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  Bye-Bye Jiggle
Posts: 1691
   
Location: Where ever there's sunshine! | My gelding is Double bred beduino and everyone I've talked to has had nothing good to say. Opinions? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 713
Location: ND | I had a gelding Beduino bred and he was a fruit loop.. doesn't mean all are bad. I think this one had a rough history that had a part not just his breeding. |
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 Saint Stacey
| I think it depends on how far back the Beduino is in both cases. I have a double bred Beduino and I really like her. She has her quirks, but all the foals out of her dam are that way.
I think that if a horse has a temper and is bull headed, if someone sees Beduino in the pedigree they automatically blame him.
Maybe Beduino bred horses aren't for everyone. I personally think the problem is that they are simply too smart and bull headed for their own good. You aren't going to train one by forcing it to submit to your will. Or thinking if you beat them enough they will finally give in. |
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 Canine Carryout Queen
Location: Oklahoma | Weve had several great grand get etc and have had NO issues ... I bought an own grand daughter of Beduino this spring ... She is QUIET... Kid safe -- the previous owner rode her down right next to the highway bareback and brideless. the mare is an absolute sweetheart - easy to handle, nice to haul and just very good minded.
Shes out of a AAA daughter of Easily Smashed out of a daughter of Go Man Go ... |
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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation. |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| SKM - 2013-11-24 8:50 AM
I think it depends on how far back the Beduino is in both cases. I have a double bred Beduino and I really like her. She has her quirks, but all the foals out of her dam are that way.
I think that if a horse has a temper and is bull headed, if someone sees Beduino in the pedigree they automatically blame him.
Maybe Beduino bred horses aren't for everyone. I personally think the problem is that they are simply too smart and bull headed for their own good. You aren't going to train one by forcing it to submit to your will. Or thinking if you beat them enough they will finally give in.
BINGO!!!!.....Beduino is a blood line that I like to see in a prospect....SPEED SPEED SPEED.......If you are a spur and jerk type of rider you will not like them. You have to ask them not tell them. They will try to out think you and can be a little quirky. |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | annemarea - 2013-11-24 7:01 AM I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation.
are you saying that beduino is susupect carrier for type 2 pssm? |
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| I have two horses beduino bred. One chicks beduino and the other behold the beduino and love them. They are very fast and very willing to please. I think they are very smart. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 814
Location: Central California | As everyone has posted they may not be for everyone. Yep they have a temper but I like to think it is more because we try to tell them what to do instead of asking them to do something. The mare in my avitar is an own daughter of Chicks Beduino and was raced. She did not have a good start to say the least but with time began to trust people once again. She does have her moments but truly lets everyone know when she has had enough. The foal at her side is now almost 3 and in training. It took me weeks of working with her to gain her trust. But boy is she gonna be a good one. Best advice in dealing with one is to not get into a fight, you will not win it! Kindness and love will get you where you want to go, just may take you a little longer. |
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 Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | kwanatha - 2013-11-24 10:02 AM annemarea - 2013-11-24 7:01 AM I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation. are you saying that beduino is susupect carrier for type 2 pssm?
from what I have been reading, Yes. The only way to tell is to test for PSSM1 and PSSM2 if you own the horse and it has symptoms. |
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Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| roxieannie - 2013-11-24 10:22 AM
kwanatha - 2013-11-24 10:02 AM annemarea - 2013-11-24 7:01 AM I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation. are you saying that beduino is susupect carrier for type 2 pssm?
I find the above statements highly speculative. First beduino was a TB and pssm is rare in TB's. Second pssm traces back over 1200 years and effects over 20 breeds of horses. Third the highest occurrence of pssm in QH is in the halter blood lines not racing. The Quarter Horse Ass. is currently funding gene testing on pssm and has no results as of yet. |
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 Angel in a Sorrel Coat
Posts: 16030
Location: In a happy place | I have had a number of them and I love them. Own sons and grandget too. Easy to train and had lots of run. They are not for people who pick on a horse though. Treat them with respect and they will do the same for you. |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | LOL My stoli daughter is double bred Beduino as well. I wouldn't trade her for the world. First through her sire's side- since Strawberry Silk is by Beduino. And then through her dam's side, Chrome Tapestry is a Beduino as well. I will say she is smart, super smart. Very smooth riding, and she never forgot anything I showed her under saddle. She has energy to burn- but she's a broodmare being fed up to stay nice and fat with no job to burn off the calories. I could see someone making her hot if they just rushed and pounded her… she's very smart and takes a light hand. I love that in a horse. My mom disagrees with me and doesn't think she's the brightest crayon in the box, because all of our mares know which stall is theirs except for Georgia.. she will wander into a different one every time. I told her it's because she's the queen and all the stalls belong to her!
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Bye-Bye Jiggle
Posts: 1691
Location: Where ever there's sunshine! | He's a grand out of chicks beduino on top side and great out of beduino on bottom side. He got hurt right after I brought him home. He has been under daily care for a month now and is loving it. I'm not an over agressive rider and I'm sure not going to force anything. I'm all for finding what works instead of forcing the one way I know. I'm very excited for this guys future and have high hopes for he and I. Thank ya'll for you responses! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 326
| I have had 2 and loved both. Easy to train, but as stated above, not for someone that wants to pick a fight with them. I will always buy one. I get along with them great! |
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 Duck Duck Goose
Posts: 1280
Location: Ohio | http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/chocolate+and+moolah
Glad to hear the positive comments. This is my weanling. Was a little worried about the Beduino, but he is a total sweetheart so far ans smart as a whip!
Edited by next thirty years 2013-11-24 1:18 PM
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One Grateful Mom
Posts: 2702
Location: wolverton,mn | Well his name suggests a great combo....chocolate and money!
One of my N.d. Friends has a great beduino broodemare,I get 2 of her colts to ride for her this summer. Looking forward to it,great colts! |
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Duck Duck Goose
Posts: 1280
Location: Ohio | hotbear03 - 2013-11-24 1:42 PM Well his name suggests a great combo....chocolate and money!
One of my N.d. Friends has a great beduino broodemare,I get 2 of her colts to ride for her this summer. Looking forward to it,great colts!
So true! And he's black to boot, could it get much better lol.
That's actually not his registered name though, the breeder put him on allbreed. Still have to come up with a registered name. Open to suggesions.
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 Schnoodle Lover
Posts: 2987
Location: **Cactus Country down in South Texas*** | I love mine, his personality is what you would consider to be a weirdo lol but other then that awesome little horse.
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 Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | I ran barrel and poles on my Beduino bred gelding all through high school. He was a teddy bear in the field. Never once ancy or hot headed. I'd own another in a heart beat. Love my big baby. |
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 Vodka for Lunch
Location: Lala Land | Love, Love, Love!!! Mine has such a huge heart! Very "know it all" mentality, show him once and he thinks he's an NFR horse. lol Very kind, athletic, and can fly! |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 724
| I had a chance to buy a big grey race mare that was off the track, she was a beduino granddaughter, she had a lump on her knee so I decided not too but she was wicked fast, and built huge. She won races all over the nw and canada. Sometimes I think I maybe should have gave it a chance but I'm not much of a mare person either. She was also extremely hot. And that was with 3 years off and having a foal. |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | jbhoot - 2013-11-24 11:25 AM roxieannie - 2013-11-24 10:22 AM kwanatha - 2013-11-24 10:02 AM annemarea - 2013-11-24 7:01 AM I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation. are you saying that beduino is susupect carrier for type 2 pssm? I find the above statements highly speculative. First beduino was a TB and pssm is rare in TB's. Second pssm traces back over 1200 years and effects over 20 breeds of horses. Third the highest occurrence of pssm in QH is in the halter blood lines not racing. The Quarter Horse Ass. is currently funding gene testing on pssm and has no results as of yet.
I agree that the above statements are highly speculative. I have no "proof" and am simply going off of multiple peoples outspoken opinions on the line, including trainers who deal with these horses on a daily basis for a living. I could be totally wrong, and hopefully soon they will identify the Type 2 gene. I'd be willing to put money on the fact that Type 2 is not rare and much more common that most think. Most will not spend the time and money to muscle biopsy their horses in order to find out. I did. I have 2 out of 3 horses that are positive for Type 2 PSSM, but negative for Type 1. Both have alot of TB in them and are more running bred and were bred specifically for barrel racing. Before I tested my CB gelding, PSSM forums were guessing he'd test positive for Type 1 due to his sire's line and proven Type 1 positive horses coming from those bloodlines. He didn't.
I was unable to find anything that stated PSSM Type 2 is rare in TB's? Can you lead me to such research? I was able to find to following statement from U of M on both PSSM Type 1 and 2.
"There are two different types of PSSM found in horses, Type 1 and Type 2. Type 1 is found in over 20 breeds and commonly affects Quarter Horses, Quarter Horse-related breeds, Morgans, some Draft breeds and some warmbloods. Type 2 PSSM is found in Quarter Horses, Arabians, Thoroughbreds and potentially other light breeds." |
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Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| annemarea - 2013-11-24 2:41 PM
jbhoot - 2013-11-24 11:25 AM roxieannie - 2013-11-24 10:22 AM kwanatha - 2013-11-24 10:02 AM annemarea - 2013-11-24 7:01 AM I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation. are you saying that beduino is susupect carrier for type 2 pssm? I find the above statements highly speculative. First beduino was a TB and pssm is rare in TB's. Second pssm traces back over 1200 years and effects over 20 breeds of horses. Third the highest occurrence of pssm in QH is in the halter blood lines not racing. The Quarter Horse Ass. is currently funding gene testing on pssm and has no results as of yet.
I was unable to find anything that stated PSSM Type 2 is rare in TB's? Can you lead me to such research? I was able to find to following statement from U of M on both PSSM Type 1 and 2.
"There are two different types of PSSM found in horses, Type 1 and Type 2. Type 1 is found in over 20 breeds and commonly affects Quarter Horses, Quarter Horse-related breeds, Morgans, some Draft breeds and some warmbloods. Type 2 PSSM is found in Quarter Horses, Arabians, Thoroughbreds and potentially other light breeds."
I refer you to Dr. Stephanie Valberg DVM. Minn. college of Vet.Med. Stated at the 2011 TEVA conference. That Type1 pssm is from a gene mutation. Type 2 pssm cause unknown at this date. She further states "Type 1 pssm in Arabins and Thoroughbreds is vary low". She goes on to say That Quarter Horses type 1pssm shows up in 28% of halterbred--6to10% in the general population with racing QH being the lowest. Don't ask me for a link I don't know how to do it. |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | jbhoot - 2013-11-24 3:40 PM annemarea - 2013-11-24 2:41 PM jbhoot - 2013-11-24 11:25 AM roxieannie - 2013-11-24 10:22 AM kwanatha - 2013-11-24 10:02 AM annemarea - 2013-11-24 7:01 AM I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation. are you saying that beduino is susupect carrier for type 2 pssm? I find the above statements highly speculative. First beduino was a TB and pssm is rare in TB's. Second pssm traces back over 1200 years and effects over 20 breeds of horses. Third the highest occurrence of pssm in QH is in the halter blood lines not racing. The Quarter Horse Ass. is currently funding gene testing on pssm and has no results as of yet.
I was unable to find anything that stated PSSM Type 2 is rare in TB's? Can you lead me to such research? I was able to find to following statement from U of M on both PSSM Type 1 and 2.
"There are two different types of PSSM found in horses, Type 1 and Type 2. Type 1 is found in over 20 breeds and commonly affects Quarter Horses, Quarter Horse-related breeds, Morgans, some Draft breeds and some warmbloods. Type 2 PSSM is found in Quarter Horses, Arabians, Thoroughbreds and potentially other light breeds." I refer you to Dr. Stephanie Valberg DVM. Minn. college of Vet.Med. Stated at the 2011 TEVA conference. That Type1 pssm is from a gene mutation. Type 2 pssm cause unknown at this date. She further states "Type 1 pssm in Arabins and Thoroughbreds is vary low". She goes on to say That Quarter Horses type 1pssm shows up in 28% of halterbred--6to10% in the general population with racing QH being the lowest. Don't ask me for a link I don't know how to do it.
Right, but my Chicks Beduino is NOT Type 1.....he is Type 2 and they are currently researching the gene for Type 2. |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | If you go to the FB PSSM forum, a highly educated lady just told me that both PSSM Type 2 and RER are the two most common muscle disorders in Thoroughbreds. I'm asking her to send me info on research to support that for you. I understand that people get sensitive when certain lines are named as suspect, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....generally speaking that's because it's A DUCK.
As far as Type 2 not having been PROVEN to be genetic... I know alot of people like to use that statement to say it's OK to breed as long as they are Type 1 negative, however, if the U of M did not feel it was genetic they would not be spending thousands in research. Here is a link which includes a letter asking for money for research for Type 2. Common sense tells me that Type 2 is genetic and also more than likely a dominant gene, just like Type 1 is.
http://forums.barrelhorseworld.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=437470&start=1
Edited by annemarea 2013-11-24 4:38 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 1561
Location: Texas | I have only owned 1 Beduino bred gelding several years ago. 1) Extremely fast, I believe the fastest horse I have ever ridden. 2) He was goofy and did NOT want to be a barrel horse.
Tried everything to make him want to be a barrel horse...he would not have anything to do with them. Eventually sold him to a hunter jumper and he took to that like water on a ducks back.
So IMO I dont think I would own one for a barrel prospect...but you just never know..lol!
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Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| annemarea - 2013-11-24 3:44 PM
jbhoot - 2013-11-24 3:40 PM annemarea - 2013-11-24 2:41 PM jbhoot - 2013-11-24 11:25 AM roxieannie - 2013-11-24 10:22 AM kwanatha - 2013-11-24 10:02 AM annemarea - 2013-11-24 7:01 AM I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation. are you saying that beduino is susupect carrier for type 2 pssm? I find the above statements highly speculative. First beduino was a TB and pssm is rare in TB's. Second pssm traces back over 1200 years and effects over 20 breeds of horses. Third the highest occurrence of pssm in QH is in the halter blood lines not racing. The Quarter Horse Ass. is currently funding gene testing on pssm and has no results as of yet.
I was unable to find anything that stated PSSM Type 2 is rare in TB's? Can you lead me to such research? I was able to find to following statement from U of M on both PSSM Type 1 and 2.
"There are two different types of PSSM found in horses, Type 1 and Type 2. Type 1 is found in over 20 breeds and commonly affects Quarter Horses, Quarter Horse-related breeds, Morgans, some Draft breeds and some warmbloods. Type 2 PSSM is found in Quarter Horses, Arabians, Thoroughbreds and potentially other light breeds." I refer you to Dr. Stephanie Valberg DVM. Minn. college of Vet.Med. Stated at the 2011 TEVA conference. That Type1 pssm is from a gene mutation. Type 2 pssm cause unknown at this date. She further states "Type 1 pssm in Arabins and Thoroughbreds is vary low". She goes on to say That Quarter Horses type 1pssm shows up in 28% of halterbred--6to10% in the general population with racing QH being the lowest. Don't ask me for a link I don't know how to do it.
You in your first statement made the inference that this comes from Beduino TB. I think the odds of that are really low. If chicks Bedunio carrys type 2 I would look at his bottom side for a genetic marker Because the odds that it comes from the TB side is low. Besides at this point they are not sure type 2 is genetic they only suspect. In your previous Statements you seem to blame the TB side of your horses for the pssm I think the odds of this are slim. In every thing that I have read on this it traces back middle Europe and their draft breeds having the highest markers. Since Arabians and Thoroughbreds have had a closed stud book for hundred's of years it is no surprise that it is rare in these breeds. If type 2 does prove to be genetic I would look at the foundation side of the Quarter Horse. In the early days of the QH reg. They let a lot of horses in on TYPE only with unknown parents. |
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 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| If it doesn't have beduino I don't want it. And I would bet most of the bad beduino horses had/have bad trainers. |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | it would not surprise me to find out that chicks beduino's dam was a carrier I see suspect there. it might even explain why i have heard hit and miss on chicks beduino offspring. |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Directly from U of M website:
Type 2 PSSM is found in Quarter Horses, Arabians, Thoroughbreds and potentially other light breeds.
Yes there is a DNA test to determine if a horse has the genetic mutation that causes PSSM type 1. Until we know more about the basic cellular mechanism involved in PSSM type 2 we will have difficulty identifying the gene with its mutation. Genetic research into PSSM type 2 is on going and we welcome working with breeding farms with several related PSSM and healthy horses that would allow us to study their herd. We would welcome contact from such breeders. Please contact Dr. Stephanie Valberg at the University of Minnesota (nmdl@umn.edu) |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | jbhoot - 2013-11-24 4:43 PM
annemarea - 2013-11-24 3:44 PM
jbhoot - 2013-11-24 3:40 PM annemarea - 2013-11-24 2:41 PM jbhoot - 2013-11-24 11:25 AM roxieannie - 2013-11-24 10:22 AM kwanatha - 2013-11-24 10:02 AM annemarea - 2013-11-24 7:01 AM I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation. are you saying that beduino is susupect carrier for type 2 pssm? I find the above statements highly speculative. First beduino was a TB and pssm is rare in TB's. Second pssm traces back over 1200 years and effects over 20 breeds of horses. Third the highest occurrence of pssm in QH is in the halter blood lines not racing. The Quarter Horse Ass. is currently funding gene testing on pssm and has no results as of yet.
I was unable to find anything that stated PSSM Type 2 is rare in TB's? Can you lead me to such research? I was able to find to following statement from U of M on both PSSM Type 1 and 2.
"There are two different types of PSSM found in horses, Type 1 and Type 2. Type 1 is found in over 20 breeds and commonly affects Quarter Horses, Quarter Horse-related breeds, Morgans, some Draft breeds and some warmbloods. Type 2 PSSM is found in Quarter Horses, Arabians, Thoroughbreds and potentially other light breeds." I refer you to Dr. Stephanie Valberg DVM. Minn. college of Vet.Med. Stated at the 2011 TEVA conference. That Type1 pssm is from a gene mutation. Type 2 pssm cause unknown at this date. She further states "Type 1 pssm in Arabins and Thoroughbreds is vary low". She goes on to say That Quarter Horses type 1pssm shows up in 28% of halterbred--6to10% in the general population with racing QH being the lowest. Don't ask me for a link I don't know how to do it.
You in your first statement made the inference that this comes from Beduino TB. I think the odds of that are really low. If chicks Bedunio carrys type 2 I would look at his bottom side for a genetic marker Because the odds that it comes from the TB side is low. Besides at this point they are not sure type 2 is genetic they only suspect. In your previous Statements you seem to blame the TB side of your horses for the pssm I think the odds of this are slim. In every thing that I have read on this it traces back middle Europe and their draft breeds having the highest markers. Since Arabians and Thoroughbreds have had a closed stud book for hundred's of years it is no surprise that it is rare in these breeds. If type 2 does prove to be genetic I would look at the foundation side of the Quarter Horse. In the early days of the QH reg. They let a lot of horses in on TYPE only with unknown parents.
Beduino or Chicks Beduino... If either is mentioned to a trainer, I generally get the whole "cold-backed, difficult" response. I have no idea if it's only one or the other. Please see above statements from U of M stating PSSM Type 2 is, in fact, found in both TB and Arabian lines and that it, too, is believed to be genetic. |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| I know people dont like chicks beduino but that is because of the chicks deck not the beduino. |
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 Living on the edge of common sense
Posts: 24139
Location: Carpenter, WY | So far so good on ours She is very, very smart and athletic. Is takin to the colt starting process very easily. If anything she wants to push off her rear and go everywhere fast but is riding out overall just fine.
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | annemarea - 2013-11-24 9:01 AM
I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation.
what's the reg name of your other PSSM horse? |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | casualdust07 - 2013-11-24 5:40 PM
annemarea - 2013-11-24 9:01 AM
I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation.
what's the reg name of your other PSSM horse?
She is APHA registered Ima Mighty Patriot. I was able to contact her sire's owner, but not her dam's owner. As soon as they both came back with Type 2 results, I did let both breeders know. I also submitted blood samples to Dr Stephanie so they would have their DNA on file to help with PSSM TYPE 2 research. The mare is a total hot crazy crackhead to the 24th power when she's hurting. Love her to death, though! |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | annemarea - 2013-11-24 6:12 PM
casualdust07 - 2013-11-24 5:40 PM
annemarea - 2013-11-24 9:01 AM
I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation.
what's the reg name of your other PSSM horse?
She is APHA registered Ima Mighty Patriot. I was able to contact her sire's owner, but not her dam's owner. As soon as they both came back with Type 2 results, I did let both breeders know. I also submitted blood samples to Dr Stephanie so they would have their DNA on file to help with PSSM TYPE 2 research. The mare is a total hot crazy crackhead to the 24th power when she's hurting. Love her to death, though!
she's not chicks beduino at all right? |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | I just checked the files on the PSSM Forum and another horse has been added to the Type 2 Positive list. Currently there are 3 AQHA, 1 APHA, and one TB. I'm not sure it's legal for me to share those lines, but if you join the FB forum you can take a look at them. |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | casualdust07 - 2013-11-24 6:18 PM
annemarea - 2013-11-24 6:12 PM
casualdust07 - 2013-11-24 5:40 PM
annemarea - 2013-11-24 9:01 AM
I honestly believe they got the bad rap from PSSM. Mine is a grandson of Chicks Beduino and he got a bad rap at the trainer....trainer blamed the Beduino, too. He ended up testing positive for PSSM Type 2. Makes total sense to me now. It is a genetic disorder, so it just keeps getting passed down to the next generation.
what's the reg name of your other PSSM horse?
She is APHA registered Ima Mighty Patriot. I was able to contact her sire's owner, but not her dam's owner. As soon as they both came back with Type 2 results, I did let both breeders know. I also submitted blood samples to Dr Stephanie so they would have their DNA on file to help with PSSM TYPE 2 research. The mare is a total hot crazy crackhead to the 24th power when she's hurting. Love her to death, though!
she's not chicks beduino at all right?
No. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I pulled them up on all breed and did a hypo mating just to have both of their pedigrees back to back to see if there were any common ancestors. all breed didn't pick up any similar heritage at all between them. So, if it is genetic and I agree it most likely is, I think there's a lot more that needs to be done before we speculate specific horses as carriers.
I definitely agree that they will find a genetic link with PSSM type 2. I just don't think there's enough evidence yet to pin point a specific animal as a source of it. Who's to say the 3YO didn't get it from the Flit to Kill side?
ETA- it very well may also be an environmental deal. What if nutrition has to do with them developing the condition? or something in utero? who knows. There's many conditions that we can create, or trigger…
Edited by casualdust07 2013-11-24 6:43 PM
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 Blackbelt Babe
Posts: 9405
Location: South Georgia Good o'l USA | JMHO...after several years of having them as race horses and trying some as barrel horse prospects, I wouldn't own another bred too close on the bottom side...yes, they are faster than most..and why we love them for the track but they can be just too darn hot for repetitive barrel racing...that said...I own one now a ways back on the top side that I wouldn't trade the world for.
Edited by blackhorse 2013-11-24 6:44 PM
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | casualdust07 - 2013-11-24 6:36 PM I pulled them up on all breed and did a hypo mating just to have both of their pedigrees back to back to see if there were any common ancestors. all breed didn't pick up any similar heritage at all between them. So, if it is genetic and I agree it most likely is, I think there's a lot more that needs to be done before we speculate specific horses as carriers. I definitely agree that they will find a genetic link with PSSM type 2. I just don't think there's enough evidence yet to pin point a specific animal as a source of it. Who's to say the 3YO didn't get it from the Flit to Kill side? ETA- it very well may also be an environmental deal. What if nutrition has to do with them developing the condition? or something in utero? who knows. There's many conditions that we can create, or trigger…
I understand what you are saying. The Flit To Kill side actually has some suspect PSSM Type 1. The only reason I say Beduino is because of the feedback I have gotten from trainers. Now does Flit To Kill have bucking issues? I've had some adamantly tell me no. Do you have some experience with them? They certainly may be carriers of one or the other. I've just read even more evidence on Type 2 coming from TB's. There are now 6 pedigrees listed on FB positive for Type 2.
As far as my mare goes, I have no idea of any of those horses being known buckers. Do you see anything? |
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Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | On Flit to kill,,,, he goes back to yellow jacket several times, top and bottom. And I saw Mittie Stephens SUSPECTED PSSM horses.
Edited by roxieannie 2013-11-24 7:26 PM
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | annemarea - 2013-11-24 4:50 PM
casualdust07 - 2013-11-24 6:36 PM I pulled them up on all breed and did a hypo mating just to have both of their pedigrees back to back to see if there were any common ancestors. all breed didn't pick up any similar heritage at all between them. So, if it is genetic and I agree it most likely is, I think there's a lot more that needs to be done before we speculate specific horses as carriers. I definitely agree that they will find a genetic link with PSSM type 2. I just don't think there's enough evidence yet to pin point a specific animal as a source of it. Who's to say the 3YO didn't get it from the Flit to Kill side? ETA- it very well may also be an environmental deal. What if nutrition has to do with them developing the condition? or something in utero? who knows. There's many conditions that we can create, or trigger…
I understand what you are saying. The Flit To Kill side actually has some suspect PSSM Type 1. The only reason I say Beduino is because of the feedback I have gotten from trainers. Now does Flit To Kill have bucking issues? I've had some adamantly tell me no. Do you have some experience with them? They certainly may be carriers of one or the other. I've just read even more evidence on Type 2 coming from TB's. There are now 6 pedigrees listed on FB positive for Type 2.
As far as my mare goes, I have no idea of any of those horses being known buckers. Do you see anything?
mighty deck WRD |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | roxieannie - 2013-11-24 7:23 PM
On Flit to kill,,,, he goes back to yellow jacket several times, top and bottom. And I saw Mittie Stephens SUSPECTED PSSM horses.
Which is Type 1, right? |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | kwanatha - 2013-11-24 7:29 PM
annemarea - 2013-11-24 4:50 PM
casualdust07 - 2013-11-24 6:36 PM I pulled them up on all breed and did a hypo mating just to have both of their pedigrees back to back to see if there were any common ancestors. all breed didn't pick up any similar heritage at all between them. So, if it is genetic and I agree it most likely is, I think there's a lot more that needs to be done before we speculate specific horses as carriers. I definitely agree that they will find a genetic link with PSSM type 2. I just don't think there's enough evidence yet to pin point a specific animal as a source of it. Who's to say the 3YO didn't get it from the Flit to Kill side? ETA- it very well may also be an environmental deal. What if nutrition has to do with them developing the condition? or something in utero? who knows. There's many conditions that we can create, or trigger…
I understand what you are saying. The Flit To Kill side actually has some suspect PSSM Type 1. The only reason I say Beduino is because of the feedback I have gotten from trainers. Now does Flit To Kill have bucking issues? I've had some adamantly tell me no. Do you have some experience with them? They certainly may be carriers of one or the other. I've just read even more evidence on Type 2 coming from TB's. There are now 6 pedigrees listed on FB positive for Type 2.
As far as my mare goes, I have no idea of any of those horses being known buckers. Do you see anything?
mighty deck WRD
Again, that's Type 1. |
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Bye-Bye Jiggle
Posts: 1691
Location: Where ever there's sunshine! | This guy is fresh off the track and has a 91 si....but there was something about the tracks that made his si not sucha big deal. Either way, hes been a doll to deal with, but I haven't got to ride him yet. Have to wait for his leg to heal. He got caught up in a fence and then took an arse whoopin from another gelding and ripped himself away. I'm headed home for the holidys so hoepfully I'll get to ride him a little by the end of the year. The trainer that handled him said hes pretty easygoijjng and doesnt give them any fuss. However, I was walkin him around and he started acting like a fool. Apparently I was walking him the same direction they walk him when they were headed to the track. Hmm....yeah, he gonna be a handful once he figures out whats going on. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | OP I apologize for your thread turning into a PSSM debate! |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | annemarea - 2013-11-24 6:50 PM
casualdust07 - 2013-11-24 6:36 PM I pulled them up on all breed and did a hypo mating just to have both of their pedigrees back to back to see if there were any common ancestors. all breed didn't pick up any similar heritage at all between them. So, if it is genetic and I agree it most likely is, I think there's a lot more that needs to be done before we speculate specific horses as carriers. I definitely agree that they will find a genetic link with PSSM type 2. I just don't think there's enough evidence yet to pin point a specific animal as a source of it. Who's to say the 3YO didn't get it from the Flit to Kill side? ETA- it very well may also be an environmental deal. What if nutrition has to do with them developing the condition? or something in utero? who knows. There's many conditions that we can create, or trigger…
I understand what you are saying. The Flit To Kill side actually has some suspect PSSM Type 1. The only reason I say Beduino is because of the feedback I have gotten from trainers. Now does Flit To Kill have bucking issues? I've had some adamantly tell me no. Do you have some experience with them? They certainly may be carriers of one or the other. I've just read even more evidence on Type 2 coming from TB's. There are now 6 pedigrees listed on FB positive for Type 2.
As far as my mare goes, I have no idea of any of those horses being known buckers. Do you see anything?
I have no idea. I don't attribute bucking and all behavior all to PSSM. I think there are a ton of reasons for ill behavior and PSSM might be one of those many many causes.
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Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | annemarea - 2013-11-24 7:29 PM roxieannie - 2013-11-24 7:23 PM On Flit to kill,,,, he goes back to yellow jacket several times, top and bottom. And I saw Mittie Stephens SUSPECTED PSSM horses. Which is Type 1, right?
I would assume, type 1. They just say suspected carriers. |
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 Regular
Posts: 78
| Love my Beduino girl!!!! Easiest horse to train and loves people! She is a granddaughter of Beduino and a pretty grey!  |
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Bye-Bye Jiggle
Posts: 1691
Location: Where ever there's sunshine! | casualdust07 - 2013-11-24 7:50 PM
OP I apologize for your thread turning into a PSSM debate!
HAHA no big deal...its a learning point! |
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 Winner winner chicken dinner
Posts: 2047
Location: California | I have a grandson, Beduino on the top. He really didn't enjoy barrels, then took a bad fall at a race and got pretty scared. I could never really get him back after that. His heart just wasn't in it. On top of that, he has navicular issues. I ended up just turning him out and keeping him as a pasture pet. He is a kind hearted creature, who is just a good guy to have around. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 104
Location: Far North! | They do respond better to kindness and once they know what you want they will give you 110%.
Fast, strong and tuff.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 591
| I have a Beduino grandson that is priceless to me. I'm glad I have him a chance before reading all these threads. |
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| Lovin Life - 2013-11-24 2:29 PM
Love, Love, Love!!! Mine has such a huge heart! Very "know it all" mentality, show him once and he thinks he's an NFR horse. lol Very kind, athletic, and can fly!
VERY TRUE!!
If you have to learn how to ride a fast, hard turning and hard gathering horse .... then a Beduino bred horse is NOT FOR YOU.
I love the Royal Quick Dash, Royal Shake Em, This Snow Is Royal, Dashing Cleat, Chicks Beduino and Mr Eye Opener horses for their alertness, quick learning, gentleness and knowing their jobs !! Any horse that is legged up, well fed, well trained and on the muscle is going to be ready to go make their runs at top speed and requires a rider with the skills and reflexes to keep pace for 18 seconds or less!!
Take a look at the different races at the ELITE EXTRAVAGANZA races in Waco last week and pay attention to the money up close Beduino bred horses took home. The times were fast with a new arena record being set and the riders came to win and were hungry to take home the cash .... with almost a 1000 horses competing ... one wrong wiggle would take you out of the winners circle!!
Work on your horsemanship skills and move up in the competition and give everyone a run for the money while riding one of these fast Beduino bred horses ....
BARREL HORSE REPORT ....>>>> http://www.barrelracingreport.com/issues/11_19_13_BarrelRacingRepor...
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 Shelter Dog Hero
Posts: 1184
Location: Mississippi | I have a mare that is traces to Beduino through Runaway Winner. She is as good a horse as a person could want. She was 1D/2D barrels and 20 second poles before retiring at a young age to be a babysitter for those learning to ride and run barrels. She is the only horse that a special needs kid can ride by herself. She is as good as gold and dead honest. If a beginner pulls the wrong way, she still just gets in the right position and turns the barrel for them. As a side note...she does not have PSSM.
She is bred to have a foal that will add some DTF to her bloodlines. If the baby is half as honest as her, I will have a good one. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1229
Location: Royal J Performance Horses, AZ | You know I hate to be the one that says just because of breeding all horses are this this or that, but honestly. I'm starting to fall into that category a little! I had a Corona Czech mare that I really liked! Now granted beduino was a little far back on her but we got a long well.
Right now I have a great grandson of beduino that is double beduino on top on his papers out of a Strawflyin Buds mare and I wont lie this little booger drives me up the wall. He's argumentative about everything. I could ask as quiet and gentle as someone can and still not get him to cooperate. He's a bull headed SOB.
But he wont stop me from getting another beduino bred horse down the line. I liked the mare I had and would definitely give them another go. |
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Angel in a Sorrel Coat
Posts: 16030
Location: In a happy place | I forgot to add but see that others have......they are really people oriented horses. They very attached to the people in their lives. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 584
Location: MS | I just bought a 3yr old filly that is a granddaughter of Chicks Beduino on the sires side and so far I absolutely love her! She's my first ever to own with Beduino in her lines and for months I wouldn't even inquire on her because of everything I read on here, but something told me I should, so I did. After I rode her, I could tell she was a fit for me and so far she has really impressed me. She has so much try and want to and everything she's been shown, she takes right to it and just seems so happy to work for you. It doesn't matter if I ride her daily or once a week, she's the same horse and that is actually what sold me on her. First time I rode her was at a show, her first time ever to be in a crowd, had not been ridden for two weeks prior by owners, and she acted like a seasoned horse. Even got ran into by a couple of youths (small warm up area) and she never faultered. First time to do exh was at a big show and she had to wait in holding pen forever and she just hung out like it was no big deal and took it all in stride. Love, love her! |
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 Scorpions R Us
Posts: 9586
Location: So. Cali. | As for the Beduino discussion- I have a great grand daughter on the paternal side. LOVE her. Very naturally athletic and huge work ethic. She can be a handful at races, but she is the first horse I will put a beginner on at home. And smart! Tries her hardest to understand whatever you're asking of her and once prasied, its logged.
Also had a great grand son on the paternal side. Got him as a 2yr old off the track. Most laid back easy going big boy I've been around. Again, I'd put beginners on him and head down the trail. Lightly patterned him before selling. He also perked up at races, but easy as could be in the backyard.
Both were purchased fresh off the track, both I got on the second day I had them and went to work.
Now as the for PSSM discussion - I had never heard it linked to Beduino before but defiantly caught my attention! My mare has something up with her muscles. I did the hair sample and she was negative for PSSM 1, and I dont think I want to put her thru the muscle biopsy. So I have her on a "PSSM diet" and defiantly notice a difference.
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boon
Posts: 2
| I've have had Beduino's consistently in my breeding program since he originally stood for $1,200, more than 25 years ago. I stood a son of Beduino and he was a total joy to have around. Very respectful, kind and easy to handle. All my Beduinos have been simply amazing going into second careers when their race days were over. You show me a bad Beduino, I'll show you someone who rough handled them along the way. Besides being superb athletes, they are highly intelligent. And they don't forget. Like the previous post, my Separatist barrel gelding, who's ready to hit the road, is outstanding just like his siblings. They are sweet, kind, willing, talented and are a joy to have around. And Fast! Not one of mine are "hot" and they've all gone on to excel in 2nd careers. Like all 2nd career horses, you don't jam it to them. Give them some extra time, and you will be rewarded. You are missing the boat if you don't give a Befduino bred a chance to take you to the pay window. |
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boon
Posts: 2
| Check out ad #198638 |
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Scorpions R Us
Posts: 9586
Location: So. Cali. | Sharon3333 - 2013-11-25 9:19 AM I've have had Beduino's consistently in my breeding program since he originally stood for $1,200, more than 25 years ago. I stood a son of Beduino and he was a total joy to have around. Very respectful, kind and easy to handle. All my Beduinos have been simply amazing going into second careers when their race days were over. You show me a bad Beduino, I'll show you someone who rough handled them along the way. Besides being superb athletes, they are highly intelligent. And they don't forget. Like the previous post, my Separatist barrel gelding, who's ready to hit the road, is outstanding just like his siblings. They are sweet, kind, willing, talented and are a joy to have around. And Fast! Not one of mine are "hot" and they've all gone on to excel in 2nd careers. Like all 2nd career horses, you don't jam it to them. Give them some extra time, and you will be rewarded. You are missing the boat if you don't give a Befduino bred a chance to take you to the pay window.
I want to second this statement. I could so easily see with either of my Beduinos mentioned that in the wrong hands they could become 'bad'. My mare is sensitive as was the gelding. I think especially with my mare, she could've easily been 'blown up' in the wrong rough hands.
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| People are saying they are sensitive, but my mare (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/full+moons+bo+tie )is as solid as a rock with everything. I dont think you could blow her up if you tried. She has been that way since I purchased her at age 7.
Edited by Whiteboy 2016-02-02 3:56 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1034
| Sharon3333 - 2013-11-25 11:19 AM
I've have had Beduino's consistently in my breeding program since he originally stood for $1,200, more than 25 years ago. I stood a son of Beduino and he was a total joy to have around. Very respectful, kind and easy to handle. All my Beduinos have been simply amazing going into second careers when their race days were over. You show me a bad Beduino, I'll show you someone who rough handled them along the way. Besides being superb athletes, they are highly intelligent. And they don't forget. Like the previous post, my Separatist barrel gelding, who's ready to hit the road, is outstanding just like his siblings. They are sweet, kind, willing, talented and are a joy to have around. And Fast! Not one of mine are "hot" and they've all gone on to excel in 2nd careers. Like all 2nd career horses, you don't jam it to them. Give them some extra time, and you will be rewarded. You are missing the boat if you don't give a Befduino bred a chance to take you to the pay window.
True true. I like how everyone says horses don't cause their problems, their people do - unless you're talking about a Beduino. I think a lot of that comes from people who aren't able to work with them due to their own human failings. I loved mine, and I'd love to have more. |
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The Expert Expert
Posts: 3455
Location: Western performance horse Hades | There are exceptions, but statistically speaking, Beduino is better for barrel racing through maternal lines rather than the sire line. If I write about successful horses with Beduino in their lineage its usally as a broodmare sire or even on the broodmare line of the sire. I say this after looking a 16 years worth of Equi-Stat statistics. |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming |
I agree with this too. My stud also has whiteboy's hated Chicks Deck. His only issue is being too kind hearted and he got his feelings hurt easy. Anyone could have got along with him as long as they didn't beat him.
VF Burrs Eye
and the stud I lost was double bred Beduino and as kind as they come.
Denali Royal Silk |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| wyoming barrel racer - 2013-11-25 1:45 PM I agree with this too. My stud also has whiteboy's hated Chicks Deck. His only issue is being too kind hearted and he got his feelings hurt easy. Anyone could have got along with him as long as they didn't beat him.
VF Burrs Eye
and the stud I lost was double bred Beduino and as kind as they come.
Denali Royal Silk
Hey any line can try and kill me once, maybe even twice, but do it three times, I hold a grudge! All were maternal grandaughters of chicks deck.
As far as Denali Royal Silk, it still makes me sick that you lost him. He was an absolute beauty. |
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Vodka for Lunch
Location: Lala Land | sorrel horse ranch - 2013-11-25 8:43 AM I forgot to add but see that others have......they are really people oriented horses. They very attached to the people in their lives.
Agreed!! We got ours right off the track, he was a little stand offish but still kind... just did anything you ask. After a few weeks of being mauled by me he really started going out of his way for us. Now he nickers when he sees you, and when riding him I find myself reassuring him saying "good boy" and every time I do he moves his ears back and forth takes a deep breath. He's the MOST adorable horse I've ever had, so responsive to love!! |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Whiteboy - 2013-11-25 1:10 PM wyoming barrel racer - 2013-11-25 1:45 PM I agree with this too. My stud also has whiteboy's hated Chicks Deck. His only issue is being too kind hearted and he got his feelings hurt easy. Anyone could have got along with him as long as they didn't beat him.
VF Burrs Eye
and the stud I lost was double bred Beduino and as kind as they come.
Denali Royal Silk
As far as Denali Royal Silk, it still makes me sick that you lost him. He was an absolute beauty.
Hope so, because we sure love this girl and she has Special Effort twice. Edited because she also has Beduino twice (no wonder I love her)
Special Lil Ivory
Edited by wyoming barrel racer 2013-11-25 3:06 PM
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Lovin Life - 2013-11-25 3:03 PM sorrel horse ranch - 2013-11-25 8:43 AM I forgot to add but see that others have......they are really people oriented horses. They very attached to the people in their lives. Agreed!! We got ours right off the track, he was a little stand offish but still kind... just did anything you ask. After a few weeks of being mauled by me he really started going out of his way for us. Now he nickers when he sees you, and when riding him I find myself reassuring him saying "good boy" and every time I do he moves his ears back and forth takes a deep breath. He's the MOST adorable horse I've ever had, so responsive to love!!
I do nearly the same thing with my gelding. But I lightly pinch him infront of the saddle blanket on his mane. You can just feel him relax. |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| wyoming barrel racer - 2013-11-25 3:04 PM Whiteboy - 2013-11-25 1:10 PM wyoming barrel racer - 2013-11-25 1:45 PM I agree with this too. My stud also has whiteboy's hated Chicks Deck. His only issue is being too kind hearted and he got his feelings hurt easy. Anyone could have got along with him as long as they didn't beat him.
VF Burrs Eye
and the stud I lost was double bred Beduino and as kind as they come.
Denali Royal Silk
As far as Denali Royal Silk, it still makes me sick that you lost him. He was an absolute beauty.
Hope so, because we sure love this girl and she has Special Effort twice. Edited because she also has Beduino twice (no wonder I love her)
Special Lil Ivory
Geeze, not a hole in those papers. Nicely bred! |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| blackhorse - 2013-11-24 6:42 PM JMHO...after several years of having them as race horses and trying some as barrel horse prospects, I wouldn't own another bred too close on the bottom side...yes, they are faster than most..and why we love them for the track but they can be just too darn hot for repetitive barrel racing...that said...I own one now a ways back on the top side that I wouldn't trade the world for.
As a broodmare sire he produced over $217,000 in verifiable equistat earnings. |
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Member
Posts: 15
| Wow! Checked out your colt.....He's Awesome! |
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![](<a href="http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/andersmk5/media/horse/20141010_173339-1_zpsv5eadqyj.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1033.photob) Regular
Posts: 76
| this is an old thread but after a year of searching I finally found my mares papers and she is a granddaughter of chicks beduino! Reading through the previous posts and im amazed by how well her personality fits in with this bloodline! She is definitely a hot horse and its proving hard to train her on barrels! Shes a know it all, do something once and all of a sudden shes an expert at it! She can be a b**** but grows very attached to people! And the first thing she taught me is that if I want ANYTHING from her I must ask quietly. Getting mad or forcing her to do something and she WILL put up a fight and you have no chance at winning |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| My colt who I love dearly is a grandson. I know its one in four horses but I feel its really made a difference in him. He's flighty, sensitive, but not a mean bone in his body. I've known all the hands thats touched him from his breeders who owned the mare and stud, the vet, his race trainer, his groom, his jock, and his exercise riders. He has never been mistreated or handled rough in any way. Yet, he frets the trailer ride and exhibitions. At home is a dead head but get him out in town and he comes alive. My SO hates him and keeps trying to send him down the road. But he is sweet as pie and his light bulb just came on to where he is trying so he's sticking around a lil longer.
I've had Beduinos who ran nice patterns but were very sensitive mentally. Never had a real consistent one but my SO had a grandson that would cut the clock off when he got his run. |
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