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 Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
     
Location: Around here somewhere... | (ETA- though I appreciate the intent behind the advice, I am not looking for advice, I am ONLY presenting the following cases as a starter for discussion, to help people think of different lameness scenerios. FWIW the gelding is not mine and I will NOT be putting any more money into the mare. :) Thanks! )
How lame is too lame? Is it ethical to ride a horse who has to be on bute/banamine in order to be comfortable enough to ride? Is it ethical to ride a mildly lame horse WITHOUT bute/banamine? Is it ethical to leave a horse who is mildly lame "out to pasture" without medication? (by "mildly lame", I mean a horse who may or may not be lame at the walk, IS lame at the trot, and when at rest points the foot.)For example, what would you do with a young, well broke grade gelding who is mildly lame (even with special shoes that cost $150 & costly injections), but who, if given a shot of banamine, can go on easy trail rides or give lessons to children? Would you give him the shot of banamine, or put him down, or what? (eta- his condition is permanant & can not be cured, only managed, and has been diagnosed with many images of the area).
Edited by Blaundee 2013-12-17 9:47 AM
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My Heelers are Heroes
Posts: 4685
| No, I would not ride him. Not sure what I would do with him though.  |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Here is another example- I have a 2005 mare who is excellent for riding, but went lame almost 2 years ago. I spent a bunch of money on repeated vet visits & xrays, and she is still lame. Basically it came to I could either blindly throw treatments at it and hope it was the right thing& fixed it, or just quit the bleed from my pocketbook. She points her foot when standing, doesn't usually limp visibly at a walk, slightly limps visibly at a trot, and definitely limps under saddle at a trot, slightly at a walk under saddle. Is it unethical to give her some bute/banamine and take her on a 30 min-1hr trail ride?
Fo those who would say "turn her into a broodie"- what is the difference between carrying a rider for 1-2 hours, a few times a week, vs carrying a foal 24/7 for 11 months?
ETA- this mare will happily come galloping up from the field, and goes through all gaits in the pasture, but IS lame. The handful of times I've ridden her in the past 2 years, she has not at all been grumpy or hesitant to move or change gaits, she is extremely stoic, but she has a clear limp when ridden.
Edited by Blaundee 2013-12-16 7:37 PM
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Or, what about a horse who has to have injections in his joints in order to run barrels? Is that in your opinion ethical? |
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Member
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Location: Texas | Just curious. What is the diagnosis? I have one in the pasture right now fits that description. Thought he might just need rest. Now not so sure. |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Banjo Fuel - 2013-12-16 6:31 PM Just curious. What is the diagnosis? I have one in the pasture right now fits that description. Thought he might just need rest. Now not so sure.
On my mare? We honestly don't know. The next diagnostic step was to do an MRI or something similar, and I honestly am not willing to pay that kind of money for a trail horse (though I love her dearly). It is FOR SURE in the foot, inside the hoof. |
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Member
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Location: Texas | That's what I'm afraid of. Gonna go ahead and have him checked out after Christmas if he is still lame. Thanks. |
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 Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| Since you're not a mind reader, does the horse act in pain? I have seen many horses that gimp that don't seem to act in pain. I don't know how to explain that except just spending time with an animal long enough and you'll be able to tell.
There are so many issues that begs the question of what is ethical or not, I don't particularly think it's ethical to let one fade away in a stall...only run barrels and nothing else... etc etc...
My diluted point is this; only you know your horse. The advice your going to get on here is second hand since we are not with you. Do the best you can, and remember for your horse, she could be beaten, starved or whatever and the line of what is right and wrong is often pretty darn blurry.
Edited by RidenFly 2013-12-16 7:45 PM
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| I can tell you I have days when I am "lame" and there is no way I would want to do more exercise/walking than necessary.. |
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  Ms. Marine
Posts: 4641
Location: Texas | I won't ride a lame one. |
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 Saint Stacey
| Lame is open to interruptation and how good of an eye you have.
I've seen plenty of horses that look dead lame to me, but the owners seem to not have a clue.
I have a horse turned out that is less lame than a lot I see, but for me riding him too much would be abuse. Others don't have a problem.
It's up to you as the owner to figure out what is right or wrong in your mind and how much you can live with if it comes to feeling guilty. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I want a diagnosis on my horses before I decide their future.
I inject as a maintaince if there is indication to do so.
I have a great vet and treat injuries with the most current, practical treatment based on horses injury prognosis and cost.
Not all lameness are forever, abscesses resolve, arthritis is progressive but can be prolonged
Personally I will not knowling ride a sore horse with an undiagnosed lameness.
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | RidenFly - 2013-12-16 6:44 PM Since you're not a mind reader, does the horse act in pain? I have seen many horses that gimp that don't seem to act in pain. I don't know how to explain that except just spending time with an animal long enough and you'll be able to tell.
There are so many issues that begs the question of what is ethical or not, I don't particularly think it's ethical to let one fade away in a stall...only run barrels and nothing else... etc etc...
My diluted point is this; only you know your horse. The advice your going to get on here is second hand since we are not with you. Do the best you can, and remember for your horse, she could be beaten, starved or whatever and the line of what is right and wrong is often pretty darn blurry.
I'm not quite sure of what you're trying to say LOL I'm assuming you are referring to my 2005 mare? She has never been beaten or starved, she was born & raised at my house. I'm not actually asking for advice on her, just using her as an example so that I can get people's opinions on lame horses. She is a broodie now, and will be my pet until she kicks the bucket- I'm just using her as an example. Same as the other horse, and the question about a barrel horse that has to have jooint injections- I'm just trying to get a feel for what other people think is ethical. I am on the fence- I have given horses bute or banamine so that they could be ridden, but I have also (obviously) just accepted the fact that a horse is lame and that's that. In a few years I might start riding my mare again on bute, who knows- or maybe she will come up sound one day... again, who knows. I myself don't see anything exactly "unethical" about it, as long as the horse is recieving vet care & not feeling the pain. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| I won't ride a lame horse. I have one that is 18 and retired because of arthritis and a chip in his front knee. It hurts to trim his feet if you pick up that knee to high, he is ok in the pasture ( runs, bucks, plays) but trot on concrete and he is about a 2. He has a huge heart and can still smoke a low 20 in the poles but I won't run him and turn down all offers on him. He was a great horse for us and has earned his retirement.
Edited by rodeomom3 2013-12-16 7:58 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1032
Location: IL | I would consider quality of life and talk to your vet. If the horse still seems to have good quality of life, is keeping weight, etc then I would not have the horse put down. I guess I feel that unless their quality of life is diminished, they are wasting away, or very obviously in pain all the time then perhaps there are other options. And I would talk to your vet and see what he/she says about the trail rides/children lessons. My mare was initially misdiagnosed with having such horrible suspensory issues that she would never be able to return to barrel racing and I'd be lucky to keep her as a pasture ornament, but the vet said that I could still take her on the occasional trail ride with a little bute/banamine. So although you say your vet isn't sure what the diagnosis is, maybe they can give you some insight?
I understand your concern though. We never want to cause them more pain.
ETA: I would also consider this: Is the banamine/bute relieving the discomfort or is it just masking the pain? If the horse is lame and in pain, I will not ride and mask the pain with bute/banamine. I always want to treat the problem at hand rather than mask the pain and do further damage. My lameness vet said my mare was an 8 on a scale of 1-10 being lame when I brought her in and the problem was NOT due to her suspensories but started in her foot. She is now completely sound do to corrective shoeing but due to her age I will be giving her the equine version of Previcox for arthritis maintenance when we go to 3 day shows. She is not lame and I won't be masking the pain, but simply relieving discomfort due achy joints. Same way I would take a tylenol when my knee gets sore on rainy days
Edited by TACKyPaints 2013-12-16 8:11 PM
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | CocoChex - 2013-12-16 6:48 PM I can tell you I have days when I am "lame" and there is no way I would want to do more exercise/walking than necessary..
I wish there were "days" for me... I swear my whole life is under a feeling of lame... my back, my joints, my head... and I still have to earn my keep, and still have to care for the animals lol sigh...... |
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Veteran
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| SKM - 2013-12-16 7:54 PM
Lame is open to interruptation and how good of an eye you have.
I've seen plenty of horses that look dead lame to me, but the owners seem to not have a clue.
I have a horse turned out that is less lame than a lot I see, but for me riding him too much would be abuse. Others don't have a problem.
It's up to you as the owner to figure out what is right or wrong in your mind and how much you can live with if it comes to feeling guilty.
Agree, I've seen plenty of "off" horses, but the owners don't realize it or are in denial
I won't ride a lame one |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Blaundee - 2013-12-16 7:31 PM Or, what about a horse who has to have injections in his joints in order to run barrels? Is that in your opinion ethical?
I consider it ethical if the injections are eliminating their pain and discomfort. Injections did not relieve the pain for my gelding who had the chip in his knee so I quit running him. If injections had worked I would still be running him. |
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Member
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Location: Texas | Chips in the knees seems to be a common diagnosis. What causes them? I'm guessing they would show up in an X-ray? |
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Blessed 
Location: Here | SKM - 2013-12-16 7:54 PM Lame is open to interruptation and how good of an eye you have.
I've seen plenty of horses that look dead lame to me, but the owners seem to not have a clue.
I have a horse turned out that is less lame than a lot I see, but for me riding him too much would be abuse. Others don't have a problem.
It's up to you as the owner to figure out what is right or wrong in your mind and how much you can live with if it comes to feeling guilty.
i agree with riden and skm. lame is open to many subjectives. |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I don't have issues with people who inject to make a horse comfortable or to keep them at a certain level of competition. Horses can need injections without being lame.
My issue with riding lame horses are the ones who are chronically lame, where the person isn't trying to rectify it, or rides them with a noticeable lameness and just chocks it up to being the way the horse is.
I think if you have a lame horse, you need to eliminate/manage the pain if you want to ride them or make them work. if the pain can't be eliminated or managed, they probably don't need to be riding or working. |
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 Ms. Manners
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Location: Oklahoma | In reference to whether it is ethical to give a horse painkillers in order to go on a light ride, I personally would not. Chronic pain is a sign that there is a problem and covering up the symptom does not take care of the underlying issue. When a horse is given pain meds to go for a ride, how are we to know what additional damage is being done due to the horse getting relief and feeling better. It may not be immediate damage either, but a more gradual worsening of the underlying problem that would not have occured had the animal not been ridden. Giving a horse pain meds and going for a trail ride is different from giving one at pasture some meds to ease it's discomfort.
As for running a barrel horse on injections, I'm not sure there is any extreme athlete out there who does not do some sort of preventive therapy. A horseman needs to be in tune with their horse and know when enough is enough. Most of our horses will keep going on three legs for us, and it's our job to do what is best for their health and welfare. |
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 Night Watchman
Posts: 5516
Location: Central Montana | There are all kinds of lame. I think it depends on how comfortable the horse can be and how much you plan on doing with it. If people want to point fingers then a lot would be pointing back at themselves when they are injecting, drugging - banamine, bute etc., ect. to keep their horse competiting. |
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 A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | It depends on why you bute/banamine. If it's something minor, like sore from a sole bruise or ouchy from a fresh trim, that's one thing. Buting bc the horse is in extreme pain, or running the horse while it's still on muscle relaxers or has an OBVIOUS injury is another. I don't agree with that.
Or running a horse that is obviously lame and CONTINUING to do so without caring at all about the horse's well being.
If your gut says it doesn't feel right, then don't do it. Personally, I'm paranoid of making anything worse, even a bruise or something minor. I wouldn't ride at all if a horse was off in any way.
Injections are a hot topic. Personally if they're more of a maintenance thing and only needed once or twice a year that's one thing. If you need injections every few months just to keep a horse sound in the pasture, that's another.
Edited by hlynn 2013-12-16 10:17 PM
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 Dr. Ruth
Posts: 9891
Location: Blissfully happy Giants fan!!! | I have had two scenarios and one was just like you. My mom had a mare that visibly limped on one of her front legs. We had her to the vet I don't know how many times but never could anyone figure out what was wrong with her. And she would come running and ran in the pasture, never went off feed, and was healthy every other way.
We did ride her but never for more than 15 minutes and it was very infrequent-mostly when we had people come over that needed to be babysat. And she never was worse limp wise before, during, or after. It bothered my mom so much that she only could take her limping for about a year or so and then she put her down. She just felt she was in pain even though we couldn't prove it except for the limp.
Grasshopper is my other story. He is a cripple. He does not move 100% sound. Does he limp? No but he doesn't stride out like a normal horse. He doesn't have arthritis (yet) but I am sure it is coming. The vet cleared him to be ridden. I am never getting on him again but I have let a 10 year old get on him at the playday. That dam! horse tried to run all of the patterns and that poor kid had to hold him back the entire time!!!
I will say this about Hops. When he had his accident Dr. Tanner asked what I wanted. I told him I wanted him to live but if he couldn't do that pain free then we needed to put him down. Dr. Tanner whole heartedly believes he lives almost 100% pain free. But when the day comes that that statement is not true, I will not let him suffer. I am ok with that decision and quite frankly, I have already had a full year of having him back with me which is more than I thought I would. |
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 Expert
Posts: 5293
| I had a horse with navicular and he had his coffin joint and Bursa Injected to stay sound and compete. THat lasted about 2 years. He still loved to compete. I finished the last 3 races of 2012 on him and had to resort to 10cc Ketophen and bute to run him sound. I was first in the standings then I promised him after the last race that when he was done, saddle off, it would never go back on, even for trail riding, kids etc. I lived up to my word. He lived on daily previcox for another year and then it started to not work so I had him put down. I have SEEN people run grade 4 ( ALmost packing a leg) horses at barrel races and they have their vet block out the foot 15 minutes before they run. THats rediculous. |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | I think it depends on the problem and the riding
there is a big difference between giving an arthritic horse some bute to walk some flat trails for a day and blocking a three-legged one to go run a pattern |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | I don't believe the answer will ever be black and white. There is no 100% wrong or right because every horse and owner is an individual and each situation is unique. It is a judgement call hence there can be 9999999999999999999 gazillion answers. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 733
| Are these horses getting regular trimming and/or shoeing? If a horse is to the point that they are pointing their toe I do not like to ride them, even with drugs. Nothing makes me more sick than when I walk by a trailer and see a horse pointing its toe while tied up, then later you see ppl running it and it is clearly lame. BUT if you have lame horse and you want to ride it please give it pain killers which it sounds like you are doing. My good horse required previcox and coffin joint injections to run, she was not toe pointing lame and most people probably wouldn't even notice she was off. Since I have done Tildren though I only have to give Previcox if I am going to be hauling for along time, haven't had to do any injections. If she needs something else injected I will do it. She also gets her front feet reset every 3-4 weeks. When you trot him does he bob his head pretty bad? Is he worse on soft or hard ground? IDK that is a tough one with the gelding, if you are breeding horses (mentioned the mare is now a broodmare) I would probably get rid of him and focus on one of your colts. Personally I would be careful breeding a mare with soundness problems, some of it can be hereditary.
Edited by Rope-N-Run 2013-12-17 9:21 AM
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 Ditch the Stirrups
Posts: 5369
Location: Sorrow Not! Defending against workplace bullies | Just to share my lameness story in the hope it might help. I have a wonderful gelding who has flat sensitive feet. He was off occasionally as a 4 yr old but pads fixed it. he could not stand even small pebbles in an arena. He lost a shoe and kicked a rock and fractured his coffin bone at 6 yrs old. the fracture was almost impossible to see on xray. At that time he was lame at a trot under saddle and sometimes at a walk in the pasture. He healed after stall rest for 3 months. If I would have been riding him he would never have healed. He then was lame AGAIN due to long toes. My vet suggested different shoeing and he is now perfectly sound and ready to race! I am glad I did not give up on him. I was afraid I would have to put him down if he did not heal. The stall rest was VERY difficult. I suspect he may have arthritis later on but I would not hesitate to ride an arthritic horse with bute since riding helps arthritis.
The answer to your question depends on the situation. Getting a diagnosis from a good lameness vet is most important. |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Rope-N-Run - 2013-12-17 8:17 AM
Are these horses getting regular trimming and/or shoeing? If a horse is to the point that they are pointing their toe I do not like to ride them, even with drugs. Nothing makes me more sick than when I walk by a trailer and see a horse pointing its toe while tied up, then later you see ppl running it and it is clearly lame. BUT if you have lame horse and you want to ride it please give it pain killers which it sounds like you are doing. My good horse required previcox and coffin joint injections to run, she was not toe pointing lame and most people probably wouldn't even notice she was off. Since I have done Tildren though I only have to give Previcox if I am going to be hauling for along time, haven't had to do any injections. If she needs something else injected I will do it. She also gets her front feet reset every 3-4 weeks. When you trot him does he bob his head pretty bad? Is he worse on soft or hard ground? IDK that is a tough one with the gelding, if you are breeding horses (mentioned the mare is now a broodmare) I would probably get rid of him and focus on one of your colts. Personally I would be careful breeding a mare with soundness problems, some of it can be hereditary.
I believe you are talking to me... :) Though I DO appreciate the intent behind the advice, I am not asking for advice, only using those horses as examples. I do not own the gelding, and am not putting any more money into getting my mare sound. ONLY using them as examples for discussion purposes, to help get the topic going & people's minds thinking of different scenerios. :) |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | My question is "In your opinion, is it ETHICAL?" :) |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Here's another example- a registered, "well bred", very well broke mare who is so crooked legged she hits her legs together & makes them bleed when being ridden (while in the pasture, she walks slow & doesn't hit herself much). She has a great temperament, & is loving life. (IMO, it is ethical to ride her ONLY if she is booted all around. IMO it is unethical to ride her without boots, or to breed her. Her owner decided to breed her. Seriously. To a crooked legged, unbroke stallion. Sigh.)
Edited by Blaundee 2013-12-17 10:19 AM
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Yet another example- a grade, middle aged gelding, with laminitis, navicular, & other issues in both of his front feet. (He was doped when the owner bought him- another reason to get vet checks before you buy). He has had multiple visits to the vet, xrays, treatments, shoes/barefoot/you name it. Vet & owner decided for him to go ahead & be ridden (in mountain trails)... he has easyboots, pads inside the easyboots, whatever treatment/shoes/etc that is being tried at the time, and a dose of bute or banamine. (IMO, it is not unethical to ride him.)
Edited by Blaundee 2013-12-17 10:25 AM
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Ditch the Stirrups
Posts: 5369
Location: Sorrow Not! Defending against workplace bullies | IMO it is unethical if riding causes further damage. To know that you have to know what is wrong with the horse. And IMO it is unethical to breed a horse with lameness problems. ! |
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Regular
Posts: 87
| Sorry, don't want to steal your thread, but I haven't seen a whole lot of answers about what do you do with a mildly lame horse? I have one like that (he has arthritis in his fetlock and hocks) I feel guilty leaving them out in the pasture when he loves to work, but it's too hard on him to be my tough competitive barrel or pole horse. So what do you do with them??? |
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 Elite Veteran
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Location: The Great West | jaydenw - 2013-12-17 8:10 PM Sorry, don't want to steal your thread, but I haven't seen a whole lot of answers about what do you do with a mildly lame horse? I have one like that (he has arthritis in his fetlock and hocks) I feel guilty leaving them out in the pasture when he loves to work, but it's too hard on him to be my tough competitive barrel or pole horse. So what do you do with them???
My sons (6) horse is mildly lame. You don't notice it when he's in the pasture or in a soft arena, but if he takes him on a long trail ride on rough rocky ground or trail cows down a gravel road he needs a couple grams of brute. If my husband or I where to ride him he would be uncomfortable. Lucky for him he's a kid safe/mother approved or he'd probably be put down. |
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Elite Veteran
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| Blaundee - 2013-12-18 7:42 AM
Rope-N-Run - 2013-12-17 8:17 AM
Are these horses getting regular trimming and/or shoeing? If a horse is to the point that they are pointing their toe I do not like to ride them, even with drugs. Nothing makes me more sick than when I walk by a trailer and see a horse pointing its toe while tied up, then later you see ppl running it and it is clearly lame. BUT if you have lame horse and you want to ride it please give it pain killers which it sounds like you are doing. My good horse required previcox and coffin joint injections to run, she was not toe pointing lame and most people probably wouldn't even notice she was off. Since I have done Tildren though I only have to give Previcox if I am going to be hauling for along time, haven't had to do any injections. If she needs something else injected I will do it. She also gets her front feet reset every 3-4 weeks. When you trot him does he bob his head pretty bad? Is he worse on soft or hard ground? IDK that is a tough one with the gelding, if you are breeding horses (mentioned the mare is now a broodmare) I would probably get rid of him and focus on one of your colts. Personally I would be careful breeding a mare with soundness problems, some of it can be hereditary.
I believe you are talking to me... : ) Though I DO appreciate the intent behind the advice, I am not asking for advice, only using those horses as examples. I do not own the gelding, and am not putting any more money into getting my mare sound. ONLY using them as examples for discussion purposes, to help get the topic going & people's minds thinking of different scenerios. : )
yes it is a hard question to answer with out knowing the back story, is it unethical to ride a lame horse that could be sound with a few preventive measures or different shoeing, yes IMO it is because it could be easily fixed. It is unethical to trail ride a horse that is COMFORTABLE in the pasture not being ridden, and you give him bute or banamine when you do ride him, and there is nothing you can do to fix the problem, no IMO that is not unethical personally I would prob give previcox because I think it is easier on them but that is a personal preference. However, again IMO, when a horse is lame enough that they are pointing they are not comfortable that is why he is pointing his foot because it hurts to stand on it normally. Hope that answers the question you are asking, its just kind of complicated there a lot of variable and alot of the time subtle lameness can be fixed with proper shoeing or trimming and those horses require being reset more often they can not get long. |
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 Elite Veteran
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Location: Probably On the Road to the Next Barrel Race! | Blaundee - 2013-12-16 7:31 PM
Or, what about a horse who has to have injections in his joints in order to run barrels? Is that in your opinion ethical?
Are you serious?? I can't believe any barrel racer of any serious nature would even ASK that question! When joints are injected, pain is relieved. I don't have any problem running a pain-free horse. God put horses here for us to use and enjoy. Are you with PETA or something? There is nothing unethical about riding a horse that's been injected. The AQHA doesn't have an issue with it, why on earth do YOU? |
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 Expert
Posts: 1261
| I think it depends on why the horse is lame.
Some things that cause lameness are helped by movement or even "trauma" to the area. Some things it would only serve to cause the horse pain and or slow healing. I would always consult a vet or maybe even multiple vets and do what they recommended. |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: IL | CrossCreek - 2013-12-17 10:10 PM Blaundee - 2013-12-16 7:31 PM Or, what about a horse who has to have injections in his joints in order to run barrels? Is that in your opinion ethical? Are you serious?? I can't believe any barrel racer of any serious nature would even ASK that question! When joints are injected, pain is relieved. I don't have any problem running a pain-free horse. God put horses here for us to use and enjoy. Are you with PETA or something? There is nothing unethical about riding a horse that's been injected. The AQHA doesn't have an issue with it, why on earth do YOU?
ETA: I am a serious barrel racer who did question injections until I was properly educated on them. I had never had a horse that needed injections therefore I never knew much about them. Not everybody understands how injections work or when they should be used. After educating myself on injections by doing my own research, as well as speaking to my vet to make sure I had a proper understanding, I decided that I am PRO injections. However, I do believe they should be used wisely, for good reason, and only if it will BENEFIT the horse and not mask a more serious issue.
Edited by TACKyPaints 2013-12-17 10:30 PM
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | SC Wrangler - 2013-12-17 9:16 AM I don't believe the answer will ever be black and white. There is no 100% wrong or right because every horse and owner is an individual and each situation is unique. It is a judgement call hence there can be 9999999999999999999 gazillion answers.
I agree and will add to the gazillion opinions. I think it is likely ok to me. But it is your call. I know a few on here ride lame horses because they refuse to use injections or meds- which I find more so morally wrong-jmo.
Lots of tangents and mine is a perfect time to use your mare as an example of why MRI's are so great although not affordable for most. That is why I have insurance. And it has saved me from injecting secondary issues, saved me from scrapping a good horse and saved me from putting more time and money or years of ownership in to a horse that would NEVER be sound. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| jaydenw - 2013-12-17 9:10 PM
Sorry, don't want to steal your thread, but I haven't seen a whole lot of answers about what do you do with a mildly lame horse? I have one like that (he has arthritis in his fetlock and hocks) I feel guilty leaving them out in the pasture when he loves to work, but it's too hard on him to be my tough competitive barrel or pole horse. So what do you do with them???
I retired mine, he lives in the pasture, the first year was hard on him, after that he loves his life. He has been retired for 7 years |
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | I have 2....injections helped the one for a bit but she came back lame with clean x-rays..and my other mare has differnt issues......but they are both retired and maybe im just lucky that I haven enough space to do this........and they have both carried one baby each and I have full intentions of getting the one mare ai'd one more time......and I used to be non injections until a good friend smacked me upside the head..lolM |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | There are very few horses out there that are perfectly sound. In fact, most of them are a tick off that only few can really see. My horse never fully recovered from an injury he did in his stall. We have no idea what was actually hurt on him but after 2 years he is almost back to normal but still is ever so slightly off going 1 direction. Most people can't tell but I can. But I still ride him and work him. If your horse likes to work and WANTS to and isn't showing pain I would continue on taking him on trail rides even if he is on bute/banamine. May just be how he is now. Plus spending time with you I'm sure makes him happy and will make him feel better. I say enjoy him :) |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | I think it depends on each individual lameness.
For example: My gelding has a catching stifle issue. Part of the treatment is EXERCISE. (May also do an injection in the spring.) Yes, he's technically lame. But there is a way to make him comfortable. So the "strict rule" of "never ride a lame horse" doesn't exactly apply.
He also has a slight lameness on his front end. But it is resolved 100% with shoes. So again, there is a way to make him comfortable.
So it kinda depends on your defintion of lameness.
My mom's horse has chronic laminitis. She has good spells and bad spells. When she's feeling good, my mom will take her out for short, easy rides. She no longer barrel races on her because she can't handle it. During the bad spells, she doesn't get ridden. Is it wrong to ride her when she is feeling good? Some may say "yes" but ... she loves getting out of the pasture once in a while and her facial expressions and body language shows that she enjoys the outings.
My old gelding got arthritis in his hock and stifle. Per the instructions from the vet, I gave him bute daily just to simply keep him comfortable. He could clearly not be ridden. And I eventually put him down because I could tell he was getting grumpy (not like him) just being a pasture pet, from his arthritis pain, despite being on bute.
So I think it is a very individual thing that only YOU as the horse owner can decide if it is right to exercise your "lame" horse, although that statement should exclude those that are either ignorant or in denial of their horse's problems.
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 Extreme Veteran
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Location: La Vernia, TX | Every horse is an individual, and each situation is different. I require pretty regular medication and 'upkeep' to deal with the severe arthritis in my lower back. Now, there are certain things I should not do, but just because I have arthritis pain, does that mean I should stop working?
A horse that is acutely lame should not be ridden.
A horse that has a muscle injury should be allowed time to heal.
A horse that has a broken or chipped bone should have it fixed.
A horse that has a tendon injury should be treated and laid up until it heals.
A horse that has a chronic joint injury should be evaluated for severity, and a plan of action created. I do not believe in simply masking the pain and allowing a horse to run itself into the ground, but it's also unethical to work a horse that is in pain. An owner and veterinarian should work together to find a course of treatment that will improve the horse's condition. If no improvement can be expected, then retire or retrain to a less demanding career. |
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 On the Countdown
Posts: 2934
Location: Texas | SG. - 2013-12-16 8:20 PM SKM - 2013-12-16 7:54 PM Lame is open to interruptation and how good of an eye you have.
I've seen plenty of horses that look dead lame to me, but the owners seem to not have a clue.
I have a horse turned out that is less lame than a lot I see, but for me riding him too much would be abuse. Others don't have a problem.
It's up to you as the owner to figure out what is right or wrong in your mind and how much you can live with if it comes to feeling guilty. i agree with riden and skm. lame is open to many subjectives.
Very true.
I had a 2 year old. Started her on ground work. First few days she was fine, work her to many she would be crippled, front leg swollen. Give her a few weeks off swelling would go down. Spent bunches of $$$ on her to find what was bothering her and try to fix it. The results I decided was not to spend more money on her. I sold her. The people that bought her decided to breed her as a 2 year old (not the greatest idea I didn't think). They recently emailed me asking me about riding her, and that she is sound doesn't limp or anything... Do I think she is sound? NOPE not after what I have learned. But if they ride her that is their decision.
If they seem lame, feel lame or anythign I will not ride them. I will get off of them and go turn them back out until I can get them to the vet. They are a investment that I have to protect to the best of my capabilities, sometimes hard to control. |
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| For myself, even if the horse is medicated, I have a really hard time riding if I feel they are not 100%, even if they are just a bit ouchy from a recent trim/shoe or something more severe. I would put kids on older, arthritic horses, but not for hard riding. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| MO gal - 2013-12-18 3:14 PM
For myself, even if the horse is medicated, I have a really hard time riding if I feel they are not 100%, even if they are just a bit ouchy from a recent trim/shoe or something more severe. I would put kids on older, arthritic horses, but not for hard riding.
Have to ask why is it okay for a child who doesn't know when to stop, will continue to ride a horse all day, will continue to run the horse into the ground, rip on the face, kick the horse in the ribs the entire time, to ride a broken down old arthritic horse that is in constant pain? |
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 Expert
Posts: 2243
Location: Florida/Okla/Texas | cheryl makofka - 2013-12-18 4:43 PM MO gal - 2013-12-18 3:14 PM For myself, even if the horse is medicated, I have a really hard time riding if I feel they are not 100%, even if they are just a bit ouchy from a recent trim/shoe or something more severe. I would put kids on older, arthritic horses, but not for hard riding. Have to ask why is it okay for a child who doesn't know when to stop, will continue to ride a horse all day, will continue to run the horse into the ground, rip on the face, kick the horse in the ribs the entire time, to ride a broken down old arthritic horse that is in constant pain?
People who put a child on an artiritic horse and let them abuse them are uncaring, ignorant people in my book.....just no justification for that at all. No justification for anyone to use a horse like it's a bicycle....young, old, sound or unsound.....JMHO
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 The Rose of Rodeo...
Posts: 2560
Location: Where we still run to look when the siren goes by. | cheryl makofka - 2013-12-18 3:43 PM MO gal - 2013-12-18 3:14 PM For myself, even if the horse is medicated, I have a really hard time riding if I feel they are not 100%, even if they are just a bit ouchy from a recent trim/shoe or something more severe. I would put kids on older, arthritic horses, but not for hard riding. Have to ask why is it okay for a child who doesn't know when to stop, will continue to ride a horse all day, will continue to run the horse into the ground, rip on the face, kick the horse in the ribs the entire time, to ride a broken down old arthritic horse that is in constant pain?
Preeetty sure that's not what she ment... |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | I honestly don't know what to think. My mare sounds like your mare, She's had x-rays, we blocked her out up to the stifle, massage/chiro, lots of time off, and injections. She has some very mild arthritis in her stifle (which is why I had her injected) but that's not what's causing her to be lame. It's so high up we can't do x-rays and I can't afford to take her to another state and have an MRI or whatever done. We're hopeful she'll heal on her own in time. She's been off completely since July and looks pretty much the same. She does not act in pain and enjoys a good canter when I let her out of her pen. Even under saddle at first she didn't act painful, just felt like she had a flat tire. Then she started not wanting to go forward and would take a step, kind of hobble/kick with her sore leg, then stop. The cycle would go on with every step and each time she acted more distressed, going so far as to turn her head around and stare at me. If she is a lost cause, I'm going to turn her out in the pasture. She's not dead lame and can get around fine on her own.
Our other horse managed to hurt himself too. No idea how. Again, the vet couldn't find anything wrong from x-rays but it seems to be something in the lower leg. It is so mild he doesn't act in pain at all and rode around fine (at first we thought his feet were just tender from mistakenly having his shoes pulled, so my sis took him to a race and he did completely fine) but we would feel too guilty continuing to ride him.
They better heal up cause I have $10,000 of lame horses sitting in my barn. :( |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | cheryl makofka - 2013-12-18 4:43 PM MO gal - 2013-12-18 3:14 PM For myself, even if the horse is medicated, I have a really hard time riding if I feel they are not 100%, even if they are just a bit ouchy from a recent trim/shoe or something more severe. I would put kids on older, arthritic horses, but not for hard riding. Have to ask why is it okay for a child who doesn't know when to stop, will continue to ride a horse all day, will continue to run the horse into the ground, rip on the face, kick the horse in the ribs the entire time, to ride a broken down old arthritic horse that is in constant pain?
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I understood it as a young kid that maybe can walk around the arena by themselves or gets led around. |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | I have seen parents use old arthritic horses for their kids in a very good way. We have some local playdays and they take good care of them. the little kids walk/trot the pattern to get a ribbon. then they get loved on. they do not run the horse in the ground. The parents are aware of the horses limitations. The horses do not show any signs of distress and enjoy the attention |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | TurnLane - 2013-12-18 8:50 AM SC Wrangler - 2013-12-17 9:16 AM I don't believe the answer will ever be black and white. There is no 100% wrong or right because every horse and owner is an individual and each situation is unique. It is a judgement call hence there can be 9999999999999999999 gazillion answers. I agree and will add to the gazillion opinions. I think it is likely ok to me. But it is your call. I know a few on here ride lame horses because they refuse to use injections or meds- which I find more so morally wrong-jmo.
Lots of tangents and mine is a perfect time to use your mare as an example of why MRI's are so great although not affordable for most. That is why I have insurance. And it has saved me from injecting secondary issues, saved me from scrapping a good horse and saved me from putting more time and money or years of ownership in to a horse that would NEVER be sound.
An MRI is worth more monetarily than my mare is. NO WAY any insurance co would pay for it. |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | TACKyPaints - 2013-12-17 9:26 PM CrossCreek - 2013-12-17 10:10 PM Blaundee - 2013-12-16 7:31 PM Or, what about a horse who has to have injections in his joints in order to run barrels? Is that in your opinion ethical? Are you serious?? I can't believe any barrel racer of any serious nature would even ASK that question! When joints are injected, pain is relieved. I don't have any problem running a pain-free horse. God put horses here for us to use and enjoy. Are you with PETA or something? There is nothing unethical about riding a horse that's been injected. The AQHA doesn't have an issue with it, why on earth do YOU?
ETA: I am a serious barrel racer who did question injections until I was properly educated on them. I had never had a horse that needed injections therefore I never knew much about them. Not everybody understands how injections work or when they should be used. After educating myself on injections by doing my own research, as well as speaking to my vet to make sure I had a proper understanding, I decided that I am PRO injections. However, I do believe they should be used wisely, for good reason, and only if it will BENEFIT the horse and not mask a more serious issue.
Nope, I don't personally have an issue with it, and if CrossCreek had bothered to pay attention, I HAVE used injections on a horse! DUH! I said it in the FIRST post RFLOL!!! |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | jaydenw - 2013-12-17 8:10 PM Sorry, don't want to steal your thread, but I haven't seen a whole lot of answers about what do you do with a mildly lame horse? I have one like that (he has arthritis in his fetlock and hocks) I feel guilty leaving them out in the pasture when he loves to work, but it's too hard on him to be my tough competitive barrel or pole horse. So what do you do with them???
Yes, I'd like to know what people would do with a lame horse when they do not feel that riding is ethical- in particular, I'm curious what they'd do with a gelding. (AGAIN, I am NOT asking for advice, I'm just wanting people to throw out their ideas, opinions, examples, etc. I only own one lame horse and am NOT going to be putting more money into it. Period.)
Myself, I won't sell/give away a lame horse without telling the prospective owner everything I know about the lameness. I take my horses to the vet for any and all lamenesses, I am "over-reactive" when it comes to lameness and colic- first little sign warrants a vet trip. I have NO ISSUE riding a horse who can be made as comfortable as reasonably possible and okayed by a vet to be ridden (and this to me would OBVIOUSLY mean that it has been thoroughly examined by a vet- that's just a no-brainer IMO, ALL lame horses should go to the vet PERIOD).
In the case of my mare, since we do NOT know what the actual issue is, I will not ride her because we CAN NOT treat the issue, and I'll keep her because she is a pet that I've had since she was born- if she were not so special to me, I would probably just put her down, because she is so slightly lame that if I were to give her away, she WOULD end up being ridden. If she remains lame to the same degree in a few years, I might use her to lead little bitty kids, and maybe to let kids under 5 ride her by themselves a little bit- she is extremely calm & level headed, and loves children, it would hardly be any more work than being out to pasture. (BTW- we & the vet think that it was probably caused by her idiotic pawing, her one and only vice. She is a horrid pawer, and only pawed with that foot. We suspect her rotten pawing caused something happened inside that we can not see on the xrays. Yet another reason NOT to let your horses paw.) However, in the case of the 2 different geldings I listed, I WOULD ride them, because every reasonable measure had been taken to make them comfortable & useful, and the only other option was to put them down because they were too expensive to feed and NOT ride them- that is also what the vets who treated them recommended, too. However, if they had been horses I was in love with, I might feel about it like I do about my mare, & end up keeping a gelding until he died because I loved him- who knows. So far I don't keep geldings anyway, for some reason I always sell them- I love my mares :) lol
As for the second mare (crooked legged) that I used as an example, I would boot her up & ride her, and NEVER breed her-perhaps even spay her to make sure she could never reproduce if she were to be sold/given away.
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Expert
Posts: 1561
Location: North of where I want to be | I have not read the entire thread. I am simply stating my opinion on riding a alame horse. The answer to this is not just black or white. It depends on the lameness issue(ie the cause) the degree, and the nature of the riding.
I bought a mare that when I bought her had a recently and incorrectly treated ruptured tendon. It was bad enough that at first her foot literally just slapped the ground with each step. I got her home & had my vet take a good look at her. She said she would never compete, but with the proper therapies and time she would be suited for lessons & trails.....maybe.
A full year later, miles of hand walking & eventual ponying, accuscope therapy, hosing, poultices and exercising slowly and she was tearing it up in the field. I had the vet re- evaluate her and he said...ride her. I asked about the ethics of it and she put it this way "Professional atheletes do not stop playing, they change the way they play. Yes some retire and quit altogether....they get fat, and it takes its toll. Adjust the way you use the animal and you will maintain a healthy athelete of a different level. Listen to her, she will let you know what she can & cannot handle" We ride my mare. She gives lessons to beginners, does some moderate trail riding and depending on the footing the occassional team penning. She tells us what she can handle & she is a much happier horse when she has a purpose & not just standing in the field. |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | I don't think there is an answer that will satisify everyone. Years ago, we had a local girl who's 6 year old son ran a horse that was mildly lame. He was 26, and loved that little boy to death. He would hollar and stomp if they left with out him, he would follow the little boy in the pasture. He had an obivious limp when he ran, but personally, it was not a problem for me. They ran him 2 years, then he moved up to something faster, but the old man used to still trail ride and ride in the pasture.
They gave him bute or banamine, Or both for all I know...but in my opinion the horse was happy, the kid was happy, the spectators were happy.
Did not read the whole thread, so maybe this is not what your talking about, but too many different cases to know for sure.
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | KRJ1791 - 2013-12-27 6:17 PM I have not read the entire thread. I am simply stating my opinion on riding a alame horse. The answer to this is not just black or white. It depends on the lameness issue(ie the cause) the degree, and the nature of the riding.
I bought a mare that when I bought her had a recently and incorrectly treated ruptured tendon. It was bad enough that at first her foot literally just slapped the ground with each step. I got her home & had my vet take a good look at her. She said she would never compete, but with the proper therapies and time she would be suited for lessons & trails.....maybe.
A full year later, miles of hand walking & eventual ponying, accuscope therapy, hosing, poultices and exercising slowly and she was tearing it up in the field. I had the vet re- evaluate her and he said...ride her. I asked about the ethics of it and she put it this way "Professional atheletes do not stop playing, they change the way they play. Yes some retire and quit altogether....they get fat, and it takes its toll. Adjust the way you use the animal and you will maintain a healthy athelete of a different level. Listen to her, she will let you know what she can & cannot handle" We ride my mare. She gives lessons to beginners, does some moderate trail riding and depending on the footing the occassional team penning. She tells us what she can handle & she is a much happier horse when she has a purpose & not just standing in the field.
That's how I view it, too. |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Swannranch - 2013-12-27 8:10 PM I don't think there is an answer that will satisify everyone. Years ago, we had a local girl who's 6 year old son ran a horse that was mildly lame. He was 26, and loved that little boy to death. He would hollar and stomp if they left with out him, he would follow the little boy in the pasture. He had an obivious limp when he ran, but personally, it was not a problem for me. They ran him 2 years, then he moved up to something faster, but the old man used to still trail ride and ride in the pasture.
They gave him bute or banamine, Or both for all I know...but in my opinion the horse was happy, the kid was happy, the spectators were happy.
Did not read the whole thread, so maybe this is not what your talking about, but too many different cases to know for sure.
I've seen cases like that, too, and have no issue with it when they KNOW the horse is lame & make the decision to give it meds & care... however, I've also seen little kids on lame horses who whip & spur the horse and the parents yanking on it (I suppose they think being mean to it will make it faster??? dummies) and they don't give the horse any sort of consideraton or medication or anything, and are oblivious to the fact that it's lame... IMO that is unethical. I've also seen full grown women beat a horse about the head as they yanked it by the reins to back into the arena, then turn and run the pattern once they got into the arena... and the horse was OBVIOUSLY limping & flinging it's head while trotting around in the warm up area.... that to me is unethical. If the same horse had been mildly limping, and the woman was gently working the horse to warm up, and the horse willingly entered the arena, I would not personally find it unethical- but the rough treatment to get it into the arena made me think that she was NOT taking the horse into consideration, and was either oblivious to the lameness or just didn't care. |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Here's another case- a girl around 10 yo rode a horse who was ancient and had an obvious limp at a walk. She would just lead or slowly walk him around before the race, then enter the race, then take good care of him at the trailer. I never saw the horse refuse the gate, or even act like he didn't want to do what the little girl wanted to do, I never saw her mistreat him at all, everything that I saw told me that they cared about each other and that the old horse had a good home for the end of his life- I did not find this unethical. The next year, the little girl was riding a different horse, and the old horse had died- after teaching the little girl to ride & to love a horse. I don't know if they gave the horse any medications, but to me that particular case was not at all unethical. |
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Is it ethical to ride a lame horse?