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 Shelter Dog Lover
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| Absolutely no words for this. Article aside he has other siblings, how to you explain to them you are giving their brother back??? Also said the 9 year old "refused" help for aggressive behavior. When does a 9 year old get to decide whether he needs help??
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Will Couple Be Jailed for Returning Adopted Son After Nine Years?
Cleveland and Lisa Cox return adopted son to Ohio children's services after raising him for 9 years
Photographer: WCPO
Copyright 2013 Scripps Media, Inc. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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SHARETHIS
Posted: 11/15/2013
By: Alyssa Dailey, wcpo.com
LIBERTY TWP, Ohio -- A grand jury indicted a Liberty Township couple that gave their adopted 9-year-old son back to Butler County Children’s Services after raising him since he was a baby, according to the Journal-News.
Cleveland and Lisa Cox adopted the boy when he was 3 months old. The pair was indicted Thursday on one count of nonsupport of dependents after “recklessly” abandoning him on Oct. 24.
“My position is children in general, not speaking to this specific case, they do not have a return to sender label on their forehead,” said Butler County Prosecutor Mike Gmoser. “They are their children for always and they have that duty to support and they cannot abandon without consequences.”
The child’s guardian ad litem, Adolfo Olivas, said the boy’s parents cite aggressive behavior as their reasoning for returning him to children’s services. Olivas said the parents were frustrated that the boy would not agree to get help for his behavioral issues.
“The parents were willing to get help but the child wasn’t. That just is nonsense to me,” Olivas said. “A parent is a parent and a 9-year-old is a 9-year-old. If your 9-year-old needs help, you get him help. It is not a question of a 9-year-old wanting it or not.”
Olivas said the child is now receiving the care he needs but does not understand what has happened.
“(The child is) hurt and confused and traumatized,” Olivas said. “What does this do to these other kids? You have these siblings and one goes away and doesn’t ever come back because of some behavior issues. Anytime you separate siblings in the blink of an eye like that, it’s got to have some bad effect on them.”
The Coxes live in a $300,000-plus home and could not be reached for comment, according to Journal-News.
Warren County Juvenile Court Judge Joe Kirby said he has never heard of a situation like this.
“Sometimes you need to understand the whole situation. Every time I get a case there is always more to it…,” he said. “No matter what the circumstances are, there is always the other side of the story that just kind of turns things around.”
Read more: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/state/cleveland-and-lisa-cox-retur...
Edited by rodeomom3 2013-11-16 1:12 PM
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
 
Location: Displaced Iowegian | Some things just make you want to shake your head.........I hope they prosecute them! |
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 No Tune in a Bucket
Posts: 2935
Location: Texas | In one account that I read, it mentioned that he threatened to kill other family members. I don't know how you handle that. Just a sad situation for all involved. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | What a sad sad thing to happen to a 9 year boy  |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Reading the article, it doesnt give enough info to form an opinion about what's going on, but what does the value of their house have to do with anything? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
| Three 4 Luck - 2013-11-16 8:10 PM Reading the article, it doesnt give enough info to form an opinion about what's going on, but what does the value of their house have to do with anything?
Amen! |
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 Water Weight Barbie
Posts: 6829
Location: Oz, Kansas | Who knows what other avenues these parents have taken. This could have been a drug baby that was never diagnosed. There are no winners in this situation. |
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 Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7616
Location: Dubach, LA | Please don't judge these parents. None of us know what the family has suffered. This may be the best thing for the boy. |
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Location: In my own little world | CanCan - 2013-11-16 9:44 PM Please don't judge these parents. None of us know what the family has suffered. This may be the best thing for the boy.
I totally agree that this may well be the best thing for this child, and for the other children in the home as well. Having worked with many children that have a diagnosed condition such as reactive attachment disorder and can not bond with anyone or anything, bipolar disorder, etc many issues can arise that make it unsafe for everyone. There just isn't enough information here to be able to make an informed opinion on whether it is right or wrong. As far as the child refusing help, there may be an easy explanation. He may receive counseling services but refuse to communicate with anyone. They are going through the motion only. I have been around small children this same age who have made me quite nervous and I never turned my back on them because I knew they were capable of stabbing me in the back, walking out and never thinking twice about what they did as being wrong. Some children have such deep rooted issues that it is unbelievable.
Unforunately some children are born with a lot of baggage, not by choice, that may never be overcome. Crack babies, fetal alcohol sydrome, the list goes on and on. The blame is not on the child, or adoptive parents or caregivers, but the birth parent that did the horrible things that may have led to this poor child having to live life with all the demons that come with it. And maybe that is not the case with this child either but that is the issue with many children adopted or not. |
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| Sounds like they need to take some parenting classes. I agree with this statment 100%: “A parent is a parent and a 9-year-old is a 9-year-old. If your 9-year-old needs help, you get him help. It is not a question of a 9-year-old wanting it or not.” |
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Veteran
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The information seems a bit sketchy, if they have other kids what purpose would be served by sending the parents to jail? Kids really can be incorrigible little monsters, and the laws sure don't support parents disciplining them. What if he really is dangerous to the other children?
My friend has an autistic daughter who is brilliant and fairly high functioning. In fact brilliant enough to score zero on all academic testing quite deliberately. Forcing her to do anything against her will would be impossible, manipulating her is unsuccessful, just ask the collection of experts who have tried... this child can be angelic or wildly dangerous at the flip of a switch. Her mother has done an amazing job as a caregiver, but this girl will never be able to live independently.
So my reaction is to reserve judgement on these parents without knowing the full story, we might not walk so well in their shoes. It seems pretty desperate to give a child back after caring for him nine years. |
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| ropenrun - 2013-11-16 11:30 PM
CanCan - 2013-11-16 9:44 PM Please don't judge these parents. None of us know what the family has suffered. This may be the best thing for the boy.
I totally agree that this may well be the best thing for this child, and for the other children in the home as well. Having worked with many children that have a diagnosed condition such as reactive attachment disorder and can not bond with anyone or anything, bipolar disorder, etc many issues can arise that make it unsafe for everyone. There just isn't enough information here to be able to make an informed opinion on whether it is right or wrong. As far as the child refusing help, there may be an easy explanation. He may receive counseling services but refuse to communicate with anyone. They are going through the motion only. I have been around small children this same age who have made me quite nervous and I never turned my back on them because I knew they were capable of stabbing me in the back, walking out and never thinking twice about what they did as being wrong. Some children have such deep rooted issues that it is unbelievable.
Unforunately some children are born with a lot of baggage, not by choice, that may never be overcome. Crack babies, fetal alcohol sydrome, the list goes on and on. The blame is not on the child, or adoptive parents or caregivers, but the birth parent that did the horrible things that may have led to this poor child having to live life with all the demons that come with it. And maybe that is not the case with this child either but that is the issue with many children adopted or not.
Well said by both of you and so true ...
Protecting the other members of the family comes first and the legal system is too ready to prosecute parents for just about anything while they are letting murderers and rapists go ... .... PARENTS ARE EASY TARGETS AND INEXPERIENCED IN THE COURT SYSTEM SO THE GOVERNMENT LAWYERS JUMP ON THEM TO GET ANOTHER ILLEGITIMATE WIN ON THEIR RECORDS ... |
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I Really Love Jeans
Posts: 3173
Location: North Dakota | The kid could have mental problems caused by a number of things, drug use by real mother, or even an inherited mental illness. I would need to hear both sides of the story to really know what to think . The fact that they live in a decent house has nothing to do with it. I commend anyone who can take in a child that is not their biological child, that is something I would never be willing to do. It is a nightmare that he was taken back after 9 years but he was likely destroying the lives of the entire family for them to go to extreme measures. |
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Shelter Dog Lover
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| BARRELHORSE USA - 2013-11-17 2:07 AM ropenrun - 2013-11-16 11:30 PM CanCan - 2013-11-16 9:44 PM Please don't judge these parents. None of us know what the family has suffered. This may be the best thing for the boy. I totally agree that this may well be the best thing for this child, and for the other children in the home as well. Having worked with many children that have a diagnosed condition such as reactive attachment disorder and can not bond with anyone or anything, bipolar disorder, etc many issues can arise that make it unsafe for everyone. There just isn't enough information here to be able to make an informed opinion on whether it is right or wrong. As far as the child refusing help, there may be an easy explanation. He may receive counseling services but refuse to communicate with anyone. They are going through the motion only. I have been around small children this same age who have made me quite nervous and I never turned my back on them because I knew they were capable of stabbing me in the back, walking out and never thinking twice about what they did as being wrong. Some children have such deep rooted issues that it is unbelievable.
Unforunately some children are born with a lot of baggage, not by choice, that may never be overcome. Crack babies, fetal alcohol sydrome, the list goes on and on. The blame is not on the child, or adoptive parents or caregivers, but the birth parent that did the horrible things that may have led to this poor child having to live life with all the demons that come with it. And maybe that is not the case with this child either but that is the issue with many children adopted or not. Well said by both of you and so true ... Protecting the other members of the family comes first and the legal system is too ready to prosecute parents for just about anything while they are letting murderers and rapists go ... .... PARENTS ARE EASY TARGETS AND INEXPERIENCED IN THE COURT SYSTEM SO THE GOVERNMENT LAWYERS JUMP ON THEM TO GET ANOTHER ILLEGITIMATE WIN ON THEIR RECORDS ...
I don't doubt that this child probably does have some serious issues and maybe drastic measures are needed. However, why not put him in a facility where he is removed from the family and can get the help he needs. Would you completely wash your hands of a biological child? I think they mentioned the value of the house to show they might have the resources to get him help instead of abandoning him. I don't get giving a 9 year old back at all and walking away. If he is threatening the family you can file a police report and get him in the system where they are forced to get him help. |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | From the information givin we dont know the whole story. It does sound like the child has some very deep seated issues. Now to what extents the parents went to to get this child the help he needed I do not know, but, there has to be somewhere the parents can turn to for help to keep themselves and their other children safe. Especially in light of the threats made. Obviously this wasnt a light dicision for those parents.
There was just a recient case in Washington State 2 parents who were just sentenced to 35 years in prisen for the death of their adopted daughter by abuse. They appearantly thought they had no where to turn and this death came by way of parenting gone wrong in a big way. Certainly not condoning their parenting choices, but.......It would have been better for ALL involved, the adopted daughter, the other children, and the 2 parents if they could have turned to someone. Back to the adoption agency or something.
Back to this case, how many caes have their been of adoptive families and/or parents being murdered by the adopted children? |
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Fact Checker
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Location: Displaced Iowegian | rodeomom3 - 2013-11-17 7:43 AM BARRELHORSE USA - 2013-11-17 2:07 AM ropenrun - 2013-11-16 11:30 PM CanCan - 2013-11-16 9:44 PM Please don't judge these parents. None of us know what the family has suffered. This may be the best thing for the boy. I totally agree that this may well be the best thing for this child, and for the other children in the home as well. Having worked with many children that have a diagnosed condition such as reactive attachment disorder and can not bond with anyone or anything, bipolar disorder, etc many issues can arise that make it unsafe for everyone. There just isn't enough information here to be able to make an informed opinion on whether it is right or wrong. As far as the child refusing help, there may be an easy explanation. He may receive counseling services but refuse to communicate with anyone. They are going through the motion only. I have been around small children this same age who have made me quite nervous and I never turned my back on them because I knew they were capable of stabbing me in the back, walking out and never thinking twice about what they did as being wrong. Some children have such deep rooted issues that it is unbelievable.
Unforunately some children are born with a lot of baggage, not by choice, that may never be overcome. Crack babies, fetal alcohol sydrome, the list goes on and on. The blame is not on the child, or adoptive parents or caregivers, but the birth parent that did the horrible things that may have led to this poor child having to live life with all the demons that come with it. And maybe that is not the case with this child either but that is the issue with many children adopted or not. Well said by both of you and so true ... Protecting the other members of the family comes first and the legal system is too ready to prosecute parents for just about anything while they are letting murderers and rapists go ... .... PARENTS ARE EASY TARGETS AND INEXPERIENCED IN THE COURT SYSTEM SO THE GOVERNMENT LAWYERS JUMP ON THEM TO GET ANOTHER ILLEGITIMATE WIN ON THEIR RECORDS ...
^^^^THIS..........they CHOSE to adopt this child....you can't "give back" your biological child and NO WHERE should it be legal to just give back an adopted child, regardless of the health or mental problems. I would "assume" that the mention of the house value was to prove that they could FINANCIALLY support this child (which they swore to when they adopted him) rather than forcing the state and TAX PAYERS to support him.
I find it strange that there are so many of you who are opposed to welfare and using tax payer money but have no problem with this family "dropping" this child into the "tax payer" funded system. |
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 Dog Resuce Agent
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Location: southeast Texas | To bad this liberal press didn't report the rest of the story.
A while back I worked with a man that put in an elaborate alarm system with motion detectors. Locked his and his "Other" children in their rooms at night all because of one dangerous child they had. The kid had phiscally stabed his mother and threatened the step father and other siblings/stepsiblings. All the help they had tried to get this child did not help. The only medication that worked was one to keep the preteen child, knocked out.
He was scared of this kid......
Edited by roxieannie 2013-11-17 8:14 AM
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | NJJ - 2013-11-17 8:11 AM
rodeomom3 - 2013-11-17 7:43 AM BARRELHORSE USA - 2013-11-17 2:07 AM ropenrun - 2013-11-16 11:30 PM CanCan - 2013-11-16 9:44 PM Please don't judge these parents. None of us know what the family has suffered. This may be the best thing for the boy. I totally agree that this may well be the best thing for this child, and for the other children in the home as well. Having worked with many children that have a diagnosed condition such as reactive attachment disorder and can not bond with anyone or anything, bipolar disorder, etc many issues can arise that make it unsafe for everyone. There just isn't enough information here to be able to make an informed opinion on whether it is right or wrong. As far as the child refusing help, there may be an easy explanation. He may receive counseling services but refuse to communicate with anyone. They are going through the motion only. I have been around small children this same age who have made me quite nervous and I never turned my back on them because I knew they were capable of stabbing me in the back, walking out and never thinking twice about what they did as being wrong. Some children have such deep rooted issues that it is unbelievable.
Unforunately some children are born with a lot of baggage, not by choice, that may never be overcome. Crack babies, fetal alcohol sydrome, the list goes on and on. The blame is not on the child, or adoptive parents or caregivers, but the birth parent that did the horrible things that may have led to this poor child having to live life with all the demons that come with it. And maybe that is not the case with this child either but that is the issue with many children adopted or not. Well said by both of you and so true ... Protecting the other members of the family comes first and the legal system is too ready to prosecute parents for just about anything while they are letting murderers and rapists go ... .... PARENTS ARE EASY TARGETS AND INEXPERIENCED IN THE COURT SYSTEM SO THE GOVERNMENT LAWYERS JUMP ON THEM TO GET ANOTHER ILLEGITIMATE WIN ON THEIR RECORDS ...
I find it strange that there are so many of you who are opposed to welfare and using tax payer money but have no problem with this family "dropping" this child into the "tax payer" funded system.
I never said I was ok with it, but I won't rush to judgement from reading an article with very little information. |
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Shelter Dog Lover
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| NJJ - 2013-11-17 8:11 AM rodeomom3 - 2013-11-17 7:43 AM BARRELHORSE USA - 2013-11-17 2:07 AM ropenrun - 2013-11-16 11:30 PM CanCan - 2013-11-16 9:44 PM Please don't judge these parents. None of us know what the family has suffered. This may be the best thing for the boy. I totally agree that this may well be the best thing for this child, and for the other children in the home as well. Having worked with many children that have a diagnosed condition such as reactive attachment disorder and can not bond with anyone or anything, bipolar disorder, etc many issues can arise that make it unsafe for everyone. There just isn't enough information here to be able to make an informed opinion on whether it is right or wrong. As far as the child refusing help, there may be an easy explanation. He may receive counseling services but refuse to communicate with anyone. They are going through the motion only. I have been around small children this same age who have made me quite nervous and I never turned my back on them because I knew they were capable of stabbing me in the back, walking out and never thinking twice about what they did as being wrong. Some children have such deep rooted issues that it is unbelievable.
Unforunately some children are born with a lot of baggage, not by choice, that may never be overcome. Crack babies, fetal alcohol sydrome, the list goes on and on. The blame is not on the child, or adoptive parents or caregivers, but the birth parent that did the horrible things that may have led to this poor child having to live life with all the demons that come with it. And maybe that is not the case with this child either but that is the issue with many children adopted or not. Well said by both of you and so true ... Protecting the other members of the family comes first and the legal system is too ready to prosecute parents for just about anything while they are letting murderers and rapists go ... .... PARENTS ARE EASY TARGETS AND INEXPERIENCED IN THE COURT SYSTEM SO THE GOVERNMENT LAWYERS JUMP ON THEM TO GET ANOTHER ILLEGITIMATE WIN ON THEIR RECORDS ...
I find it strange that there are so many of you who are opposed to welfare and using tax payer money but have no problem with this family "dropping" this child into the "tax payer" funded system.
Edited by rodeomom3 2013-11-17 9:06 AM
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Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7616
Location: Dubach, LA | Okay, so some of you are determined to stone this couple. Just shows that you don't understand mental illness or our health system. It is almost impossible to get help for the dangerously mentally ill. Insurance plays out and no one will help. Police will lock them up for a day or two. Hospitals will restrain, admit, and then treat and street them. This 9 year old child could be truly dangerous. I remember reading an essay written after a school shooting. The mom/author was raising a child that she understood to be capable of killing and she had no help with him. I'm off to see if I can find that essay. |
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Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7616
Location: Dubach, LA | http://www.upi.com/blog/2012/12/16/I-am-Adam-Lanzas-Mother-post-goes-viral/9521355692027/
Here it is. I am Adam Lanza's Mother. Read this and then go pass judgement on those parents. |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| I don't disagree that there are dangerous children and the system is complicated and difficult to say the least. Would they have the option of going to court and legally absolving responsibility of a biological child? Just because it is expensive is not a reason to not take responsibility for your child. I just don't see how because he is adopted this is an option. This is a situation that obviously these parents or maybe any parents can handle and he needs to be in a facility. Yes it is expensive but it can be done.
Edited by rodeomom3 2013-11-17 9:28 AM
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Regular
Posts: 77
Location: Ohio | I live in the county where this occurred and, as several people have mentioned, there is more to the story than was shared in this article. Later information showed that the boy had repeatedly threatened to stab everyone in the family to death in the middle of the night (among other things). The police had been called and he launched into an uncontrollable rage while the police were there. They have repeatedly tried to help him. Hospitalizations, high level psych medications (apparently he has "several" diagnosed mental conditions), psychiatrists, counseling, etc. etc. and finally reached this point out of desparation and fear for themselves and their other children.
I think this is a sad, no win situation for everyone and that it's probably better not to pass judgement before hearing the whole story. While I don't agree with "dumping" children, I also know how difficult it is for family members to get mental health treatment (especially inpatient) for those who need it most. As someone else said, the usual MO is to "treat and street" patients, sending them home just as sick as when they came in and the family with dwindling resources and ability to deal with them. Years ago, this young man would have been placed long term as an inpatient. Now, the mental health system does not allow for that. |
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Fact Checker
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Location: Displaced Iowegian | rodeomom3 - 2013-11-17 9:22 AM I don't disagree that there are dangerous children and the system is complicated and difficult to say the least. Would they have the option of going to court and legally absolving responsibility of a biological child? Just because it is expensive is not a reason to not take responsibility for your child. I just don't see how because he is adopted this is an option. This is a situation that obviously these parents or maybe any parents can handle and he needs to be in a facility. Yes it is expensive but it can be done.
I agree......these parents do not want to take the FINANCIAL responsibility of the mental health care for this child....and don't give me that "bull pucky" that there are not institutions to "place" this child.......but the TAX payers should NOT have to take over THEIR responsibility just because they think that they can "return" him to the "Adoption STORE".......and get a refund.... |
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A Somebody to Everybody
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Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | So what did they do stamp return to sender on him, this is a human thats 9 years old they adopted him and made him their child, these are his parents and he only knows them as mommy and daddy and then they got rid of him  this is just so sad. If he needed help you as a parent do anything for your child, even if you have to sell you home, I would try to move Heaven and Earth to help either of my boys and grandbabys.  |
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10D Crack Champion
| NJJ - 2013-11-17 9:42 AM
rodeomom3 - 2013-11-17 9:22 AM I don't disagree that there are dangerous children and the system is complicated and difficult to say the least. Would they have the option of going to court and legally absolving responsibility of a biological child? Just because it is expensive is not a reason to not take responsibility for your child. I just don't see how because he is adopted this is an option. This is a situation that obviously these parents or maybe any parents can handle and he needs to be in a facility. Yes it is expensive but it can be done.
I agree......these parents do not want to take the FINANCIAL responsibility of the mental health care for this child....and don't give me that "bull pucky" that there are not institutions to "place" this child.......but the TAX payers should NOT have to take over THEIR responsibility just because they think that they can "return" him to the "Adoption STORE".......and get a refund....
There are facilities, but not as many as there once was. They will not keep children or adults for extended treatment like they once did as well. As soon as they appear to not be a threat to themselves or others they are released for the cycle to continue. I don't know what it is like to go to bed every night worried I may wake up to find my family dead at the hands of one of my children. I am wondering if they did this to force more advanced treatment for the child knowing he can't be placed anywhere else until he receives extensive treatment. This may have been the only way to get him the long term treatment he needs. I know treatment is available, but I am sure many parents with children with mental illness would argue the system is very flawed. They may very well be terrified of him......the impulsivity of a mentally ill child with no ability to feel and reason would be quite scary. It is sad for all in this situation. |
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10D Crack Champion
| Southtxponygirl - 2013-11-17 9:56 AM So what did they do stamp return to sender on him, this is a human thats 9 years old they adopted him and made him their child, these are his parents and he only knows them as mommy and daddy and then they got rid of him this is just so sad. If he needed help you as a parent do anything for your child, even if you have to sell you home, I would try to move Heaven and Earth to help either of my boys and grandbabys.
Edited by sodapop 2013-11-17 10:39 AM
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A Somebody to Everybody
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Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | sodapop - 2013-11-17 10:36 AM Southtxponygirl - 2013-11-17 9:56 AM So what did they do stamp return to sender on him, this is a human thats 9 years old they adopted him and made him their child, these are his parents and he only knows them as mommy and daddy and then they got rid of him this is just so sad. If he needed help you as a parent do anything for your child, even if you have to sell you home, I would try to move Heaven and Earth to help either of my boys and grandbabys. I am hoping they did exhaust all possibilities. It would be hard to understand the situation without all the details. If you were sure one of your sons dreamed of and tried killing or hurting you and your other family members, what would you do? It would be hard to be compassionate toward and love someone who does this daily. I know it can be done. I am not sure it is ever truly successful and unfortunately many of these children grow become adults in prison.
Thank God I never had to go threw something like this, but my boys are my boys and I would try to do whatever it took to help them. At least I would have tryed and not give up on them when they were only 9 years old, now if they were in their teens trying to kill me or anyone else in the family, well I guess they won and would be locked up. Yes we dont know both sides of this story, but 9 years old and return him to where he was at 3 months old, I think this is sad. |
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Southtxponygirl - 2013-11-17 11:44 AM sodapop - 2013-11-17 10:36 AM Southtxponygirl - 2013-11-17 9:56 AM So what did they do stamp return to sender on him, this is a human thats 9 years old they adopted him and made him their child, these are his parents and he only knows them as mommy and daddy and then they got rid of him this is just so sad. If he needed help you as a parent do anything for your child, even if you have to sell you home, I would try to move Heaven and Earth to help either of my boys and grandbabys. I am hoping they did exhaust all possibilities. It would be hard to understand the situation without all the details. If you were sure one of your sons dreamed of and tried killing or hurting you and your other family members, what would you do? It would be hard to be compassionate toward and love someone who does this daily. I know it can be done. I am not sure it is ever truly successful and unfortunately many of these children grow become adults in prison.
sounds like they did try everything.. desperate to keep their other family members safe. maybe this was their way of saying I NEED HELP.. not just a few nights in a mental hospital. we are scared . he will kill us.. instead of being a statistic..shouldnt judge.. media never tells whole story and unless we live there we have no clue . |
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Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | To add. id rather pay for this child in mental place then pay for 3 other siblings that lost their parents or were brutally mutilated.. sorry imho |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Bibliafarm - 2013-11-17 11:13 AM To add. id rather pay for this child in mental place then pay for 3 other siblings that lost their parents or were brutally mutilated.. sorry imho
I don't disagree with this at all and I don't think the parents should be fined or given jail time but I do think they should be held accountable as his parents and contribute financially to his care. If it were my child I would remove him from my home too and then move heaven and earth to find and pay for the right facilty for him. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | rodeomom3 - 2013-11-17 12:18 PM Bibliafarm - 2013-11-17 11:13 AM To add. id rather pay for this child in mental place then pay for 3 other siblings that lost their parents or were brutally mutilated.. sorry imho I don't disagree with this at all and I don't think the parents should be fined or given jail time but I do think they should be held accountable as his parents and contribute financially to his care. If it were my child I would remove him from my home too and then move heaven and earth to find and pay for the right facilty for him.
yes I meant to add. Id not dump him and disown him but id not allow him back in my home. id still track progress and be there to visit etc and help out financially. |
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 Ms. Potato Head
Posts: 9162
Location: BFE, Idaho | There are always two very scary sides to every story. I do not judge I did not walk in their shoes, nor did any of you.
I have personally been involved in two cases one very, very similar to this one with an 11 year old child, due to my job.
You need to really look into what is involved in America for help before judging any of these parents, unless you give up the rights to your child you cannot recieve state help on any type of violent mental disorder and insurance drops you like a hot potato. (Just what I have learned through one of my 'kids')
I am not sure really how many of you would let your other children live in fear of their lives every minute, or even give up everything you own, and have the remaining children live in abject poverty to support a private mental facility.
Once again not my shoes........... |
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 Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | Idaho - 2013-11-16 12:26 PM There are always two very scary sides to every story. I do not judge I did not walk in their shoes, nor did any of you.
I have personally been involved in two cases one very, very similar to this one with an 11 year old child, due to my job.
You need to really look into what is involved in America for help before judging any of these parents, unless you give up the rights to your child you cannot recieve state help on any type of violent mental disorder and insurance drops you like a hot potato. (Just what I have learned through one of my 'kids')
I am not sure really how many of you would let your other children live in fear of their lives every minute, or even give up everything you own, and have the remaining children live in abject poverty to support a private mental facility.
Once again not my shoes...........
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 More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | Ponygirl67 - 2013-11-17 9:37 AM I live in the county where this occurred and, as several people have mentioned, there is more to the story than was shared in this article. Later information showed that the boy had repeatedly threatened to stab everyone in the family to death in the middle of the night (among other things). The police had been called and he launched into an uncontrollable rage while the police were there. They have repeatedly tried to help him. Hospitalizations, high level psych medications (apparently he has "several" diagnosed mental conditions), psychiatrists, counseling, etc. etc. and finally reached this point out of desparation and fear for themselves and their other children.
I think this is a sad, no win situation for everyone and that it's probably better not to pass judgement before hearing the whole story. While I don't agree with "dumping" children, I also know how difficult it is for family members to get mental health treatment (especially inpatient) for those who need it most. As someone else said, the usual MO is to "treat and street" patients, sending them home just as sick as when they came in and the family with dwindling resources and ability to deal with them. Years ago, this young man would have been placed long term as an inpatient. Now, the mental health system does not allow for that.
Did anyone read this post? |
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| I'm not a mother but do work with children and believe we shouldn't judge. My first instinct was how could someone do that, but I have seen kids with behavior issues so bad that the parents had to lock their bedroom door at night in fear that the child would kill them. The child was adopted so we just don't no really what happened to him before. Its a sad situation, but if he does have a behavior disorder that is threatening to the other children in the home, I believe that the parents should try to protect their other kids. It is a sad situation but maybe the child needs more help than they could give him. I don't think anyone should judge unless they have been around special needs children and no how difficult it can be, especially if they are trying to hurt other children. Now not saying he has a behavior issue where he needs medical attention but if he does this is my opinion on it. If the parents are just making something up to get rid of him, then shame on them, and I hope they pay for it. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 794
| I have not read everyone's comment but I must add to this . You would be surprised at the number of children that are returned to the adoption agency around the age of 5-9. This is not illegal these parents must have done something that lead the authorities to follow up on them.
My brother and sister in law adopted a child 6 years ago that had been adopted from Russia when he was 14 months old. Four yearly later his parents here in the states decided they did not want two children they had one biological child. They put my nephew back into the system and we got him. I don't know if he needed us more or if we needed him more but we got each other now and he is a gift from God. I could not love him more if he had been born to us. I see him every day at school and I Love him so much. He does have some issues with anger, ADHA, OCD but he loves with his whole body and his dad is ADHA, AND OCD so I am used to all that. One person said how do you tell the brothers and sisters what happen to brother. How do you tell the preacher? I can see Sunday morning, Where is Jack, oh we got tired of him and gave him away.  
Edited by cavlier 2013-11-17 1:57 PM
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 Expert
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| ThreeCorners - 2013-11-17 8:04 AM From the information givin we dont know the whole story. It does sound like the child has some very deep seated issues. Now to what extents the parents went to to get this child the help he needed I do not know, but, there has to be somewhere the parents can turn to for help to keep themselves and their other children safe. Especially in light of the threats made. Obviously this wasnt a light dicision for those parents.
There was just a recient case in Washington State 2 parents who were just sentenced to 35 years in prisen for the death of their adopted daughter by abuse. They appearantly thought they had no where to turn and this death came by way of parenting gone wrong in a big way. Certainly not condoning their parenting choices, but.......It would have been better for ALL involved, the adopted daughter, the other children, and the 2 parents if they could have turned to someone. Back to the adoption agency or something.
Back to this case, how many caes have their been of adoptive families and/or parents being murdered by the adopted children? I know of one adopted child that shot his mother with a shotgun and killed her. They were friends of our family. He had a history of issues.
Edited by TyE 2013-11-18 12:46 AM
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Veteran
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| I have personal experience with a similar situation. My siblings and I are not close, were never close & we live states away, in different directions although keep somewhat in touch occasionally. My brother's oldest mild mannered daughter grew up & married a man who taught her the finer points of living off the system. She and hubby had a son who as a 4 and 5 year old started threatening to kill his parents and little sister...problem at school in 1st & 2nd grade. At 7 he started a fire in their bedroom. They tried unsuccessfully to get him help (I was told). They lived in a very rural area. He never killed them but they feared for their lives many times & many times suffered trauma at his actions. Fast forward to age 21. He is now doing 20 years in the federal pen. These kids are dangerous. Don't know what the answer is but I'm very grateful I didn't raise a child born with hate & rage from pre-school...I believe kids like this have brains wired wrong before birth & don't pass judgment against these folks either but hope the kid gets help. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 501
Location: Oklahoma | Sometimes, it is way to easy to pass judgement on others. As in all cases, I believe that there are two sides and I am guessing that "all" of the history is not there. As parents with other children maybe this is the best way that they could protect them. As parents you have to make tough decisions and do what is in the best interest of all of the children. Honestly, the mental health system combined with the legal system is not an easy one for anyone to navigate. I am hoping that they tried everything, and at the end of the day this is what they believed that they had to do to protect the family. |
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Veteran
Posts: 104
Location: The black prairie of Mississippi | My family has a history of mental illness and we have dealt with having to forcibly place two in inpatient care. The mental healthcare system in this country is a terribly broken thing and it takes extreme measures sometimes to get help for those that need it.
My uncle had to be placed in the county jail until a bed could open up in the state mental hospital for him. He was/is a paranoid schizophrenic and had had a total break with reality. He was a danger to himself and his family and needed to be placed in custody. He had held his family hostage inside their home for several days until my aunt tricked him into letting her go to town and buy groceries.
I don't know if it's the case here, but if they were willing to take a child they had raised for almost a decade back to the county and say here he is, we just don't know what to do don't you think it was an absolute last resort?
Like others have said, long term inpatient care is basically a thing of the past. No matter how much money you have to spend if the patient looks like they are capable of going home they go home. There are so many out there that need emergency treatment they just don't have the space to keep them long term.
I am in no way justifying what they have done but please try to give them the benefit of the doubt. |
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 Expert
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Location: rabbit run | My brother and his wife adopted an infant many years ago. They didn't find out he was a drug baby until several years later as they didn't have to divulge all of that back then. He had ADD, autism, threatened to kill them, and then set their house on fire. They had him in a mental health institution, group homes, etc, until their insurance was maxxed out. He came back home but ended up getting in enough trouble that he was sent to prison. He has been out several times, but always ends up back there. They thought many times about giving him back but I don't exactly know why they didn't. He hated everyone, including his grandparents, which broke my mom and dad's hearts. I never wanted him around my kids, and I'm glad he is in prison right now. My sister-in-law has passed away and my brother has disowned him. I don't know what else they could have done and I thank God every day that it wasn't my husband and I having to go through that. I don't know what I would have done so I wouldn't judge these people.
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Location: Great NW | Three 4 Luck - 2013-11-16 8:10 PM Reading the article, it doesnt give enough info to form an opinion about what's going on, but what does the value of their house have to do with anything?
 there is not enough information. If he threatened other family members it would be hard to keep him. We just can not say what we would do if put in their position. Very sad situation. They had to be at the end of their rope with no where to turn. They probably would have been jailed for disciplining him for his behavior and heck when they tried to get him help by giving him back they get prosecuted. Really no where for them to go. From what I understand our system does not have many options for family's with problem children. |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | I just don't think it is possible to make a judgement based on the information provided. Nobody has walked in these people's shoes. Nobody knows what treatments and interventions have failed. Nobody knows what consideration had to be made for the health and safety of the other children.
Somehow i doubt that the decsion was made lightly. |
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Nut Case Expert
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Location: Tulsa, Ok | speedjunkie - 2013-11-18 11:24 AM Three 4 Luck - 2013-11-16 8:10 PM Reading the article, it doesnt give enough info to form an opinion about what's going on, but what does the value of their house have to do with anything? there is not enough information. If he threatened other family members it would be hard to keep him. We just can not say what we would do if put in their position. Very sad situation. They had to be at the end of their rope with no where to turn. They probably would have been jailed for disciplining him for his behavior and heck when they tried to get him help by giving him back they get prosecuted. Really no where for them to go. From what I understand our system does not have many options for family's with problem children.
There are actually situations where mental health facilties have called parents/guardians and told them to come get their violent children/patients because they cannot help them. What are their options at that point?? |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| I would remove any threat to family, even if it were a 9 year old, I don't think I would abandon him though. It is just a sad situation all around and a testament to how broken the system is if the child is getting help that the family could not acess. It is in society's best interest to help this segment of our population. I think what set the press off was the statement "the parents said the child refused help" as opposed to we have tried everything and need help and if this is what we have to do to get him help them we will do it. I have been down that road of having to come up with major $$ out of no where to treat a medical condition so I don't give them a free pass on the cost of his care.
Edited by rodeomom3 2013-11-18 12:09 PM
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Expert
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Location: Great NW | diggerdoo - 2013-11-18 8:47 AM My brother and his wife adopted an infant many years ago. They didn't find out he was a drug baby until several years later as they didn't have to divulge all of that back then. He had ADD, autism, threatened to kill them, and then set their house on fire. They had him in a mental health institution, group homes, etc, until their insurance was maxxed out. He came back home but ended up getting in enough trouble that he was sent to prison. He has been out several times, but always ends up back there. They thought many times about giving him back but I don't exactly know why they didn't. He hated everyone, including his grandparents, which broke my mom and dad's hearts. I never wanted him around my kids, and I'm glad he is in prison right now. My sister-in-law has passed away and my brother has disowned him. I don't know what else they could have done and I thank God every day that it wasn't my husband and I having to go through that. I don't know what I would have done so I wouldn't judge these people.
Sorry this is so LONG:
My uncle went thru this - after losing two children in utero they adopted 3 kids about a year apart from each other~What a mess. the 1st was an alcohal baby. he was not too bad and is an upstanding citizen in the community. The 2nd two were drug babies and oh my. A Girl and a Boy. Both were horrible- they would run all over town at all hours of the night. When disciplined they would call the police and report abuse. they both at different times stole their parents blind and then when they were given only access to their rooms they each attacked their foster parents - one at knifepoint and one with a gun. They both went to several of those Juvenile delinquent camps. This family spent thousands trying to get these kids to take the right path and become good citizens. The girl has finally made it and the boy is now a man in his 30's and is living off the state. This is so sad, my uncle has money and he took them on trips all over the world and these kids truely had the "Whoe is me - I was adopted - no one cares for me" attitude when these parents wanted these kids more than anything in the world. No one knows what the long term affects of drugs and Alcohal will be ~ it is sad when they are handed over to parents that really have no idea what they are getting into - they are so deperate for a child that they close their minds. I feel for this family- I am sure they felt they had no where to go. |
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 Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12704
| My mother turned me over to the state when I was 17.
I'm adopted.
You can give an adopted child, or your own, over to the state if they are a danger to themselves or others.
The child goes into foster care if lucky, a Boys or Girls home if only slightly damaged or damaging, or some sort of institution if truly dangerous.
There are many scenarios where a parent would choose to relinquish their child. Dangerous is dangerous. You cannot force a person into behaving rationally if there the brain isn't rational. If this child has a psychosis then relinquishing the child back to state custody may be the first step in getting the child into a facility that can deal with the illness. |
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 Uh....never mind
Posts: 2696
Location: Midwest Farmer's Daughter: Central Illinois | TyE - 2013-11-18 12:45 AM ThreeCorners - 2013-11-17 8:04 AM From the information givin we dont know the whole story. It does sound like the child has some very deep seated issues. Now to what extents the parents went to to get this child the help he needed I do not know, but, there has to be somewhere the parents can turn to for help to keep themselves and their other children safe. Especially in light of the threats made. Obviously this wasnt a light dicision for those parents.
There was just a recient case in Washington State 2 parents who were just sentenced to 35 years in prisen for the death of their adopted daughter by abuse. They appearantly thought they had no where to turn and this death came by way of parenting gone wrong in a big way. Certainly not condoning their parenting choices, but.......It would have been better for ALL involved, the adopted daughter, the other children, and the 2 parents if they could have turned to someone. Back to the adoption agency or something.
Back to this case, how many caes have their been of adoptive families and/or parents being murdered by the adopted children? I know of one adopted child that shot his mother with a shotgun and killed her. They were friends of our family. He had a history of issues.
I have a feeling you're talking about Morrison, Oklahoma? I lived there when that happened. Drove by the house every day. The entire story is awful, because the kid didn't just have access to a gun. He had to crawl up into a closet, put the gun together, get the shells from another room & sit & wait for her to come in the house. The he chased her down the hall to shoot her.
Some people - children & adults both - are plain out Satan's work. |
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Expert
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Location: rabbit run | RLB - 2013-11-18 1:31 PM TyE - 2013-11-18 12:45 AM ThreeCorners - 2013-11-17 8:04 AM From the information givin we dont know the whole story. It does sound like the child has some very deep seated issues. Now to what extents the parents went to to get this child the help he needed I do not know, but, there has to be somewhere the parents can turn to for help to keep themselves and their other children safe. Especially in light of the threats made. Obviously this wasnt a light dicision for those parents.
There was just a recient case in Washington State 2 parents who were just sentenced to 35 years in prisen for the death of their adopted daughter by abuse. They appearantly thought they had no where to turn and this death came by way of parenting gone wrong in a big way. Certainly not condoning their parenting choices, but.......It would have been better for ALL involved, the adopted daughter, the other children, and the 2 parents if they could have turned to someone. Back to the adoption agency or something.
Back to this case, how many caes have their been of adoptive families and/or parents being murdered by the adopted children? I know of one adopted child that shot his mother with a shotgun and killed her. They were friends of our family. He had a history of issues.
Some people - children & adults both - are plain out Satan's work.
Unfortunately that's an absolutely true statement. Not everyone can be fixed no matter how hard people who loved them try. It's so sad.
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | I like how people know nothing about this child or the situation, yet they can be all
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | lonely va barrelxr - 2013-11-18 2:10 PM My mother turned me over to the state when I was 17.
I'm adopted.
You can give an adopted child, or your own, over to the state if they are a danger to themselves or others.
The child goes into foster care if lucky, a Boys or Girls home if only slightly damaged or damaging, or some sort of institution if truly dangerous.
There are many scenarios where a parent would choose to relinquish their child. Dangerous is dangerous. You cannot force a person into behaving rationally if there the brain isn't rational. If this child has a psychosis then relinquishing the child back to state custody may be the first step in getting the child into a facility that can deal with the illness.
You and I talked a little about your youth, but I did not realize your Mom had done this. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that kind of life, but I'm also amazed that your have stepped out of box and become a wonderful healthy person. I also have a best friend that was adopted at birth. Her adoptive mother died when she was 6. Her adopted father passed away when she was 14. She had no other real family and though her adobtive parents were wealthy...distant family "took" her in until all the money was gone.
Sometimes life just sucks...but with the right help or internal strength people can make it. I hope this little boy and the parents can find peace.
I will pray for everyone in this situation. |
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 Looking for Lady Jockey
Posts: 3747
Location: Rodeos or Baseball games |  |
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 Regular
Posts: 67
| Prayers for this family and that little boy...I am sure there is much more to this story than what is being told in the newspaper...They had to make it catch headlines somehow.... |
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 Road Rash Expert
Posts: 5501
Location: Near San Antonio, TX | My friend has a little girl. She is only 6 years old (my daughter is 5). It is sad, but the 6 year old is big time, hugely not right. She has left barbies hanging by their neck with ropes all over, she stoof up in class and pointed her finger and said, "I am going to kill...each...and...every....one of you..." She will give evil looks to her teachers, class mates, etc and while giving the evil stare down will slide her finger across her throat (like " I am going to slit your throat" motion).
Also, she still wears a diaper. Her psychiatrist says because she likes "control." I forget what it is called, but she will hoard poop, like not go poop for a week, and then take a ginormous dump in her diaper and not let anyone change it for her. She has already killed small animals, and what is worse is her mom is expecting a baby boy. God be with that boy.
That poor girl just isn't right. And she is so young!
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Veteran
Posts: 183
| I don't mean to steal the subject here but how can we support lazy ass people on welfare for the majority of their lives but yet not have long term care and counseling for children...does not make sense to me!!!! |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| illlookup - 2013-11-18 3:50 PM I don't mean to steal the subject here but how can we support lazy ass people on welfare for the majority of their lives but yet not have long term care and counseling for children...does not make sense to me!!!!
Great point!! These kids need help before we have another tragedy. |
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 Left Out
Posts: 6795
Location: Silex Missouri | There is a couple I know who adopted a child from Germany or Russia I can't remember which. Long story short this child never "bonded" with anyone due to the situation in the orphanage she was in. and now has emotional issues. She is 9 or 10 and they are trying to find a "home" to put her in. Seriously? if this was your blood child would you simply find a home to put it in? |
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Uh....never mind
Posts: 2696
Location: Midwest Farmer's Daughter: Central Illinois | I think if you read enough about these types of situations, there are people who would love to find a home to put their children in whether they are blood or not. These children range from emotionally unavailable to dangerous & there are close to ZERO avenues when psychological help & medication does nothing. |
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Nut Case Expert
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Location: Tulsa, Ok | RLB - 2013-11-18 4:00 PM I think if you read enough about these types of situations, there are people who would love to find a home to put their children in whether they are blood or not. These children range from emotionally unavailable to dangerous & there are close to ZERO avenues when psychological help & medication does nothing.
From what I understand and have observed, the possibilities can become non-exhistant for cases when all conventional intervention and medication has failed. Their families have to take into consideration the safety and preservation of the rest of the family as well as the unsuspecting public. There is no way in hell they can help a mentally ill child if their own sanity and/or life is sacrificed. |
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Expert
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Location: Great NW | Sometimes there comes a time when one has to say "enough" . I pray for these family's that their path becomes clear and the road smooths out. |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | After working in the legal system as a prosecutor and now a defense attorney, I can say that most people would be shocked at the lack of availability for treatment for these types of situations. If you have a problem child, there's not always a place to take them -- no matter how much money you can pay or not pay. You can offer $50K to place a child but if there is no room in some of these facilities, there's just no room and you have no other real options when it comes to seeking help.
The threat is real with some of these kids too. I know of a few who will always be in the system and I do fear for their families because no amount of counseling, medication or therapy seems to work. Until you've dealt with a child who can be described as refusing treatment or blanking out during therapy, you probably wouldn't believe it either but some kids are just really beyond a normal scope that it's truly frightening. |
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 Chicken Chick
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Location: Texas | CanCan - 2013-11-17 9:11 AM Okay, so some of you are determined to stone this couple. Just shows that you don't understand mental illness or our health system. It is almost impossible to get help for the dangerously mentally ill. Insurance plays out and no one will help. Police will lock them up for a day or two. Hospitals will restrain, admit, and then treat and street them. This 9 year old child could be truly dangerous. I remember reading an essay written after a school shooting. The mom/author was raising a child that she understood to be capable of killing and she had no help with him. I'm off to see if I can find that essay.
We know a girl that has a mentally ill son. I don't know exactly what is wrong with him but he is mentally at the age of about 9 or so, really he is 17 I think. She is single and it is just them 2 living in their house. Being around this kid, he acted just like my 9 year old and they would have huge conversations about "kid" stuff. Not a problem, no anger issues etc, respectful. Really a good kid to be around, and we enjoyed being around him.
2 nights ago she woke up to him standing at the end of her bed staring at her. She asked what he was doing and he said "Nothing", she said then why are you in my room staring at me? He took off running. They looked for him for hours, the cops finally found him and brought him home. The cop was asking why he ran away etc and the kid kept saying "I don't know", they then started asking why he was in his mom's room watching her sleep. He finally told them he was thinking about how he could cut her up into a million pieces and get rid of the body. The cop told her what her son said about her and pretty much said good luck.
This is her biological son that she has lived with his whole life. Her son is at least 6' tall and she is like 5'4" and a tiny little thing. I don't know what she is going to do, I don't even know what her options are... but I feel for her. I couldn't imagine being scared of my own son. |
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10D Crack Champion
| pinx05 - 2013-11-18 4:37 PM
CanCan - 2013-11-17 9:11 AM Okay, so some of you are determined to stone this couple. Just shows that you don't understand mental illness or our health system. It is almost impossible to get help for the dangerously mentally ill. Insurance plays out and no one will help. Police will lock them up for a day or two. Hospitals will restrain, admit, and then treat and street them. This 9 year old child could be truly dangerous. I remember reading an essay written after a school shooting. The mom/author was raising a child that she understood to be capable of killing and she had no help with him. I'm off to see if I can find that essay.
We know a girl that has a mentally ill son. I don't know exactly what is wrong with him but he is mentally at the age of about 9 or so, really he is 17 I think. She is single and it is just them 2 living in their house. Being around this kid, he acted just like my 9 year old and they would have huge conversations about "kid" stuff. Not a problem, no anger issues etc, respectful. Really a good kid to be around, and we enjoyed being around him.
2 nights ago she woke up to him standing at the end of her bed staring at her. She asked what he was doing and he said "Nothing", she said then why are you in my room staring at me? He took off running. They looked for him for hours, the cops finally found him and brought him home. The cop was asking why he ran away etc and the kid kept saying "I don't know", they then started asking why he was in his mom's room watching her sleep. He finally told them he was thinking about how he could cut her up into a million pieces and get rid of the body. The cop told her what her son said about her and pretty much said good luck.
This is her biological son that she has lived with his whole life. Her son is at least 6' tall and she is like 5'4" and a tiny little thing. I don't know what she is going to do, I don't even know what her options are... but I feel for her. I couldn't imagine being scared of my own son.
That is so horrible. I would bet this is not the first time he has done this. It is probably just the first time he has done enough to wake her. It could mean he is getting closer to acting on his thoughts.I hope she can keep herself and others safe. Hopefully there will be some help for her, but chances are it will be minimal for what he needs. |
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10D Crack Champion
| Red Raider - 2013-11-18 4:26 PM
After working in the legal system as a prosecutor and now a defense attorney, I can say that most people would be shocked at the lack of availability for treatment for these types of situations. If you have a problem child, there's not always a place to take them -- no matter how much money you can pay or not pay. You can offer $50K to place a child but if there is no room in some of these facilities, there's just no room and you have no other real options when it comes to seeking help.
The threat is real with some of these kids too. I know of a few who will always be in the system and I do fear for their families because no amount of counseling, medication or therapy seems to work. Until you've dealt with a child who can be described as refusing treatment or blanking out during therapy, you probably wouldn't believe it either but some kids are just really beyond a normal scope that it's truly frightening.
All good points Red Raider. I know a family who has several adopted children all with mental issues. One of whom has to sleep in the parents room with all bedroom doors locked because this particular child has talked of killing one of the siblings. They all have counselors. One is homeschooled because he can't function in a small group without a scary outburst. He is scarier than the one they keep in their bedroom at night. .....downright creepy. |
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Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | Few years ago we meant a couple selling a pool......and as somethings go you have small talk about different issues.........etc.........the husband / father was there to meet us......with 2 small children.......as talk went he shared with us where his wife was..........they were in the process of having their oldest daughter committed to a facility..........due to mental issues that had started early in her life........she finally became a threat to them and her sisters and had to be removed from the family.............I reckon unless we are faced with this one never knows............ |
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Expert
Posts: 1336
Location: Central Arkansas | I agree with not judging the parents. I have a friend who several years ago adopted a baby boy from Russia. When he was 4 or so he tried to kill his little sister by criss crossing a dog
lease over her throat. Here are a few more things he did.
Killed a couple of their small pets.
Trying to hump the miniature horses.
Threatened to burn the house down with all them in it
Acting inappriately sexually toward his sisters.
Making up stories about his parents abusing him.
Stealing his sisters underwear and masturbating in them.
Going into rages and attacking the family.
These are only the things I can remember that he did. Everyone was scared of him.
He was in several institutions but they all released him after so long.
He was diagnosed as a sociopath. He is 22 now and not living at home.
He also has severe attachement disorder. He was already like that when she adopeted him.
She tried everything to help him. All sorts of therapy.
Sad.
As long as he is in a controlled enviroment he did OK. He can't function in the real world. |
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Location: In my own little world | NJJ - 2013-11-17 7:11 AM rodeomom3 - 2013-11-17 7:43 AM BARRELHORSE USA - 2013-11-17 2:07 AM ropenrun - 2013-11-16 11:30 PM CanCan - 2013-11-16 9:44 PM Please don't judge these parents. None of us know what the family has suffered. This may be the best thing for the boy. I totally agree that this may well be the best thing for this child, and for the other children in the home as well. Having worked with many children that have a diagnosed condition such as reactive attachment disorder and can not bond with anyone or anything, bipolar disorder, etc many issues can arise that make it unsafe for everyone. There just isn't enough information here to be able to make an informed opinion on whether it is right or wrong. As far as the child refusing help, there may be an easy explanation. He may receive counseling services but refuse to communicate with anyone. They are going through the motion only. I have been around small children this same age who have made me quite nervous and I never turned my back on them because I knew they were capable of stabbing me in the back, walking out and never thinking twice about what they did as being wrong. Some children have such deep rooted issues that it is unbelievable.
Unforunately some children are born with a lot of baggage, not by choice, that may never be overcome. Crack babies, fetal alcohol sydrome, the list goes on and on. The blame is not on the child, or adoptive parents or caregivers, but the birth parent that did the horrible things that may have led to this poor child having to live life with all the demons that come with it. And maybe that is not the case with this child either but that is the issue with many children adopted or not. Well said by both of you and so true ... Protecting the other members of the family comes first and the legal system is too ready to prosecute parents for just about anything while they are letting murderers and rapists go ... .... PARENTS ARE EASY TARGETS AND INEXPERIENCED IN THE COURT SYSTEM SO THE GOVERNMENT LAWYERS JUMP ON THEM TO GET ANOTHER ILLEGITIMATE WIN ON THEIR RECORDS ...
I find it strange that there are so many of you who are opposed to welfare and using tax payer money but have no problem with this family "dropping" this child into the "tax payer" funded system.
Not knowng this exact situation I can bet that taxpayers are already paying additional for this child in a variety of ways whether it be additional educational services, Medicaid based on a medical diagnosis. And we will most likely continue to pay for this child when he is older through the correctional system. If you have never worked with these kinds of children, it is hard to fathom what they are capable of. But it is real and they can be very scary.
I can just about guess this all has nothing to do with irresponsible adoptive parents wanting to give this child back, but rather this is the best thing they can do to assure that this child will get the treatment he abviously needs. To me that makes them extremely responsible. They are having to make some very difficult decisions regarding what's in the best interest for their adopted son, even if it means relinquishing their parental rights. It is also the best way for them to assure the safety of their other children and themselves.
And it really makes me wonder if the parents said exactly what is being stated...that the kid wouldn't accept treatment. This could be erroneous wording. Maybe, maybe not. My guess is how it is said and what is meant are 2 different things but that is speculation. JMO |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 808
| pinx05 - 2013-11-18 2:37 PM
CanCan - 2013-11-17 9:11 AM Okay, so some of you are determined to stone this couple. Just shows that you don't understand mental illness or our health system. It is almost impossible to get help for the dangerously mentally ill. Insurance plays out and no one will help. Police will lock them up for a day or two. Hospitals will restrain, admit, and then treat and street them. This 9 year old child could be truly dangerous. I remember reading an essay written after a school shooting. The mom/author was raising a child that she understood to be capable of killing and she had no help with him. I'm off to see if I can find that essay.
We know a girl that has a mentally ill son. I don't know exactly what is wrong with him but he is mentally at the age of about 9 or so, really he is 17 I think. She is single and it is just them 2 living in their house. Being around this kid, he acted just like my 9 year old and they would have huge conversations about "kid" stuff. Not a problem, no anger issues etc, respectful. Really a good kid to be around, and we enjoyed being around him.
2 nights ago she woke up to him standing at the end of her bed staring at her. She asked what he was doing and he said "Nothing", she said then why are you in my room staring at me? He took off running. They looked for him for hours, the cops finally found him and brought him home. The cop was asking why he ran away etc and the kid kept saying "I don't know", they then started asking why he was in his mom's room watching her sleep. He finally told them he was thinking about how he could cut her up into a million pieces and get rid of the body. The cop told her what her son said about her and pretty much said good luck.
This is her biological son that she has lived with his whole life. Her son is at least 6' tall and she is like 5'4" and a tiny little thing. I don't know what she is going to do, I don't even know what her options are... but I feel for her. I couldn't imagine being scared of my own son.
That is the scariest this I have ever read! I can't imagine what that poor woman must be thinking or going through.
That being said, I give kudos to the parents for realizing that they were unable to help this child and at least giving him to child services that hopefully can help him in some way shape or form. I'd rather my tax money go to that then bums on welfare etc |
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| I can testify that it is extemely hard to find mental help for a child like this. I went thru hell and back with my oldest, I almost went to jail. I begged to get her help. I searched the computer network,, church networks, hospitals, and counseling services. Sad to say there is not much help out there for kids. Especially in rural america. |
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Water Weight Barbie
Posts: 6829
Location: Oz, Kansas | After listening to the news last night & seeing that a Senator was severly injured & his mentally ill son dead it made me remember this case. The news said this man tried to get his son committed but the hospitals were full & he had no choice but to take him home. I live in the County, and across the highway, from one of the few State run mental hospitals left in the Country. I also worked there & have had several family members work there. Mental Health has been swept under the table for many years & there are few options left for families, whether public or private. Our jails are full of people that should be in long term psychiatric hospitals but there aren't any. Once that person is an adult it makes it even more difficult to get them involuntarily committed. As much as I hate to say it, maybe now that one of their own was a victim the Gov't will start taking notice. Though I doubt it. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 501
Location: Oklahoma | As an HR professional who deals with the benefits of our organization... I have seen some very sad things, but the greatest injustice is the mental health care system itself as well as the legal system when it comes to addressing mental health issues. There really isn't alot of help available to these families or the victims of mental health situations. I have seen people have to threaten sucide or something else to even get any help at all. From what I can gather, at least in the state of Oklahoma- we really don't know how to address it or deal with it. Insurance pays very little towards it- and we don't have the facilities needed in our area. |
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Water Weight Barbie
Posts: 6829
Location: Oz, Kansas | runningfree123 - 2013-11-20 8:04 AM As an HR professional who deals with the benefits of our organization... I have seen some very sad things, but the greatest injustice is the mental health care system itself as well as the legal system when it comes to addressing mental health issues. There really isn't alot of help available to these families or the victims of mental health situations. I have seen people have to threaten sucide or something else to even get any help at all. From what I can gather, at least in the state of Oklahoma- we really don't know how to address it or deal with it. Insurance pays very little towards it- and we don't have the facilities needed in our area.
The hospital that is in my area used to house over 1300 patients that number has continued to drop & now can house right around 300. There are only 2 state run adult hospitals in the State of Kansas & one juvenile hospital. It's really sad to see funding continue to get cut in this area of need. |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | lookout hill - 2013-11-20 9:11 AM runningfree123 - 2013-11-20 8:04 AM As an HR professional who deals with the benefits of our organization... I have seen some very sad things, but the greatest injustice is the mental health care system itself as well as the legal system when it comes to addressing mental health issues. There really isn't alot of help available to these families or the victims of mental health situations. I have seen people have to threaten sucide or something else to even get any help at all. From what I can gather, at least in the state of Oklahoma- we really don't know how to address it or deal with it. Insurance pays very little towards it- and we don't have the facilities needed in our area. The hospital that is in my area used to house over 1300 patients that number has continued to drop & now can house right around 300. There are only 2 state run adult hospitals in the State of Kansas & one juvenile hospital. It's really sad to see funding continue to get cut in this area of need.
It seems that "warehousing" the mentally ill has become politically incorrect, which seems reasonable until you consider that there is a total lack of viable alternatives, much less funding for alternative treatments. |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9991
Location: Kansas | Wow, just wow |
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Water Weight Barbie
Posts: 6829
Location: Oz, Kansas | SC Wrangler - 2013-11-20 8:21 AM lookout hill - 2013-11-20 9:11 AM runningfree123 - 2013-11-20 8:04 AM As an HR professional who deals with the benefits of our organization... I have seen some very sad things, but the greatest injustice is the mental health care system itself as well as the legal system when it comes to addressing mental health issues. There really isn't alot of help available to these families or the victims of mental health situations. I have seen people have to threaten sucide or something else to even get any help at all. From what I can gather, at least in the state of Oklahoma- we really don't know how to address it or deal with it. Insurance pays very little towards it- and we don't have the facilities needed in our area. The hospital that is in my area used to house over 1300 patients that number has continued to drop & now can house right around 300. There are only 2 state run adult hospitals in the State of Kansas & one juvenile hospital. It's really sad to see funding continue to get cut in this area of need.
I was watching a documentary on the Cook County jail & the sheriff said that over 2500 inmates are mentally ill & have no where else to go. So as soon as they max their time they commit another petty theft so they can go back in because they no their services will stop once they are on the outside. That right there is so sad. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1432
Location: Never in one place long | Scout1320 - 2013-11-18 3:38 PM
My friend has a little girl. She is only 6 years old (my daughter is 5). It is sad, but the 6 year old is big time, hugely not right. She has left barbies hanging by their neck with ropes all over, she stoof up in class and pointed her finger and said, "I am going to kill...each...and...every....one of you..." She will give evil looks to her teachers, class mates, etc and while giving the evil stare down will slide her finger across her throat (like " I am going to slit your throat" motion).
Also, she still wears a diaper. Her psychiatrist says because she likes "control." I forget what it is called, but she will hoard poop, like not go poop for a week, and then take a ginormous dump in her diaper and not let anyone change it for her. She has already killed small animals, and what is worse is her mom is expecting a baby boy. God be with that boy.
That poor girl just isn't right. And she is so young!
That girl is MESSED UP! She better watch her baby!! :( so sad.... I don't know if I'd even trust having her with a baby! I don't know what the answer is but those people seem to NEVER change only move onto hurting bigger things from small animals, to large animals to humans.... NOTHING should have to suffer because of a crazy, sick individual! |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Just so you all know, this thread has officially scared me away from ever having kids. lol |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 501
Location: Oklahoma | lookout hill - 2013-11-20 9:35 AM SC Wrangler - 2013-11-20 8:21 AM lookout hill - 2013-11-20 9:11 AM runningfree123 - 2013-11-20 8:04 AM As an HR professional who deals with the benefits of our organization... I have seen some very sad things, but the greatest injustice is the mental health care system itself as well as the legal system when it comes to addressing mental health issues. There really isn't alot of help available to these families or the victims of mental health situations. I have seen people have to threaten sucide or something else to even get any help at all. From what I can gather, at least in the state of Oklahoma- we really don't know how to address it or deal with it. Insurance pays very little towards it- and we don't have the facilities needed in our area. The hospital that is in my area used to house over 1300 patients that number has continued to drop & now can house right around 300. There are only 2 state run adult hospitals in the State of Kansas & one juvenile hospital. It's really sad to see funding continue to get cut in this area of need.
Ironically, the thing that I see and maybe that is the issue.... in many cases of mentally ill persons, there isn't a cure! There isn't an answer. Some of them are simply broken. In 5 cases that i have dealt with, long term, there has been no change. They are on medication to control impulses or bad/poor behavior- but that only works as long as they take or can afford the medication. There is no cure! I saw or read a statistic once about how many mentally ill people are in prison and I dont' remember what it was- but it was high. The only answer for the worst and most dangerous cases is to be warehoused.. sad to say... whether it is in prison or a mental healthy facility. Some people are just broken. |
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 Wishing I were a Wildcat
Location: 'Hawk Country | They are Sociopaths and there is no cure.
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Chicken Chick
Posts: 3562
Location: Texas | The1CowgirlsEnvy - 2013-11-19 1:06 AM pinx05 - 2013-11-18 2:37 PM CanCan - 2013-11-17 9:11 AM Okay, so some of you are determined to stone this couple. Just shows that you don't understand mental illness or our health system. It is almost impossible to get help for the dangerously mentally ill. Insurance plays out and no one will help. Police will lock them up for a day or two. Hospitals will restrain, admit, and then treat and street them. This 9 year old child could be truly dangerous. I remember reading an essay written after a school shooting. The mom/author was raising a child that she understood to be capable of killing and she had no help with him. I'm off to see if I can find that essay. We know a girl that has a mentally ill son. I don't know exactly what is wrong with him but he is mentally at the age of about 9 or so, really he is 17 I think. She is single and it is just them 2 living in their house. Being around this kid, he acted just like my 9 year old and they would have huge conversations about "kid" stuff. Not a problem, no anger issues etc, respectful. Really a good kid to be around, and we enjoyed being around him.
2 nights ago she woke up to him standing at the end of her bed staring at her. She asked what he was doing and he said "Nothing", she said then why are you in my room staring at me? He took off running. They looked for him for hours, the cops finally found him and brought him home. The cop was asking why he ran away etc and the kid kept saying "I don't know", they then started asking why he was in his mom's room watching her sleep. He finally told them he was thinking about how he could cut her up into a million pieces and get rid of the body. The cop told her what her son said about her and pretty much said good luck.
This is her biological son that she has lived with his whole life. Her son is at least 6' tall and she is like 5'4" and a tiny little thing. I don't know what she is going to do, I don't even know what her options are... but I feel for her. I couldn't imagine being scared of my own son. That is the scariest this I have ever read! I can't imagine what that poor woman must be thinking or going through. That being said, I give kudos to the parents for realizing that they were unable to help this child and at least giving him to child services that hopefully can help him in some way shape or form. I'd rather my tax money go to that then bums on welfare etc
We were all shocked. Everyone in our little family offered to take him out with us when we went bowling etc, and he was the best kid to be around. Of course he was always asking for a dollar here and there to play video games, but so were the other kids.
My husband was just at their house about 3 weeks ago and came home telling stories about the kid and how funny he was.
I would have never in my wildest dreams thought we would have gotten the call about what he said about his mom. I figured it would have been something like taking his mom's car for a joy ride.
Last I heard she doesn't know what to do. She doesn't want to put him in a facility because he is her baby but she is scared of him, and I don't blame her.
So as for the people the OP posted about. I don't judge them, to me it sounds like they just didn't know what to do. Maybe now he can go somewhere and possibly get help, instead of getting worse and/or hurting someone. |
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Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | And this...........
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/11/21/virginia-looking-into-treatment-creigh-deeds-son-before-stabbing-attack/?intcmp=latestnews
HOT SPRINGS, VA. – As police studied evidence into what led to the attack on state Sen. Creigh Deeds, a Virginia health official said his office opened an investigation into why the legislator's son was reportedly released from emergency custody the day before he stabbed his father and killed himself. The son, Gus Deeds, was a talented musician known for his stories and his smarts and as someone who could carry on conversations on wide range of topics. But his mental health apparently came into question the day before the Tuesday's attack at the family's farm in western Virginia. His father was in good condition at a hospital. Media outlets reported an emergency custody order was issued for him, but they have not said why. He was taken to the Rockbridge Area Community Services center, which treats mental illness and substance abuse, but he was released because they couldn't find a psychiatric bed for him. Several hospitals told news media after the stabbing that they had space.
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Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9991
Location: Kansas | I'm going to pray for society, and pray that my daughter will have a wonderful life and never have to know the feeling of being unloved.
I can't scroll down my newsfeed on facebook anymore without someone sharing a sad story about a child being locked away in a cage or being starved to death. I read one this morning that had me in tears. A little girl 5-6 years old was found in a crib that was made into a makeshift cage, and they found her trying to eat herself because of starvation. They also found remains of a child buried in the backyard, as well as a 1 month old baby boy. I pray those children come into a home who shows them love, lord knows we need it in times such as these, and to face all those monsters. |
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Couple returns 9 year old son adopted as an infant.