foals out there that I know of, Ms Shoo Bug, Ms Perky Bug and Wahini Cash that are positive for PSSM. This mare goes back onto those lines that I suspect. Then, I also know of 2 positive horses from the stallion AR Star and he also goes back onto that Moon Deck and FL Lady Bug line and then on the PSSM Forum we had another barrel horse reported as positive and it was through his sire as the dam tested negative and that sire goes back on Moon Deck. The University of MN did pedigree research and listed the initials of EC, SDB and PI. We believe the EC to be Eddie Cinco, the SDB to be Sonny Dee Bar and PI to be Pretty Impressive. With the positive pedigrees that we have on the Forum, which is over 250, these names have definitely shown up in many of the positives when it comes to QHs, Paints and Apps. Now, in the Apps, the stallion Dreamfinder is a major suspect as we have numerous sons and daughters and ancestors of his that are coming up positive. Now, for Dreamfinder, he goes back on a stallion named Roan Hancock who is appearing in numerous positive pedigrees and seems to be the main player in the foundation QHs that are turning up positive. Personally, I do not suspect Joe Hancock himself as there are several other horses with him in their pedigree that are NOT coming up positive, so we suspect that the PSSM probably came through on his dam. Now, with mentioning Roan Hancock, we have had numerous positives show up that have Two Eyed Jack in their pedigree. I will say that both the Pitzer Ranch manager's wife along with other numerous TEJ owners do not believe that he is not the PSSM problem and they think it is the mares instead that he was bred to. Now, there was a lady who did talk to the ranch manager's wife and she did state that they were breeding P1/P1 mares to their studs that are n/P1 and they do list those positive studs on their website and have listed them in their catalouges. I highly commend Pitzer Ranch for being open and honest on their stud's statuses. Back here about a month or so ago, I had a lady who shared with me a 199 page dissertation that was written by Dr. Molly McCue and on page 77 it states that most of their PSSM1 positive horses in the research herd, went back onto the stallion WRD and he went back to YJ. Now, we believe that WRD stands for Waggoners Rainy Day and of course he goes back on Yellow Jacket. Back about a year or so ago, several of the folks on the PSSM Forum, who have been studying these positive pedigrees came out with the thoughts that most of this is coming from three horses, which of course has been mentioned before from the researchers. Those 3 horses are Yellow Jacket, Yellow Wolf and Midnight and all 3 of these horses goes back on the mare Mittie Stephens. Lately, we have started to have positive pedigrees that have been reported that don't have SDB, PI, EC or even Roan Hancock, but they definitely have one or two or even all 3 of those three suspects that many people on the Forum feel are sources. The main thing in all of this is that every time we look at any of these pedigrees prior to them being tested, we can see where there is a chance for the horse to test out positive, so the biggest thing is to get people educated about PSSM and to get folks to request testing before purchasing or breeding to someone's stud and to test their mares as well. Right now, the researchers state that anywhere between 6 to 12% of the QH and QH related breeds are positive for PSSM and out of that, anywhere between 90 to 75% are positive for PSSM Type 1 and the other 10 to 25% are positive for Type 2. So, it is just best to DNA test and know and if you are having problems with your horse and it does come back negative for Type 1, have your vet do a blood panel and have them specifically test the CK and AST levels. If those are elevated, your next step would be to do a muscle biopsy to check for Type 2.

annemarea - 2013-07-07 4:06 PM Barnmom, 

I asked the exact same question since I had been keeping them dry lotted. The vet at LSU could not answer it and my email to the University went unanswered. Not sure what the answer is!



I can try to send another email asking the lady that mailed my results to me and see if I get a response.

OregonBR - 2013-07-07 4:15 PM

Thanks for all the information. Great thread!  

Barnmom - 2013-07-07 4:20 PM


Thanks!

I am going to at least have my mare tested for PSSM1, from her pedigree it sure looks like she may be positive for it.  Take a look at Slash J Harletta on allbreed, that mare goes back to Mittie Stephens about six times.  Not trying to pick on that mare (SJH) since she is one of the best producers in this industry but certainly something to keep in mind. 

Thanks so much for this post!  I knew there was something going on with my mare and she is way too nice to give up on.  Maybe if I can get her feed program right she will quit trying to randomly launch me out of the saddle.  Just switching her from a COB mix to Ultium has made a huge change.  I may have to suck it up and drylot her as much as I hate to. Probably need to look for sugar free cookies too, she would hate me if she didn't get her cookies, LOL.

 

appycowgirl - 2013-07-07 12:30 PM

When people are asking about bloodlines in the barrel horses, we just aren't quite sure as we don't have a ton of positive pedigrees to try to figure out possible sources. I have my suspicions of some lines like the mare FL Lady Bug an I have suspected Moon Deck.

I'm not sure how many people are familiar with the mare Ms Wahini Bug? She, herself is positive for PSSM and has 3 foals out there that I know of, Ms Shoo Bug, Ms Perky Bug and Wahini Cash that are positive for PSSM. This mare goes back onto those lines that I suspect. Then, I also know of 2 positive horses from the stallion AR Star and he also goes back onto that Moon Deck and FL Lady Bug line and then on the PSSM Forum we had another barrel horse reported as positive and it was through his sire as the dam tested negative and that sire goes back on Moon Deck.

The University of MN did pedigree research and listed the initials of EC, SDB and PI. We believe the EC to be Eddie Cinco, the SDB to be Sonny Dee Bar and PI to be Pretty Impressive. With the positive pedigrees that we have on the Forum, which is over 250, these names have definitely shown up in many of the positives when it comes to QHs, Paints and Apps. Now, in the Apps, the stallion Dreamfinder is a major suspect as we have numerous sons and daughters and ancestors of his that are coming up positive.

Now, for Dreamfinder, he goes back on a stallion named Roan Hancock who is appearing in numerous positive pedigrees and seems to be the main player in the foundation QHs that are turning up positive. Personally, I do not suspect Joe Hancock himself as there are several other horses with him in their pedigree that are NOT coming up positive, so we suspect that the PSSM probably came through on his dam.

Now, with mentioning Roan Hancock, we have had numerous positives show up that have Two Eyed Jack in their pedigree. I will say that both the Pitzer Ranch manager's wife along with other numerous TEJ owners do not believe that he is not the PSSM problem and they think it is the mares instead that he was bred to. Now, there was a lady who did talk to the ranch manager's wife and she did state that they were breeding P1/P1 mares to their studs that are n/P1 and they do list those positive studs on their website and have listed them in their catalouges. I highly commend Pitzer Ranch for being open and honest on their stud's statuses.

Back here about a month or so ago, I had a lady who shared with me a 199 page dissertation that was written by Dr. Molly McCue and on page 77 it states that most of their PSSM1 positive horses in the research herd, went back onto the stallion WRD and he went back to YJ. Now, we believe that WRD stands for Waggoners Rainy Day and of course he goes back on Yellow Jacket.

Back about a year or so ago, several of the folks on the PSSM Forum, who have been studying these positive pedigrees came out with the thoughts that most of this is coming from three horses, which of course has been mentioned before from the researchers. Those 3 horses are Yellow Jacket, Yellow Wolf and Midnight and all 3 of these horses goes back on the mare Mittie Stephens.

Lately, we have started to have positive pedigrees that have been reported that don't have SDB, PI, EC or even Roan Hancock, but they definitely have one or two or even all 3 of those three suspects that many people on the Forum feel are sources.

The main thing in all of this is that every time we look at any of these pedigrees prior to them being tested, we can see where there is a chance for the horse to test out positive, so the biggest thing is to get people educated about PSSM and to get folks to request testing before purchasing or breeding to someone's stud and to test their mares as well.

Right now, the researchers state that anywhere between 6 to 12% of the QH and QH related breeds are positive for PSSM and out of that, anywhere between 90 to 75% are positive for PSSM Type 1 and the other 10 to 25% are positive for Type 2.
So, it is just best to DNA test and know and if you are having problems with your horse and it does come back negative for Type 1, have your vet do a blood panel and have them specifically test the CK and AST levels. If those are elevated, your next step would be to do a muscle biopsy to check for Type 2.

Barnmom - 2013-07-08 4:21 PM How much does the muscle biopsy run and is it a painful deal for your horse?

Also, can I just go through the local extension agent for hay testing or do I need to go somewhere more specialized? 

We feed peanut hay, similar to alfalfa, but I would feel better knowing exactly what is in it since we feed out of the same field year round.

hoofs_in_motion - 2013-07-11 10:30 AM A vet suggested my mare had PSSM due to being diagnosed with Fibrotic Myopathy, so I put her on a high fat/low starch diet. Even before then I didn't notice any symptoms, other than her being lazy occasionally. Her maternal grandsire was recently diagnosed with PSSM, I'm looking at getting my mare tested to see....but can PSSM be passed along from the grandsire? What other symptoms would I need to look for?

appycowgirl - 2013-07-09 4:02 PM Your cooperatives as a great place to start to try to find someone to test your hay and you can also talk to folks around you that do grow hay and see where they go for testing, plus, even ask the people that you are purchasing the hay from to see if they may have tested their hay. The hardest thing about recommending any one particular hay to someone for their PSSM horse is that there is so many variables. The time of day that the hay was cut, at what stage of growth it was cut and even soil conditions can affect the NSCs of hay. Like a vet in MT that has a PSSM horse will recommend alfalfa and my vet in WY will recommend grass hay to his clients. I think testing or asking for test results is the best way to go and then if you see good consistencies year after year from your hay suppliers, then you'll know what you should and shouldn't buy. Also, when it comes to grains for horses, people really need to be careful. Some feeds will claim they are low starch but yet their NSCs might be in the 18% mark, which come PSSM horses just can't handle it. Just like the University of MN recommends Ultium, but some horses can't handle the NSCs of that feed and need even lower NSCs. Then, some feeds add chromium and that is a big no, no as well for PSSM horses. It is fine for horses with RER, but not PSSM.

CarrieH77 - 2013-07-11 12:07 PM Do you know why chromium should not be in the diet?   

hoofs_in_motion - 2013-07-11 12:30 PM

A vet suggested my mare had PSSM due to being diagnosed with Fibrotic Myopathy, so I put her on a high fat/low starch diet. Even before then I didn't notice any symptoms, other than her being lazy occasionally. Her maternal grandsire was recently diagnosed with PSSM, I'm looking at getting my mare tested to see....but can PSSM be passed along from the grandsire? What other symptoms would I need to look for?

annemarea - 2013-07-06 10:30 AM


 With my mare, within 24 hours or the next day when I go to saddle up and ride. And it usually takes days/weeks to get her back where she was. My mare seems to improve faster than the gelding. He has a slow but steady improvement and it kinda made me second guess myself. But now I know I was right. He just was so similar acting to my mare in so many ways. He's really turning into a love bug now that he realizes being touched wont hurt like it used to.

txaggiegal - 2013-07-11 11:49 PM   Any of your mares act marish when touched like they had an ovary cyst or tumor? I have a mare that I am suspecting now. Her ultrasounds are clean, no cysts or tumors. She squells when touched and is super sensitive. I have had training issues with her and had two vets shoot xrays and still no answers. It is more work to get her to work than it is worth. When I started her she was nice and had a good work ethic, never bucked and was dry lotted with a round bale and strategy. Now she is on pasture 24/7. She is double bred Moon Deck and I will be sending off hair. Thank you for your insights and journey!

BARRELHORSE USA - 2013-07-14 3:40 AM Has it ever occurred to you that PSSM is another vet // drug company fad to make a lot of money on a long term basis. If you look at so many of these fad diseases that are diagnosed ... they have all shown up after Genetically Engineered grains like the ethanol corn wastes were added to feed and beet pulp which is also trash left over from sugar beet processing. Look at your feed tags and find one named grain you find there ... don't you thing all this trash you never heard of or can't pronounce might be the root cause and shutting down enzymes or gut bacteria in your horses. All of these extruded grains with no names have heavy metal and weird chemicals applied to them in order to get the main product out of them. When various heavy metals, over dosed supplements of vitamins and minerals and other crap build up in a horses system he starts falling apart muscle wise and nerve command center shuts down. Keep in mind a horses skeleton is only held together and supported by muscles and a few ligaments ... It is like the money making ruse that AQHA is doing trying to scare everyone into getting the 5 panel tests done at a good profit for them and their favorite labs. Try to find the actual ingredients in any sack of Purina or the other over priced feeds ... no can do ... it is amazing what kind of trash feeds we buy and the number of vaccines we shoot our horses with year after year .... don't you think after a while all this crap is going to accumulate in a horses organs and start shutting him and down and the best thing a vet can come up with is plain grass hay along with some deep muscle//organ antibiotics .... which tells you a whole lot right there .. It is the same thing with fast food or food served in restaurants ... you have no idea if the hamburger is real or pink slime or actual country of origin ... how much mercury or other contaminants in fish/seafood or what. Look at your neighbors kids ... since yours are perfect ... and ask yourself ... Dang, what happened to them... lol Just a dumb theory of mine ... but I think doing sonograms on human unborn babies is one of the most unhealthy things you can do ... the low radio shock waves can screw up a kids brain and DNA just so they can make more money running worthless tests and charging it to insurance companies which ups the premium costs. If you disagree ... go back to early 1980's until now and see how frequently and how much fun it is to check on baby with pictures and what sex it is and the increase in all the ADDHYXZ'z when diagnosed old kid is given more drugs and the rise in autism is huge ... along with the crap that is in kid vaccines ... It is funny that those of us that were raised on chickens with dirty feathers, crippled calves that would not bring a good price at sale barn, bacon grease in everything, more gravy, heavily buttered anything, hogs that were too fat, raw milk and beans and taters with only home baked pies, cakes and cookies that would grow mold on them if not eaten in a few days instead of being labeled .. Best eaten before 12.31.2014 .... and of course we had to work and play outside all day long ... IMO horses and kids are fed too much crap, not worked enough and given too many drugs, supplements and unknown trash foods .... and who did it to them .... WE DID!!

BARRELHORSE USA - 2013-07-14 4:40 AM Has it ever occurred to you that PSSM is another vet // drug company fad to make a lot of money on a long term basis.

annemarea - 2013-07-14 11:04 AM

 No, it hasn't occurred to me, and I'll tell you why.  While I believe in what you are saying following this statement, believing this particular statement would be like me saying that I don't believe in science, but I do believe in the Easter Bunny. 
Have you ever heard of Monday Morning Sickness??  It was around way before genetically modified grains.  Also, how is it that taking my horses off of grass made all the difference?  Kinda doesn't make sense to me.  And why are only some horses affected, while others you can load up with grain and never skip a beat??  Nope, sorry....have to disagree.  But if that's what you want to believe, then be my guest.  Ignorance is bliss.

bingo - 2013-07-14 1:29 PM I wish BHUSA was correct, but I too have had way too much experience with the frustration caused by what I believe to be genetic disorders in some very talented horses. The best thing is to do the science and get to the truth of how we got to this point, why we got to this point, and how to correct this in the future. If that means we stop breeding certain blood lines, then that is what needs to be done. Here is a short synopsis on several of the genetic disorders we KNOW OF in AQHA blood lines. As for the AQHA, I heard if you breed to more than 15 horses a year, you must now have your stallions tested. ALL stallions should be tested if they are breeding, as far as I'm concerned. And not just these "hair sample tests". From what I've read that only tells you if your horse has Type 1 PSSM. Type II requires a muscle biopsy. Here is a link to AQHA diseases we KNOW exist: http://manc.umd.edu/Abstracts2010/LenzHYPP%20abstract.pdf

appycowgirl - 2013-07-14 2:11 PM Barlracrchick, there is several suspects back there as I have suspected Sugar Bars and then I saw the made Flit who traces to Julie W and I have suspected Julie W as well. I'm still out on whether Colonel Freckles could be a possible suspect or not. I've seen positives with him in there and of course others who have tested out negative as well.

brlracerchick - 2013-07-14 2:21 PM


Thanks. We've been battling an unknown soreness in this mare for quite awhile. I ended up giving her a year off and she seems better. She's now drylotted, grain has been cut in half, and only has a small window of grass time. I was just wondering if that change in her diet has helped even a little.  

appycowgirl - 2013-07-14 12:34 PM Also, BarrelHorseUSA, I remember back some time ago that I looked at some of your horses that you were offering, if this is the same person whose horses I looked at, and I saw several spots were some of your horses could be positive for PSSM. Of course a genetic disease panel will clear your horses and like someone else mentioned, whether you like it or not, if you own an AQHA stallion, you'll be forced to do the 5 panel on him in 2015 as ALL AQHA breeding stallions will be required to be tested.

Sharp - 2013-07-15 7:45 AM I did a lot of research on this 10 years ago while I was in college studying nutrition, so I have seen and personally dealt with this for a long time. As a trainer, the bloodlines that I have personally rode and trained with this problem were: Dash Ta Fame and Cash Not Credit. I also rode A LOT of FWF horses and none of them showed me symptoms, and here in Brazil the number one studs are also Sugar Bar bred, so TO ME, I don't think Sugar Bars is the problem. But that is just my opinion.

Sharp - 2013-07-15 5:45 AM I did a lot of research on this 10 years ago while I was in college studying nutrition, so I have seen and personally dealt with this for a long time. As a trainer, the bloodlines that I have personally rode and trained with this problem were: Dash Ta Fame and Cash Not Credit. I also rode A LOT of FWF horses and none of them showed me symptoms, and here in Brazil the number one studs are also Sugar Bar bred, so TO ME, I don't think Sugar Bars is the problem. But that is just my opinion.

kwanatha - 2013-07-15 3:25 PM


were these horses type 1 or type 2?

appycowgirl - 2013-07-14 2:11 PM Barlracrchick, there is several suspects back there as I have suspected Sugar Bars and then I saw the mare Flit who traces to Julie W and I have suspected Julie W as well. I'm still out on whether Colonel Freckles could be a possible suspect or not. I've seen positives with him in there and of course others who have tested out negative as well.

annemarea - 2013-07-14 11:04 AM  No, it hasn't occurred to me, and I'll tell you why.  While I believe in what you are saying following this statement, believing this particular statement would be like me saying that I don't believe in science, but I do believe in the Easter Bunny. 

Have you ever heard of Monday Morning Sickness??  It was around way before genetically modified grains.  Also, how is it that taking my horses off of grass made all the difference?  Kinda doesn't make sense to me.  And why are only some horses affected, while others you can load up with grain and never skip a beat??  Nope, sorry....have to disagree.  But if that's what you want to believe, then be my guest.  Ignorance is bliss.

Three 4 Luck - 2013-07-15 12:35 PM I had one that was a distinct possiblity for a PSSM diagnosis, and he never got anything except whole oats and hay before I owned him and that's what I fed him while I had him (96-04), with the exception of a brief foray into sweet feed, which didn't last long because he didn't look good or run good while on it.  He wasn't on fresh grass, just oats and grass hay with a vit/mineral. This horse didn't have symptoms as severe as the horse I just sold, and had a lot more grit about him, but he stayed sore a lot for no discernable reason.  And always bucked warming up.  He had to be ridden A LOT during the week to keep him winning.  Not just daily, but hard and long every day.  If you didn't take the time to work him during the week like he needed, you might as well stay home.  I always thought it was a mental thing with him, but now I'm questioning.

Sharp - 2013-07-15 10:59 AM


I don't know. I did not have them tested with muscle biopsies. I did, however, do a blood test with a vet before and after exercise and the levels of CK, AST and LDH were extremely elevated and fit the same characteristics as horses with PSSM or EPSM. And ALL of the horses were fixable with a diet low in starch and high in fat. I did also use Lactnase and Robaxin (methacarbomal) on these horses but was able to wean them off of them in time.

Edited to say - I am training a futurity horse now, for next year, that is out of a DTF mare and she is showing symptoms also, so I modified her diet and she is a different horse - for the better. So even without a muscle biopsy, I feel safe to assume that she has PSSM.

Sharp - 2013-07-15 7:45 AM

I did a lot of research on this 10 years ago while I was in college studying nutrition, so I have seen and personally dealt with this for a long time.

As a trainer, the bloodlines that I have personally rode and trained with this problem were: Dash Ta Fame and Cash Not Credit. I also rode A LOT of FWF horses and none of them showed me symptoms, and here in Brazil the number one studs are also Sugar Bar bred, so TO ME, I don't think Sugar Bars is the problem. But that is just my opinion.

Chance Of Rein - 2013-07-15 11:04 PM

For those of you with diagnosed horses, what kind of behavior issues did you see besides soreness and bucking? My sister was telling me about this thread so I read it. Some things fit a gelding I have but not completely. I looked at his pedigree tonight and lost count of how many times it goes back to Midnight along with Yellow Jacket and some Yellow Wolf.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/zip+me+jr


Sometimes he will act a little sore. I've had him adjusted 3 times since I got him back this spring. He has never offered to buck but he will get horse sour when we haul him. He has a hard time keeping all 4 feet still when I just want him to stand by other horses when I'm riding him. It isn't just bad behavior or spoiled. It is like an adrenaline rush that you can't shut down and you can't ride it out of him. I suspected ulcers right after I bought him. He has been treated for them twice and the only grain he gets is either safe choice or triumph, which are supposed to be low starch and he gets mostly alfalfa hay. He had never been on pasture until the last 6 weeks. I haven't noticed any change in his behavior being on it but I am wondering if I need to try something else. Before I bought him, the trainer who did his training (big name national APHA trainer from a western pleasure barn) told me he was a garbage horse. He "might" make an ok trail horse. He said he had all the talent in the world but wouldn't apply himself. I feel the same way about him some days. When he is good, he is the most awesome horse to ride. He is broke, broke, broke. Soft in the face, very responsive, and the smoothest ride ever. When he isn't good he is exhausting to deal with.

Is anyone else experiencing any of this type of behaviors?

daisycake123 - 2013-07-15 8:53 PM

I have a nice gelding as a young horse i rode him every day had no problem except hougwhen u carried him to a weekend show sat he would ride great and sun he would ride like he was going to lawn dart you he never,would but you always had that feeling and he was hock sore at a young age. Injected his,hocks every year he was more,than likely fusing, fast fwd was doing well my husbands ends up housebound and i work and take care of him. This horse is amazinly talented. the last year i carried him to the world. He was a bronc if you got him close to the arena rode away or in the stall area no problem. i rode him so hard that he had water running everwhere. Was walking in the warm up arena he slammed me i was riding up to the divider and just laid up against the pannels for at least 5 minutes a horse finally walked by i knew them got the to grab his bridle and got him in the arena, he ran but not like he can. I knew something was wrong i had to work the buck out every,day and them this. I have been trying to,figure outmwhat is,wrong with this horse. Everybody kept telling me that you are not showing so,therefore he is not in shape, xxx, and xxx. Thought at first he was bleeding, as i get is hocks done and teeth. But inoticed if youlet him set more that 3 or 4 days you had to d-buck him before you get on. Fast fwd in march i switched feeds went to a carb quars noticed his eyes went softer and he wasnot as fresh, went to a weekend show first week of june and he quit eating so:-)i gave him some tummy meds and when i got home i went to a low starch feed. Had the vet out says he is sore in the rear just got him injected hocks stifiles let him off that week we had rain on off the next week did notmride either and was busy last week could ride,sat saddled up,last night lunged himto,see if hemhad any buck, none. He had an absess and wa lame not too bed rode long enough to know he wasnot going to buck. But what has changed is his eyes have gotten soft and his personality is loveable, total differnt horse. So i am assuming we fixed the problem, is he is a nice horse i just didnot want to,give up. I m ssuming when i show next week we will have a different horse and i will always show him on preivcox so we dont have pain, really need to do the testing and talk to my vet. But i m happy that we have amgood chenge. He is a very nice horse and eye candy also. Willmore than li,ely get him bot sheet think it,will help the inflammation.

Chance Of Rein - 2013-07-15 11:38 PM

daisycake123 - 2013-07-19 8:47 PM Bump. I noticed my horse that i am soon to be tested. But,diet change has help has slowed down in stall,waking he just stands in front of his,fans. Hey this,horsemsweats a lot when we get it under more control will the swearing decrease. I just kmow he looks more relaxed. When we haul long,distances he is a nervious wrexh when i take him off the trailer.

upscowpatty - 2013-07-19 10:40 PM I haven't read all the posts, but wanted to ask a question.  I have a PSB mare that the chiro came to adjust.....2 years ago I think.  She was TIGHT in her hips, and she let him know it.  We discussed PSSM, and he said that the Nutrena Safe Choice was a good feed for this.  He came back the next month to check her, and she was going to kick him....I had to twitch her to let him even touch her.  I am SO glad to see some of this information. She has always seemed to dislike being brushed...she will buck unless you lunge her, and has all the talent in the world, but just won't finish her barrels because she is too busy running!!  Anyway, could go on and on, but I am going to send off her sample as soon as possible.  Do yall know if this Nutrena feed is good?  I priced the Purina L/S and it is like $25 here.  I think that is what I remember...the Safe Choice is not as high.  Good information on this, thank you all so much!!!! 

wyoming barrel racer - 2013-07-20 4:31 PM

T.H.E. can make a formula for horses with PSSM. Let me know if I can answer any questions. Their formula is sugar free too for those that didn't already know that. 

daisycake123 - 2013-07-20 7:45 PM

Bump my buckers only been rode 1 time in 2 weeks saddled up and rode off better today. I been feeding blue seal l/s feed. How do,you tell on the tag what sugar content its is in it. I also feed cool caleries fat suppliment and i 8 oz cup of alfalfal pellets and some beet pulp and alfala cubes soaked as well as 2 flakes of hay. I with the other poster need to know how much vit e and selinum i know we are diffent here as well how much maginesisum.

Cashbaby - 2013-07-23 11:52 PM In 2005 or 2006 I had a mare that was just "sore". She never tied up. She was 7 years old, patterned and I was starting to really haul her when things became really noticable. Besides often having a sore back the most noticable things she did were : 1.Tripped on her hind end at the walk and trot (like she was stepping in a hole.) 2.Had trouble holding her leads in the hind, around the barrels, during a run. 3.Tail wringing during runs. 4. Stopping while going up hills. 5. Rarely rolled but often laid down in the pasture. 6.Had a very poor attitude if kept in a stall (on road trips would pin her ears when anyone came near the stall.) 7. VERY easy keeper (actually lost weight very quickly once oil was added to the diet) 8. Short, choppy gait. She was never a hot horse. She never, ever bucked or reared or even through much a fit. Most people never knew there was something actually wrong with her. They probably thought she was a "b" and maybe not super athletic or maybe she was not "happy" being a barrel horse. Or maybe they thought she was spoiled. The things people said most often about my horse were "You should spank her when she trips like that then she'll stop being so lazy on her hind and start picking her hind feet up. She's just being lazy. She is just being lazy going around the barrels when she is not changing her leads in the hind end like that. or she is young, probably not strong enough to hold her leads around the barrel yet. Get her working off her hind end to fix that." Well, that probably is true in very young horses but she was 7, well muscled and been patterned for the past 1 and 1/2 years or so. Knowing what I know now, my response would be "I have a lazy horse and he moves slowly but correctly." She was a Paint horse. I have never "named names" as far as what blood line I suspect but I was reading on a site today that said the Type 1 has been traced back through draft breeds, Morgans , Thorobreds ect and far back in European breeds but not Arabs. Type 2 has been found in Arabs, QH, Paints TB's ect. Which is confusing because Arabs along with TB's and drafts were all foundation horses in the QH blood lines............... So if that is the case then how can they blame one or two blood lines in the QH/Paint breed for Type 2 PSSM? Now I just made my own head spin. Not that I don't want to know and maybe if boils down to a lack of data at this point, as in not enough people have actually done the follow up biopsy after the + ( or -) hair test with Arab horse for instance. I really don't ever want to put that much time,effort and money into a horse that the deck is stacked against right from the get go, in the future, if I can avoid it.

rodeoveteran - 2013-07-27 2:53 PM Since you brought this thread back up, can anu of you give me an idea of how long after removal from grass that I might see ANY kind of change? I changed her diet several years ago, but at that time grass was not not recommended. At this point in time I want to see if taking her off grass would make a difference in her "I want to go back to the trailer NOW!" Attitude. Especially when hauled with another horse. AT home she could care less if she is away from the herd when I am riding. Is just as lazy coming home as she is leaving. But on the road it is a WHOLE 'nother story.

aggie5184 - 2013-08-01 11:14 AM What is everyone using as a fat supplement?

Three 4 Luck - 2013-07-16 11:20 AM The horse I suspect of being PSSM was by Dr Nick Bar and out of a mare that goes back to Moon Deck 3 times.  Man, I wish I could have a do-over with him!   

SlashD - 2013-08-24 5:27 PM

 Reading this makes me sick! now that I have read this and looking back on my stud I sold. A little light has come on. When I lived in the Buffalo area. I kept him stalled And he was on A low starch low sugar feet. Man you talk about smooth when he turned a barrel. When I went through my divorce I put him on pasture and oats and OMG! Be would buck he was like riding a jack hammer around a barrel. I was moving out of one house into another and I stalled him at my sisters he had NO pasture I took him off oats and once again had him on a Low starch low sugar feed and he was turning smooth again. When I got into my new place he was on pasture. His back was always sore, he would buck, He turned a barrel so hard it screwed up my back. The woman that leased him had him on pasture with Oats and cracked corn. He came back lame once his issues were fixed he was still lame. I ended up selling him as a breeding stallion only and he is still lame and the vets don't know why! He is on a 2 acr pasture and Omolene 200.

Runnin-Lil-Chick - 2013-08-24 9:34 PM

This post was probably the greatest piece of information I have read on BHW and want to thank you for posting this. My sister has an extremely talented mare who did not want anybody to catch her and got to the point of being dangerous at times. Once caught she would flinch when brushed and you could see her tense when being saddled. She had an attitude when it came to loping circles and wouldn't extend out instead road like a jackhammer. She would throw fits over small things like asking her to counter arc or collect up. Over the winter while the grass was dead and she was on grass hay 24/7, she had decreased symptoms, but this spring and summer things were even worse than in the past. We had tried many things from switching saddles & bits to the chiropractor, vet, and equine dentist, but nothing seemed to make a difference. I came across this article just as all of us were reaching our last straw and were starting to think it was just her personality.

After reading this everything began to click into place with her signs and symptoms. I am now happy to say that we have made changes to her diet and exercise schedule and three weeks into the changes we have a horse that will lope relaxed circles and is back on track in the exhibitioning and seasoning process. She is a sweetheart on the ground and will actually come up to you in the pasture to be scratched. She is a completely different horse! I am so glad that you brought this to light to help all of us!

kwanatha - 2013-08-25 11:03 AM

I would basically avoid anything that is claimed to help in the uptake of glucose.

roxieannie - 2013-08-25 11:09 AM

 https://www.facebook.com/groups/202978353056065/
do a search on fb, pssm forums
hope this helps