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Veteran
Posts: 185
 
| I was just wondering if anyone has heard anything new. I've been thinking about it recently and I'm back and forth personally. On one hand it would be nice to give geldings/spayed mares the chance to impact the next generation. I do think cloning could be taken to far and reduce the breeds already limited genetic variation. (I think frenchmans guy will become common soon enough).
BUT I can't help think of those nice geldings (especially) who were deprived of that chance (yes for reasons at the time) but some prove there stuff and should be given the chance in my opinion...and if cloning can give them it, why not? In this instance wouldn't it increase the breds variation?
Maybe AQHA should make up a rule like: "Cloning of gelded or spayed AQHA registered horses is allowed and the AQHA permits the registration of said clone(s) and its resulting offspring"
Maybe even putting a # of clones limit or something
As far as horses who have had their shot at breeding (unless limited to do so by injury, premature death or something) maybe it shouldn't be allowed (registerable clones and offspring).
IMO
Thoughs
P.S Just me pondering | |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
 
| There was a reason it was gelded...did it have a bad mind crooked legs? And nor aqha needs to leave tx | |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | They do NOT have to allow clones at this time as the appeal is going through but they DO have to set in motion the rules/regulations to register them. | |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | I happen to like cloning. I don't have a problem with it at all. I would bred to one if I had the money and a mare that would/could benefit from a particular cross.
I wish there was a registery just because I love to read about blood lines and crosses etc. . . It would be cool to be able to track the success rates if it were all in one place.
I don't have a problem with AQHA chosing not to register.
I do have a problem with the government telling a private organization that they HAVE to make rule changes for their organization. I just think it should be a market issue. But that's just me. I believe if they becme profitable, someone brilliant and talented will start a company that registers clones...when dollars get involved AQHA will either change the rule (like changing the white rule) or not, but should be a decission by members and board, not a court.
I have heard/read nothing new.
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | Swannranch - 2013-12-10 7:52 PM I happen to like cloning. I don't have a problem with it at all. I would bred to one if I had the money and a mare that would/could benefit from a particular cross.
I wish there was a registery just because I love to read about blood lines and crosses etc. . . It would be cool to be able to track the success rates if it were all in one place.
I don't have a problem with AQHA chosing not to register.
I do have a problem with the government telling a private organization that they HAVE to make rule changes for their organization. I just think it should be a market issue. But that's just me. I believe if they becme profitable, someone brilliant and talented will start a company that registers clones...when dollars get involved AQHA will either change the rule (like changing the white rule) or not, but should be a decission by members and board, not a court.
I have heard/read nothing new.
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Swannranch - 2013-12-10 6:52 PM I happen to like cloning. I don't have a problem with it at all. I would bred to one if I had the money and a mare that would/could benefit from a particular cross.
I wish there was a registery just because I love to read about blood lines and crosses etc. . . It would be cool to be able to track the success rates if it were all in one place.
I don't have a problem with AQHA chosing not to register.
I do have a problem with the government telling a private organization that they HAVE to make rule changes for their organization. I just think it should be a market issue. But that's just me. I believe if they becme profitable, someone brilliant and talented will start a company that registers clones...when dollars get involved AQHA will either change the rule (like changing the white rule) or not, but should be a decission by members and board, not a court.
I have heard/read nothing new.
not a fan of it, but I like your thinking | |
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Veteran
Posts: 185
| aqhabarrelchic1 - 2013-12-10 9:11 AM
There was a reason it was gelded...did it have a bad mind crooked legs? And nor aqha needs to leave tx
Not all geldings are gelded because of some terrible conformation or crazy mind. There are many great gelding who where gelded because most males are gelded and more marketable. | |
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 Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | As a small breeder, when I sell a colt as a gelding--there is a reason for it. It was my choice to geld the colt and the buyers choice to buy him as a GELDING. IMO---it goes against the purchase agreement for the colt to be cloned and reproduce. I look for people to start specifically putting this in purchase contracts. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 9:15 AM As a small breeder, when I sell a colt as a gelding--there is a reason for it. It was my choice to geld the colt and the buyers choice to buy him as a GELDING. IMO---it goes against the purchase agreement for the colt to be cloned and reproduce. I look for people to start specifically putting this in purchase contracts.
that would just be an added line to a purchase contract... NBD IMO
I agree with Swan's comment above. | |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | I don't have an issue with cloning. But I do have an issue with owners who KNEW upfront that they were not registerable, forcing their agenda on the AQHA. At the very least I believe the qestion of registration should be decided by a consensus of the membrship, not the courts. IMHO it is going eventually going to impact every member economically.
Edited by SC Wrangler 2013-12-11 9:24 AM
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 Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | aqhabarrelchic1 - 2013-12-10 7:11 PM
There was a reason it was gelded...did it have a bad mind crooked legs? And nor aqha needs to leave tx
This is an ignorant response in my opinion. Why in the heck would they even spend the tens of thousands of dollars (heck maybe even hundreds of thousands, I don't know what the average clone is running these days) to clone a bad minded or crooked legged horse? Do you think Scamper won 10 gold buckles with a terrible mind and crooked legs? What about Hotshot? Think he dominated barrel racing for decades with bad conformation?
Maybe they got a rough start to life, or a moronic trainer that put them a little behind, until they eventually found their way into the hands of someone who knew what they were doing and gave them the chance to excel the way they both did. I'm not saying they would have definitely accomplished all that they did if left as stallions, but we don't know.
I'm not here to be pro or anti-cloning, that can be left up to each individual's moral compass, and my opinion isn't likely to sway anyone else's anyway. But there's no reason to bash the horses being cloned, or say they aren't worthy, they're worthy to their owners and their the ones paying for it. Also goes for those breeding to them and/or purchasing offspring.
I don't understand why people always end up being so nasty about it. If you support cloning, fine. If you don't, fine. No need to shove opinions down each others throats. Including suing a private organization who clearly is not a supporter.
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | SC Wrangler - 2013-12-11 7:23 AM I don't have an issue with cloning. But I do have an issue with owners who KNEW upfront that they were not registerable, forcing their agenda on the AQHA. At the very least I believe the qestion of registration should be decided by a consensus of the membrship, not the courts. IMHO it is going eventually going to impact every member economically.
This strongly agreed with. ^^^^^ | |
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 Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | CowgirlLindz - 2013-12-10 11:53 PM aqhabarrelchic1 - 2013-12-10 9:11 AM There was a reason it was gelded...did it have a bad mind crooked legs? And nor aqha needs to leave tx Not all geldings are gelded because of some terrible conformation or crazy mind. There are many great gelding who where gelded because most males are gelded and more marketable.
Stallions are gelded because they are not breeding quality. Breed to better the breed. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | BamaCanChaser - 2013-12-11 8:48 AM aqhabarrelchic1 - 2013-12-10 7:11 PM There was a reason it was gelded...did it have a bad mind crooked legs? And nor aqha needs to leave tx This is an ignorant response in my opinion. Why in the heck would they even spend the tens of thousands of dollars (heck maybe even hundreds of thousands, I don't know what the average clone is running these days ) to clone a bad minded or crooked legged horse? Do you think Scamper won 10 gold buckles with a terrible mind and crooked legs? What about Hotshot? Think he dominated barrel racing for decades with bad conformation? Maybe they got a rough start to life, or a moronic trainer that put them a little behind, until they eventually found their way into the hands of someone who knew what they were doing and gave them the chance to excel the way they both did. I'm not saying they would have definitely accomplished all that they did if left as stallions, but we don't know. I'm not here to be pro or anti-cloning, that can be left up to each individual's moral compass, and my opinion isn't likely to sway anyone else's anyway. But there's no reason to bash the horses being cloned, or say they aren't worthy, they're worthy to their owners and their the ones paying for it. Also goes for those breeding to them and/or purchasing offspring. I don't understand why people always end up being so nasty about it. If you support cloning, fine. If you don't, fine. No need to shove opinions down each others throats. Including suing a private organization who clearly is not a supporter.
In a time when everyone is whinning about there being too many horses and not enough homes for them, we sure need 16549416519 more grade stallions producing babies.
Scamper had a horrible disposition, especially when younger. He is commonly bred and was not really good at anything until Charmayne rode the hair off him all day long. She finally made him into something nobody else could. If he'd have been a stallion Charmayne would not have had him (he would have been an unruly stallion in the hands of a teen). Not something it's wise to do for any parent. Most likely he would have totally sucked as a barrel horse *stallion*.
Finally what makes your opinion any more valid and less ignorant than aqhabarrelchics? 
ETA: So what I'm trying to say is this: It was Scampers destiny to be gelded and be purchased as a mount for a teenage girl called Charmayne. It was his destiny to be the 10 time world champion in the hands of that girl. Change any part of the equation and he would have been a zero, never to be heard from...ever.
Edited by OregonBR 2013-12-11 2:14 PM
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 Veteran
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| I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. | |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave.
This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 208
| Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and not referring to FG either. There are big name cutting stallions cloned, too. Someone is always cheating the system, no matter what the system is. There is no way to disprove this.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | ride n slide - 2013-12-11 12:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So AQHA needs to leave TX or figure out a way to enforce their rules without losing in court every time someone wants something changed.  | |
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Veteran
Posts: 185
| Actually there is a way to determine if the real (say Frenchmans guy) or one of his clones donated. The clones mitochondrial DNA will differ from that of the real FG (unless his mother or some mare from her female line was the surrogate egg donor). I'm pretty sure you could test the small amount of mitochondrial DNA on the sperm's flagella and if it doesn't correspond with FG's mitochondrial DNA than its his clone who donated.
Personally (PLEASE NOTE this is from a biological perspective!!! forget people intervening at all!). It is in any species best interest to have as variable a genetic pool as possible. So we can/could say that gelding is not benefiting horses or the "breed". I AM NOT SAY GELDING IS BAD OR THAT ALL MALES SHOULD BE LEFT INTACT! THERE ARE MANY MANY REASONS BECAUSE HORSES ARE NOT WILD ANYMORE AND WE PEOPLE HAVE INTERVED!
* This is my thought as to why it probably wouldn't be so bad to allow some of the otherwise excluded variation into the breed (and most likely some very successful exclusions indeed!!)
* As I recall Dash for Cash was going to be gelded because he wasn't the nicest looking colt born that year on the farm. From what I read an accident provented him from surgery (I believe his shoulder was stitched and it would have reopened the stitched wound). So yes I believe we make guesses as to what we consider "breedable quality" but we are human and mistakes are made. How can we be sure that plan bred colt isn't the next world champ? Sure geld him but at least cloning would give us a second chance.
I'm a science (biology) major and I love a good biological debate! Throw in horses and I'm hooked! lol
IMHO | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | There is no way to tell the difference between the original and the clones semen.  | |
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Expert
Posts: 3127
| ride n slide - 2013-12-11 2:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave.
I think you have hit the nai l right on the head.You and everyone who breeds has had this same thought .
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So next question, if there is no way to tell the difference in cloned or original.....and there is no difference in the colt born...what difference does it make?
Although I have read several articles that clearly explain how the DNA can be identified as from cloned animal or original animal, but it's expensive and would have to be performed on every straw that went out. Not very likely.
There will be those that will (and have) found a way to cheat. So a registeration seperate from AQHA or part of AQHA would at least give them incentive to do it correctly and legally.
The curiosity to me is not if they can read the DNA of the donar, but if they can tell a difference in the foals DNA.
Isn't there a story that Easy Jet was possibly not sired by Jet Deck but by Iron Bird? There was some question about this and I have read that it was fairly common in the old days for breders to name the wrong sires. I have no idea if that's true, but I have read a few books and even read people here talking about "hearing" about it back in the day.
Edited by Swannranch 2013-12-11 8:22 PM
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 Chicken Chick
Posts: 3562
Location: Texas | aqhabarrelchic1 - 2013-12-10 7:11 PM
There was a reason it was gelded...did it have a bad mind crooked legs? And nor aqha needs to leave tx
The reason could also be that the person didn't have the time, facilities, know how, or want to... to handle a stallion. So gelding solved all of their problems. It could be no fault to the horse that it was gelded, just sort of wrong place wrong time. Before my colt was born I knew that if it was a colt I was gelding him. Had nothing to do with him, I just don't want a stud and probably never will. So any horse that goes through my hands will be a gelding, or gelded shortly after I get it. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | What this is all leading to...is the elephant in the room:
Have Breed Associations have outlived their relevance?
While a fraction of the community participate in breed Shows, the majority of the money that drives the horse industry is made in events (reining, cutting, racing) most of which happen through other organizations.
If you look at AQHA, APHA, or ApHC, - the reining horses look NOTHING like the hunters, yet they claim to be the same breed. No. There is ZERO "breed type" in any of these breeds, so really- what is the point?
Form follows function, and indeed it is. | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | Phoenix98 - 2013-12-11 9:29 PM What this is all leading to...is the elephant in the room: Have Breed Associations have outlived their relevance? While a fraction of the community participate in breed Shows, the majority of the money that drives the horse industry is made in events (reining, cutting, racing) most of which happen through other organizations. If you look at AQHA, APHA, or ApHC, - the reining horses look NOTHING like the hunters, yet they claim to be the same breed. No. There is ZERO "breed type" in any of these breeds, so really- what is the point? Form follows function, and indeed it is.
agreed | |
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| Good current topic! I just have to comment on something. People in the horse business cheat, lie, WHAT? Are you kidding? Sorry, but it was too funny when I read that. Ever hear of the term "Horse Trader", or Horse jockey used in a derogatory way? As for registering the clones, why not? If they have a way to prove the lineage w/DNA there may be better horses out there from the past that can actually better the bred. | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | I have to say, I was a bit intrigued to hear a Clayton foal come into the pen being announced as being sired by Gills Bay Boy tonight. | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | WrapSnap - 2013-12-11 10:42 PM I have to say, I was a bit intrigued to hear a Clayton foal come into the pen being announced as being sired by Gills Bay Boy tonight.
jmo, but i tend to think that's a little deceiving....... | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | dhdqhllc - 2013-12-11 10:51 PM
WrapSnap - 2013-12-11 10:42 PM I have to say, I was a bit intrigued to hear a Clayton foal come into the pen being announced as being sired by Gills Bay Boy tonight.
jmo, but i tend to think that's a little deceiving.......
it was definitely the way they announced the pedigree info. Alan then commented that he hadn't been aware that the clones could have the original's name. | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | WrapSnap - 2013-12-11 11:23 PM dhdqhllc - 2013-12-11 10:51 PM WrapSnap - 2013-12-11 10:42 PM I have to say, I was a bit intrigued to hear a Clayton foal come into the pen being announced as being sired by Gills Bay Boy tonight. jmo, but i tend to think that's a little deceiving....... it was definitely the way they announced the pedigree info. Alan then commented that he hadn't been aware that the clones could have the original's name.
it's not like everyone doesn't know Clayton.....i just don't think it's the marketing tactic i would take......maybe once his offspring have more success they will announce the sire as the legendary producer Clayton.... | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | yeah...that's not cool. If anything, it should just be "Gils Bay Boy Clone" | |
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Expert
Posts: 2121
Location: The Great Northwest | I will agree that wasn't an igonant opinion. We all are welcomed to state our opinion. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 208
| Swannranch - 2013-12-11 9:19 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So next question, if there is no way to tell the difference in cloned or original.....and there is no difference in the colt born...what difference does it make?
Although I have read several articles that clearly explain how the DNA can be identified as from cloned animal or original animal, but it's expensive and would have to be performed on every straw that went out. Not very likely.
There will be those that will (and have) found a way to cheat. So a registeration seperate from AQHA or part of AQHA would at least give them incentive to do it correctly and legally.
The curiosity to me is not if they can read the DNA of the donar, but if they can tell a difference in the foals DNA.
Isn't there a story that Easy Jet was possibly not sired by Jet Deck but by Iron Bird? There was some question about this and I have read that it was fairly common in the old days for breders to name the wrong sires. I have no idea if that's true, but I have read a few books and even read people here talking about "hearing" about it back in the day.
My point was that DNA can't tell the difference. As to the clone being just as good and "so what" if its not the original proven sire, clones don't just automatically produce carbon copies of the original super star. Just ask people like Phil Rapp who has some cloned horse that aren't worth a fraction of the original because their performance has been dismal and disappointing. There's a reason so many clones are never trained. Too much to prove. | |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | ride n slide - 2013-12-12 10:10 PM Swannranch - 2013-12-11 9:19 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So next question, if there is no way to tell the difference in cloned or original.....and there is no difference in the colt born...what difference does it make?
Although I have read several articles that clearly explain how the DNA can be identified as from cloned animal or original animal, but it's expensive and would have to be performed on every straw that went out. Not very likely.
There will be those that will (and have) found a way to cheat. So a registeration seperate from AQHA or part of AQHA would at least give them incentive to do it correctly and legally.
The curiosity to me is not if they can read the DNA of the donar, but if they can tell a difference in the foals DNA.
Isn't there a story that Easy Jet was possibly not sired by Jet Deck but by Iron Bird? There was some question about this and I have read that it was fairly common in the old days for breders to name the wrong sires. I have no idea if that's true, but I have read a few books and even read people here talking about "hearing" about it back in the day.
I agree, but every sire throws duds. Some are great, others...not so much. Depending on the number of get, No stud bats a thousand.
So if a colt by a famous stud and a colt by a clone are genetically identical. . . (sire's side) what is the difference? So registration (not necessarily AQHA) would be incentive to register then and stay honest. No registration could be a reason to sell as an original in stead of being honest.
As far as announcing Gills Bay Boy as the sire, hmmmm perhaps there is no other way to list them at this time. Technically, he is genetically the same animal...sort of just in a test tube to receive seman. If anyone ever registers Clones, the lineage will be interesting, but I think the parentage needs an addendium in the name.
How did he do?
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Swannranch - 2013-12-11 6:19 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So next question, if there is no way to tell the difference in cloned or original.....and there is no difference in the colt born...what difference does it make?
Although I have read several articles that clearly explain how the DNA can be identified as from cloned animal or original animal, but it's expensive and would have to be performed on every straw that went out. Not very likely.
There will be those that will (and have) found a way to cheat. So a registeration seperate from AQHA or part of AQHA would at least give them incentive to do it correctly and legally.
The curiosity to me is not if they can read the DNA of the donar, but if they can tell a difference in the foals DNA.
Isn't there a story that Easy Jet was possibly not sired by Jet Deck but by Iron Bird? There was some question about this and I have read that it was fairly common in the old days for breders to name the wrong sires. I have no idea if that's true, but I have read a few books and even read people here talking about "hearing" about it back in the day.
Easy Jet was foaled in 1967. Iron Bird was foaled in 1973. | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | OregonBR - 2013-12-13 11:29 AM Swannranch - 2013-12-11 6:19 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So next question, if there is no way to tell the difference in cloned or original.....and there is no difference in the colt born...what difference does it make?
Although I have read several articles that clearly explain how the DNA can be identified as from cloned animal or original animal, but it's expensive and would have to be performed on every straw that went out. Not very likely.
There will be those that will (and have) found a way to cheat. So a registeration seperate from AQHA or part of AQHA would at least give them incentive to do it correctly and legally.
The curiosity to me is not if they can read the DNA of the donar, but if they can tell a difference in the foals DNA.
Isn't there a story that Easy Jet was possibly not sired by Jet Deck but by Iron Bird? There was some question about this and I have read that it was fairly common in the old days for breders to name the wrong sires. I have no idea if that's true, but I have read a few books and even read people here talking about "hearing" about it back in the day.
haven't you ever heard of time travel??? | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Tricky semen. It brings the clone discussion to a whole new high. lol
It's not that I'm disputing that people lie, commit fraud, etc... I've seen it with my own eyes. I'm sure the insiders at AQHA could tell us some stories about horses that don't have the right parentage to match their DNA. But what are you going to do? I'm supposing they decided to let sleeping dogs lie (sp?) and go forward with keeping people honest in the present.
Back to the topic: The semen from a clone vs the original. The MtDNA won't be present on/in the semen. MtDNA comes from the shell of the egg. There is no way to tell the difference after the semen is in the can or results in a foal. | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | OregonBR - 2013-12-13 11:56 AM Tricky semen. It brings the clone discussion to a whole new high. lol
It's not that I'm disputing that people lie, commit fraud, etc... I've seen it with my own eyes. I'm sure the insiders at AQHA could tell us some stories about horses that don't have the right parentage to match their DNA. But what are you going to do? I'm supposing they decided to let sleeping dogs lie (sp?) and go forward with keeping people honest in the present.
Back to the topic: The semen from a clone vs the original. The MtDNA won't be present on/in the semen. MtDNA comes from the shell of the egg. There is no way to tell the difference after the semen is in the can or results in a foal.
there would be a way to 'tag' the semen but that is an expensive proposition......but along that line, you should be able to track the mtDA in a cloned mares offspring..... | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | dhdqhllc - 2013-12-13 10:14 AM OregonBR - 2013-12-13 11:56 AM Tricky semen. It brings the clone discussion to a whole new high. lol
It's not that I'm disputing that people lie, commit fraud, etc... I've seen it with my own eyes. I'm sure the insiders at AQHA could tell us some stories about horses that don't have the right parentage to match their DNA. But what are you going to do? I'm supposing they decided to let sleeping dogs lie (sp?) and go forward with keeping people honest in the present.
Back to the topic: The semen from a clone vs the original. The MtDNA won't be present on/in the semen. MtDNA comes from the shell of the egg. There is no way to tell the difference after the semen is in the can or results in a foal.
Foals out of a cloned mare would have some differences in the MtDNA if the egg was from a different mare. But if the egg was from the original mare, it would be impossible to tell the difference between her own foals and her clones foals. | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | OregonBR - 2013-12-13 12:22 PM dhdqhllc - 2013-12-13 10:14 AM OregonBR - 2013-12-13 11:56 AM Tricky semen. It brings the clone discussion to a whole new high. lol
It's not that I'm disputing that people lie, commit fraud, etc... I've seen it with my own eyes. I'm sure the insiders at AQHA could tell us some stories about horses that don't have the right parentage to match their DNA. But what are you going to do? I'm supposing they decided to let sleeping dogs lie (sp?) and go forward with keeping people honest in the present.
Back to the topic: The semen from a clone vs the original. The MtDNA won't be present on/in the semen. MtDNA comes from the shell of the egg. There is no way to tell the difference after the semen is in the can or results in a foal.
thus proving that all the DNA came from the cloned horse.....hmmm....a 'true' clone.... | |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | dhdqhllc - 2013-12-13 12:42 PM OregonBR - 2013-12-13 11:29 AM Swannranch - 2013-12-11 6:19 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So next question, if there is no way to tell the difference in cloned or original.....and there is no difference in the colt born...what difference does it make?
Although I have read several articles that clearly explain how the DNA can be identified as from cloned animal or original animal, but it's expensive and would have to be performed on every straw that went out. Not very likely.
There will be those that will (and have) found a way to cheat. So a registeration seperate from AQHA or part of AQHA would at least give them incentive to do it correctly and legally.
The curiosity to me is not if they can read the DNA of the donar, but if they can tell a difference in the foals DNA.
Isn't there a story that Easy Jet was possibly not sired by Jet Deck but by Iron Bird? There was some question about this and I have read that it was fairly common in the old days for breders to name the wrong sires. I have no idea if that's true, but I have read a few books and even read people here talking about "hearing" about it back in the day.
Well I have the possible sire wrong, but there is still a story that a lot of people believe, that Jet Deck was not the sire of Easy Jet. I read it for the first time on here. Sorry I can't remember who the other sire is suspected to be.
I do find the cloning interesting, and look forward to reading more about the science as well as the registration information. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 208
| Swannranch - 2013-12-13 11:46 AM ride n slide - 2013-12-12 10:10 PM Swannranch - 2013-12-11 9:19 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So next question, if there is no way to tell the difference in cloned or original.....and there is no difference in the colt born...what difference does it make?
Although I have read several articles that clearly explain how the DNA can be identified as from cloned animal or original animal, but it's expensive and would have to be performed on every straw that went out. Not very likely.
There will be those that will (and have) found a way to cheat. So a registeration seperate from AQHA or part of AQHA would at least give them incentive to do it correctly and legally.
The curiosity to me is not if they can read the DNA of the donar, but if they can tell a difference in the foals DNA.
Isn't there a story that Easy Jet was possibly not sired by Jet Deck but by Iron Bird? There was some question about this and I have read that it was fairly common in the old days for breders to name the wrong sires. I have no idea if that's true, but I have read a few books and even read people here talking about "hearing" about it back in the day.
So if a colt by a famous stud and a colt by a clone are genetically identical. . . (sire's side) what is the difference? So registration (not necessarily AQHA) would be incentive to register then and stay honest. No registration could be a reason to sell as an original in stead of being honest.
As far as announcing Gills Bay Boy as the sire, hmmmm perhaps there is no other way to list them at this time. Technically, he is genetically the same animal...sort of just in a test tube to receive seman. If anyone ever registers Clones, the lineage will be interesting, but I think the parentage needs an addendium in the name.
How did he do?
Interesting points on this thread, but as for above post,I don't think you are comparing apples with apples. A stud is bred to different mares: different genes and even twins/full siblings have varying genetic make-up. But a clone has ABSOLUTE identical genetic make-up as the donor, doesn't it? So shouldn't it be identicl in every way? Including its siring abilities? But then you get different markings than the donor, as in Clayton, so I must admit the more I think about it the more confused I am! | |
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AQHA cloning lawsuit updates? opinions?