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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| The yearling I posted about a couple weeks ago, with the guttural pouch infection. Went off his feed a couple days ago.
Vet was out this morning.
He has kidney failure.
Going to put him on fluids for 3 days to try to save him.
Any experiences with this? Successful or not? |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
  
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Oh no so sorry to hear this, never experience this with a horse but my best buddy that was a cat had it and it was not good. Was long and drawn out, I had to but him to sleep about 3 weeks ago.  |
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Impressive!!
Posts: 1954
Location: Idaho | My now 12 yr old gelding was diagnosed with kidney failure in 2007. He was under IV fluid and vet care for a week with about a 20% chance of living. By miracle, his levels started going back to "normal"... If you yearling makes it threw, the biggest thing is to monitor your horses diet. Little protien, Red Cell ® supplement, grass hay, etc... I have been very lucky that my gelding actually has been able to return back to work as a barrel horse and is still going strong, but his diet is everything! We have checked his levels, and his BUN, Creatine and RBC are still of a horse with kdiney failure. However, vets have been impressed with how I have maintained him. I DO NOT feed processed feed to him, I DO NOT give any pain killers like butte, banamine, etc... and he does not get the strangles vaccination. He does not get pasture. It has become easier to maintain him, but I wish you luck! It was not easy but its been a successful almost 7 years since he was last at the hospital, so there is hope for your horse!
Good luck and you're welcome to msg me if you have questions!  |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I am sorry to hear your loss :(
I'm glad you were able to save him. I hope my guy can pull through as well. Monitoring his diet would be easy for me to do. I am glad to hear you had such good results. Thanks for your response. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| for your guy. |
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 Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | Do you know what his creatinine levels were? Besids the fluids, low protein/starch with high fiber. Good luck! |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | I will say some prayers |
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 I Am Always Right
Posts: 4264
Location: stray dump capital of the world | Sending prayers... |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I do not know what his creatine levels were.
They called and said he ate his supper good.
He didn't eat breakfast real well.
Fluids are working well, he is urinating often.
They said he is improving.
Waiting on labs to come back.
It's going to drive me nuts not knowing what caused this :/ |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | sending prayers your way |
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 It Goes On
Posts: 2262
Location: Muskogee, OK | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-03 10:45 AM I do not know what his creatine levels were. They called and said he ate his supper good. He didn't eat breakfast real well. Fluids are working well, he is urinating often. They said he is improving. Waiting on labs to come back. It's going to drive me nuts not knowing what caused this :/
Has he been on any antibiotics lately--- Aminoglycosides in particular? I've seen some horrible renal failure cases due to this sort of toxicity. There are some other toxic plants and such out there that can cause this as well. Sure hope you can figure it out and get your boy on the mend. |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | My stud did that, he was foundering and just went over the edge. Off feed and water and his kidney damage was beyond repair. Had a cat do it too. Not sure what was wrong with the cat, maybe just too old. Hope yours continues to improve |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | How is your colt doing? |
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 Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
Location: Opelousas, LA | Prayers that your colt is doing better |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Well, they increased his fluid. He continues to eat and drink and he is pooping and ironist ing. However his blood work has not changed since he has been there Wednesday afternoon.
He WAS on antibiotics for his guttural pouch infection. Banamine, potassium penicillin, gentamicin, DMSO and yeast. Then On tucoprim powder and banamine.
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 If it Ain't a Paint it Ain't!
Posts: 8519
Location: Mansfield, Tx | |
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It Goes On
Posts: 2262
Location: Muskogee, OK | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-04 1:38 PM Well, they increased his fluid. He continues to eat and drink and he is pooping and ironist ing. However his blood work has not changed since he has been there Wednesday afternoon. He WAS on antibiotics for his guttural pouch infection. Banamine, potassium penicillin, gentamicin, DMSO and yeast. Then On tucoprim powder and banamine.
Gentamicin (an aminoglycoside) could surely do this. Have they told you what the specific gravity of his urine is? Unfortunately at this point I think all you can really do is push the fluids through him and wait. The bad deal with renal failure is it takes a large portion of the kidney to be damaged before the horse starts actually showing signs.
Praying for your boy! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| No they haven't.
Just said his creatine levels are still very high
How many days should you push fluids until you know you aren't going to be able to Help him?
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| He has been on fluids for 48 hours with no changes.
Now they are recommending peritoneal dialysis.
Any experience with it?
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | No but many prayers.. I agree the antibiotics most likely did this. |
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It Goes On
Posts: 2262
Location: Muskogee, OK | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-04 3:19 PM He has been on fluids for 48 hours with no changes. Now they are recommending peritoneal dialysis. Any experience with it?
I dont know enough about it to give you an accurate response.. But, from the cases I have seen with renal failure I think it is a last ditch effort. I believe it is pretty expensive with a lower success rate. I'm sorry :( |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I was afraid of that.
I've also now heard the guttural pouch infection could of been the cause of the kidney failure ?? |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Oh no sending more prayers for your fella |
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Impressive!!
Posts: 1954
Location: Idaho |
My gelding had colic surgery as a 2 yr old, reason to believe why his kidneys have failed, according to vets. However, good point on this, because I have to be very careful what I give my gelding, if he gets hurt, I actually prefer to give equine asprin instead of butte and try to avoid any pain medications in all. Antibiotics are another one I try to make sure he never gets. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | yes it can be the infection as well but some antibiotics are hard to flush thru the kidneys and can cause renal failure. Without fluids running constantly in them it can be hard on them.
MANY Prayers to your horse.. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Ok, say he is on fluids for 5 days.
The vet believes it wasnt antibiotics or the infection.
He believes it was something toxic.
I do not know what in the world it would be.
BUT if I go get him, what can I do to nurse him through, old fashioned TLC. No more meds. Just love and old fashioned prayer?
Feed, electrolytes, water, pasture.
I know this is a LONG shot. But I am not going to just put him down because they say he isn't improving. But I cannot spend another check book full of Money. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | for your read... Veterinarians categorize kidney disease based on the length of time the signs of illness have persisted and the severity of the disorder. Acute renal failure is a temporary and sometimes curable form of kidney disease. Its onset is triggered by a sudden cessation of waste excretion, accompanied by electrolyte and water imbalance. According to Schott, acute renal failure is most often caused by a loss of blood volume due to colic, diarrhea, hemorrhage or severe dehydration. Ingested toxins and antibiotics administered to a dehydrated horse also may contribute to the onset of the condition.
if horse was dehydrated when administered antibiotics it could cause issues.. as well.. as toxins..without knowing or being a vet .. Id talk to your vet ..
did he get alfalfa (blister beetles ) by any chance.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2013-10-05 8:08 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| We don't believed it was blister beetles because he was never colic-y, but I did ask them and they didn't think that was the case.
While he was home, he was on free choice electrolytes.
I doubt he was when he was there.
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 317
Location: MS | If you have a vet close that does acupuncture I'd try that. I had one renal colic that just wouldn't pull out of it. Acupuncture turned him around after the first treatment. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I believe giving banamine and gentamicin during his guttural pouch infection caused his kidneys to fail. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | so how is he today and what is your plans. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| He is still eating Nd drinking, bright and alert.
Urinating and pooping.
Didn't run blood today because its very expensive to run labs on Sunday.
Going to run labs in the morning.
He's coming home after.
Possibly doing fluids myself at home, partial days. Or slow drip.
Depends on what his bloodwork says in the morning.
Monitoring his diet and praying, a lot. |
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It Goes On
Posts: 2262
Location: Muskogee, OK | Just catching up with this.. Hoping to hear some better news. How did he do over the weekend?
As far as the antibiotics go, not all (in fact, very few) will cause renal failure. However, Aminoglycosides (which Gentamicin IS an aminoglycoside) can and have been shown through studies to cause toxic renal effects. I am surprised your vet isnt considering the fact that they could have caused this?
Hang in there! Something like this is so frustrating...not knowing what caused it and just having to wait it out hoping for the best. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 984
Location: Southwest Minnesota | I was wondering how your colt was doing...hoping and praying for good lab results in the morning. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Sending good thoughts and prayers for your horse tomorrow |
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 Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: Great NW | sending more prayers |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I cannot thank you guys enough for the prayers.
I haven't heard yet today and I have called but they have not called me back.
I hope, pray, for good news.
He did great over the weekend, eating, drinking, peeing, pooping, alert and playful they said.
Just no changes in blood work as of Saturday AM.
We shall see today.... |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-07 12:59 PM I cannot thank you guys enough for the prayers. I haven't heard yet today and I have called but they have not called me back. I hope, pray, for good news. He did great over the weekend, eating, drinking, peeing, pooping, alert and playful they said. Just no changes in blood work as of Saturday AM. We shall see today....
We are waiting to hear right along with you, let us know as soon as you hear |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| They just called :'(
No improvements in blood work, creatine levels still high.
The kidneys are not working on their own.
We are going to ultra sound this afternoon.
Then I'm bringing him home.
He said the results will be unfavorable outcome more than likely.
I hate this.
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm |  |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-07 2:25 PM They just called :'( No improvements in blood work, creatine levels still high. The kidneys are not working on their own. We are going to ultra sound this afternoon. Then I'm bringing him home. He said the results will be unfavorable outcome more than likely. I hate this.
I wish I could say its going to be all right, but only time will tell but heres a hug for you and I will keep sending him prayers |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I wish too.
Thank you.
I truly appreciate the thoughts & prayers. |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I wouldn't give up yet. Just keep supporting him and see what happens. I don't see how anyone can be absolutely sure gentamycin wasn't playing some role, especally when combined with sepsis and NSAIDS. All these things in combination can cause "acute renal failure" and the natural history of ARF is one where the kidneys recover....provided there isn't some ongoing insult to the kidneys. You can have people (and I presume horses as well) with ARF who platueau and show no improvement...then all of a sudden they start peeing like crazy and the creatinine drops. I'd quite checking lab work and just keep supporting the horse. He might bounce back! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| He has never quit urinating?
How many days of fluids should one do, before making the prediction he won't bounce back? I've heard 72 hours.
I'm still going, on ~120+ hours now. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Acute renal failure that is associated with good urine output has a better than average prognosis. Much easier to manage than if the kidneys have shut down completely. I'd keep going with supportive treatment. Gentamycin is a common cause of this...plus NSAIDS. If he is drinking, maybe you can get by without IV fluids. If cost is becoming a major concern, then just let him drink. He still might bounce back. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Cost is becoming a HUGE limiting factor. Vet bills is at thousands now.
Ok. Thanks for the input, really thank you.
He is drinking on his own too.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Well, if you stop the IV fluids because of cost, he still might be able to keep up. He could open up and drop his creatinine any time now, especially since you aren't giving him any more bute, gent, banamine,....no more banamine! Don't give any meds if you can help it, in fact. Just be patient and watch. If you let him have access to salt, grass hay and lots of fresh water, that might be all he needs. |
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Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: Great NW | Prayers |
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 Stinky Cat Owner
Posts: 4097
Location: Oregon | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Oh yes. No more, drugs, ever.
And ok. No problem. Salt. What's the best kind to get?
I have acculytes electrolytes, he loves them. Eats them free choice.
I wish I could give you a hug, lol.
I have got nothing but bad news from everyone.
I just need a sliver of hope.
They ultra sounded his kidneys Wednesday and today.
No change. Still enlarged.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| His BUN levels in his blood are improving.
Creatine staying high. |
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Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
Location: Opelousas, LA | If he is eating and drinking then the colt hasn't given up yet, keep the faith he may pull thru just fine. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | its a catch 22 with Salt. you want him to drink but when my one kidney was failing before they removed it..I could NOT have salt.. and to this day salt is hard on my other kidney ..prayers and I will say its so good scott chimed in. I know that must make you feel alot better.. dont give up!!!  |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 403
Location: Armuchee, GA, NW section of Ga | Unfortunately I've had a beloved colt with renal failure. He was 3 years old. About three years ago, just after Christmas, Patrick started refusing to eat. He wouldn't eat his normal feed and I tried anything and everything to get some food in him. He even refused apples, carrots, expensive feed, cheap feed, plain feed, mixed sweet feed, everything. Weight just fell off him. He looked like a horse with cushiings, heavy coat but very very thin. I could feel his bones. My vet came out several times, pulled blood, ran tests, made suggestions, and finally told me he was in sever renal failure. He wasn't drinking either. He looked at me one morning and I knew he was ready to go. I called my vet and he came out. Patrick normally didn't even attempt to move out of his stall, like he was in too much pain to even try. But this morning he stood at the door, looked out, lifted his head, breathed deeply of the crisp morning air and walked slowly to the rise in his small pasture. My vet administered the shots as I stood with my Patrick, stroking his head and talking to him. Telling him I love him so much. I was the first person to hold him as he was born, I helped him into this world, he was a rejected foal, a bucket baby, he was mine. I was the last person he saw as he crossed over. So sad. I hope you have better luck with yours.
Jan |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | janjan1 - 2013-10-07 9:58 PM Unfortunately I've had a beloved colt with renal failure. He was 3 years old. About three years ago, just after Christmas, Patrick started refusing to eat. He wouldn't eat his normal feed and I tried anything and everything to get some food in him. He even refused apples, carrots, expensive feed, cheap feed, plain feed, mixed sweet feed, everything. Weight just fell off him. He looked like a horse with cushiings, heavy coat but very very thin. I could feel his bones. My vet came out several times, pulled blood, ran tests, made suggestions, and finally told me he was in sever renal failure. He wasn't drinking either. He looked at me one morning and I knew he was ready to go. I called my vet and he came out. Patrick normally didn't even attempt to move out of his stall, like he was in too much pain to even try. But this morning he stood at the door, looked out, lifted his head, breathed deeply of the crisp morning air and walked slowly to the rise in his small pasture. My vet administered the shots as I stood with my Patrick, stroking his head and talking to him. Telling him I love him so much. I was the first person to hold him as he was born, I helped him into this world, he was a rejected foal, a bucket baby, he was mine. I was the last person he saw as he crossed over. So sad. I hope you have better luck with yours. Jan
Im sorry for your loss.. I think hers is differant .. hers is acute I would think being from the infection or meds.. and he is eating etc..so she has hope to flush his system and get his kidneys working..
again sorry for your loss |
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Member
Posts: 38
| If he is drinking and eating good , then if he was mine I would try to get him to drink 2 gallons of warm water with a little equine sr melted down in it ( horses love warm water , the sr really makes them drink . It only takes a double handful and they drink it right up!) every 2 hours . This has saved us many vet bills ! We are wishing you best of luck as we know how hard it is ! |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-07 6:20 PM
His BUN levels in his blood are improving.
Creatine staying high.
The falling BUN is a good sign. Also, it's a sign of improved hydration.
Give her an apple and walk her by hand......maybe it will elevate her mood, that is if she likes them.
A falling BUN is often the first sign that she's turning the corner. If she starts peeing like crazy, that means she's in the "diuretic phase" and I'd bet money she'll be out of the woods after that. The creat will start to drop and normalize.
ETA, I thought he was a mare, for some reason.
Edited by HotbearLVR 2013-10-07 9:25 PM
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I still think about your colt so I keep coming back for a good update , hes still in my prayers |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-07 4:20 PM His BUN levels in his blood are improving. Creatine staying high.
This is a good thing!!!! Please keep that horse on fluids! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| We are going to get him now.
Keeping him on fluids at home.
Going to try to keep him eating and drinking.
Thanks for the prayers! Will keep you updated.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Good deal.....keep your chin up and keep us posted! |
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Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: Great NW | Praying it all works out - sounds like he is a strong individual. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| On 10/3 his urea nitrogen 91H
Creatine 11.7 H
On 10/4
Urea nitrogen 87 H
Creatine 11.8 H
On 10/5
Urea nitrogen 77
Creatine 11.4
On 10/7 WBC 10.19
Urea nitrogen 76
Creatine 10.8
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-08 10:15 AM On 10/3 his urea nitrogen 91H Creatine 11.7 H On 10/4 Urea nitrogen 87 H Creatine 11.8 H On 10/5 Urea nitrogen 77 Creatine 11.4 On 10/7 WBC 10.19 Urea nitrogen 76 Creatine 10.8
Slow and steady, how are you running fluids at home? Are they living the cath in? Boy if you can get that down to 5.5, still high but have seen several live long lives with that level, keep us posted. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Yes, they left his cath in, put In a long term one, said it could last a month.
However I hope to not do fluids for more than a few days/week.
When do you stop? I don't know how to make the decision to draw the line.
He grazed for a hour. He had 1# of ADM senior glo. He drink 2 gallon of water. Ate some acculytes. And was eating grass hay. All within a 2 hour period.
Also urinated twice and pooped once.
He is bright. Alert. Loves the attention. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | you dont draw the line as long as he is alert and seems to be ok.. id give fluids at least another week and if levels drop your on the right path. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| He has drank 5 gallon of water since 3pm! Is that good? |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-08 4:40 PM He has drank 5 gallon of water since 3pm! Is that good? Normal amount for a average horse is 5-7 gl per day. Watch for any edema, legs, lower belly.
Edited by justcruzin 2013-10-08 7:07 PM
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Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
Location: Opelousas, LA | I don't know, but I would rather have one drinking too much than not enough. Hope its a good sign! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| He does have edema. They said to watch his breathing rate, listen for cough. But they did not seemed concerned. That was my biggest concern.
His sheath looks like it could explode, but he is still urinating fine.. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-08 6:40 PM
He has drank 5 gallon of water since 3pm! Is that good?
The thirst mechanism in the brain is a great regulator of hydration and volume status. If he is recovering from acute renal failure, then I would expect his urine output to rise and thirst would increase as well.
Look up "diuretic phase of acute renal failure" and you'll see that very often you see a marked increase in urine output. I think this might be a good sign. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | continued prayers for you both.. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Do You think he can continue through the phase without fluids? By drinking enough, or will he need continued fluids? I'm imagining this being a case to case answer? |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | It sounds like he's drinking a lot, so if I'd have to guess, I'd say sit tight, especially with all that edema. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Morning update, first night at home! I slept in the trailer at the barn so I could get up and check on him regularly.
I took him out this morning. He was bucking and trying to run Around. He acted like he wanted to roll but then changed his mind. I think his belly
Is so full & his sheath, he is uncomfortable to lay down.
he was long trotting and tossing his head around the dry lot.
He is eating excellent, drinking good. Peeing & pooping. No temp.
How can I not get my hopes up when he acts like that?!
He is def still neurological. But I hope I have the opportunity to treat him for EPM if he recovers from this ?? |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 12:00 PM Morning update, first night at home! I slept in the trailer at the barn so I could get up and check on him regularly. I took him out this morning. He was bucking and trying to run Around. He acted like he wanted to roll but then changed his mind. I think his belly Is so full & his sheath, he is uncomfortable to lay down. he was long trotting and tossing his head around the dry lot. He is eating excellent, drinking good. Peeing & pooping. No temp. How can I not get my hopes up when he acts like that?! He is def still neurological. But I hope I have the opportunity to treat him for EPM if he recovers from this ??
Edema doesn't worry me so much. That's just God's "reserve tank". If his vascular volume needs more fluids, it will get sucked out of the tissue and he will pee it out.
Stay the course. He doesn't seem to be acting like a horse who wants to die. |
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 Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | HotbearLVR - 2013-10-09 12:08 PM Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 12:00 PM Morning update, first night at home! I slept in the trailer at the barn so I could get up and check on him regularly. I took him out this morning. He was bucking and trying to run Around. He acted like he wanted to roll but then changed his mind. I think his belly Is so full & his sheath, he is uncomfortable to lay down. he was long trotting and tossing his head around the dry lot. He is eating excellent, drinking good. Peeing & pooping. No temp. How can I not get my hopes up when he acts like that?! He is def still neurological. But I hope I have the opportunity to treat him for EPM if he recovers from this ?? Edema doesn't worry me so much. That's just God's "reserve tank". If his vascular volume needs more fluids, it will get sucked out of the tissue and he will pee it out.
Stay the course. He doesn't seem to be acting like a horse who wants to die.
HotbearLVR--- you are such an inspiration! Thanks so much for taking time out of your busy day to help with this situtation. I know this isn't my horse, but I just love reading anything you write, an will follow threads to see what you have to say! Thank you! |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | ACEINTHEHOLE - 2013-10-09 12:18 PM HotbearLVR - 2013-10-09 12:08 PM Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 12:00 PM Morning update, first night at home! I slept in the trailer at the barn so I could get up and check on him regularly. I took him out this morning. He was bucking and trying to run Around. He acted like he wanted to roll but then changed his mind. I think his belly Is so full & his sheath, he is uncomfortable to lay down. he was long trotting and tossing his head around the dry lot. He is eating excellent, drinking good. Peeing & pooping. No temp. How can I not get my hopes up when he acts like that?! He is def still neurological. But I hope I have the opportunity to treat him for EPM if he recovers from this ?? Edema doesn't worry me so much. That's just God's "reserve tank". If his vascular volume needs more fluids, it will get sucked out of the tissue and he will pee it out.
Stay the course. He doesn't seem to be acting like a horse who wants to die.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Amen. You've truly been an excellent motivator for me. I know there is nothing that says you have to chime in, and I can't thank you enough for contributing. Rayban says thanks too :) |
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Expert
Posts: 1403
| Gutteral pouch infections can cause neurologic symptoms.... is this a for sure case of EPM ? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| NO. It is not confirmed EPM.
I was just going to treat.
The guttural pouch infection should be cleared up, it was NOT fungal. And we had it cultured, not strangles.
But how long until his signs improve? I've heard it is like our inner ear, the infection messes with his equilibrium? |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thanks, but honestly, the pleasure's all mine. This may sound a little funny or odd, but this reminds me of when I had my transplant patients. Living-related transplanted kidneys are taken from the donor in the room next door. They are flushed with cold solution and heparin so none of the blood clots inside them, and then I would bring the kidney to the next room and transplant it into the recipient. Because they are taken from the healthy donor, cooled down, and then re-warmed once the blood vessels are connected, they start to work right away, sometimes peeing up a storm. The creatinines would drop like a rock, from say a 7.5 down to a 2.5 the next day and 1.0 the following day. In fact, sometimes they would pee so much that they would overshoot and become dehydrated in their "vascular space" so the nurses would be running for bags of IV fluid just to keep up. With cadaver kidneys, it's a different story. Most of them had at least some degree of acute renal failure, but it wasn't as bad as it sounds. A better term was "delayed function" and it was a result of the kidneys sitting on ice, in saline solution for as much as 72 hours. The longer they sat, the worse the delayed function. We would transplant them and often times the kidney would make very little, if any urine for a variable length of time. Sometimes it would be almost a week, but then all of a sudden you would see the urine output go from 50cc/8 hours to 150cc the next 8 hours, to 350 cc the next.....and then whoosh! Katie bar the door! They would pour out urine, up to a liter an hour! They might even need 1-2 dialysis treatments until the kidney woke up.
If you didn't know any better you would think the kidney is dead....but it's not. Many of the patients I transplanted over 20 years ago are still running around with normal kidney function. And to think I actually got paid to have so much fun!
Now all I do is sit here and wait for word about Rayban! Hopefully it will be good news. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Wow! Sounds like it was quite an experience, a good one at that to have such a success.
That, I guess.. Confuses me? About him. He never quit urinating. So I would of "assumed"'his blood levels would return quicker than the no change?
But this is my first and hopefully last (haha!) kidney experience.
He seems so happy. So content.
Just keeping swimming! And praying :) |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Rayban |
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Expert
Posts: 1403
| Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 2:28 PM
NO. It is not confirmed EPM.
I was just going to treat.
The guttural pouch infection should be cleared up, it was NOT fungal. And we had it cultured, not strangles.
But how long until his signs improve? I've heard it is like our inner ear, the infection messes with his equilibrium?
the pressure of the infection can also press on the nerves running through the skull, causing neuro symptoms... how long befoe the infection was diagnosed was he showing neuro symptoms..?
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 1:52 PM Wow! Sounds like it was quite an experience, a good one at that to have such a success. That, I guess.. Confuses me? About him. He never quit urinating. So I would of "assumed"'his blood levels would return quicker than the no change? But this is my first and hopefully last (haha!) kidney experience. He seems so happy. So content. Just keeping swimming! And praying :)
He probably had what is called "non-oliguric acute renal failure", which means his kidneys kept making urine, but it wasn't "good quality" urine that removed the waste and toxins...basically salt water without the toxins. This kind of renal failure usually has a better prognosis. In humans, people with polycystic kidney disease have this kind of renal failure, where they make normal volumes of urine...just without the toxins that need to be removed. Those patients can make normal amounts of urine, yet still need chronic dialysis, until they are transplanted. They are actually easier to manage, because you don't have to worry so much about volume overload.
Rayban (cool name) probably has that kind of renal failure. Right now, his kidneys are fragile so stay away from medicines like bute and banamine. Just grass, fresh water, and free choice salt. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Ok! Cool!
Thanks for that info!
And yes, he is not getting anything like that!
Grass, grass hay, ADM senior glo feed, and all the water he can drink! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I would say... I noticed he had scuffs on his knees 4 days before I took him to the vet. Didn't know exactly the cause, now I assume he had fallen. From when I saw him with poor balance, the same day I took him in. I noticed a very SLIGHT head tilt for a week tops. |
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Expert
Posts: 1403
| Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 3:38 PM
I would say... I noticed he had scuffs on his knees 4 days before I took him to the vet. Didn't know exactly the cause, now I assume he had fallen. From when I saw him with poor balance, the same day I took him in. I noticed a very SLIGHT head tilt for a week tops.
I would not jump on the EPM train yet.... Gutteral pouch issues casue neuro symptoms... let that clear up and see if he is better...actual EPM (dare I say it,....) is actually quite rare...in the sheer numbers of Neuro issues...
had you been seeing issues long before... then maybe I would move on it... |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Well they say also, the toxins in the blood- could cause neuro symptoms. Toxins are higher, because of kidney failure.
Scott- what's your take on-- if he pulls though- living a good life? I know a lot of management will have to be in place, as far as diet and drugs administered. I had hopes to him being a rather high performing barrel horse someday. Is this achievable? |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 4:57 PM Well they say also, the toxins in the blood- could cause neuro symptoms. Toxins are higher, because of kidney failure. Scott- what's your take on-- if he pulls though- living a good life? I know a lot of management will have to be in place, as far as diet and drugs administered. I had hopes to him being a rather high performing barrel horse someday. Is this achievable?
If he recovers, I don't see why not. If he has significant impairment of kidney function, then I can't really say. Maybe a vet would give a better answer. My one concern would be if he has significant impairment and that could lead to metabolic bone disease....kinda like ricketts. You'll just have to play it by ear, most likely. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I've had one vet tell me he could live, happily, healthy & high performing with half a kidney functioning.
I've had one say, he will not be viable as performance horse. Just a "pet."
Lol, how can I get so many different answers? :) makes my head spin! |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 5:04 PM
I've had one vet tell me he could live, happily, healthy & high performing with half a kidney functioning.
I've had one say, he will not be viable as performance horse. Just a "pet."
Lol, how can I get so many different answers? :) makes my head spin!
You have to lose over 50% of your kidney mass in order to see any significant impairment in kidney function at all. People who donate a kidney usually go on and have normal function for the rest of their lives. You have to lose probably 75% of your kidney function in order to have it effect your life significantly. I'd say there's a good chance he could be a competitive horse with significant kidney damage, but keep in mind, if this is simply acute renal failure, like I was saying, the natural history is they recover their function for the most part.
The liver is even more impressive. You can lose 85% of your liver and survive. The ability of the liver to regenerate is absolutely incredible. No organ in the human body can regenerate like the liver. If I transplant a kidney from a newborn baby who has been a donor, that kidney might be only 2 inches long with teeny vessels and ureter. That little tiny kidney from a newborn can keep you alive, and if you do an ultrasound a year later it will have grown to adult size! I've done this. Sometimes we transplant two little kidneys from a baby donor into one recipient, and they look like a couple of grapes. A year later they are adult size. God is an amazing planner! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| WOW' that is so COOL!! No wonder you enjoy it so much! How neat.
I guess only time will tell :) |
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Stinky Cat Owner
Posts: 4097
Location: Oregon | Just wondering how your boy is today. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Sorry it has been a circus here! We farm and between trying to cut beans, the horse shoer being here and taking care of Rayban, it's a bit overwhelming at time!
They came out this morning, checked him over. They drained 3.5 gallon of fluid out of his abdomen! He looks more comfortable now.
They pulled blood and ran it. They just called 10 minutes ago.
HIS CREATINE AND BUN HAVE COME DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY!!!!! I haven't saw the blood work myself yet, but the Vets were VERY PLEASED!
Yay!! Tears of joy! A long ways to go but at least we are seeing improvement!
THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR PRAYERS, concern, suggestions, thoughts and encouragement! |
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Stinky Cat Owner
Posts: 4097
Location: Oregon | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-10 3:02 PM
Sorry it has been a circus here! We farm and between trying to cut beans, the horse shoer being here and taking care of Rayban, it's a bit overwhelming at time!
They came out this morning, checked him over. They drained 3.5 gallon of fluid out of his abdomen! He looks more comfortable now.
They pulled blood and ran it. They just called 10 minutes ago.
HIS CREATINE AND BUN HAVE COME DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY!!!!! I haven't saw the blood work myself yet, but the Vets were VERY PLEASED!
Yay!! Tears of joy! A long ways to go but at least we are seeing improvement!
THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR PRAYERS, concern, suggestions, thoughts and encouragement!
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Expert
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Location: Great NW | Continuing prayers. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | That's GREAT news! That's a tough gelding you have there. He deserves to live.....no doubt he has heart! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I guess Rayban heard he has made improvement too. He decided he didn't need his catheter anymore and pulled it out. Vet had to come back and put another in this morning. Haha! |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | How is he doing today? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Since he didn't have his catheter, I turned him loose to free graze this morning. He stayed out for a hour and a half eating. Also had 2# of adm senior glo. And is drinking good.
He is definitely better neurologically.
He took off prancing when I turned him loose :)
Did 21L fluid tues, 17 wed, 12 thurs. today will probably do 8-10. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Let us know his next Creatinine and BUN |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Will do. It will be Monday. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| He is doing so well!!
He looks better and is just perkier.
Decreasing his fluids has not become an issue at all so Far!
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Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: Great NW | Fantastic! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Back down!!!!
Bun 25
Creatine 4.5
The only thing she said was his calcium was still slightly elevated.
I don't know how to fix this :( |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-14 4:51 PM Back down!!!! Bun 25 Creatine 4.5 The only thing she said was his calcium was still slightly elevated. I don't know how to fix this :(
Fantastic news! I bet his calcium will normalize over time.
Again....stay away from NSAIDS like bute and banamine. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Oh don't worry haha! He is not getting anything at all ! |
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Extreme Veteran
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| His winter blanket came yesterday;) |
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Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: Great NW | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| It's been a couple weeks since I've posted an update on Rayban!
He is doing well, he gets out a couple hours a day to graze. He is on free choice grass hay. We've recently tried some Timothy pellets & orchard grass chops. He's not thin, but he isn't "blossomed" looking. Still has a slight belly.
He seems to have some days he feels better than others, but always has a big appetite and seems to be drinking well.
During the day he goes in the dry lot with his "buddies."
Bob & Jeff from total health enhancement mixed him up a special blend, based off his blood work.
He's getting that plus Forco and CocoaSoya Oil.
He goes back Wednesday for a check up! |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thanks for that followup! |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 629
Location: Kentucky | The neurological symptoms could be from the uremia. Patients that are not coming to dialysis or staying on their treatments can become this way. I have also seen it in new patients with acute kidney failure that suddenly had neurological changes. When their BUN and Creatinine lowers their symptoms fade. Fingers crossed that this becomes a thing of the past. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| unfortunately, I hate to report, Rayban was laid peacefully to rest this morning.
I appreciate all the feedback through his journey.
I really thought we had made it, but God had another plan.
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-12-03 9:39 PM unfortunately, I hate to report, Rayban was laid peacefully to rest this morning. I appreciate all the feedback through his journey. I really thought we had made it, but God had another plan.
Oh no I'm so so sorry to hear this, dang it, hugs for you |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | Wow, I am so very sorry. |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | I'm so sorry...sure wasn't the update I was expecting. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1440
Location: Texas | I am sorry for your loss. You both fought a good fight ! |
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 Star Padded Honey
Posts: 8890
Location: NW MT | I am so sorry! I missed the initial post & updates, so just now reading all this. I too had a mare go into renal failure a few yrs ago. we were able to pull her through to a point where she did very well on a very restricted diet & was still rideable. Our vet was so amazed at how well she had done, & she ended up buying her for a family horse. This started over 7 yrs ago & they had to put her down this past spring. You just never know how they will respond or how they will do when it comes to renal failure. Hugs to you!! |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | SO very sorry |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 902
Location: Qld Australia | OMG!!
I had missed your original thread and was just so shocked to read your update.
I am so sorry for your loss, I thought Rayban was in the clear. |
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Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: Great NW | I am so sorry . |
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Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | So very sorry to hear this, many hugs and prayers for you |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I'm sorry to hear this. I thought he was out of the woods a couple months ago. You did everything you could. |
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I Am Always Right
Posts: 4264
Location: stray dump capital of the world | So very sorry for your loss. |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Im very sorry for your loss,you both fought a good fight,hugs and prayers to ease your heart |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | so sorry for your loss :( |
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Cat Collector
Posts: 1430
| Sorry for your loss,
We had a horse do the exact same thing, found out it was as simple as a urinary tract infection he was out on sulphur and so far he is back to normal! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| thank you all for your thoughts and prayers.
I miss him dearly, but it is relieving to know he is not suffering. |
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 Crazy Chicken Chick
Posts: 36132
| I'm so so sorry. |
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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Very sorry! Hugs to you during this tough loss!!! |
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Kidney failure