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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 725
  
Location: Hogwarts | I just want to preface this with, this is not meant to be antagonistic post but instead an opening for casual debate and trying to understand. What makes you believe in the Bible and everything in it when so much has been found that proves a lot of it to be false? What keeps you believing there is a God? Do you take the Bible literally (like Noah's Flood, Genesis, etc) or a loose interpretation? I just got done taking a class that we discussed the evolution of religion and science and it makes me wonder. I was going to ask some of my religious friends but its finals week, everyone is studying and stressed, so not exactly the best time to have deep in depth conversations about faith and religion haha. Again, not meant to be antagonistic so please no fighting just pleasant conversation/debate. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
 
Location: Midwest | interesting topic | |
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 The Comeback Kid
Posts: 1564
Location: lost in missouri | It is a choice you make to believe or not. I think i choose to believe for a couple of reasons I will give the less serious of them. One being it keeps me in line and out of trouble cause if there is a he!! i dont want to find out the bad way like when i show up on its steps. I dont bible thump and i dont preach to people. I take a loose interpretation
Edited by redracinmo 2013-12-17 10:29 AM
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| For me it is very personal, not a casual conversation. I think a person must find out for themselves and once they know there is no denying it. There may be some loosely intrepreted "scientific" clues that may try to disprove religion, but there are also significant facts that prove religion and God are real. Do you really want to know if it is real or or do you want to know that it isn't? | |
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 Purveyor of unconventional wisdom
Posts: 17112
Location: CA | Many years ago I was on here in a debate with a few folks about the reality of reincarnation, pyschics and such. For every thing I brought up De had an answer. For every question I asked, she had an answer, for every fear i brought up, she had an answer. She got all those answers from the Bible. I am not a big bible reader, I will admit that first off, but I am strong in Jesus. I could tell you stories you would not beleive, but if not for my Lord and Savior, I wouldn't be here right now. My coming out party was quite ummmm exciting. lol Never did she push me, or tell me I was wrong, she would just have the answer. She takes no credit, and gives the glory to the Holy Spirit and God, but I think because of her heart and love of Christ she took me on, and saved my ass. :)
To understand the bible you have to be a history scholar and speak either latin or greek. Our versions aren't quite translated right and the more modern translations aren't even close. Do I believe in the miracles.... :) **** straight I do. I see them here once in a while.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 725
Location: Hogwarts | That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you. But then I'd start to think and I feel on the other hand there are people who really need that looming idea of a greater punishment to stay fairly well on the straight and narrow (not implying you do but the general population as a whole). I don't know. This topic interests me a lot. Religion fascinates me, which is weird because I don't believe in it haha. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | There are a lot of mistakes in the Bible, but that doesn't diminish my Faith. Humans are imperfect and so what else could you expect from a document that has been copied, edited, and interpreted so many times over the centuries? I know God exists with every cell in my body. Look around at our world--there is nothing random here. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 10:31 AM That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you. But then I'd start to think and I feel on the other hand there are people who really need that looming idea of a greater punishment to stay fairly well on the straight and narrow (not implying you do but the general population as a whole). I don't know. This topic interests me a lot. Religion fascinates me, which is weird because I don't believe in it haha.
From a science perspective, yes, I believe there would be "morals" or moral code. From an evolutionary standpoint, it is neccessary for human survival, and it is beneficial from a survival standpoint. I am an agnostic, for the record. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 307
Location: Florida | I guess that's what makes it faith and "believing," instead of knowing :)
I have a hard time believing this world WASN'T created, ya know- there's a saddle because there's a saddle maker, there's a house because there's a builder, etc. they didn't just "happen."
I have a lot of friends that believe the Big Bang theory but to my knowledge explosions cause chaos not order, we blow things up to destroy, not create... So I can't get with a theory that essentially claims "There was nothing, then it all blew up and became an organized everything." Lol
im not meaning to sound like I'm talking down either, I'm just saying, in my short years of experience I've never seen something created without a creator, and throughout life, learning and trying to get closer to God I've just become somehow more and more sure :)
My mom always says, yes we believe and we could be wrong and after we die we just die; BUT, what if we're right and nonbelievers are wrong and find themselves standing before God... Now that's a scary "what-if!" | |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| rach.k - 2013-12-17 10:41 AM I guess that's what makes it faith and "believing," instead of knowing :)
I have a hard time believing this world WASN'T created, ya know- there's a saddle because there's a saddle maker, there's a house because there's a builder, etc. they didn't just "happen."
I have a lot of friends that believe the Big Bang theory but to my knowledge explosions cause chaos not order, we blow things up to destroy, not create... So I can't get with a theory that essentially claims "There was nothing, then it all blew up and became an organized everything." Lol
im not meaning to sound like I'm talking down either, I'm just saying, in my short years of experience I've never seen something created without a creator, and throughout life, learning and trying to get closer to God I've just become somehow more and more sure :)
My mom always says, yes we believe and we could be wrong and after we die we just die; BUT, what if we're right and nonbelievers are wrong and find themselves standing before God... Now that's a scary "what-if!"
First of all I like your response. In regards to the highlighted portion...I do know! I also know that others can know as well. | |
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 Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | What makes me believe? Certainly not the theories and writings of men. Honestly, I have had God in my heart, always. I never questioned his existance because I have felt his presence since I was a small child. God and religion are two seperate things. Religion is man's way to God, and some try to make it seem very complicated. The bible is God's textbook on life, his gift of a manuscript designed to guide the people he created in having the life he created them to have. Its perfect. Every question that you could ever have about the foundation of life can be found in the Bible. You just have to look for it, and seek the answers.
Men have been trying to disprove the facts of the Bible for years, but still it endures. If not divinely inspired, how could it have stood the test of time all these years? If just a book written by men, why would it not been thrown out years ago as hogwash? If Jesus Christ were just a man, wouldn't he have been forgotten about long ago?
I have a difficult time understanding how some do not believe in God. Look at the wonders of his creation. How complex we are as human beings, the different animal and plant species - each designed with a specific purpose in the food chain. The oceans, the desert, the Grand Canyon, etc., etc., etc. I feel sorry for those who make it their life's work to try and disprove God's existance, when to embrace him and the teachings of his word (the bible) is what leads to a fulfilling and happy life.
And, I wondered reading your post, what exactly has been found that proves the bible to be false? | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Hollywood's Fan - 2013-12-17 10:57 AM
What makes me believe? Certainly not the theories and writings of men. Honestly, I have had God in my heart, always. I never questioned his existance because I have felt his presence since I was a small child. God and religion are two seperate things. Religion is man's way to God, and some try to make it seem very complicated. The bible is God's textbook on life, his gift of a manuscript designed to guide the people he created in having the life he created them to have. Its perfect. Every question that you could ever have about the foundation of life can be found in the Bible. You just have to look for it, and seek the answers.
Men have been trying to disprove the facts of the Bible for years, but still it endures. If not divinely inspired, how could it have stood the test of time all these years? If just a book written by men, why would it not been thrown out years ago as hogwash? If Jesus Christ were just a man, wouldn't he have been forgotten about long ago?
I have a difficult time understanding how some do not believe in God. Look at the wonders of his creation. How complex we are as human beings, the different animal and plant species - each designed with a specific purpose in the food chain. The oceans, the desert, the Grand Canyon, etc., etc., etc. I feel sorry for those who make it their life's work to try and disprove God's existance, when to embrace him and the teachings of his word (the bible) is what leads to a fulfilling and happy life.
And, I wondered reading your post, what exactly has been found that proves the bible to be false?
The book, "Misquoting Jesus", has a lot of good info about purposeful changes, and mistakes in our present version of the Bible. There is no question there are mistakes, and that's why you can't take a verse out of context and base a religion on it. However, I do think that taken overall, it's an excellent message in where we came from and how we should live. Just because I don't believe that it is infallible and in the original form of divine inspiration doesn't lessen my Faith one iota. | |
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 Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| There is a book, "The Case For Christ." written by someone in your shoes who set of to disprove Christ only to realize.... | |
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Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-18 10:07 AM Hollywood's Fan - 2013-12-17 10:57 AM What makes me believe? Certainly not the theories and writings of men. Honestly, I have had God in my heart, always. I never questioned his existance because I have felt his presence since I was a small child. God and religion are two seperate things. Religion is man's way to God, and some try to make it seem very complicated. The bible is God's textbook on life, his gift of a manuscript designed to guide the people he created in having the life he created them to have. Its perfect. Every question that you could ever have about the foundation of life can be found in the Bible. You just have to look for it, and seek the answers.
Men have been trying to disprove the facts of the Bible for years, but still it endures. If not divinely inspired, how could it have stood the test of time all these years? If just a book written by men, why would it not been thrown out years ago as hogwash? If Jesus Christ were just a man, wouldn't he have been forgotten about long ago?
I have a difficult time understanding how some do not believe in God. Look at the wonders of his creation. How complex we are as human beings, the different animal and plant species - each designed with a specific purpose in the food chain. The oceans, the desert, the Grand Canyon, etc., etc., etc. I feel sorry for those who make it their life's work to try and disprove God's existance, when to embrace him and the teachings of his word (the bible) is what leads to a fulfilling and happy life.
And, I wondered reading your post, what exactly has been found that proves the bible to be false? The book, "Misquoting Jesus", has a lot of good info about purposeful changes, and mistakes in our present version of the Bible. There is no question there are mistakes, and that's why you can't take a verse out of context and base a religion on it. However, I do think that taken overall, it's an excellent message in where we came from and how we should live. Just because I don't believe that it is infallible and in the original form of divine inspiration doesn't lessen my Faith one iota.
I don't believe there are mistakes in the bible. Again, I would like to hear specifics. I do believe that people pick and choose a verse here and there and take it out of context, and I don't pretend to understand it all. But God gives me understanding everytime I open the pages, and its funny how it is given at a time when I need it. I can read the same passage over and over and then one day, he opens my understanding to something I was struggling with. | |
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 Wide Darn Open
Posts: 2141
| First off let me say I don't believe because I'm afraid of punishment or hell. I didn't decide to be a Christian just in case there's a god. I believe because I had become aware of my need for a savior and sought out the promises He has made us in His Word. The bible says if we seek Him we will find Him. Those who don't find are those who aren't looking and don't want to find it. He will not force himself on anyone but says if we open the door He will come in.
Religion really has nothing to do with my faith. Religion can be based on anything. We don't get much in this world without going after it so when I read the bible I pray and ask for understanding and so many things have become clear that I didn't understand before. The bible is very true and real and what I have chosen to put my trust in. Faith isn't based on feelings just as love is not. We choose to love even when we don't "feel" that feeling towards someone all the time.
I think non belief is rooted in pride. We as humans sometimes think we have all the answers and control when oftentimes we can't even exercise self control. There is no doubt a power greater than us and our beings cannot be explained by science alone. We are spiritual beings and not just flesh and blood.
I think if you're looking to prove or disprove God you won't get the answers you're looking for. It's like trying to fix an illness with the wrong medicine. Faith is of the heart and not something someone is going to show you in a science lab. Our relationship with God is just like our relationship with others. It only grows stronger and you only grow closer by actively seeking and working toward that closeness and by spending time getting to know that person...seeking out who they are. When you know Him you'll see the manifestations in your life and He will become very real to you. I'm sorry I'm not that good with words but I'm glad you brought this discussion to the board it's the most important thing we can discuss!  | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1409
| Wanting to find ultimate, spiritual truth in religion will never happen.
Following Jesus is not a religion or denomination. Religion is man's inventions of different denominations, different rules, sects, different interpretations, man's different ways and ideas to know about God, and different ways to worship God. To know the truth all of this must be thrown out and search out Jesus only.
Truly knowing Jesus is a deep desire to know Him, His ways, His teachings, His truths. Knowing Him and not just about Him. If someone asks me the questions you have posted or even a well intentiond weekly church goer I point them to Jesus only not any "church" or denomination. Not saying there is not good teachers out there. I say if truth is what you are after then a diligent heart you must have. To truly want to know you have to be willing to lay down any pre conceived ideas or thoughts or any comparing of Jesus to what you might know about a "church" or other so called "christians"
Begin to ask God if He is real then please reveal this to your innermost being and be prepared to do this more than once and as long as need be. Begin to read the words in red in a Bible. A truly humble heart that truly wants to know will not be disappointed. So many people do this for a couple of weeks then say well nothing happened so God must not be real..... if you are not truly humble and ready to TRULY know then you will not know.
If all your wanting to know about is religion then you can GOOGLE away and find out just about anything. But truly knowing Jesus is a radical relationship with your Creator and a life changing moment in one's life.
There have been some other great posts!
Edited by TyE 2013-12-17 11:49 AM
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 Chasin my Dream
Posts: 13651
Location: Alberta | Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 9:31 AM That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you. But then I'd start to think and I feel on the other hand there are people who really need that looming idea of a greater punishment to stay fairly well on the straight and narrow (not implying you do but the general population as a whole). I don't know. This topic interests me a lot. Religion fascinates me, which is weird because I don't believe in it haha.
Even if said "religion" as in believing in a God wasn't present, the belief in a higher power wouldn't cease to exist IMO. I don't think the idea of being an atheist would be the only option there is......ultimately even as an atheist you do believe in something...
Not all religions believe in a said " God" when you look at the Native Americans they believe in many spirits that guided certain aspects oh their lives...
...just discussing....
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 Angel in a Sorrel Coat
Posts: 16030
Location: In a happy place | I believe because my mother is a Christian woman and took me to church every week. She has undeniable faith so I learned from attending church and being raised in a Christian home. As have my children. I wish I had something really earth shattering to say but that explains me. | |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 8:31 AM That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you. But then I'd start to think and I feel on the other hand there are people who really need that looming idea of a greater punishment to stay fairly well on the straight and narrow (not implying you do but the general population as a whole). I don't know. This topic interests me a lot. Religion fascinates me, which is weird because I don't believe in it haha.
I'm kind of the same way.....I'm agnostic. I believe there is a God who plans out fate and has a reason for what happens....but I have yet to be SAVED or have a relationship.....I just don't know how. I feel like a fraud whenever I think about getting serious. I DO believe in the idea of a positive attitude, which God/religion seems to bring to people. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | hammer_time - 2013-12-17 1:13 PM Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 8:31 AM That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you. But then I'd start to think and I feel on the other hand there are people who really need that looming idea of a greater punishment to stay fairly well on the straight and narrow (not implying you do but the general population as a whole). I don't know. This topic interests me a lot. Religion fascinates me, which is weird because I don't believe in it haha. I'm kind of the same way.....I'm agnostic. I believe there is a God who plans out fate and has a reason for what happens....but I have yet to be SAVED or have a relationship.....I just don't know how. I feel like a fraud whenever I think about getting serious. I DO believe in the idea of a positive attitude, which God/religion seems to bring to people.
Technically agnostic means you are not sure if there is a god or not. That is basically how I feel... that I do not know if there is a "higher power" or not. I am open to all possibilities, and I like learning about the various religions of the world. I find the subject pretty interesting.
BTW, not all scientists are athiests or agnostics. In fact, the founder of the Human Genome Project is some sort of Christian religion.
Science is an extremely interesting subject. So is religion. Our understanding of both subjects is limited by our intelligence as a species. | |
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 Thread Killer
Posts: 7545
| Hollywood's Fan - 2013-12-17 12:18 PM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-18 10:07 AM Hollywood's Fan - 2013-12-17 10:57 AM What makes me believe? Certainly not the theories and writings of men. Honestly, I have had God in my heart, always. I never questioned his existance because I have felt his presence since I was a small child. God and religion are two seperate things. Religion is man's way to God, and some try to make it seem very complicated. The bible is God's textbook on life, his gift of a manuscript designed to guide the people he created in having the life he created them to have. Its perfect. Every question that you could ever have about the foundation of life can be found in the Bible. You just have to look for it, and seek the answers.
Men have been trying to disprove the facts of the Bible for years, but still it endures. If not divinely inspired, how could it have stood the test of time all these years? If just a book written by men, why would it not been thrown out years ago as hogwash? If Jesus Christ were just a man, wouldn't he have been forgotten about long ago?
I have a difficult time understanding how some do not believe in God. Look at the wonders of his creation. How complex we are as human beings, the different animal and plant species - each designed with a specific purpose in the food chain. The oceans, the desert, the Grand Canyon, etc., etc., etc. I feel sorry for those who make it their life's work to try and disprove God's existance, when to embrace him and the teachings of his word (the bible) is what leads to a fulfilling and happy life.
And, I wondered reading your post, what exactly has been found that proves the bible to be false? The book, "Misquoting Jesus", has a lot of good info about purposeful changes, and mistakes in our present version of the Bible. There is no question there are mistakes, and that's why you can't take a verse out of context and base a religion on it. However, I do think that taken overall, it's an excellent message in where we came from and how we should live. Just because I don't believe that it is infallible and in the original form of divine inspiration doesn't lessen my Faith one iota.
The Bible was written and then translated again and again by man, correct?
If that is the case, I can believe that some things in it could have been altered or changed (for better or for worse). To err is human.
As far as my beliefs go....I don't really know for sure. I'll echo HammerTime in saying that I feel like a fraud when I entertain the thought of "getting serious". I don't buy many of the stories in the Bible (although I believe that there are some good passages, sayings, and quotes from it). There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. There are also things in the Bible that have been proven true by science.
I also liked what Rach.K said about having never seen something that didn't have a creator. A very, very good point. I tend to understand science a little better, but the Big Bang theory has never really made much sense to me. At the same time, it kind of sounds like the creation story. Darkness everywhere/nothingness - then suddenly - "Let there be light".
I could entertain the possibility of a God. I believe in evolution and many of the things that science has discovered make sense to me. Perhaps God created the Earth and had to perfect it (evolution/extinction/natural selection). Perhaps God and Mother Nature are different names for the same force or being.
Just my thoughts....sorry for any spelling errors.
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| The FACT that I have ALWAYS felt the presence of God in my life. And as I've gotten older I feel the Holy Spirit in me. There are some things that cannot be explained but only felt. The unexplainable power of love (you can't see love you can only feel it), an abiding feeling so down deep inside of me that I cannot put it into words. People say things of the bible have been disproved...not to me they have not. The words of the prophets of years ago, from the Old Testament that have, in fact, been proven to pan out just as they were told. The FACT that generations come and go through this world in a revolving-door fashion and my belief that there is a heaven and a hell, as scripture tell us there is, one of which that everyone ends up at as their final destination. And if all that were not enough, I can look at the grandeur,beauty and power of nature and KNOW there is a God that created it all. Men try to use human/worldly/of the flesh reasoning to explain things that we are not capable of completely comprehending in our little minds (compared to HIM). Why? Because in mortalness we are trying to "understand" something of a divine nature. But we can "choose" to believe it or not. We are asked to simply believe but that seems to be so very hard for some and so very easy for others. He is our Father, we are His children and just like we don't tell the details of everything to our children he doesn't completely explain everything to us. He has;however, given us enough information that we should take Him at his word.
Edited by runs4fun 2013-12-17 2:43 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 1432
Location: Never in one place long | Well... I'm not really sure.. I guess it is within me to believe... I tried NOT believing for a period in my life and kept finding myself drawn back to God and have since become MUCH stronger in my faith.... I can feel God and see his works everyday. The more I tried to run the more I came back to him!! Very crazy. | |
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| DLV - 2013-12-17 3:47 PM Well... I'm not really sure.. I guess it is within me to believe... I tried NOT believing for a period in my life and kept finding myself drawn back to God and have since become MUCH stronger in my faith.... I can feel God and see his works everyday. The more I tried to run the more I came back to him!! Very crazy.
You have the Holy Spirit working, or trying, to work within you. Life is so much easier when you just give in and let the Spirit have His way with you...LOL. As a friend once said to me, "go with it Sister!". He has good works for you to do and he has peace He wants to give to you. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1432
Location: Never in one place long | runs4fun - 2013-12-17 2:51 PM
DLV - 2013-12-17 3:47 PM Well... I'm not really sure.. I guess it is within me to believe... I tried NOT believing for a period in my life and kept finding myself drawn back to God and have since become MUCH stronger in my faith.... I can feel God and see his works everyday. The more I tried to run the more I came back to him!! Very crazy.
You have the Holy Spirit working, or trying, to work within you. Life is so much easier when you just give in and let the Spirit have His way with you...LOL. As a friend once said to me, "go with it Sister!". He has good works for you to do and he has peace He wants to give to you.
I agree, I have never felt so close to God and am trying to let him have his way lol, I finally have realized that MY wants are not always what he has in store for me and getting upset over it does no good. :) | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 725
Location: Hogwarts | barrelracr131 - 2013-12-17 2:33 PM
hammer_time - 2013-12-17 1:13 PM Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 8:31 AM That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you. But then I'd start to think and I feel on the other hand there are people who really need that looming idea of a greater punishment to stay fairly well on the straight and narrow (not implying you do but the general population as a whole). I don't know. This topic interests me a lot. Religion fascinates me, which is weird because I don't believe in it haha. I'm kind of the same way.....I'm agnostic. I believe there is a God who plans out fate and has a reason for what happens....but I have yet to be SAVED or have a relationship.....I just don't know how. I feel like a fraud whenever I think about getting serious. I DO believe in the idea of a positive attitude, which God/religion seems to bring to people.
BTW, not all scientists are athiests or agnostics. In fact, the founder of the Human Genome Project is some sort of Christian religion.
Science is an extremely interesting subject. So is religion. Our understanding of both subjects is limited by our intelligence as a species.
I think I am more of a spiritual atheist. I believe that everything is connected in some way but not in a specific higher being. That's the definition of atheism is not believing in God or gods. Thank you to all who have replied by the way! I have been enjoying reading them all. I just wanted to talk about it because what's the point in taking a class without talking about it outside of the classroom? I read a really cool book for a report in this one called Atom and Eve it is a just a collection of interviews by prominent scientists, religious people, etc. that discuss there faith. A lot of scientists are devout Christians. Some Christians are strongly against science while others talk about how good a relationship between the two could be. It was fascinating.
ETA: I wish I could have a conversation with all you personally. I'm really not trying to disprove religion or anything like that I'm just honestly fascinated as to what draws people to certain things. Its really the only thing in college that has really captured my attention so far and I like having discussions about religion and faith and everything. I just wish it wasn't so much of a taboo in our culture. For those who believe wholeheartedly, I am envious of your conviction in believing so much in something. I hope none of you think this is an attack or anything on what you believe. I feel like a few people above who have said they feel like frauds sometimes.
Edited by Della&bubba 2013-12-17 4:30 PM
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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 10:31 AM That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you....
Ever ponder the origin of your moral compass? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 4625
Location: Desert Land | Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 11:45 AM Hollywood's Fan - 2013-12-17 12:18 PM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-18 10:07 AM Hollywood's Fan - 2013-12-17 10:57 AM What makes me believe? Certainly not the theories and writings of men. Honestly, I have had God in my heart, always. I never questioned his existance because I have felt his presence since I was a small child. God and religion are two seperate things. Religion is man's way to God, and some try to make it seem very complicated. The bible is God's textbook on life, his gift of a manuscript designed to guide the people he created in having the life he created them to have. Its perfect. Every question that you could ever have about the foundation of life can be found in the Bible. You just have to look for it, and seek the answers.
Men have been trying to disprove the facts of the Bible for years, but still it endures. If not divinely inspired, how could it have stood the test of time all these years? If just a book written by men, why would it not been thrown out years ago as hogwash? If Jesus Christ were just a man, wouldn't he have been forgotten about long ago?
I have a difficult time understanding how some do not believe in God. Look at the wonders of his creation. How complex we are as human beings, the different animal and plant species - each designed with a specific purpose in the food chain. The oceans, the desert, the Grand Canyon, etc., etc., etc. I feel sorry for those who make it their life's work to try and disprove God's existance, when to embrace him and the teachings of his word (the bible) is what leads to a fulfilling and happy life.
And, I wondered reading your post, what exactly has been found that proves the bible to be false? The book, "Misquoting Jesus", has a lot of good info about purposeful changes, and mistakes in our present version of the Bible. There is no question there are mistakes, and that's why you can't take a verse out of context and base a religion on it. However, I do think that taken overall, it's an excellent message in where we came from and how we should live. Just because I don't believe that it is infallible and in the original form of divine inspiration doesn't lessen my Faith one iota.
If that is the case, I can believe that some things in it could have been altered or changed (for better or for worse). To err is human.
As far as my beliefs go....I don't really know for sure. I'll echo HammerTime in saying that I feel like a fraud when I entertain the thought of "getting serious". I don't buy many of the stories in the Bible (although I believe that there are some good passages, sayings, and quotes from it). There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. There are also things in the Bible that have been proven true by science.
I also liked what Rach.K said about having never seen something that didn't have a creator. A very, very good point. I tend to understand science a little better, but the Big Bang theory has never really made much sense to me. At the same time, it kind of sounds like the creation story. Darkness everywhere/nothingness - then suddenly - "Let there be light".
I could entertain the possibility of a God. I believe in evolution and many of the things that science has discovered make sense to me. Perhaps God created the Earth and had to perfect it (evolution/extinction/natural selection). Perhaps God and Mother Nature are different names for the same force or being.
Just my thoughts....sorry for any spelling errors.
I am on the same wave length as you.
I'm glad this thread has gone in a positive way. I am learning from everyone's answers I was worried this topic would take a turn for the worst. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 597
| I have FAITH, I BELIEVE, I KNOW that God is real.
*I have my faith because I feel him, he's with me every step of the way, every single day. It's not something that I can explain, I just know He's here with me everyday.
It may not seem like much to some people, but when I'm scared, or worried, or happy or sad, or just whatever I pray, I don't always pray out loud He's omniscient, He knows what we say and what we think, He hears me, He knows when I need him, and never not once has God let me down, the answer to my prayers may not be exactly what I asked for but it's ALWAYS what I NEED.
My faith is my own private thing, I'm not one to push anything on someone else, I don't regularly attend church, I don't preach to people. But there's always a time to witness, there's always a moment when someone needs a champion in their corner, and who better to have cheering you on than our Lord and Savior?
From a scientific point of view, my question for people who are against creationism. "Why is it impossible to think that God created the world in a Big Bang sort of way?" That's what I think, maybe the Big Bang theory is correct, but there's another step just before that and it was Gods design. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| The bible is the inspired word of God. There are no mistakes in it. I would question anyone's faith that believed other wise. | |
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 Ima Fickle Fan
Posts: 3547
Location: Texas | I grew up going to church all my life. But perhaps one thing that truly solidified my faith was an AP biology class I took my senior year of high school. One of our projects was to create a self-sustaining "planet." Our planets were aquariums that we could put anything in them before they were sealed off. We were free to use any materials and had the science book as our guide. The first attempt was met with failure on every group within two weeks. So, we were allowed to try again. Even then, the longest time a "planet" sustained life was less than two months. Even with all the knowledge and information available to create a world, no one in this class was able to construct an environment to sustain life.
For me, there is too much order, thought, and design in our world to deny the existence of God. The Big Bang Theory relies on choas and mutations that would not occur without some instigator.
Also, even in my darkest hour, I know I have never been alone. We are placed on this Earth for a reason, and there is much more beyond this world. If I were to not believe, that would mean there is no reason to be good or evil. It would be a sad existence if we were only to live and die with nothing else left in store. That, to me, would be such a hopeless existence. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1304
| I believe for very personal reasons. I was raised this way and God has always shown himself in everything I do, and has always proved to me why I should believe in him! He's always, through even the tough times, made my life better in some way and I always feel that I'm not alone. His presence is with me and I always have someone to talk to. He's my rock and I believe he's saved my life in more ways than one  | |
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Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | TXBO - 2013-12-18 3:55 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science?
Yes, my question too. Isn't global warming based on "the facts of science" as well? | |
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| TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:55 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science?
Yes, thatwould be my question, too....what has been proven wrong my science? Science often finds that it was wrong about things and corrects itself in time. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1304
| I also wanted to add, because I saw everyone suggesting books, that there is a book called "Proof of Heaven" by Dr. Eben Alexander and I've been dying to read it!! I saw him on TV introduce this book and here's a basic summary. He was a neurosurgeon that felt his mind was too scientific to believe in God and the bible. He had a near death experience... and I can't say the rest cause it's so AMAZING! Hearing a summary of his story makes me believe that much more! | |
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Thread Killer
Posts: 7545
| TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:55 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science?
I suppose that is basically up to interpretation and it depends on who you ask. For someone who takes the Bible as the word of God, no question or doubt about it, there will never be scientific evidence that proves the Bible wrong. I was speaking for myself, and what I personally believe.
For me, science has proven that the Earth is much, much older than the Bible says it to be. It has proven that the animals that walk the Earth now did not just appear, they changed and grew over time. That includes human kind.
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Until you have felt the Holy Spirit touch you and get in your heart then you may have doubts.
Id be lost without god in my heart. he has carried me thru life and sturggles and gave me hope . I have walked with him in the light and there is a heaven.I wont explain myself.. it is what I know and feel.Its a personal faith. | |
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Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| So imagine you are the best scientist in the world and your task is to create a seed. Imagine what a seed can do. Inside that one seed is the Dna of everytree before it and the possibility of every tree to come. Can you do it?
I LOVE science. I LOVE physics. But what you really have, is a few ingredients of a complicated recipe. It's always exciting when you get something right, but it never quite matches up to how mom made it.
If you study physics enough the building block of everything is nothing. Essentially, mass does not exsist. Even the best Scientist do not totally refute the idea of a creator.
Then we go back to what came first the chicken or the egg?
Nobody can answer that, not even the best scientist. Anyone that would rely on the knowledge of man is not thinking big enough.
Of course, you can all just listen to my uncle who, on our camping trips would look out to the stars and proclaim; "What if we are nothing but an ant farm in some snotty nosed alien kid's bedroom?" Thanks uncle Dwayne for making me think! | |
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| It is no secret that things have "evolved" over time. That does not mean they were not created by God. In the early biblical days, civilization was so very new and simple that the wayHe chose to communicate his creation was in a way that man-kind could understand at the time, in simple terms, with simple stories. Yes, we as a people and a civilization have evolved and our understanding of things because of education, including science, mathematics, etc. are not nearly as simple as they were all those many years ago. Yes, the Bible has been translated many times to keep up with our languages, lingo and everyday way of communicating....yet the true story, the important part of the story NEVER changes...yesterday, today and tomorrow, it will be the same. He created us. He loves us, yet he can be angered. He forgives. He gave His ONLY son and whoever BELIEVES in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. He sent His son NOT to condemn us but to SAVE us!!!! Jesus has gone ahead of us to prepare a place for US!!! Further, if you study the Proverbs you will find life answers, good advice on how to live regarding every circumstance imaginable. In the Psalms you will find comfort. on and on....what a remarkable book that has withstood time, even as civilization has changed (evolved) throughout all these many years!
Edited by runs4fun 2013-12-17 5:49 PM
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Purveyor of unconventional wisdom
Posts: 17112
Location: CA | It's not that it MAKES me believe, it is more that it LETS me believe. :) | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 5:13 PM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:55 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science?
For me, science has proven that the Earth is much, much older than the Bible says it to be. It has proven that the animals that walk the Earth now did not just appear, they changed and grew over time. That includes human kind.
You might be interested to know that science has disproven evolution. Specifically, it conflicts with the law of biogenisis.
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 Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Bigfoot - 2013-12-17 4:54 PM The bible is the inspired word of God. There are no mistakes in it. I would question anyone's faith that believed other wise.
Which Bible? There are many different versions of the Bible. Which one is the correct one? Since they are all the Bible and the "word of God" are they all right? The Bible may have been the inspired word of God but humans were also given free will. Who is to say that the Bible has not been translated incorrectly over the years or things left out by those that don't believe in certain parts?
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | DLV - 2013-12-17 2:47 PM Well... I'm not really sure.. I guess it is within me to believe... I tried NOT believing for a period in my life and kept finding myself drawn back to God and have since become MUCH stronger in my faith.... I can feel God and see his works everyday. The more I tried to run the more I came back to him!! Very crazy.
I also went through a stage where I tried not to believe. But I found myself always talking to someone when I was out riding alone. I was telling someone of my troubles or thanking someone for certain things but who was I talking to if I didn't believe in Him? I decided it wasn't God I had a problem with it was religion. It was during a time I was being forced to believe certain things I didn't believe in and I had questions that people would not answer so I took it out on Him and said I didn't believe. The fact is that religion is man made. It was not God's intention for us to all be separated by different beliefs. Too many people follow religions but not the actual Bible itself. Many religions do not teach much from the Bible but just what "they" believe. | |
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 4:25 PM barrelracr131 - 2013-12-17 2:33 PM hammer_time - 2013-12-17 1:13 PM Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 8:31 AM That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you. But then I'd start to think and I feel on the other hand there are people who really need that looming idea of a greater punishment to stay fairly well on the straight and narrow (not implying you do but the general population as a whole). I don't know. This topic interests me a lot. Religion fascinates me, which is weird because I don't believe in it haha. I'm kind of the same way.....I'm agnostic. I believe there is a God who plans out fate and has a reason for what happens....but I have yet to be SAVED or have a relationship.....I just don't know how. I feel like a fraud whenever I think about getting serious. I DO believe in the idea of a positive attitude, which God/religion seems to bring to people.
BTW, not all scientists are athiests or agnostics. In fact, the founder of the Human Genome Project is some sort of Christian religion.
Science is an extremely interesting subject. So is religion. Our understanding of both subjects is limited by our intelligence as a species. I think I am more of a spiritual atheist. I believe that everything is connected in some way but not in a specific higher being. That's the definition of atheism is not believing in God or gods. Thank you to all who have replied by the way! I have been enjoying reading them all. I just wanted to talk about it because what's the point in taking a class without talking about it outside of the classroom? I read a really cool book for a report in this one called Atom and Eve it is a just a collection of interviews by prominent scientists, religious people, etc. that discuss there faith. A lot of scientists are devout Christians. Some Christians are strongly against science while others talk about how good a relationship between the two could be. It was fascinating. ETA: I wish I could have a conversation with all you personally. I'm really not trying to disprove religion or anything like that I'm just honestly fascinated as to what draws people to certain things. Its really the only thing in college that has really captured my attention so far and I like having discussions about religion and faith and everything. I just wish it wasn't so much of a taboo in our culture. For those who believe wholeheartedly, I am envious of your conviction in believing so much in something. I hope none of you think this is an attack or anything on what you believe. I feel like a few people above who have said they feel like frauds sometimes.
I think this very thread is the work of our LORD. He wants us to talk about him, to spread his word and his love for us.
Have you ever sat back and pondered why you felt compelled to put this thread here? Or why you find discussion of faith facinating? I think it is GOD's work to bring you back to him.
Ever read the book "What happens when I die?" | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 4:25 PM barrelracr131 - 2013-12-17 2:33 PM hammer_time - 2013-12-17 1:13 PM Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 8:31 AM That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you. But then I'd start to think and I feel on the other hand there are people who really need that looming idea of a greater punishment to stay fairly well on the straight and narrow (not implying you do but the general population as a whole). I don't know. This topic interests me a lot. Religion fascinates me, which is weird because I don't believe in it haha. I'm kind of the same way.....I'm agnostic. I believe there is a God who plans out fate and has a reason for what happens....but I have yet to be SAVED or have a relationship.....I just don't know how. I feel like a fraud whenever I think about getting serious. I DO believe in the idea of a positive attitude, which God/religion seems to bring to people.
BTW, not all scientists are athiests or agnostics. In fact, the founder of the Human Genome Project is some sort of Christian religion.
Science is an extremely interesting subject. So is religion. Our understanding of both subjects is limited by our intelligence as a species. I think I am more of a spiritual atheist. I believe that everything is connected in some way but not in a specific higher being. That's the definition of atheism is not believing in God or gods. Thank you to all who have replied by the way! I have been enjoying reading them all. I just wanted to talk about it because what's the point in taking a class without talking about it outside of the classroom? I read a really cool book for a report in this one called Atom and Eve it is a just a collection of interviews by prominent scientists, religious people, etc. that discuss there faith. A lot of scientists are devout Christians. Some Christians are strongly against science while others talk about how good a relationship between the two could be. It was fascinating. ETA: I wish I could have a conversation with all you personally. I'm really not trying to disprove religion or anything like that I'm just honestly fascinated as to what draws people to certain things. Its really the only thing in college that has really captured my attention so far and I like having discussions about religion and faith and everything. I just wish it wasn't so much of a taboo in our culture. For those who believe wholeheartedly, I am envious of your conviction in believing so much in something. I hope none of you think this is an attack or anything on what you believe. I feel like a few people above who have said they feel like frauds sometimes.
Those who are secure in their beliefs will not feel attacked by someone asking questions.  | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Bigfoot - 2013-12-17 4:54 PM The bible is the inspired word of God. There are no mistakes in it. I would question anyone's faith that believed other wise.
Question away. I'm secure in my Faith and beliefs.  | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Just Bring It - 2013-12-17 5:43 PM Bigfoot - 2013-12-17 4:54 PM The bible is the inspired word of God. There are no mistakes in it. I would question anyone's faith that believed other wise. Which Bible? There are many different versions of the Bible. Which one is the correct one? Since they are all the Bible and the "word of God" are they all right? The Bible may have been the inspired word of God but humans were also given free will. Who is to say that the Bible has not been translated incorrectly over the years or things left out by those that don't believe in certain parts?
Edited by TXBO 2013-12-17 6:00 PM
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 5:13 PM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:55 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science?
For me, science has proven that the Earth is much, much older than the Bible says it to be. It has proven that the animals that walk the Earth now did not just appear, they changed and grew over time. That includes human kind.
That one is easy. God's time is not the same as ours. A breath to him is 1,000 years to us. | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 4:25 PM barrelracr131 - 2013-12-17 2:33 PM hammer_time - 2013-12-17 1:13 PM Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 8:31 AM That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you. But then I'd start to think and I feel on the other hand there are people who really need that looming idea of a greater punishment to stay fairly well on the straight and narrow (not implying you do but the general population as a whole). I don't know. This topic interests me a lot. Religion fascinates me, which is weird because I don't believe in it haha. I'm kind of the same way.....I'm agnostic. I believe there is a God who plans out fate and has a reason for what happens....but I have yet to be SAVED or have a relationship.....I just don't know how. I feel like a fraud whenever I think about getting serious. I DO believe in the idea of a positive attitude, which God/religion seems to bring to people.
BTW, not all scientists are athiests or agnostics. In fact, the founder of the Human Genome Project is some sort of Christian religion.
Science is an extremely interesting subject. So is religion. Our understanding of both subjects is limited by our intelligence as a species. I think I am more of a spiritual atheist. I believe that everything is connected in some way but not in a specific higher being. That's the definition of atheism is not believing in God or gods. Thank you to all who have replied by the way! I have been enjoying reading them all. I just wanted to talk about it because what's the point in taking a class without talking about it outside of the classroom? I read a really cool book for a report in this one called Atom and Eve it is a just a collection of interviews by prominent scientists, religious people, etc. that discuss there faith. A lot of scientists are devout Christians. Some Christians are strongly against science while others talk about how good a relationship between the two could be. It was fascinating. ETA: I wish I could have a conversation with all you personally. I'm really not trying to disprove religion or anything like that I'm just honestly fascinated as to what draws people to certain things. Its really the only thing in college that has really captured my attention so far and I like having discussions about religion and faith and everything. I just wish it wasn't so much of a taboo in our culture. For those who believe wholeheartedly, I am envious of your conviction in believing so much in something. I hope none of you think this is an attack or anything on what you believe. I feel like a few people above who have said they feel like frauds sometimes.
I also love to talk about this topic. It fascinates me as well. I was raised a Catholic but have married a Adventist. To me Adventist know the Bible! I did not feel that way about Catholics. I went to Sunday school from preschool until I think 10th grade (or whenever Sunday school ended) and got confirmed. It was during the time of working on getting confirmed when I went through the stage of not believing. I did not like the Catholic church and did not want to say that I believed in it. I did end up going through with it for my mother's sake. I then got away from the church and started to believe on my own and then I met my now husband and he was very knowledgeable of the Bible and was raised in a very religious home. We had a lot of talks and I got to learn more about the Adventist church and their beliefs and it makes sense to me! I feel Adventist are pure and true believers and beautiful Christians. I never felt that way around Catholics. Now I am not trying to bash Catholics in any way shape or form (remember I was raised Catholic and most of my family and friends are Catholic)! I am just speaking of my experiences. There are a few beliefs that some Adventist believe in that I do not (such as their profit Ellen White) but there are so many other beliefs that I completely agree with. Plus the shady pasts of many religions is another reason why I have been turned off of religions.
Anyways I love to talk about the Bible, different religions, and beliefs. I love to learn as much as I can and maybe share something that will make someone else question their beliefs and put them on a better path. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 597
| Just Bring It - 2013-12-17 4:48 PM
DLV - 2013-12-17 2:47 PM Well... I'm not really sure.. I guess it is within me to believe... I tried NOT believing for a period in my life and kept finding myself drawn back to God and have since become MUCH stronger in my faith.... I can feel God and see his works everyday. The more I tried to run the more I came back to him!! Very crazy.
I also went through a stage where I tried not to believe. But I found myself always talking to someone when I was out riding alone. I was telling someone of my troubles or thanking someone for certain things but who was I talking to if I didn't believe in Him? I decided it wasn't God I had a problem with it was religion. It was during a time I was being forced to believe certain things I didn't believe in and I had questions that people would not answer so I took it out on Him and said I didn't believe. The fact is that religion is man made. It was not God's intention for us to all be separated by different beliefs. Too many people follow religions but not the actual Bible itself. Many religions do not teach much from the Bible but just what "they" believe.
Could not agree more JustBringIt, it's religion that turns people off to God, not God!
I was going through an extremely tough time in my life, my marriage wasn't working because of the stress that was being brought on by outside factors, I felt like everything was falling apart, I was trying so, so hard to do it all on my own, but I had forgotten one really important thing. We are NEVER alone. I was thumbing through my Bible one day and it literally flopped open to page 744 Psalms, and as I read through that page a verse jumped out to me, it honestly seemed highlighted, Psalm 31.24 " Be brave. Be strong. Expect God to get there soon." I decided then and there to do exactly that, I was brave and I was strong and I EXPECTED Him to come. He did and we made it through, the troubles we were going through financially, business wise, with the ranch, with animals EVERYTHING that I couldn't do on my own finally leveled out and we could breath again. I KNOW he's there or I would not be where I am right now! | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 142
| Just Bring It - 2013-12-17 5:43 PM Bigfoot - 2013-12-17 4:54 PM The bible is the inspired word of God. There are no mistakes in it. I would question anyone's faith that believed other wise. Which Bible? There are many different versions of the Bible. Which one is the correct one? Since they are all the Bible and the "word of God" are they all right? The Bible may have been the inspired word of God but humans were also given free will. Who is to say that the Bible has not been translated incorrectly over the years or things left out by those that don't believe in certain parts?
This is very true and one reason why sola scriptura doesnt really work because the "bible" needs interpretation. It is a book written within a LIVING tradition and needs to be understood within that tradition, though there is a LOT just any person can get from reading it of course. I think for me what had made me a stronger believer (because I am a more logical person) is coming to a true ancient orthodox understanding of the scripture and the Church as the body of Christ. The Bible is not a science book and it isnt a history book either and shouldnt be approached as one. Its a book of spiritual truth and the the entire whole old testament should be read through the lense of the risen Christ.
This is a great podcast on approaching the scriptures -
http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/aftoday/the_eastern_orthodox_approach_to_the_bible
I also have had issues and questions in the past about problems with God vs science but the more I have learned about the deep mystical theology of the Church I actually think the Saints are quite far ahead of science when it comes to the understanding of the universe. They just dont have the language to even express the realities they experience because it doesnt even exist in human words yet lol.
For instance the belief of creation out of nothing - God was not in need of any "matter" to create the world, but his energies fill all of creation, yet are not locatable in space and time, in fact they even seem to be dependant somehow on the observer.
“Uncreated energy,” writes the Orthodox theologian, Vladimir Lasky, “is the manifestation of the essence of God, in which everything that exists partakes, thus making God known. This energy is inseparable from God’s essence, in which He goes forth from Himself, manifests, communicates and gives Himself. As for the manifestation, itself, it is eternal, for it is the glory of God.”
"Father Seraphim Rose once wrote that nothingness, is the point of convergence, or axis, of the universe. If nothingness, or self-emptying, is the axis of the universe, then the cross of Christ, the greatest sign of man of the self-emptying of God, now becomes that axis. Christ stands at the axis, and there in the space where there is nothing, we find not an impersonal void, but the personal heart of the selfless, self-forgetting God."
"Because because the Word is self-existent, self-sufficient, and conscious of no wants, it can create, give and sustain life, and at the same time, seek nothing of its own......God is totally spontaneous and selfless."
Scientist have theories that the world is spontaneous and self generated but cannot and will not ever find the origin of the wisdom, and laws of creation because they dont exist in our measurable realm. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1092
Location: OK | My best suggestion is this. Go to church and just sit and listen. Go a few times. If you are so sure there is no God, then nothing said in that room will move you to tears, but I promise if you go, it will happen. Then your entire life and outlook will change. I love cowboy church. Jeans, t-shirt, nobody singles you out. It's just hearing the word. I believe in God. Now the past and how it happened, I'm not sure about. Maybe it was all created in a certain # of days, or maybe days are a relative term, and it happened over 1000s of years.... My mom is an atheist, and from seeing both sides of that, I think that is a sadder life. You die. You are dirt. The end. Not much to look forward to... I would never choose to believe that way if for nothing else, to make death less dismal. I believe because there are things that have happened in my life that could not just be coincidence. | |
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 Dancing in my Mind
Posts: 3062
Location: Eastern OH but my heart is in WV | runs4fun - 2013-12-17 2:32 PM
The FACT that I have ALWAYS felt the presence of God in my life. And as I've gotten older I feel the Holy Spirit in me. There are some things that cannot be explained but only felt. The unexplainable power of love (you can't see love you can only feel it), an abiding feeling so down deep inside of me that I cannot put it into words. People say things of the bible have been disproved...not to me they have not. The words of the prophets of years ago, from the Old Testament that have, in fact, been proven to pan out just as they were told. The FACT that generations come and go through this world in a revolving-door fashion and my belief that there is a heaven and a hell, as scripture tell us there is, one of which that everyone ends up at as their final destination. And if all that were not enough, I can look at the grandeur,beauty and power of nature and KNOW there is a God that created it all. Men try to use human/worldly/of the flesh reasoning to explain things that we are not capable of completely comprehending in our little minds (compared to HIM). Why? Because in mortalness we are trying to "understand" something of a divine nature. But we can "choose" to believe it or not. We are asked to simply believe but that seems to be so very hard for some and so very easy for others. He is our Father, we are His children and just like we don't tell the details of everything to our children he doesn't completely explain everything to us. He has;however, given us enough information that we should take Him at his word.
Beautifully said
Just as some have a hard time believing in God, I have an equally hard time trying to understand how one does not believe in the power and glory of God. I have never had a "grand" moment of "awaking" but an ongoing acknowledgement of God's presence. Periods in my life, I feel God's spirit moving and changing me more than other times but I have never questioned God's existence or Jesus walked the Earth . I FULLY acknowledge though that God comes to people in different ways and through different experiences in life, so everyone's journey is unique. Some have grand moments of awaking, others he comes to them slowly and over years, yet some never open their hearts to his callings.
As for the Bible, I have attend church since birth and have attended numerous Bible studies. I still feel very limited in my knowledge and understanding of the Bible. I lead an adult Sunday School class and it is interesting how each of us can take something totally different from a passage or Chapter. To be honest, if I based my "belief" COMPLETLY on my full UNDERSTANDING of the Bible, I would still be questioning God's love for me. He is not seeking our total understanding of the Bible but OUR acceptance of Jesus Christ. Yes, it is a VERY important tool/teacher in learning God's word but I am sure there are people that could be "scholars" in the word/meanings of the Bible but still not be true believers because they never accept Jesus Christ into their lives.
I will never be a person that can debate the Bible or even quote several verses but from experience, many times after praying about something I have just RANDOMLY opened my Bible and I am brought to tears that God led me to a specific Chapter/encouragement/answers. Talk about a humbling experience.
I see the Bible more as an important teaching tool, prayer keeps me personally connected to God, and the Holy Spirit filling my life is what "makes me believe."
Edited by Rolling J 2013-12-17 6:36 PM
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Blessed 
Location: Here | T turning 3 - 2013-12-17 10:30 AM Many years ago I was on here in a debate with a few folks about the reality of reincarnation, pyschics and such. For every thing I brought up De had an answer. For every question I asked, she had an answer, for every fear i brought up, she had an answer. She got all those answers from the Bible. I am not a big bible reader, I will admit that first off, but I am strong in Jesus. I could tell you stories you would not beleive, but if not for my Lord and Savior, I wouldn't be here right now. My coming out party was quite ummmm exciting. lol Never did she push me, or tell me I was wrong, she would just have the answer. She takes no credit, and gives the glory to the Holy Spirit and God, but I think because of her heart and love of Christ she took me on, and saved my ass. :)
To understand the bible you have to be a history scholar and speak either latin or greek. Our versions aren't quite translated right and the more modern translations aren't even close. Do I believe in the miracles.... :) **** straight I do. I see them here once in a while.
Yeehaw is amazing in her faith
And something to remember nothing MAKES YOU no one MAKES YOU
it is by Faith and Grace and the Holy Spirit that helps you find Jesus. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| angel123 - 2013-12-17 6:19 PM This is very true and one reason why sola scriptura doesnt really work because the "bible" needs interpretation. It is a book written within a LIVING tradition and needs to be understood within that tradition, though there is a LOT just any person can get from reading it of course. ....
What's your understanding of Sola Scriptura? I don't want to derail her thread by turning this into a theological discussion but it's very fundamental to my faith and I find that most Orthodox misunderstand it. | |
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Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| You don't need faith to watch nature. If a tree is cut down there are seeds in the dirt to grow a new tree. A replica of the one before it.
If a catapillar goes into a cacoon, there is still the hope for wings. In a random world there would be no need to continue life. It would just end. But all around us we are being shown that there is a cycle to everything, including the seasons, your period, your very own family. It's not hard to see.
Where were you before you were born? You can build a clock but it wont run unless it's plugged into a power source. You have a soul. You have a soul and when you die it goes back to its "source."
Everything in nature is already pointing you to the fact that you will be reborn in some way or the other. You may not remember your name was Katie in your last physical life, but you will know you exsist.
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 Veteran
Posts: 224
Location: La Belle, Mo | For me to not belive in God would be like trying to STOP breathing! I am not like others who were raised with him in their mist, I didnt find him til my later teens, when some new friends introduced me to him. I just know when I accepted him as my saviour my life was different, there was something more, I had HOPE again!!
We got in to some different chruchs, what with being in the military and traveling around alot, ended up in one that was all about rules and not about the love. Drove us away from God, we wondered like Egypt in the wilderness for MANY yrs, I always felt him pulling on my heart but would resist him, til I found a church that FED me, had been to others and just left empty!
I rededicated my life to the Lord again and this time it was even different then before, Most of the time before, I KNEW he was God and my saviour and he was "out" there looking over me. THIS time he was there BESIDE me every step of the way, I could turn to him, I could FEEL him, I felt like he was holding me and comforting me and walking beside me at all times!! Am I perfect now, HECK NO, I still sin, I still fail him DAILY but I beg for forgiveness and he picks me back up brushes me off and helps me back to where I need to be!
I find I MUST tell others about him, people I have known my whole life, who knew me "BEFORE" and also ones I just am getting to know, I am scared spitless most of the time to talk to them about him, for fear of rejection to ME, but I pray and turn myself over to him and he uses me to give them HIS message! Are they ALL saved, NO but I have done my part I have planted the seed he asked me to. With this I also have to say I have missed opertunites to witness to people also as I have allowed Satan to use my fears against me!
I also look around me see all the beauty and wonder how ANYONE can say there is no God, How they can even begin to think that ALL the different types, of trees, grasses, birds, fish, mammals, all living things came from ONE cell that just HAPPENED to split and say oh lets be this today, tomorrow I will be this thing over here and then next week I want to be that!! It just boggles my mind!
I personally feel that unless people have Jesus in there hearts they are really living in a world without hope. Until you have felt the LOVE he has for us, a love you can search til your dying breath and never feel with anything or anyone else, you are empty inside, there is something missing, until you experience that you are NOT whole! | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 448
Location: lone star state | Faith and my life experiences is why I know Jesus is my savior. As stated earlier nothing is random or coincidence.
I encourage you to study C S Lewis... | |
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| Rolling J - 2013-12-17 7:31 PM runs4fun - 2013-12-17 2:32 PM The FACT that I have ALWAYS felt the presence of God in my life. And as I've gotten older I feel the Holy Spirit in me. There are some things that cannot be explained but only felt. The unexplainable power of love (you can't see love you can only feel it), an abiding feeling so down deep inside of me that I cannot put it into words. People say things of the bible have been disproved...not to me they have not. The words of the prophets of years ago, from the Old Testament that have, in fact, been proven to pan out just as they were told. The FACT that generations come and go through this world in a revolving-door fashion and my belief that there is a heaven and a hell, as scripture tell us there is, one of which that everyone ends up at as their final destination. And if all that were not enough, I can look at the grandeur,beauty and power of nature and KNOW there is a God that created it all. Men try to use human/worldly/of the flesh reasoning to explain things that we are not capable of completely comprehending in our little minds (compared to HIM). Why? Because in mortalness we are trying to "understand" something of a divine nature. But we can "choose" to believe it or not. We are asked to simply believe but that seems to be so very hard for some and so very easy for others. He is our Father, we are His children and just like we don't tell the details of everything to our children he doesn't completely explain everything to us. He has;however, given us enough information that we should take Him at his word. Beautifully said Just as some have a hard time believing in God, I have an equally hard time trying to understand how one does not believe in the power and glory of God. I have never had a "grand" moment of "awaking" but an ongoing acknowledgement of God's presence. Periods in my life, I feel God's spirit moving and changing me more than other times but I have never questioned God's existence or Jesus walked the Earth . I FULLY acknowledge though that God comes to people in different ways and through different experiences in life, so everyone's journey is unique. Some have grand moments of awaking, others he comes to them slowly and over years, yet some never open their hearts to his callings. As for the Bible, I have attend church since birth and have attended numerous Bible studies. I still feel very limited in my knowledge and understanding of the Bible. I lead an adult Sunday School class and it is interesting how each of us can take something totally different from a passage or Chapter. To be honest, if I based my "belief" COMPLETLY on my full UNDERSTANDING of the Bible, I would still be questioning God's love for me. He is not seeking our total understanding of the Bible but OUR acceptance of Jesus Christ. Yes, it is a VERY important tool/teacher in learning God's word but I am sure there are people that could be "scholars" in the word/meanings of the Bible but still not be true believers because they never accept Jesus Christ into their lives. I will never be a person that can debate the Bible or even quote several verses but from experience, many times after praying about something I have just RANDOMLY opened my Bible and I am brought to tears that God led me to a specific Chapter/encouragement/answers. Talk about a humbling experience. I see the Bible more as an important teaching tool, prayer keeps me personally connected to God, and the Holy Spirit filling my life is what "makes me believe."
Edited by runs4fun 2013-12-17 7:12 PM
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Thread Killer
Posts: 7545
| Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-17 7:00 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 5:13 PM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:55 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science?
For me, science has proven that the Earth is much, much older than the Bible says it to be. It has proven that the animals that walk the Earth now did not just appear, they changed and grew over time. That includes human kind.
That's a good point. ;)
The bottom line is that I just don't know like so many others. Like I said before, I feel like a fraud when I try to be serious about religion & faith in general. I admire those who are so sure about things when I am not. There are some things that I have an extremely hard time accepting.
Reading this thread has been very interesting. Perhaps religion is what confuses and repels me (not God) like a few others said.
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 IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| The best question in the world to ask a public middle school science teacher!
In science we are driven by evidence. Without evidence you have no way to explain or back up any reasoning that could be considered "credible."
So how do I personally balance evidence vs. belief?
Everything I have been through in my life (which is more then what most 26 year olds have dealt with) I have ALWAYS been okay. I have always been taken care of.
Now-when I apply this to science---
I believe that the things we have an explanation for in science were willed to be done by God in the first place.
Something else that fascinates me and gets me really thinking about God is when I think about the Universe! We just did a series of brain teasers on the Universe in class-and I will admit learning about the Universe FASCINATES ME! There is so much out there-so much unknown-so much more out there beyond our own comprehension-and to me that is God. A higher power that is beyond our own comprehension, but does exist.
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Veteran
Posts: 142
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ETA - this was meant to quote TXBO's question to me :)
That the Bible is a sole source of Authority, which leaves every man up for his own interpretation of it, or following the interpretation of the denomination they are already in all which disaggree on what it actually means. I do believe the Bible to be authoratative and correct (though there are bad translations), but not exhaustive.
Edited by angel123 2013-12-17 8:23 PM
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Cold hands and Warm Heart
Location: oklahoma |
“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
thomas aquinas
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| angel123 - 2013-12-17 7:53 PM
ETA - this was meant to quote TXBO's question to me :)
That the Bible is a sole source of Authority, which leaves every man up for his own interpretation of it, or following the interpretation of the denomination they are already in all which disaggree on what it actually means. I do believe the Bible to be authoratative and correct (though there are bad translations), but not exhaustive.
Our belief in Sola Scriptura does not mean that everyone can interprete Scripture in their own way. It means that we believe the Scriptures to be the complete truth. No one can add to it. No one can subtract from it. All Church teachings and doctrine must be consistent with Scripture. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 7:52 PM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-17 7:00 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 5:13 PM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:55 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science?
For me, science has proven that the Earth is much, much older than the Bible says it to be. It has proven that the animals that walk the Earth now did not just appear, they changed and grew over time. That includes human kind.
Reading this thread has been very interesting. Perhaps religion is what confuses and repels me (not God) like a few others said.
What exactly do you have a hard time accepting? | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 725
Location: Hogwarts | WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2013-12-17 6:48 PM
Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 4:25 PM barrelracr131 - 2013-12-17 2:33 PM hammer_time - 2013-12-17 1:13 PM Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 8:31 AM That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you. But then I'd start to think and I feel on the other hand there are people who really need that looming idea of a greater punishment to stay fairly well on the straight and narrow (not implying you do but the general population as a whole). I don't know. This topic interests me a lot. Religion fascinates me, which is weird because I don't believe in it haha. I'm kind of the same way.....I'm agnostic. I believe there is a God who plans out fate and has a reason for what happens....but I have yet to be SAVED or have a relationship.....I just don't know how. I feel like a fraud whenever I think about getting serious. I DO believe in the idea of a positive attitude, which God/religion seems to bring to people.
BTW, not all scientists are athiests or agnostics. In fact, the founder of the Human Genome Project is some sort of Christian religion.
Science is an extremely interesting subject. So is religion. Our understanding of both subjects is limited by our intelligence as a species. I think I am more of a spiritual atheist. I believe that everything is connected in some way but not in a specific higher being. That's the definition of atheism is not believing in God or gods. Thank you to all who have replied by the way! I have been enjoying reading them all. I just wanted to talk about it because what's the point in taking a class without talking about it outside of the classroom? I read a really cool book for a report in this one called Atom and Eve it is a just a collection of interviews by prominent scientists, religious people, etc. that discuss there faith. A lot of scientists are devout Christians. Some Christians are strongly against science while others talk about how good a relationship between the two could be. It was fascinating. ETA: I wish I could have a conversation with all you personally. I'm really not trying to disprove religion or anything like that I'm just honestly fascinated as to what draws people to certain things. Its really the only thing in college that has really captured my attention so far and I like having discussions about religion and faith and everything. I just wish it wasn't so much of a taboo in our culture. For those who believe wholeheartedly, I am envious of your conviction in believing so much in something. I hope none of you think this is an attack or anything on what you believe. I feel like a few people above who have said they feel like frauds sometimes.
Have you ever sat back and pondered why you felt compelled to put this thread here? Or why you find discussion of faith facinating? I think it is GOD's work to bring you back to him.
Ever read the book "What happens when I die?"
Who knows it might be. I've sometimes felt like there might be some kind of driving force behind nature but I don't know and sometimes I feel like its better to carry the label spiritual atheist or agnostic because I honestly don't know exactly what I believe. It's the time in my life where I'm questioning a lot of things about a whole bunch of things. | |
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 Total Germophobe
Posts: 6443
Location: Montana | What an interesting question. I, personally, don't have a large knowledge of science beyond biology and basic science. I was home schooled, using a Christian based learning program, so pretty much all the science I had had a Christian base with God at the core.
I don't think I can honestly say science, one way or the other, has had an impact on how or why I believe. I believe because I know I am a sinner in need of God's love and mercy and I need His Son, Jesus, to save me. I need the Bible because it shows me the path to eternal life. Perhaps the Bible has been misinterpreted over the years, but it is still here in our every day life and I think still has the same priniciples at play as the original translations. I pray because I want what is best for those I love, and I know God knows what is best for them. And I pray because I want to know what God's will and purpose is for my life, and I want that connectiong with God. Life isn't easy, and I don't think I could make it through without God or His Son or His Word. I'm lost a lot of the times (and I know I would be really lost without God), but God gives me His peace. I know I'm not one of the smartest or wisest people out there in regards to the Bible or God or any other subject, so I know I don't always understand, but everything will be revealed in God's time. LadyJockey on here, with her posts with her takes on Bible verses has inspired me greatly and give me new insight.
I don't know if anything makes me believe beyond the fact of needing to. God gives us a choice to believe or not, so I guess I choose to.
I have to agree with another poster, that I think this question is the work of God because He is being talked about!
Merry Christmas!
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | TXBO - 2013-12-17 7:11 PM angel123 - 2013-12-17 7:53 PM
ETA - this was meant to quote TXBO's question to me :)
That the Bible is a sole source of Authority, which leaves every man up for his own interpretation of it, or following the interpretation of the denomination they are already in all which disaggree on what it actually means. I do believe the Bible to be authoratative and correct (though there are bad translations), but not exhaustive. Our belief in Sola Scriptura does not mean that everyone can interprete Scripture in their own way. It means that we believe the Scriptures to be the complete truth. No one can add to it. No one can subtract from it. All Church teachings and doctrine must be consistent with Scripture.
What a great topic. I believe in God and I believe in a loving God, not a punishing God. I am not religious, but I am very spirtitual and talk to God daily and ask him to show me the way...
What confuses me with your statement is if that the Scripture is supposed to be the complete truth and that All Church teaching and doctrines must be consistent with the Scripture, then why are there different teachings and different versions of the bible within the same religion? Some bibles have more 'books' than others. And why is there an Old Testiment and a New Testiment? Why did man need a new version? That is what is baffling to me. | |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 5:52 PM That's a good point. ;)
The bottom line is that I just don't know like so many others. Like I said before, I feel like a fraud when I try to be serious about religion & faith in general. I admire those who are so sure about things when I am not. There are some things that I have an extremely hard time accepting.
Reading this thread has been very interesting. Perhaps religion is what confuses and repels me (not God) like a few others said.
I, too, have trouble with organized religion, but I no long have trouble with believing in God. A loving God.
A good friend once said to go to my favorite place, sit with my eyes closed and truly open my heart to all things are possible... Listen to the sounds around me, touch the ground below me, feel the air around me. Think of the most trying times in life and pray. I realized after a period of time that I was never alone through those times, that somehow, something was helping me, guiding me, holding me, assuring me... The little miracles were always there, I was just not seeing them before, now I do. I am now filled with the belief that I was never alone and don't ever have to be alone as He is always with me. I am one of God's children and he loves me...
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 Veteran
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Location: southeast | I have always believed in God, grew up in a Baptist church and never questioned anything.....I didn't always live my life like I should have but still believed. Fast forward to age 42... I went thru the lowest point in my life. I was at the point of giving up on everything including life. I was alone, broken and homeless. While laying in bed one night trying to say some soft of desperate prayer God spoke to me. He called me by name and said "hold on". That has been over two years ago and I have since got my life back on track and realized He was there for me when no one else was. He saved me, my job and the rest of my life. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Anniemae - 2013-12-17 11:59 PM TXBO - 2013-12-17 7:11 PM angel123 - 2013-12-17 7:53 PM
ETA - this was meant to quote TXBO's question to me :)
That the Bible is a sole source of Authority, which leaves every man up for his own interpretation of it, or following the interpretation of the denomination they are already in all which disaggree on what it actually means. I do believe the Bible to be authoratative and correct (though there are bad translations), but not exhaustive. Our belief in Sola Scriptura does not mean that everyone can interprete Scripture in their own way. It means that we believe the Scriptures to be the complete truth. No one can add to it. No one can subtract from it. All Church teachings and doctrine must be consistent with Scripture.
What confuses me with your statement is if that the Scripture is supposed to be the complete truth and that All Church teaching and doctrines must be consistent with the Scripture, then why are there different teachings and different versions of the bible within the same religion? Some bibles have more 'books' than others. And why is there an Old Testiment and a New Testiment? Why did man need a new version? That is what is baffling to me.
Annie, that is a really long discussion but I'll try to give a short explanation. First, not all Churches agre with sola Scriptura. It's a product of the reformation. Catholics and Orthodox reject it and some Protestants don't follow it. As far as the books of the Bible, there have been conferences among Church leaders to determine the authenticity of Scripture. The difference in the books of the Bible in different Churches reflects the difference in their belief in authenticity. | |
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| Anniemae - 2013-12-18 12:59 AM TXBO - 2013-12-17 7:11 PM angel123 - 2013-12-17 7:53 PM
ETA - this was meant to quote TXBO's question to me :)
That the Bible is a sole source of Authority, which leaves every man up for his own interpretation of it, or following the interpretation of the denomination they are already in all which disaggree on what it actually means. I do believe the Bible to be authoratative and correct (though there are bad translations), but not exhaustive. Our belief in Sola Scriptura does not mean that everyone can interprete Scripture in their own way. It means that we believe the Scriptures to be the complete truth. No one can add to it. No one can subtract from it. All Church teachings and doctrine must be consistent with Scripture.
What confuses me with your statement is if that the Scripture is supposed to be the complete truth and that All Church teaching and doctrines must be consistent with the Scripture, then why are there different teachings and different versions of the bible within the same religion? Some bibles have more 'books' than others. And why is there an Old Testiment and a New Testiment? Why did man need a new version? That is what is baffling to me.
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-difference-between-the-new-and-old-testaments-of-the-bible.htm This explains it better than I could.In short, the Old Testament focuses on the history of the Jews, while the New Testament focuses on Jesus Christ and the birth of the Christian faith. The New Testament always shows how the God of the Old Testament completed His redemptive work in the person of Jesus Christ, who died to atone for the sins of all mankind. The Bible has permeated Western culture to its very core, is a foundation of literature and of spirituality. While Jews believe the Messiah has not yet come, to Christians, the Old Testament is inextricably linked with the New. The New Testament verbalizes as a promise the Old Testament inference of a salvation free to all humans.
The older I get and the more that is revealed to me ( in other words,my understanding becomes clearer, apparently as His will allows me to understand) I'm utterly AMAZED at the intricacies of how the Old and New Testaments tie together. Seek and you shall find, as the scriptures tell us. Without seeking, studying and meditating (we should be doing this daily) on the Bible and what it has to reveal to us we will NEVER understand what it has to offer us. If we will make it our mission to allow it to be our guide and take it seriously (more seriously than we do much less important things that take up so much of our time), it will, in due time, reveal to us what we need to know when we are ready to receive the message. You'd be surprised and amazed what all is in there when you allow yourself to receive it! Sometimes we go through periods of our life where we are in the mind-set of "I don't want to hear that stuff", well, how much we miss out on the blessings and wisdom that are there for the taking by having that attitude. I would encourage everyone to accept the gifts that the Bible has to offer and, most importantly, the gift of Jesus Christ who can and will SAVE you and offer you abundant life in the here and now and eternal life hereafter!
Edited by runs4fun 2013-12-18 8:39 AM
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:38 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 5:13 PM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:55 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science?
For me, science has proven that the Earth is much, much older than the Bible says it to be. It has proven that the animals that walk the Earth now did not just appear, they changed and grew over time. That includes human kind.
Biogenesis describes the origins of life
Evolution describes the origins of new species
these two ideas are not the same, and evolution is still a widely accepted theory (as is gravity). The disproving of biogenesis has nothing to do with evolution and natural selection. | |
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 Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | TXBO - 2013-12-18 9:03 AM Anniemae - 2013-12-17 11:59 PM TXBO - 2013-12-17 7:11 PM angel123 - 2013-12-17 7:53 PM
ETA - this was meant to quote TXBO's question to me :)
That the Bible is a sole source of Authority, which leaves every man up for his own interpretation of it, or following the interpretation of the denomination they are already in all which disaggree on what it actually means. I do believe the Bible to be authoratative and correct (though there are bad translations), but not exhaustive. Our belief in Sola Scriptura does not mean that everyone can interprete Scripture in their own way. It means that we believe the Scriptures to be the complete truth. No one can add to it. No one can subtract from it. All Church teachings and doctrine must be consistent with Scripture.
What confuses me with your statement is if that the Scripture is supposed to be the complete truth and that All Church teaching and doctrines must be consistent with the Scripture, then why are there different teachings and different versions of the bible within the same religion? Some bibles have more 'books' than others. And why is there an Old Testiment and a New Testiment? Why did man need a new version? That is what is baffling to me.
Edited by Murphy 2013-12-18 8:23 AM
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Murphy - 2013-12-18 8:17 AM TXBO - 2013-12-18 9:03 AM Anniemae - 2013-12-17 11:59 PM TXBO - 2013-12-17 7:11 PM angel123 - 2013-12-17 7:53 PM
ETA - this was meant to quote TXBO's question to me :)
That the Bible is a sole source of Authority, which leaves every man up for his own interpretation of it, or following the interpretation of the denomination they are already in all which disaggree on what it actually means. I do believe the Bible to be authoratative and correct (though there are bad translations), but not exhaustive. Our belief in Sola Scriptura does not mean that everyone can interprete Scripture in their own way. It means that we believe the Scriptures to be the complete truth. No one can add to it. No one can subtract from it. All Church teachings and doctrine must be consistent with Scripture.
What confuses me with your statement is if that the Scripture is supposed to be the complete truth and that All Church teaching and doctrines must be consistent with the Scripture, then why are there different teachings and different versions of the bible within the same religion? Some bibles have more 'books' than others. And why is there an Old Testiment and a New Testiment? Why did man need a new version? That is what is baffling to me.
Murphy, I really don't know why he said that. How somebody was raised is not as important as where they are going. | |
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 Dr. Ruth
Posts: 9891
Location: Blissfully happy Giants fan!!! | mtcanchazer - 2013-12-17 10:35 PM What an interesting question. I, personally, don't have a large knowledge of science beyond biology and basic science. I was home schooled, using a Christian based learning program, so pretty much all the science I had had a Christian base with God at the core.
I don't think I can honestly say science, one way or the other, has had an impact on how or why I believe. I believe because I know I am a sinner in need of God's love and mercy and I need His Son, Jesus, to save me. I need the Bible because it shows me the path to eternal life. Perhaps the Bible has been misinterpreted over the years, but it is still here in our every day life and I think still has the same priniciples at play as the original translations. I pray because I want what is best for those I love, and I know God knows what is best for them. And I pray because I want to know what God's will and purpose is for my life, and I want that connectiong with God. Life isn't easy, and I don't think I could make it through without God or His Son or His Word. I'm lost a lot of the times (and I know I would be really lost without God), but God gives me His peace. I know I'm not one of the smartest or wisest people out there in regards to the Bible or God or any other subject, so I know I don't always understand, but everything will be revealed in God's time. LadyJockey on here, with her posts with her takes on Bible verses has inspired me greatly and give me new insight.
I don't know if anything makes me believe beyond the fact of needing to. God gives us a choice to believe or not, so I guess I choose to.
I have to agree with another poster, that I think this question is the work of God because He is being talked about!
Merry Christmas!
This. I have believed in God but did not really look to him until I moved to Texas. He called me to be a better Christian. I am not going to dive into this but I have a unique situation with going to church. But we have found a church that we truly enjoy. I will say without a doubt they have done and said some things that I 100% do not agree with but my church is only about preaching the word and everything comes from that. We dive into Scripture every wednesday for a deep discussion and on sunday it is a little lighter but still only about the Word.
I will say my preacher tells us that to be a Christian in God's eyes you need to do three things (he has a three legged stool for the analogy): read the word, fellowship with other Christians, and pray. In my mind the fellowship is why it is important to go to Church. The other two things are on your time.
I fall short on all three things. I know I do. But I say the sinners prayer all of the time and I ask God to stay beside me and lead the way. I think that is all any of us can do.
To the OP's question, I think when I really started having a relationship wtih God, I had a calling inside of me to do so. I agree wtih a lot of people in that you seek him and you trust him that he is there for you. It is called Grace. | |
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 Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | I wonder what the women Ariel Castro held captive raped and tortured for over 10 yrs believe. I see so much suffering, little children, animals...... Prayers going unanswered..... I wonder myself.
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Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | justcruzin - 2013-12-18 9:32 AM I wonder what the women Ariel Castro held captive raped and tortured for over 10 yrs believe. I see so much suffering, little children, animals...... Prayers going unanswered..... I wonder myself.
Good questions. I think about this all the time. Why do I have a bed to sleep in at night, while there are small children homeless? Or being beaten? Endless questions. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Murphy - 2013-12-18 8:39 AM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 9:32 AM I wonder what the women Ariel Castro held captive raped and tortured for over 10 yrs believe. I see so much suffering, little children, animals...... Prayers going unanswered..... I wonder myself.
Good questions. I think about this all the time. Why do I have a bed to sleep in at night, while there are small children homeless? Or being beaten? Endless questions.
This is one of many reasons I am an agnostic.
God is supposed to be all powerful, and all good. However, the earth tries to kill us in a myriad of ways.... so both of these cannot be true (in my mind) | |
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| Unfortunately, horrible things like those that happened to the girls Ariel Castro held hostage have always happened. Why? Because God did give "free-will" and all too often innocent people are the victim of the free-will of others. There is unspeakable pain and suffering on this earth, that too is true. I cannot offer an explanation of those things but I do believe that, as scripture tell us, things of this earth regardless of the years they go on are but a nano-second in the fullness of time and eternity. One day all the suffering and tears will be over each of us judged accordingly. The day will come that the meek shall inherit the earth, the last will become first. It will happen. | |
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| barrelracr131 - 2013-12-18 9:42 AM Murphy - 2013-12-18 8:39 AM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 9:32 AM I wonder what the women Ariel Castro held captive raped and tortured for over 10 yrs believe. I see so much suffering, little children, animals...... Prayers going unanswered..... I wonder myself.
Good questions. I think about this all the time. Why do I have a bed to sleep in at night, while there are small children homeless? Or being beaten? Endless questions.
God is supposed to be all powerful, and all good. However, the earth tries to kill us in a myriad of ways.... so both of these cannot be true (in my mind)
The earth has always been destined to be temporary. We are all appointed to "die" an earthly death sooner or later. It's what happens after our bodies are dead that we should concern ourselves with because death WILL come, no one is immuned to that regardless of our stature while on this earth. | |
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Wide Darn Open
Posts: 2141
| I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again. | |
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 Desert Diva
Posts: 4946
Location: The birthplace of Honest Abe | Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction.
Edited by jenijill 2013-12-18 8:59 AM
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again.
My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it? | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | What would we learn if everyone did nothing but good and we all knew nothing but joy? Our time on earth is a spiritual journey made to learn things we need to know so that we can get closer to God. God created a world of balance. There is a counter-point to everything and we have the free will to negotiate our own way through it all. | |
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Wide Darn Open
Posts: 2141
| justcruzin - 2013-12-18 9:07 AM
grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again.
My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it?
I don't know why God didn't just create earth as a perfect paradise other than if we didn't go through a spiritual journey we would be no different than angels...just created beings that do not have a relationship with Him like his children do. I was just sharing my faith and beliefs and they are what I choose to believe. I have accepted that I am not God and am not all knowing so I choose to have faith in Him and have been given great peace at times so dark I didn't think it was possible. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| barrelracr131 - 2013-12-18 8:14 AM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:38 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 5:13 PM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:55 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science?
For me, science has proven that the Earth is much, much older than the Bible says it to be. It has proven that the animals that walk the Earth now did not just appear, they changed and grew over time. That includes human kind.
Evolution describes the origins of new species
these two ideas are not the same, and evolution is still a widely accepted theory (as is gravity). The disproving of biogenesis has nothing to do with evolution and natural selection.
The law of biogenisis says that life must come from life. Evolution never gets started if it has to pass this generally accepted scientific test. There are many ways that science has disproven evolution; mathematically, law of biogenisis, enertia, genetics..... but I'm not smart enough to explain them. | |
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Everyone believes in love. PROVE that love exists. You can't. But yet we all still believe in it. Love of a mother for her child, love of a wife for her husband, our love for horses. We still believe those things exist even though we cant feel or see it and we can't prove it. And yet we still believe in love in some form without question. Why can't we do the same with God? | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | TXBO - 2013-12-18 9:31 AM barrelracr131 - 2013-12-18 8:14 AM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:38 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 5:13 PM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:55 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science?
For me, science has proven that the Earth is much, much older than the Bible says it to be. It has proven that the animals that walk the Earth now did not just appear, they changed and grew over time. That includes human kind.
Evolution describes the origins of new species
these two ideas are not the same, and evolution is still a widely accepted theory (as is gravity). The disproving of biogenesis has nothing to do with evolution and natural selection.
I found this on a google search, and it explains the theories well already, so I am copying instead of summarizing it in my own words
1. The so-called "law of biogenesis" came from the refutation of an outdated idea about the origin of life: that outdated idea is called spontaneous generation.
Spontaneous generation held that organisms - even those as complex as flies, rats, and frogs - could just spontaneously arise in a few days or weeks, and that complex life arising goes on all the time, all around us, under all kinds of conditions, throughout history. Several scientists started chipping away at that notion and Loius Pasteur drove the final nail in the coffin of spontaneous generation.
The modern view of the origin of life is abiogenesis, not spontaneous generation. In abiogensis, the first life would have been far far far far far far far far far far simpler than the simplest prokaryote alive today, would have taken possibly tens of millions of years to arise, would have arisen only once, and would have involved conditions unlike those present on today's earth. The experiments that refuted spontaneous generation don't even touch abiogenesis.
So no, the "law of biogenesis" does not refute abiogenesis.
2. It is a misnomer to speak of a scientific law of biogenesis. The closest thing to it is the part of the cell theory which states that all cells arise from preexisting cells. But then that is nothing more than an inductive conclusion: every cell we've even seen arise arose from a preexisting cell, so it is inductively concluded that that applies to all cells. But, there is no logical requirement that it apply to all cells: it's an extrapolation. There are untold numbers of similar inductive conclusions that were later proven false in science. For example, for decades biologists had not found any prokaryote that had a cytoskeleton so it was taught that no prokaryotes have a cytoskeleon: but then we found some prokaryotes that do have a cytoskeleton.
So no, one cannot prove the existence of a creator with the so-called "law of biogenesis."
PS: Besides, the Creator would be astronomically greater than the first living organism, right? So it would be more logical to accept that life just existed without a cause than it would be to accept that a Creator just existed without a cause. Calling upon a Creator does not solve anything: it just makes things worse. It replaces one mystery with an every bigger one. ETA I don't neccessarily agree with the PS, but I see the author's point they are making
Edited by barrelracr131 2013-12-18 9:48 AM
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| jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction.
A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | Pretty good answer to this question by Voddie Bauchman. He address many of the things touched on in this thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZNXMJGYNG8
Edited by CrossDRanch 2013-12-18 10:08 AM
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| grullagirl - 2013-12-18 9:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again. Very well said! Do not think for one minute that Satan is not fighting to win us over for himself. He is constantly waiting for us to give him an opening, he's always waiting to pounce. Do not give him the opportunity; he does not offer anything that is worth having.
Edited by runs4fun 2013-12-18 9:59 AM
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| barrelracr131 - 2013-12-18 9:41 AM TXBO - 2013-12-18 9:31 AM barrelracr131 - 2013-12-18 8:14 AM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:38 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 5:13 PM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:55 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science?
For me, science has proven that the Earth is much, much older than the Bible says it to be. It has proven that the animals that walk the Earth now did not just appear, they changed and grew over time. That includes human kind.
Evolution describes the origins of new species
these two ideas are not the same, and evolution is still a widely accepted theory (as is gravity). The disproving of biogenesis has nothing to do with evolution and natural selection.
I found this on a google search, and it explains the theories well already, so I am copying instead of summarizing it in my own words
1. The so-called "law of biogenesis" came from the refutation of an outdated idea about the origin of life: that outdated idea is called spontaneous generation.
Spontaneous generation held that organisms - even those as complex as flies, rats, and frogs - could just spontaneously arise in a few days or weeks, and that complex life arising goes on all the time, all around us, under all kinds of conditions, throughout history. Several scientists started chipping away at that notion and Loius Pasteur drove the final nail in the coffin of spontaneous generation.
The modern view of the origin of life is abiogenesis, not spontaneous generation. In abiogensis, the first life would have been far far far far far far far far far far simpler than the simplest prokaryote alive today, would have taken possibly tens of millions of years to arise, would have arisen only once, and would have involved conditions unlike those present on today's earth. The experiments that refuted spontaneous generation don't even touch abiogenesis.
So no, the "law of biogenesis" does not refute abiogenesis.
2. It is a misnomer to speak of a scientific law of biogenesis. The closest thing to it is the part of the cell theory which states that all cells arise from preexisting cells. But then that is nothing more than an inductive conclusion: every cell we've even seen arise arose from a preexisting cell, so it is inductively concluded that that applies to all cells. But, there is no logical requirement that it apply to all cells: it's an extrapolation. There are untold numbers of similar inductive conclusions that were later proven false in science. For example, for decades biologists had not found any prokaryote that had a cytoskeleton so it was taught that no prokaryotes have a cytoskeleon: but then we found some prokaryotes that do have a cytoskeleton.
So no, one cannot prove the existence of a creator with the so-called "law of biogenesis."
PS: Besides, the Creator would be astronomically greater than the first living organism, right? So it would be more logical to accept that life just existed without a cause than it would be to accept that a Creator just existed without a cause. Calling upon a Creator does not solve anything: it just makes things worse. It replaces one mystery with an every bigger one. ETA I don't neccessarily agree with the PS, but I see the author's point they are making
No, I'm not confused. The page you have found is someone that disputes Louis Pasteur's "law of biogenisis" as discrediting spontaneous generation. Pasteur's law of biogenisis concluded that life must come from life. He did a series of experiments to prove his theory that are generally accepted as science. | |
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Desert Diva
Posts: 4946
Location: The birthplace of Honest Abe | runs4fun - 2013-12-18 9:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
Since Satan is a christian belief, I do not believe in him. But I did not say a custom fit religion. You cant tell me that millions of people that do not follow christianity are doomed. If you follow your religion then I believe you will meet the rewards from that religion. you are strong in your conviction which is good, I am not a follower of Jesus, but I am strong in my beliefs. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| jenijill - 2013-12-18 10:20 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 9:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
It's not logical to think that every religion is right. There can only be one truth. | |
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| jenijill - 2013-12-18 11:20 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 9:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
Edited by runs4fun 2013-12-18 10:38 AM
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 Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | jenijill - 2013-12-18 10:20 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 9:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
I do believe that millions are doomed because it tells us so in the Bible
in verses like these
Mathew 7:13-14 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Mathew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
I don't believe you have to go to church or that you have to be the same religion I am to enter into heaven, but I do believe you have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and love him. That you have to confess your sins and ask him to be your savor & try very hard to be a good person & be kind to everyone.
As some have said " I would rather believe & find out I'm wrong than not believe & find out I'm wrong. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | TXBO - 2013-12-18 10:15 AM barrelracr131 - 2013-12-18 9:41 AM TXBO - 2013-12-18 9:31 AM barrelracr131 - 2013-12-18 8:14 AM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:38 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 5:13 PM TXBO - 2013-12-17 5:55 PM Just Plain Lucky - 2013-12-17 1:45 PM .....There are many things in the Bible that have been proven false by science. ....
What has been proven wrong by science?
For me, science has proven that the Earth is much, much older than the Bible says it to be. It has proven that the animals that walk the Earth now did not just appear, they changed and grew over time. That includes human kind.
Evolution describes the origins of new species
these two ideas are not the same, and evolution is still a widely accepted theory (as is gravity). The disproving of biogenesis has nothing to do with evolution and natural selection.
I found this on a google search, and it explains the theories well already, so I am copying instead of summarizing it in my own words
1. The so-called "law of biogenesis" came from the refutation of an outdated idea about the origin of life: that outdated idea is called spontaneous generation.
Spontaneous generation held that organisms - even those as complex as flies, rats, and frogs - could just spontaneously arise in a few days or weeks, and that complex life arising goes on all the time, all around us, under all kinds of conditions, throughout history. Several scientists started chipping away at that notion and Loius Pasteur drove the final nail in the coffin of spontaneous generation.
The modern view of the origin of life is abiogenesis, not spontaneous generation. In abiogensis, the first life would have been far far far far far far far far far far simpler than the simplest prokaryote alive today, would have taken possibly tens of millions of years to arise, would have arisen only once, and would have involved conditions unlike those present on today's earth. The experiments that refuted spontaneous generation don't even touch abiogenesis.
So no, the "law of biogenesis" does not refute abiogenesis.
2. It is a misnomer to speak of a scientific law of biogenesis. The closest thing to it is the part of the cell theory which states that all cells arise from preexisting cells. But then that is nothing more than an inductive conclusion: every cell we've even seen arise arose from a preexisting cell, so it is inductively concluded that that applies to all cells. But, there is no logical requirement that it apply to all cells: it's an extrapolation. There are untold numbers of similar inductive conclusions that were later proven false in science. For example, for decades biologists had not found any prokaryote that had a cytoskeleton so it was taught that no prokaryotes have a cytoskeleon: but then we found some prokaryotes that do have a cytoskeleton.
So no, one cannot prove the existence of a creator with the so-called "law of biogenesis."
PS: Besides, the Creator would be astronomically greater than the first living organism, right? So it would be more logical to accept that life just existed without a cause than it would be to accept that a Creator just existed without a cause. Calling upon a Creator does not solve anything: it just makes things worse. It replaces one mystery with an every bigger one. ETA I don't neccessarily agree with the PS, but I see the author's point they are making
We are in more agreement than you think. What I am not understanding is how this relates to evolution.
As far as I am concerned, evolution describes the process that occurs after that first life is created. There is plenty of scientific evidence to support evolution, in fact this law which you are describing supports that "life" is continously evolving from what came before.
I don't understand why many Christians religions think evolution is false. The idea of intelligent design certainly would go along with evolution (as as a child in the Catholic Church, we were taught this idea). We were told, as children, that God directed evolution, started the process of life. The story in Genesis was an allegory.
I guess I don't understand why some religions or sects take the Genesis story ONLY in its literal sense. | |
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Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | crossspur - 2013-12-18 11:41 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 10:20 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 9:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
in verses like these
Mathew 7:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Mathew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
I don't believe you have to go to church or that you have to be the same religion I am to enter into heaven, but I do believe you have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and love him. That you have to confess your sins and ask him to be your savor & try very hard to be a good person & be kind to everyone.
As some have said " I would rather believe & find out I'm wrong than not believe & find out I'm wrong.
So what about those folks that no nothing of Jesus? They are automatically doomed because they have never heard His teachings? I just don't know what to think about that. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | TXBO - 2013-12-18 10:29 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 10:20 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 9:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
See, I feel the opposite. So many religions preach very similar ideas about treating your fellow man with respect, respecting yourself, and so on. Morally, many have the same message with a different "god" figure, although they are often quite similar.
So many people in this world are so very different. Why would they not have different interpretations of a God or Creator? Why would different cultures not have the need to reach god in a different way (especially when the main messages are the same)? | |
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | Let me tell you a happy story I believe God was directly involved you can believe how ever you like. On the Today show this morning there was a story about a Blind man. He became dizzy & fell on the Subway tracks. His seeing eye dog saved his life. He has minor injuries & is in the hospital. In about a month he is going to lose his dog because he won't have the money to keep it. ( something to do insurance) a dog that not only helps him but of course he is very attached to. Anyway now because he was on TV people know this & they are raising the money for him to be able to keep the dog. Do you think the man prayed to God for help? Did God give his people the opportunity to be kind? Just something to make you go hummmm | |
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Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | I feel like SRS could help us out on here too :) | |
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| Murphy - 2013-12-18 11:43 AM crossspur - 2013-12-18 11:41 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 10:20 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 9:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
in verses like these Mathew 7:13-14 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Mathew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
I don't believe you have to go to church or that you have to be the same religion I am to enter into heaven, but I do believe you have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and love him. That you have to confess your sins and ask him to be your savor & try very hard to be a good person & be kind to everyone.
As some have said " I would rather believe & find out I'm wrong than not believe & find out I'm wrong.
Edited by runs4fun 2013-12-18 10:56 AM
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| barrelracr131 - 2013-12-18 10:42 AM We are in more agreement than you think. What I am not understanding is how this relates to evolution.
As far as I am concerned, evolution describes the process that occurs after that first life is created. There is plenty of scientific evidence to support evolution, in fact this law which you are describing supports that "life" is continously evolving from what came before.
I don't understand why many Christians religions think evolution is false. The idea of intelligent design certainly would go along with evolution (as as a child in the Catholic Church, we were taught this idea). We were told, as children, that God directed evolution, started the process of life. The story in Genesis was an allegory.
I guess I don't understand why some religions or sects take the Genesis story ONLY in its literal sense.
If you accept the law of biogenisis, evolution never begins. If you reject the notion of a creator, your better scientific argument is that creationism also fails the law of biogenisis. | |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | runs4fun - 2013-12-18 7:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
Haven't we already customized religion? No work on the Sabbath, but yet we run our horses, Divorce only because of infidelity but we divorce because we cant get along, I could go on and on. | |
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Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| Here is where I guess I stray from conventional thinking.
Just like different cultures have different languages to interpet thoughts and actions, so there must be different approach to religion to achieve spirituality. This is a religion issue and not a God issue. I think anytime a spirit seeks a higher power, the power it seeks is sophisticated enough to accept the road it took to get there.
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| barrelracr131 - 2013-12-18 10:46 AM TXBO - 2013-12-18 10:29 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 10:20 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 9:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
So many people in this world are so very different. Why would they not have different interpretations of a God or Creator? Why would different cultures not have the need to reach god in a different way (especially when the main messages are the same)?
The messages are not the same. Certainly, there are common elements of morality but salvation varies widely. | |
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | Murphy - 2013-12-18 10:43 AM crossspur - 2013-12-18 11:41 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 10:20 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 9:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
in verses like these
Mathew 7:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Mathew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
I don't believe you have to go to church or that you have to be the same religion I am to enter into heaven, but I do believe you have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and love him. That you have to confess your sins and ask him to be your savor & try very hard to be a good person & be kind to everyone.
As some have said " I would rather believe & find out I'm wrong than not believe & find out I'm wrong.
You know all we can do is guess at that, only those in heaven know the true answer and I'll be the first to admitt I not a bible scholar.
I foudn this & it does help to explain it a little but I still beleive no one here truly knows
http://carm.org/what-happens-those-who-have-never-heard-gospel
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | TXBO - 2013-12-18 10:55 AM barrelracr131 - 2013-12-18 10:42 AM We are in more agreement than you think. What I am not understanding is how this relates to evolution.
As far as I am concerned, evolution describes the process that occurs after that first life is created. There is plenty of scientific evidence to support evolution, in fact this law which you are describing supports that "life" is continously evolving from what came before.
I don't understand why many Christians religions think evolution is false. The idea of intelligent design certainly would go along with evolution (as as a child in the Catholic Church, we were taught this idea). We were told, as children, that God directed evolution, started the process of life. The story in Genesis was an allegory.
I guess I don't understand why some religions or sects take the Genesis story ONLY in its literal sense. If you accept the law of biogenisis, evolution never begins. If you reject the notion of a creator, your better scientific argument is that creationism also fails the law of biogenisis.
Thanks for shortening the quote lol
that is an interesting idea/way of looking at the theories. While I don't necessarily agree, I can understand the thinking behind the conclusion.
Interesting discussion | |
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| justcruzin - 2013-12-18 11:57 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 7:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
Edited by runs4fun 2013-12-18 11:10 AM
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | justcruzin - 2013-12-18 10:57 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 7:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
Edited by Just Bring It 2013-12-18 11:16 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | runs4fun - 2013-12-18 11:08 AM
justcruzin - 2013-12-18 11:57 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 7:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
lol.....that brings up a whole other question....What day is the Sabbath, what is work, and what does it mean to keep it holy? | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | CrossDRanch - 2013-12-18 11:14 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 11:08 AM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 11:57 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 7:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people. lol.....that brings up a whole other question....What day is the Sabbath, what is work, and what does it mean to keep it holy?
Great questions! This is something I have wondered as well. What is work? Is doing something I love and that I feel the Lord put in my heart to be work? Or is it a way that I am celebrity what the Lord has put in my life? In many ways I feel closer to Him when I am barrel racing but does that make it OK?
My husband grew up farming and they were NEVER allowed to do any kind of work on Sabbath. They were not even allowed to plow out the driveway in the winter. They spent the day reading scripture, studying the Bible, and spending time together. We all know in farming you don't "waste" a nice day because work has to get done when it has to get done but in her household his mother would not allow any work on Sabbath. She was very strict about that. Even after my husband and I were married and on our own 4 hours away and he would go up on the weekends to help her get her crop in he would have to take a day a two off work in order to get anything done because otherwise he would only be able to work Sunday. She would not allow him to do any work on Sabbath. | |
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Purveyor of unconventional wisdom
Posts: 17112
Location: CA | There can be only one creator. That being said I don't really thing it matters what you call The Creator. We do have free will, and because we don't live a clean life, and I don't mean sin free, I mean we trash our planet, we are subject to disease, and genetic break down that allows for mental chemical disturbances to be passed on in DNA.
I do believe in the power of God, and the Holiness of Christ. But unlike many Christians I accept that there are many ways to view God. Most religions are pretty much the same. Many have a virgin birth, many have a cleansing flood, many have a messiah of some kind.
I also believe that anyone that kills another human being in the name of "religion" has no faith in "their god".
I know there is a lot of war, a interesting view of how women should be treated, and other things that I don't like in the bible. So I don't follow some of what the word says, and there isn't a woman on this board that can say they do. Enter Christ, to say, hey if you mess up, its okay, I died for your sins. Do the very best you can. Does it get any better than that? lol
I know people that preach that you must obtain perfection or you don't go to heaven. Yeah I call bull**** on that one. We are here to learn and grow, growth comes from lessons, big growth comes from hard lessons. I think we are all right where we are supposed to be. It is God's plan after all....
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Total Germophobe
Posts: 6443
Location: Montana | sassy&tessa - 2013-12-18 7:31 AM mtcanchazer - 2013-12-17 10:35 PM What an interesting question. I, personally, don't have a large knowledge of science beyond biology and basic science. I was home schooled, using a Christian based learning program, so pretty much all the science I had had a Christian base with God at the core.
I don't think I can honestly say science, one way or the other, has had an impact on how or why I believe. I believe because I know I am a sinner in need of God's love and mercy and I need His Son, Jesus, to save me. I need the Bible because it shows me the path to eternal life. Perhaps the Bible has been misinterpreted over the years, but it is still here in our every day life and I think still has the same priniciples at play as the original translations. I pray because I want what is best for those I love, and I know God knows what is best for them. And I pray because I want to know what God's will and purpose is for my life, and I want that connectiong with God. Life isn't easy, and I don't think I could make it through without God or His Son or His Word. I'm lost a lot of the times (and I know I would be really lost without God), but God gives me His peace. I know I'm not one of the smartest or wisest people out there in regards to the Bible or God or any other subject, so I know I don't always understand, but everything will be revealed in God's time. LadyJockey on here, with her posts with her takes on Bible verses has inspired me greatly and give me new insight.
I don't know if anything makes me believe beyond the fact of needing to. God gives us a choice to believe or not, so I guess I choose to.
I have to agree with another poster, that I think this question is the work of God because He is being talked about!
Merry Christmas!
I will say my preacher tells us that to be a Christian in God's eyes you need to do three things (he has a three legged stool for the analogy): read the word, fellowship with other Christians, and pray. In my mind the fellowship is why it is important to go to Church. The other two things are on your time.
I fall short on all three things. I know I do. But I say the sinners prayer all of the time and I ask God to stay beside me and lead the way. I think that is all any of us can do.
To the OP's question, I think when I really started having a relationship wtih God, I had a calling inside of me to do so. I agree wtih a lot of people in that you seek him and you trust him that he is there for you. It is called Grace.
I agree with your views about church. I may not always agree with what is said, but I know the people there are just like me, sinners in search of God's way, and they are like a family. All those three things your pastor said are very true. Only one thing I would add is that we have to live the Word too.
This discussion is so great, it is so interesting reading the viewpoints of other's. | |
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Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| This thread is a manifestation of God. One thing led to another in the poster's mind and heart that propelled her to ask the question and now thousands of people are reading these words as we all, in our own way share our interpetations and each of us, are sparking "God" within the heart of a reader who might connect to that special something someone here says.
Merry Christmas and thank you OP for making me feel the spirit this morning. 've been struggling with it. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1343
Location: East Texas | Religion is man’s search for God. Christianity is God’s search for man. I believe that the Bible was written by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the words that were written and therefore, it is entirely true. It is God’s love letters to us and a guide He has given to help us find the answers to life’s problems, but much more, to tell us how much He loves us, that He has a plan for each one of us, and that by believing in his precious Son, Jesus, we can live for eternity with Him. I also believe that He left us a commission… to go and tell others about His salvation plan and that one day He will return to take His children home with him. All of this is based on a personal relationship with Jesus and it is something that I just have faith that it is true. We exhibit faith every day. I got up this morning, came to work and sat down in my chair. I didn’t pick up my chair and look underneath it; examining it to see if it was structurally sound to sit in… I just plopped myself down and had faith that it was going to hold me up. If I can have faith in chair, I can certainly have faith in the One who loves me so much that he sent his Son to die for my sins (and your sins, too!). Believe me… God loves you and wants to have a relationship with you -- He really does!! | |
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Purveyor of unconventional wisdom
Posts: 17112
Location: CA | RidenFly - 2013-12-18 11:33 AM This thread is a manifestation of God. One thing led to another in the poster's mind and heart that propelled her to ask the question and now thousands of people are reading these words as we all, in our own way share our interpetations and each of us, are sparking "God" within the heart of a reader who might connect to that special something someone here says.
Merry Christmas and thank you OP for making me feel the spirit this morning. 've been struggling with it.
This is how I "got there". :) | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | This is an easy question for me...I became a true believer when I had an out of body experience. | |
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | CrossDRanch - 2013-12-18 11:14 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 11:08 AM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 11:57 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 7:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people. lol.....that brings up a whole other question....What day is the Sabbath, what is work, and what does it mean to keep it holy?
In the old testament of the Bible the Sabbath was on Saturday, but the resurrection of Christ changed it to Sunday. The crucifixion & resurrection changed many things, such as having to do sacrifices. The verse above tells you no work, while going to a barrel race maybe fun and restful for you, it would be work for your horse. A lot of people say my horse has to earn it's own way. So you might say if you would have your horse even if you didn't barrel race then maybe you could say it was just barrel racing for fun, but if you would sale your horse if you quit barrel racing then racing is it's job | |
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Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | RidenFly - 2013-12-18 12:33 PM This thread is a manifestation of God. One thing led to another in the poster's mind and heart that propelled her to ask the question and now thousands of people are reading these words as we all, in our own way share our interpetations and each of us, are sparking "God" within the heart of a reader who might connect to that special something someone here says.
Merry Christmas and thank you OP for making me feel the spirit this morning. 've been struggling with it.
I struggle too. Every day. I judge people, I cuss, I drink, and probably a lot of other things. But I know my faults and I try to ask for forgiveness for them and to try to be a better person. This thread is helpful. I try hard to realize that no one is perfect and it's a journey every day. I hope God understands that we are all trying to be better people. | |
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| CrossDRanch - 2013-12-18 12:14 PM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 11:08 AM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 11:57 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 7:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people. lol.....that brings up a whole other question....What day is the Sabbath, what is work, and what does it mean to keep it holy?
I certainly acknowledge that one person's Sabbath could be our Saturday and another's would be Sunday according to the denomination you are talking about. I consider Sunday as Sabbath. That is the day the church that I go to assembles as a congregation, it is a day that after church, my family uses as a day of rest and to spend time with each other without the distractions of the world. I'm coming to recognize it, not only as a day of reverence to the Lord, but as a gift that was given to us as a day to rest, spend time with each and get ready for the next 6 days of "stuff". It's turned into a real blessing for us to use it as such. | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | RidenFly - 2013-12-18 11:33 AM This thread is a manifestation of God. One thing led to another in the poster's mind and heart that propelled her to ask the question and now thousands of people are reading these words as we all, in our own way share our interpetations and each of us, are sparking "God" within the heart of a reader who might connect to that special something someone here says.
Merry Christmas and thank you OP for making me feel the spirit this morning. 've been struggling with it.
Amen! I too have been struggling with some things lately. This post has helped me feel closer to Him once again. | |
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Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| Murphy - 2013-12-19 9:38 AM RidenFly - 2013-12-18 12:33 PM This thread is a manifestation of God. One thing led to another in the poster's mind and heart that propelled her to ask the question and now thousands of people are reading these words as we all, in our own way share our interpetations and each of us, are sparking "God" within the heart of a reader who might connect to that special something someone here says.
Merry Christmas and thank you OP for making me feel the spirit this morning. 've been struggling with it.
If I didn't cuss and drink, I wouldn't know myself! However, I think I balance it out with good things. I hope. | |
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Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | RidenFly - 2013-12-18 12:41 PM Murphy - 2013-12-19 9:38 AM RidenFly - 2013-12-18 12:33 PM This thread is a manifestation of God. One thing led to another in the poster's mind and heart that propelled her to ask the question and now thousands of people are reading these words as we all, in our own way share our interpetations and each of us, are sparking "God" within the heart of a reader who might connect to that special something someone here says.
Merry Christmas and thank you OP for making me feel the spirit this morning. 've been struggling with it.
Haha, I know what you mean!
I should ease up on my cussing... just for the sake of my husband who hates it. As far as the drinking... I work for a liquor company, so I'd love to see what the Bible says about drinking. I've never looked into that before. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | I find this thread interesting. I think it's a good thing when people can discuss their personal beliefs (even when they couldn't be more different) in an open and non-judgemental way. | |
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| Murphy - 2013-12-18 12:38 PM RidenFly - 2013-12-18 12:33 PM This thread is a manifestation of God. One thing led to another in the poster's mind and heart that propelled her to ask the question and now thousands of people are reading these words as we all, in our own way share our interpetations and each of us, are sparking "God" within the heart of a reader who might connect to that special something someone here says.
Merry Christmas and thank you OP for making me feel the spirit this morning. 've been struggling with it.
Edited by runs4fun 2013-12-18 11:51 AM
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | crossspur - 2013-12-18 9:37 AM CrossDRanch - 2013-12-18 11:14 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 11:08 AM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 11:57 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 7:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people. lol.....that brings up a whole other question....What day is the Sabbath, what is work, and what does it mean to keep it holy? In the old testament of the Bible the Sabbath was on Saturday, but the resurrection of Christ changed it to Sunday. The crucifixion & resurrection changed many things, such as having to do sacrifices. The verse above tells you no work, while going to a barrel race maybe fun and restful for you, it would be work for your horse. A lot of people say my horse has to earn it's own way. So you might say if you would have your horse even if you didn't barrel race then maybe you could say it was just barrel racing for fun, but if you would sale your horse if you quit barrel racing then racing is it's job No Change Documented in the Bible In both Old and New Testament there is not a shadow of variation in the doctrine of the Sabbath. The seventh day Saturday, is the only day ever designated by the term Sabbath in the entire Bible. Not only was Jesus a perfect example in observing the weekly seventh-day Sabbath, but all His disciples followed the same pattern after Jesus had gone back to heaven. Yet no intimation of any change of the day is made. The apostle Paul, who wrote pages of counsel about lesser issues of Jewish and Gentile conflicts, had not one word to say about any controversy over the day of worship. Circumcision, foods offered to idols, and other Jewish customs were readily challenged by early Gentile Christians in the church, but the weightier matter of weekly worship never was an issue. Why? For the simple reason that no change was made from the historic seventh day of Old Testament times, and from creation itself. Had there been a switch from the Sabbath to the first day of the week, you can be sure the controversy would have been more explosive than any other to those Jewish Christians..
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath-history/how-the-sabbath-was-changed.aspx
Edited by justcruzin 2013-12-18 11:58 AM
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Desert Diva
Posts: 4946
Location: The birthplace of Honest Abe | barrelracr131 - 2013-12-18 11:44 AM I find this thread interesting. I think it's a good thing when people can discuss their personal beliefs (even when they couldn't be more different) in an open and non-judgemental way.
Im probably the only non christian posting but I agree. If everyone had acceptence it would be a greater place then it already is. I still believe that people can find their own religion wether it be christianity, jewish, muslim, and the many other religions in our world today. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 766
Location: Texas | As far as the science side of it, have you heard of Dr. Carl Baugh? He takes the bible and proves science. Not the other way around. He also has a musuem in Glen Rose Tx called Creation Evidence.
On the question of what makes me believe...
It was a choice to do so and when I made that choice the rest came alive in my heart. The bible wasn't confusing anymore and the more I read the more I understand and can believe and trust that what He said, He will do it. And because of that I have sooooo many "only God" things happen in my life along with my families'.  | |
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Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | runs4fun - 2013-12-18 12:49 PM Murphy - 2013-12-18 12:38 PM RidenFly - 2013-12-18 12:33 PM This thread is a manifestation of God. One thing led to another in the poster's mind and heart that propelled her to ask the question and now thousands of people are reading these words as we all, in our own way share our interpetations and each of us, are sparking "God" within the heart of a reader who might connect to that special something someone here says.
Merry Christmas and thank you OP for making me feel the spirit this morning. 've been struggling with it.
I do not take the Lord's name in vain. I do use certain words... some are too hardcore for me. I drink socially... mostly at tastings her at work, or a beer or two on the weekend with friends. I cannot handle getting drunk... I think that was God's way of telling me to back off!  | |
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Purveyor of unconventional wisdom
Posts: 17112
Location: CA | Nevertooold - 2013-12-18 11:36 AM This is an easy question for me...I became a true believer when I had an out of body experience.
Well that puts things in perspective now doesn't it. :) | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | crossspur - 2013-12-18 11:37 AM CrossDRanch - 2013-12-18 11:14 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 11:08 AM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 11:57 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 7:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people. lol.....that brings up a whole other question....What day is the Sabbath, what is work, and what does it mean to keep it holy? In the old testament of the Bible
the Sabbath was on Saturday, but the resurrection of Christ changed it to Sunday.
The crucifixion & resurrection changed many things, such as having to do sacrifices.
The verse above tells you no work, while going to a barrel race maybe fun and restful for you, it would be work for your horse. A lot of people say my horse has to earn it's own way. So you might say if you would have your horse even if you didn't barrel race then maybe you could say it was just barrel racing for fun, but if you would sale your horse if you quit barrel racing then racing is it's job
This is what I have trouble with. I have heard this arguement before but where exactly does the Bible say this? It is one of the Commandments and where in the Bible does it say that the holy Sabbath day has been changed from the 7th day to the 1st? I have never come across a place where it says that.
"2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Genesis 2:2-3 KJV)
"20:8 Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Exodus 20:8-11 KJV)
I have heard that it was changed to the first day because that is the day the Jesus was resurrected but that doesn't make sense either. Christ was crucified the day before Sabbath but not weekly Sabbath. He was crucified before annual Sabbath, Passover. Christ also said that the only proof that he was the Messiah was that he would be in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights. If he was crucified on Friday and rose on Sunday that would be 2 nights and 1 day. So he was crucified on Wednesday afternoon, with the burial before sunset, and the resurrection was Sabbath afternoon before sunset. When Peter, John, and Mary arrived at the tomb early Sunday morning, the resurrection had already occured. It was before sunrise because it was still dark but the tomb was already empty (John 20:1). If Christ was place in the tomb in later afternoon near sunset (Mathew 27:57), and woulr arise 72 hours later. He would therefore have arisen also on a late afternoon, near sunset, 3 days later.
So I guess I just have trouble understanding how Sunday became the new Sabbath? | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | jenijill - 2013-12-18 11:56 AM barrelracr131 - 2013-12-18 11:44 AM I find this thread interesting. I think it's a good thing when people can discuss their personal beliefs (even when they couldn't be more different) in an open and non-judgemental way. Im probably the only non christian posting but I agree. If everyone had acceptence it would be a greater place then it already is. I still believe that people can find their own religion wether it be christianity, jewish, muslim, and the many other religions in our world today.
I'm an agnostic... so we are both "non-christians" in a sense :)
One thing I have learned how to do (and enjoy) through my job, working with people from all over the world, is to listen to others and understand where they are coming from. Not only is it fascinating, but it helps bring people together.
One of the things I like most about the Christian religions is that Jesus taught one main idea: Love one another. Easy to understand, but hard to do. | |
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 Proud American Patriot
Posts: 8715
Location: Watertown, SD | "You can't know God. But you have to know Him, to know that." Fr. Thomas Hopko
To the OP's question, "What makes me believe?" Or, in my case, what keeps me believing? Different things on different days. It is, after all, a relationship. I have logic-based answers but, to be honest, at the end of the day logic and faith don't have a whole lot of overlap. So many people say that faith is such a hard thing to have. Yet, we don't often realize how much faith we use each and every day. We have faith that the bridge we're about to cross won't collapse. We have faith that the car we're driving won't blow up. We have faith that the horse we're riding won't kill us. We have faith that our heart is going to take its next beat. Faith, faith, faith. But, many struggle with faith in God, who I believe created all of those things that others put their faith in. Ya know what? I don't blame anyone for struggling! It's impossible for us to grasp "God"...to examine Him intellectually and to know His essence. Our minds are incapable of it. Some can't believe in something that they can't understand or examine. My advice to you would be this: Each and every one of us puts faith in other people. Rarely do we find God or excuse God in isolation. If you choose to put your faith in the authors of "Misquoting Jesus," so be it. Why do you have faith that what they are saying is true? What have they done to earn your faith in their words?
Regarding the "mistakes" in the Bible. "Mistakes" is an inaccurate word choice. In order to know that something is a mistake, you have to have the absolute first...the original. That can't exist b/c the Bible didn't fall from the sky in complete form, fully and soley "authored" by God. Rather, we believe that it is the product of God working in relationship with His creation, man, in an inspired form. (There's that word "relationship" again.) But, I absolutely have NO issue with stating that there are *inconsistencies* in a handful of details...none of which have an affect on the overall message but, yes, they are there. I don't worship the Bible, so I have no problem with that. It's a non-issue. If everything was cookie cutter perfect, then I would have huge issues with the Bible. Man isn't perfect and man absolutely had a huge role in the writing, copying, and translating of the writings we refer to collectively as "The Bible." The Bible has a *real* history that occurred in *real* time and the authors were *real* individuals. Each gospel or epistle of the New Testament was written to/for a specific purpose to a specific group of people. OF COURSE there are going to be different things emphasized! Goodness. Don't feel bad if you don't know the history of the writings that are referred to as "The Bible." Most Christians don't even know how it came to be. The Bible is the writings which were canonized by the Church as being the most authoritative among the MANY writings. They had been accepted as reflecting the teachings (the traditions) of the Church loooong before they were called "The New Testament." They were written in the language of the Church, not the language of the world. As such, the writings of the Church can only be understood in their fullness from within that community. Most of it is absolute foolish gibber-gabber to those who are outside of that community. For that reason, I rarely spend more than 2 seconds discussing the Bible with someone who is outside of the Christian community unless I am asked a direct question. It would be similar to discussing horses with a fish. The "opinions" of those who criticize the Bible are meaningless and have no affect on me whatsoever.
It is also true, from a Christian standpoint, that all religions contain various degrees of truth. Again, no problem. The laws of God are written on the hearts of all. All people were/are made in His image. But, we would also say that it is only within Christianity that the fullness of truth can be found. Of course, they all claim that. This is where some logic comes into play. A person has to study the history of those belief systems...and, yes, atheism is a belief system. (The bloodiest one of all, actually.) There are actual uniquenesses that exist within Christianity and set it apart from ALL other belief systems. (For this, I would suggest "Jesus Among Other Gods" by Ravi Zacharaias, who can be trusted...if you have faith in my words. ) Oh...and ensure that you are studying the *actual* belief system and not America's versions of it. Americans LOVE to reinvent religions in their own image!! (And, yes, that includes even Christianity. So beware.)
This is a great question. No other question you'll ask in your lifetime is more important than this one. As you gather information and consider things, keep in mind that if you can find all of the answers, proof and evidence...congratulations. You've just become god. There's a reason that they call it "faith." While logic, intellect and rationalism play a role, it's a very limited one. Very few like that answer, but I'd be lying if I said otherwise. We like the illusion of control. Faith comes to those who let go of it.
May God bless your journey!
Edited by srs 2013-12-18 12:23 PM
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| Murphy - 2013-12-18 12:58 PM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 12:49 PM Murphy - 2013-12-18 12:38 PM RidenFly - 2013-12-18 12:33 PM This thread is a manifestation of God. One thing led to another in the poster's mind and heart that propelled her to ask the question and now thousands of people are reading these words as we all, in our own way share our interpetations and each of us, are sparking "God" within the heart of a reader who might connect to that special something someone here says.
Merry Christmas and thank you OP for making me feel the spirit this morning. 've been struggling with it.
Well, then it sounds like you're doing pretty good! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
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| srs - 2013-12-18 1:17 PM "You can't know God. But you have to know Him, to know that." Fr. Thomas Hopko
To the OP's question, "What makes me believe?" Or, in my case, what keeps me believing? Different things on different days. It is, after all, a relationship. I have logic-based answers but, to be honest, at the end of the day logic and faith don't have a whole lot of overlap. So many people say that faith is such a hard thing to have. Yet, we don't often realize how much faith we use each and every day. We have faith that the bridge we're about to cross won't collapse. We have faith that the car we're driving won't blow up. We have faith that the horse we're riding won't kill us. We have faith that our heart is going to take its next beat. Faith, faith, faith. But, many struggle with faith in God, who I believe created all of those things that others put their faith in. Ya know what? I don't blame anyone for struggling! It's impossible for us to grasp "God"...to examine Him intellectually and to know His essence. Our minds are incapable of it. Some can't believe in something that they can't understand or examine. My advice to you would be this: Each and every one of us puts faith in other people. Rarely do we find God or excuse God in isolation. If you choose to put your faith in the authors of "Misquoting Jesus," so be it. Why do you have faith that what they are saying is true? What have they done to earn your faith in their words?
Regarding the "mistakes" in the Bible. "Mistakes" is an inaccurate word choice. In order to know that something is a mistake, you have to have the absolute first...the original. That can't exist b/c the Bible didn't fall from the sky in complete form, fully and soley "authored" by God. Rather, we believe that it is the product of God working in relationship with His creation, man, in an inspired form. (There's that word "relationship" again.) But, I absolutely have NO issue with stating that there are *inconsistencies* in a handful of details...none of which have an affect on the overall message but, yes, they are there. I don't worship the Bible, so I have no problem with that. It's a non-issue. If everything was cookie cutter perfect, then I would have huge issues with the Bible. Man isn't perfect and man absolutely had a huge role in the writing, copying, and translating of the writings we refer to collectively as "The Bible." The Bible has a *real* history that occurred in *real* time and the authors were *real* individuals. Each gospel or epistle of the New Testament was written to/for a specific purpose to a specific group of people. OF COURSE there are going to be different things emphasized! Goodness. Don't feel bad if you don't know the history of the writings that are referred to as "The Bible." Most Christians don't even know how it came to be. The Bible is the writings which were canonized by the Church as being the most authoritative among the MANY writings. They had been accepted as reflecting the teachings (the traditions) of the Church loooong before they were called "The New Testament." They were written in the language of the Church, not the language of the world. As such, the writings of the Church can only be understood in their fullness from within that community. Most of it is absolute foolish gibber-gabber to those who are outside of that community. For that reason, I rarely spend more than 2 seconds discussing the Bible with someone who is outside of the Christian community unless I am asked a direct question. It would be similar to discussing horses with a fish. The "opinions" of those who criticize the Bible are meaningless and have no affect on me whatsoever.
It is also true, from a Christian standpoint, that all religions contain various degrees of truth. Again, no problem. The laws of God are written on the hearts of all. All people were/are made in His image. But, we would also say that it is only within Christianity that the fullness of truth can be found. Of course, they all claim that. This is where some logic comes into play. A person has to study the history of those belief systems...and, yes, atheism is a belief system. (The bloodiest one of all, actually.) There are actual uniquenesses that exist within Christianity and set it apart from ALL other belief systems. (For this, I would suggest "Jesus Among Other Gods" by Ravi Zacharaias, who can be trusted...if you have faith in my words. ) Oh...and ensure that you are studying the *actual* belief system and not America's versions of it. Americans LOVE to reinvent religions in their own image!! (And, yes, that includes even Christianity. So beware.)
This is a great question. No other question you'll ask in your lifetime is more important than this one. As you gather information and consider things, keep in mind that if you can find all of the answers, proof and evidence...congratulations. You've just become god. There's a reason that they call it "faith." While logic, intellect and rationalism play a role, it's a very limited one. Very few like that answer, but I'd be lying if I said otherwise. We like the illusion of control. Faith comes to those who let go of it.
May God bless your journey! You've made some EXCELLENT points! Faith does require us relinquishing control. This is a link to an excellent video about letting go of that control mentality. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhfUzodLRvk
Edited by runs4fun 2013-12-18 12:30 PM
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | Just Bring It - 2013-12-18 12:05 PM crossspur - 2013-12-18 11:37 AM CrossDRanch - 2013-12-18 11:14 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 11:08 AM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 11:57 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 7:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people. lol.....that brings up a whole other question....What day is the Sabbath, what is work, and what does it mean to keep it holy? In the old testament of the Bible
the Sabbath was on Saturday, but the resurrection of Christ changed it to Sunday.
The crucifixion & resurrection changed many things, such as having to do sacrifices.
The verse above tells you no work, while going to a barrel race maybe fun and restful for you, it would be work for your horse. A lot of people say my horse has to earn it's own way. So you might say if you would have your horse even if you didn't barrel race then maybe you could say it was just barrel racing for fun, but if you would sale your horse if you quit barrel racing then racing is it's job
This is what I have trouble with. I have heard this arguement before but where exactly does the Bible say this? It is one of the Commandments and where in the Bible does it say that the holy Sabbath day has been changed from the 7th day to the 1st? I have never come across a place where it says that.
"2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Genesis 2:2-3 KJV)
"20:8 Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Exodus 20:8-11 KJV)
I have heard that it was changed to the first day because that is the day the Jesus was resurrected but that doesn't make sense either. Christ was crucified the day before Sabbath but not weekly Sabbath. He was crucified before annual Sabbath, Passover. Christ also said that the only proof that he was the Messiah was that he would be in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights. If he was crucified on Friday and rose on Sunday that would be 2 nights and 1 day. So he was crucified on Wednesday afternoon, with the burial before sunset, and the resurrection was Sabbath afternoon before sunset. When Peter, John, and Mary arrived at the tomb early Sunday morning, the resurrection had already occured. It was before sunrise because it was still dark but the tomb was already empty (John 20:1). If Christ was place in the tomb in later afternoon near sunset (Mathew 27:57), and woulr arise 72 hours later. He would therefore have arisen also on a late afternoon, near sunset, 3 days later.
So I guess I just have trouble understanding how Sunday became the new Sabbath?
Schaff writes in the Schaff- Herzog Encyclopedia of religious knowledge 1891 Ed., vol.4 Article on Sunday. "Sunday… was adopted by the early Christians as a day of worship.. . Sunday was emphatically the weekly feast of the resurrection of Christ, as the Jewish Sabbath was the feast of creation. It was called the Lords day, and upon it the primitive church assembled to break bread. No regulations for its observance are laid down in the new testament nor, indeed, is its observance even enjoined. Yet Christian feeling led to the universal adoption of the day, in imitation of the apostolic precedence. In the second century its observance was universal." In other words this wasn’t to replace the Sabbath but held as a whole new day for a new dispensation | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 204
| runs4fun - 2013-12-18 11:49 AM Murphy - 2013-12-18 12:38 PM RidenFly - 2013-12-18 12:33 PM This thread is a manifestation of God. One thing led to another in the poster's mind and heart that propelled her to ask the question and now thousands of people are reading these words as we all, in our own way share our interpetations and each of us, are sparking "God" within the heart of a reader who might connect to that special something someone here says.
Merry Christmas and thank you OP for making me feel the spirit this morning. 've been struggling with it.
This reminds me of an argument I had with a coworker back in college...
He ALWAYS was using the Lord's name in vein (GD, JC) and one day I finally confronted him about it and he just went crazy on me and it ignited a whole discussion on cussing (because I cuss).
In my opinion, there is cussing and there is cursing. If you were to stub your toe and yell F*$#...that would be cussing....you are not harming anyone's feelings, you are just expressing how much it hurts.
If you go up to someone and say F*$# YOU....THAT is cursing, and THAT is using those words to intentionally hurt someone. So that's where I stand on that subject.
As for believing, I'm a firm believer in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I don't think I'd be where I am with all the blessings that I have without my relationship with God. It's just unexplainable to me...how I can be having a HORRIBLE day or week but the second I read something from the Bible or hear the Word at church, everything is just lifted and I feel great! It's absolutely crazy to me the amount of times I've gone to church and that week is the EXACT topic I NEEDED to hear to know that God knows what I've been dealing with at that very moment.
No other word to describe it than AMAZING! | |
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | Bottom line is The Lord wants us to love him, love each other and be kind.
The rest we have to muddle through and do our best with. Each of us will read the Bible different & get a different understanding from it.
I can write the sky is blue and some will take it as it's blue in color, some will take it a different way.
Every person you listen to will teach you a little different, every church you go to will believe a little different.
God doesn't expect us to be perfect in fact far from it, he just ask for your love & that we be kind to each other. Remember God made us all | |
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Proud American Patriot
Posts: 8715
Location: Watertown, SD | "Schaff writes in the Schaff- Herzog Encyclopedia of religious knowledge 1891 Ed., vol.4 Article on Sunday. "Sunday… was adopted by the early Christians as a day of worship.. . Sunday was emphatically the weekly feast of the resurrection of Christ, as the Jewish Sabbath was the feast of creation. It was called the Lords day, and upon it the primitive church assembled to break bread. No regulations for its observance are laid down in the new testament nor, indeed, is its observance even enjoined. Yet Christian feeling led to the universal adoption of the day, in imitation of the apostolic precedence. In the second century its observance was universal." In other words this wasn’t to replace the Sabbath but held as a whole new day for a new dispensation" crosspur Other than the choice of the word "primitive" used to describe the Church, this is historically accurate. The Church took on a highly organized form very quickly. Christians didn't at all worry that Sunday wasn't designated in the NT because, well, the "New Testament" didn't yet exist as such. That came later. Authority comes from within the Church, not only from her writings. Early worship was patterned after OT worship; which makes sense since these were the traditions that they had been raised in. But they certainly did things that were distinct because of the Eucharistic role fulfilled by Christ. Their understanding and level of inspiration was nothing short of miraculous. You just can't make this stuff up. Christians worship on Sunday...and we do it for good reason.
Edited by srs 2013-12-18 12:52 PM
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | crossspur - 2013-12-18 12:39 PM Just Bring It - 2013-12-18 12:05 PM crossspur - 2013-12-18 11:37 AM CrossDRanch - 2013-12-18 11:14 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 11:08 AM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 11:57 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 7:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people. lol.....that brings up a whole other question....What day is the Sabbath, what is work, and what does it mean to keep it holy? In the old testament of the Bible
the Sabbath was on Saturday, but the resurrection of Christ changed it to Sunday.
The crucifixion & resurrection changed many things, such as having to do sacrifices.
The verse above tells you no work, while going to a barrel race maybe fun and restful for you, it would be work for your horse. A lot of people say my horse has to earn it's own way. So you might say if you would have your horse even if you didn't barrel race then maybe you could say it was just barrel racing for fun, but if you would sale your horse if you quit barrel racing then racing is it's job
This is what I have trouble with. I have heard this arguement before but where exactly does the Bible say this? It is one of the Commandments and where in the Bible does it say that the holy Sabbath day has been changed from the 7th day to the 1st? I have never come across a place where it says that.
"2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Genesis 2:2-3 KJV)
"20:8 Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Exodus 20:8-11 KJV)
I have heard that it was changed to the first day because that is the day the Jesus was resurrected but that doesn't make sense either. Christ was crucified the day before Sabbath but not weekly Sabbath. He was crucified before annual Sabbath, Passover. Christ also said that the only proof that he was the Messiah was that he would be in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights. If he was crucified on Friday and rose on Sunday that would be 2 nights and 1 day. So he was crucified on Wednesday afternoon, with the burial before sunset, and the resurrection was Sabbath afternoon before sunset. When Peter, John, and Mary arrived at the tomb early Sunday morning, the resurrection had already occured. It was before sunrise because it was still dark but the tomb was already empty (John 20:1). If Christ was place in the tomb in later afternoon near sunset (Mathew 27:57), and woulr arise 72 hours later. He would therefore have arisen also on a late afternoon, near sunset, 3 days later.
So I guess I just have trouble understanding how Sunday became the new Sabbath?Schaff writes in the Schaff- Herzog Encyclopedia of religious knowledge 1891 Ed., vol.4 Article on Sunday. "Sunday… was adopted by the early Christians as a day of worship.. . Sunday was emphatically the weekly feast of the resurrection of Christ, as the Jewish Sabbath was the feast of creation. It was called the Lords day, and upon it the primitive church assembled to break bread. No regulations for its observance are laid down in the new testament nor, indeed, is its observance even enjoined. Yet Christian feeling led to the universal adoption of the day, in imitation of the apostolic precedence. In the second century its observance was universal." In other words this wasn’t to replace the Sabbath but held as a whole new day for a new dispensation
But are we then taking what man decided to be best for us over what God had commanded? This is where I feel religion picks and choose what it wants to believe. It customizes it to fit what it wants. Many religions do not preach the Bible, the Word of God.
This is copied from keyway.ca...This site does a very good job of explaining some questions I have had. The author is not of any church organizatin and bases his beliefs solely on the Word of God. "Sunday worship did not originate in the Bible, or in the reality of the events of the crucifixion and resurrection. All of the first Christians, including Peter, Paul, all of the apostles, Mary and Joseph, all of the people who wrote the Bible, and Jesus Christ Himself were seventh-day Sabbath keepers. All of them. So, where did Sunday worship come from? Gradually, the Roman empire that persecuted Christians began to adopt Christianity, or rather, its own self-serving version of Christianity, which was a blend of politics and religion, a little truth, but mostly outright Roman paganism - which included worship of the Roman sun god. Sunday worship came about as a pagan corruption of God's holy seventh-day Sabbath. By the fourth century, only Jews (by then, God's Sabbath was becoming known as the "Jewish" Sabbath), and a relatively few true Christians, continued to observe the seventh-day Sabbath as God commanded everyone. There is only one true God, and one true Sabbath. In 321, the Roman emperor Constantine issued an edict which outlawed work on the "venerable day of the sun," Sunday, and within 3 years the corrupted version of Christianity had become the official religion of the Roman empire. From that, the Roman Catholic Church, and its many Protestant daughter churches, got the commonly-accepted Sunday observance of today - utterly pagan in origin, and completely contrary to God's command. Traditions of men cannot save you. Only the Truth, and genuine obedience to it, is the way to salvation. If you didn't know the truth about Sunday before, now you do. And God knows that you do."
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Proud American Patriot
Posts: 8715
Location: Watertown, SD | Just Bring It, if you'd be interested in understanding more about early church woship history, I'd suggest two sources:
"The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware
"The Apostolic Fathers" Michael W. Holmes. This is a Greek text-inclusive compilation of writings from the *same time frame* as those found in the New Testament. For example, The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache. They witness to the worship and beliefs of the Early Church. It's thanks to them that we know that most of the writings included in the NT were already widely distributed as reflecting Christian traditions. Honestly, I don't know how anyone who seeks truth can ignore these, written by the earliest bishops and those who directly walked with and learned from the Apostles, once they learn that they exist and are right there for anyone to read. What they contain will surprise a whole lot of people within the Christian community...and will explain by a lot of "churches" would prefer to keep them under the table.
ETA: This is a quote from the Greek Orthodox website. Good, bad or indifferent (being an Orthodox Christian, I would say it is good), this is the single most unchanged Church in Christianity. And, yes, that includes not only Roman Catholics but also all of the protestant churches that have splintered from the RCC at and following the Reformation. The actual history, the records of all sorts, the practices...all of it...2,000 years of it can be found within the Orthodox Church. As such, it is a reliable source of historical information for *anyone.* Sunday has been recognized as the day of worship has sound Christological reasons and it has been practiced since the FIRST century. That is a fact. Yes, that took awhile. Not long, really. But it's true that it took awhile. Again, for an Orthodox Christian, this is no big deal. I find it so interesting how folks will accept all sorts of modern changes, additions and subtractions but reject the ancient, established practices, understandings and interpretations that have loooooooooooong been the pracitice of the Christian Church. Sunday worship predates the New Testament. Do those who worship on Saturday reject that also? Interestingly, no. These are things that cause me to scratch my head...not in a mean way, but in a confused way.
The most important day for the Christian community was and continues to be the First day of the Jewish week. For the people of the Old Covenant the First Day was a memorial of the first day of creation, when God separated the light from the darkness. For the people of the New Covenant the first day includes this and much more. The first was the day when the empty tomb was first discovered and the risen Lord made His first appearances to His followers. The first was the day of the Resurrection ofChrist and the beginning of the new creation brought about by His victory over death. By the end of the first century the Church gave to this special day of Christ's resurrection a distinctly Christian name: the Lord's Day (Kyriake hemera) (Rev. 1: 10).
The Lord's Day (Sunday) is a Christian institution.
Edited by srs 2013-12-18 1:55 PM
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | srs - 2013-12-18 1:28 PM Just Bring It, if you'd be interested in understanding more about early church woship history, I'd suggest two sources:
"The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware
"The Apostolic Fathers" Michael W. Holmes. This is a Greek text-inclusive compilation of writings from the *same time frame* as those found in the New Testament. For example, The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache. They witness to the worship and beliefs of the Early Church. It's thanks to them that we know that most of the writings included in the NT were already widely distributed as reflecting Christian traditions. Honestly, I don't know how anyone who seeks truth can ignore these, written by the earliest bishops and those who directly walked with and learned from the Apostles, once they learn that they exist and are right there for anyone to read. What they contain will surprise a whole lot of people within the Christian community...and will explain by a lot of "churches" would prefer to keep them under the table.
ETA: This is a quote from the Greek Orthodox website. Good, bad or indifferent (being an Orthodox Christian, I would say it is good), this is the single most unchanged Church in Christianity. And, yes, that includes not only Roman Catholics but also all of the protestant churches that have splintered from the RCC at and following the Reformation. The actual history, the records of all sorts, the practices...all of it...2,000 years of it can be found within the Orthodox Church. As such, it is a reliable source of historical information for *anyone.* Sunday has been recognized as the day of worship has sound Christological reasons and it has been practiced since the FIRST century. That is a fact. Yes, that took awhile. Not long, really. But it's true that it took awhile. Again, for an Orthodox Christian, this is no big deal. I find it so interesting how folks will accept all sorts of modern changes, additions and subtractions but reject the ancient, established practices, understandings and interpretations that have loooooooooooong been the pracitice of the Christian Church. Sunday worship predates the New Testament. Do those who worship on Saturday reject that also? Interestingly, no. These are things that cause me to scratch my head...not in a mean way, but in a confused way.
The most important day for the Christian community was and continues to be the First day of the Jewish week. For the people of the Old Covenant the First Day was a memorial of the first day of creation, when God separated the light from the darkness. For the people of the New Covenant the first day includes this and much more. The first was the day when the empty tomb was first discovered and the risen Lord made His first appearances to His followers. The first was the day of the Resurrection ofChrist and the beginning of the new creation brought about by His victory over death. By the end of the first century the Church gave to this special day of Christ's resurrection a distinctly Christian name: the Lord's Day (Kyriake hemera) (Rev. 1: 10).
The Lord's Day (Sunday) is a Christian institution.
Thanks for that quote. I was just going to ask for a little summary or quote of what those books say since I am curious and cannot get the books right at the moment...lol. That helps bring a little better understanding to Sunday worship. It is definitely a topic I want to learn more about and study. It is interesting to say the least. | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | I just came across this article and it does a pretty good job of explaining the time frame of when Christ rose. http://rcg.org/books/crwnos.html
Like I said it is something I definitely want to look into more. To me even if Sunday worship was put into place to celebrate the Lord's day it does not change the 4th Commandment made by God. So even if people do want to worship on Sunday to celebrate the resurrection (though I have my doubts that that was on Sunday) should they not also keep the Sabbath day as commanded by God which is the 7th day? | |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | Just Bring It - 2013-12-18 12:04 PM srs - 2013-12-18 1:28 PM Just Bring It, if you'd be interested in understanding more about early church woship history, I'd suggest two sources:
"The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware
"The Apostolic Fathers" Michael W. Holmes. This is a Greek text-inclusive compilation of writings from the *same time frame* as those found in the New Testament. For example, The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache. They witness to the worship and beliefs of the Early Church. It's thanks to them that we know that most of the writings included in the NT were already widely distributed as reflecting Christian traditions. Honestly, I don't know how anyone who seeks truth can ignore these, written by the earliest bishops and those who directly walked with and learned from the Apostles, once they learn that they exist and are right there for anyone to read. What they contain will surprise a whole lot of people within the Christian community...and will explain by a lot of "churches" would prefer to keep them under the table.
ETA: This is a quote from the Greek Orthodox website. Good, bad or indifferent (being an Orthodox Christian, I would say it is good), this is the single most unchanged Church in Christianity. And, yes, that includes not only Roman Catholics but also all of the protestant churches that have splintered from the RCC at and following the Reformation. The actual history, the records of all sorts, the practices...all of it...2,000 years of it can be found within the Orthodox Church. As such, it is a reliable source of historical information for *anyone.* Sunday has been recognized as the day of worship has sound Christological reasons and it has been practiced since the FIRST century. That is a fact. Yes, that took awhile. Not long, really. But it's true that it took awhile. Again, for an Orthodox Christian, this is no big deal. I find it so interesting how folks will accept all sorts of modern changes, additions and subtractions but reject the ancient, established practices, understandings and interpretations that have loooooooooooong been the pracitice of the Christian Church. Sunday worship predates the New Testament. Do those who worship on Saturday reject that also? Interestingly, no. These are things that cause me to scratch my head...not in a mean way, but in a confused way.
The most important day for the Christian community was and continues to be the First day of the Jewish week. For the people of the Old Covenant the First Day was a memorial of the first day of creation, when God separated the light from the darkness. For the people of the New Covenant the first day includes this and much more. The first was the day when the empty tomb was first discovered and the risen Lord made His first appearances to His followers. The first was the day of the Resurrection ofChrist and the beginning of the new creation brought about by His victory over death. By the end of the first century the Church gave to this special day of Christ's resurrection a distinctly Christian name: the Lord's Day (Kyriake hemera) (Rev. 1: 10).
The Lord's Day (Sunday) is a Christian institution. Thanks for that quote. I was just going to ask for a little summary or quote of what those books say since I am curious and cannot get the books right at the moment...lol. That helps bring a little better understanding to Sunday worship. It is definitely a topic I want to learn more about and study. It is interesting to say the least.
So Christians changed the Sabbath? I guess I dont understand, "For I testify unto everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, and from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 7:31 PM
That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you. But then I'd start to think and I feel on the other hand there are people who really need that looming idea of a greater punishment to stay fairly well on the straight and narrow (not implying you do but the general population as a whole). I don't know. This topic interests me a lot. Religion fascinates me, which is weird because I don't believe in it haha.
Some people do need that looming over them. Religion is simple and if everyone plays along, nobody has to face the tough questions. Anyone who has read the bible front to back and doesn't have some serious questions either can't read for comprehension, or simply willfully suspends their disbelief. My morals come from treating others the way I want to be treated. It couldn't be any simpler than that. Frankly, those that require the threat of eternal torture to keep them in check share the **** out of me. Of course, prisons are full of repenters... | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | I found another interesting article about the Lord's Day. http://www.sabbathtruth.com/faq/advanced-topics/what-about-the-lords-day.aspx
I love these types of topics. It makes me study and remember why I believe what I believe and it brings me closer to Him. I also love learning new things on why others believe what they do. History is so interesting to me. | |
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 Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | I think the fact that you are on here asking and really interested is that the holy spirit is working on your heart. If you haven't seen Billy Grahams message, you need to. It's only 30 minutes long with 2 personal stories sounding similar to you. It is awesome to see how forgiving and loving God truly is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bba2Dqaw6SI | |
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS |
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 Cyber World Challenged
Posts: 2526
Location: My Own Little World | ok, I have in no way read all the posts on here, but here's my 2 cents. First off, humans made "religion" not God. Without God, there would be no morals because humans are born very selfish. And I do not believe there are mistakes in the Bible at all. Either God is who He says He is, or He's a liar.
Science DOES prove the Bible all the time. Please look athttp://www.icr.org/ for a scientific view. There are many articles there. There's also a book I really like called "The Case For Christ".
I don't belong to any "religion", I am a follower of Jesus Christ. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | justcruzin - 2013-12-18 6:07 PM
grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again.
My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus (a greek philosopher who died 200 years before Jesus was born) | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 3:06 PM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 6:07 PM grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again.
My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus (a greek philosopher who died 200 years before Jesus was born )
This may help explain some of your questions. https://bible.org/seriespage/why-there-evil-and-suffering | |
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| Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 4:06 PM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 6:07 PM grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again.
My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus (a greek philosopher who died 200 years before Jesus was born )
In due time, HE will overcome evil. See the book of Revelations. The Bible is very clear about the fact that there will be tribulations here on earth, never once do the scriptures say there won't be. Most of the time we see scriptures quoted as a stand-alone verse but when you read them in the context of the entire book or chapter they are contained in they say something a little differently. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 142
| justcruzin - 2013-12-18 2:36 PM
Just Bring It - 2013-12-18 12:04 PM srs - 2013-12-18 1:28 PM Just Bring It, if you'd be interested in understanding more about early church woship history, I'd suggest two sources:
"The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware
"The Apostolic Fathers" Michael W. Holmes. This is a Greek text-inclusive compilation of writings from the *same time frame* as those found in the New Testament. For example, The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache. They witness to the worship and beliefs of the Early Church. It's thanks to them that we know that most of the writings included in the NT were already widely distributed as reflecting Christian traditions. Honestly, I don't know how anyone who seeks truth can ignore these, written by the earliest bishops and those who directly walked with and learned from the Apostles, once they learn that they exist and are right there for anyone to read. What they contain will surprise a whole lot of people within the Christian community...and will explain by a lot of "churches" would prefer to keep them under the table.
ETA: This is a quote from the Greek Orthodox website. Good, bad or indifferent (being an Orthodox Christian, I would say it is good), this is the single most unchanged Church in Christianity. And, yes, that includes not only Roman Catholics but also all of the protestant churches that have splintered from the RCC at and following the Reformation. The actual history, the records of all sorts, the practices...all of it...2,000 years of it can be found within the Orthodox Church. As such, it is a reliable source of historical information for *anyone.* Sunday has been recognized as the day of worship has sound Christological reasons and it has been practiced since the FIRST century. That is a fact. Yes, that took awhile. Not long, really. But it's true that it took awhile. Again, for an Orthodox Christian, this is no big deal. I find it so interesting how folks will accept all sorts of modern changes, additions and subtractions but reject the ancient, established practices, understandings and interpretations that have loooooooooooong been the pracitice of the Christian Church. Sunday worship predates the New Testament. Do those who worship on Saturday reject that also? Interestingly, no. These are things that cause me to scratch my head...not in a mean way, but in a confused way.
The most important day for the Christian community was and continues to be the First day of the Jewish week. For the people of the Old Covenant the First Day was a memorial of the first day of creation, when God separated the light from the darkness. For the people of the New Covenant the first day includes this and much more. The first was the day when the empty tomb was first discovered and the risen Lord made His first appearances to His followers. The first was the day of the Resurrection ofChrist and the beginning of the new creation brought about by His victory over death. By the end of the first century the Church gave to this special day of Christ's resurrection a distinctly Christian name: the Lord's Day (Kyriake hemera) (Rev. 1: 10).
The Lord's Day (Sunday) is a Christian institution. Thanks for that quote. I was just going to ask for a little summary or quote of what those books say since I am curious and cannot get the books right at the moment...lol. That helps bring a little better understanding to Sunday worship. It is definitely a topic I want to learn more about and study. It is interesting to say the least.
Saturday is still the sabbath for orthodox and Sunday is the lords day. Funny the quote you stated was from the book of revelation ....which starts out stating that that the author was "in the spirit on the lords day" rev. 1:10. The visions he is describing is basically the Sunday lithurgy. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| justcruzin - 2013-12-18 2:36 PM So Christians changed the Sabbath? I guess I dont understand, "For I testify unto everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, and from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
~~“Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. (Col. 2:16-17 ESV) | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | angel123 - 2013-12-18 3:19 PM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 2:36 PM Just Bring It - 2013-12-18 12:04 PM srs - 2013-12-18 1:28 PM Just Bring It, if you'd be interested in understanding more about early church woship history, I'd suggest two sources:
"The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware
"The Apostolic Fathers" Michael W. Holmes. This is a Greek text-inclusive compilation of writings from the *same time frame* as those found in the New Testament. For example, The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache. They witness to the worship and beliefs of the Early Church. It's thanks to them that we know that most of the writings included in the NT were already widely distributed as reflecting Christian traditions. Honestly, I don't know how anyone who seeks truth can ignore these, written by the earliest bishops and those who directly walked with and learned from the Apostles, once they learn that they exist and are right there for anyone to read. What they contain will surprise a whole lot of people within the Christian community...and will explain by a lot of "churches" would prefer to keep them under the table.
ETA: This is a quote from the Greek Orthodox website. Good, bad or indifferent (being an Orthodox Christian, I would say it is good), this is the single most unchanged Church in Christianity. And, yes, that includes not only Roman Catholics but also all of the protestant churches that have splintered from the RCC at and following the Reformation. The actual history, the records of all sorts, the practices...all of it...2,000 years of it can be found within the Orthodox Church. As such, it is a reliable source of historical information for *anyone.* Sunday has been recognized as the day of worship has sound Christological reasons and it has been practiced since the FIRST century. That is a fact. Yes, that took awhile. Not long, really. But it's true that it took awhile. Again, for an Orthodox Christian, this is no big deal. I find it so interesting how folks will accept all sorts of modern changes, additions and subtractions but reject the ancient, established practices, understandings and interpretations that have loooooooooooong been the pracitice of the Christian Church. Sunday worship predates the New Testament. Do those who worship on Saturday reject that also? Interestingly, no. These are things that cause me to scratch my head...not in a mean way, but in a confused way.
The most important day for the Christian community was and continues to be the First day of the Jewish week. For the people of the Old Covenant the First Day was a memorial of the first day of creation, when God separated the light from the darkness. For the people of the New Covenant the first day includes this and much more. The first was the day when the empty tomb was first discovered and the risen Lord made His first appearances to His followers. The first was the day of the Resurrection ofChrist and the beginning of the new creation brought about by His victory over death. By the end of the first century the Church gave to this special day of Christ's resurrection a distinctly Christian name: the Lord's Day (Kyriake hemera) (Rev. 1: 10).
The Lord's Day (Sunday) is a Christian institution. Thanks for that quote. I was just going to ask for a little summary or quote of what those books say since I am curious and cannot get the books right at the moment...lol. That helps bring a little better understanding to Sunday worship. It is definitely a topic I want to learn more about and study. It is interesting to say the least. Saturday is still the sabbath for orthodox and Sunday is the lords day. Funny the quote you stated was from the book of revelation ....which starts out stating that that the author was " in the spirit on the lords day" rev. 1:10. The visions he is describing is basically the Sunday lithurgy.
If you read through the articles I posted about the Lord's Day they explain which day is the Lord's Day. Fromhttp://rcg.org/books/crwnos.html
There is another very important reason why theologians and many others must conclude that the resurrection was on Sunday! Sunday is commonly referred to as “the Lord’s Day.” While the true Lord’s Day of the Bible is actually the Day of the Lord—the day of his wrath (Joel 2:1-11; Rev. 1:10; 15:1, 7)—the term “the Lord’s Day” has come to be synonymous with Sunday. But why? The reason is simple. If Sunday can be established as the day that Christ was resurrected, it can be a means of validating and “authorizing” the keeping of Sunday by the churches of the world, in place of God’s true Sabbath. You have already seen references to the Sabbath day in this booklet. Exodus 20:8-11 shows that the keeping of the Sabbath is the Fourth Commandment! It was always the seventh day of the week and God never authorized Sunday—which would be keeping the first day instead. God hallowed it at creation—long before there were any Jews or Israelites to keep it (Gen. 2:1). The Sabbath was to be kept “forever”—“continually”—and “throughout the generations” of Israel, God’s intended model nation (Ex. 31:12-17). Christ kept it (Luke 4:16) and said that He was Lord of it and that it was “made for man” (Mark 2:27-28). He did not say it was “made for the Jews only.” Paul observed it (Acts 13:42, 44; 17:2; 18:4). The subject of keeping the Sabbath as God’s command for true Christians is a big subject requiring its own book to explain it. Therefore, more than the Good Friday-Easter Sunday tradition collapses if Christ was in the grave for 72 hours instead of 36. The largest single reason for the unscriptural tradition (recall Mark 7:7) of Sunday-keeping collapses at the same time. God has always said, “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy” (Ex. 20:8). He has never said, “Remember Sunday to keep it holy—and just call it the Lord’s day!” The reader is left to ponder this. (Request our free book Saturday or Sunday – Which Is the Sabbath? for absolute proof of which day is the Christian Sabbath.)
This is an excerpt from sabbathturth.com
I know there are those who say it doesn’t make any difference which day you keep, so long as you keep one day in seven. Ever hear anyone talk like that? Does it make a difference? Is any day acceptable to God? Let’s turn to the Book, to the Bible in your hand, and see what we discover. We shall read three simple, clear statements. First will you turn to Revelations 1:10. “I was in the spirit on the Lord’s day and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.”
Evidently the Lord has a day. But which day is it? “For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.” Matthew 12:8. There must be something different about the Sabbath. Through the prophet Isaiah God speaks of the Sabbath and calls it plainly “my holy day.” Isaiah 58:13. And no where in Scripture does He designate an other day as his.
The Lord, then, has a day. And that day is the Sabbath. But now we ask, which of theseven daysis the Sabbath? We turn for our answer to the very heart of the Ten Commandments. “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.” Exodus 20: 8-10. That is clear, isn’t it? Now we have learned three things. The Lord has a day. The Sabbath is the Lord’s day.The seventh day is the Sabbath.
And now verse 11. This tells us why God made the Sabbath. “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.” Evidently there is a mighty strong link between the Sabbath and creation and the Creator.
How does creation fit into the story?
By the way, who made the worlds? Who made this earth? You say, “God did.” Yes. But let’s turn to Ephesians 3: 9. “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.” John 1:10 declares “He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.” Could any statement be clearer? Yes, Christ, as He pre-existed before Bethlehem, created this world.
Watch what happened. “And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made.” Genesis 2: 2, 3. Do you see it now? The One who made this earth is the One who made the Sabbath. Jesus had every right to say, “The Son of man is Lord of the sabbathday.” For He had made it. He had every right to say, “If ye love Me, keep My commandments.” For it was He Himself, back in Eden, who first gave commandments to men. Do we really sense the impact of what we have just discovered? Listen. The Christ of Calvary is the Creator of Genesis. To reject one is to reject the other! Have you ever thought of that? To reject one is to reject the other! Oh friends, why do we try to isolate the Sabbath and put it off somewhere by itself? Why are we so unwilling to leave it just where God put it—in the very center of His eternal law? Do you know that if I would go into a city and talk about juvenile delinquency and community betterment and salvation from sin—if I should point men to the word of God regarding adultery, stealing, killing, and show how Christ can give victory—every Christian would stand right back of me and many non-Christians as well. They would say, “Brother Joe, what a wonderful work you are doing for humanity!” But the moment we mention the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, eyebrows are lifted. Questions are raised. Excuses are piled high. Why? I ask you. Why? It is perfectly all right to talk about the first or second commandment or the sixth or the seventh or the eighth. But don’t mention the fourth. Why? Let’s be consistent. You can see that the commandments stand or fall together. Either they are still in force or they aren’t. Either it’s wrong for me to lie and kill and steal, or it isn’t. We don’t make excuses for breaking the other commandments. Why the fourth? I have often wondered how so clear and simple a matter as our relationship to grace and the commandments of God—I say, I have often wondered how so clear and simple a matter can be made to appear so confusing. People say, “I’m saved by grace. I don’t need to keep the law.” Did you ever hear anybody reason like that? But friend, do grace and pardon release us from obedience to the very law that we have broken? If I am saved, will I pick your pocket? Will I lie? Will I steal? Will I kill? No. Commandment keeping becomes a possibility to the heart that loves his Lord. It’s love that makes all the difference. Do you see? Salvation from the power of sin is a gift from God. He cancels our sin debt of the past through no good works of our own. And then, when we are forgiven, it is our delight to do God’s will. Not to merit heaven, you understand. But because we love Him. Commandment keeping, you see, is not a means of salvation. It is an evidence of it. Keep that clear distinction in mind, and you will never have any confusion on this vital point. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | Just Bring It - 2013-12-19 12:15 AM
Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 3:06 PM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 6:07 PM grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again.
My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus (a greek philosopher who died 200 years before Jesus was born ) https://bible.org/seriespage/why-there-evil-and-suffering
I don't have any questions. Not about christianity, at least. Been there, done that. I've since been to many places around the world, and guess what? They all believe- just as strongly as you do- that their path is the only correct one! Because that is the culture that surrounds them. For those who were 'reborn'- it was the support network that buoyed them when they felt weak. I believe in Satan as much as I believe in God, the tooth fairy and Poseidon (or the other 2000+ documented deities in human history). Other than influencing the laws I have to live by, usually by telling other people how they can live their lives (aren't you supposed to be free to find your own path?) none of these supernatural entities has a direct effect on my life. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. There is no evidence of divine intervention. If a sick child recovers, praise to the heavens, but if she does not- well, 'it was god's plan'. Why pray in the first place then? Do you know better than God's plan? Do you think if you send up enough wishes you'll change his all-seeing, all-knowing mind? A girl is raped, but that's not god's plan- that's Satan. God was aware that it was happening, and did nothing to stop it? In that light, I might be considered more ethical than God, because I would risk my mortal life to stop such a thing. Then the Rapist repents and accepts jesus as his savior and he's good to live in the kingdom of heaven for ever and ever? I'm only using christianity because it's the topic of most of the posters here. All three of the Abrahamic religions are very similar, though. Love me, or I'll torture you forever. Talk about an abusive relationship.
I'm perfectly satisfied and joyously happy with the knowledge that life is short, and you get just one. I do not know what happens after I die, and I do not fear it. I take time to enjoy the things that make me smile. I do nice things for people. My loved ones do not wonder how I feel about them. I don't tell people I'll pray for them, I ask them how I can help. When I'm sick- I realize that having experienced that makes me appreciate feeling normal that much more. When I've had to deal with loss and strife, I take a look around me. As DH Lawrence wrote: “I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.”
The experience of life is a fascinating journey, and regardless of whether you choose to believe you were put here for a reason, or the result of random occurrences over a long period of time, your existence is to be celebrated. Live your life and don't worry about trying to live other people's lives for them! | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 3:35 PM Just Bring It - 2013-12-19 12:15 AM Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 3:06 PM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 6:07 PM grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again.
My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus (a greek philosopher who died 200 years before Jesus was born ) https://bible.org/seriespage/why-there-evil-and-suffering I don't have any questions. Not about christianity, at least. Been there, done that. I've since been to many places around the world, and guess what? They all believe- just as strongly as you do- that their path is the only correct one! Because that is the culture that surrounds them. For those who were 'reborn'- it was the support network that buoyed them when they felt weak. I believe in Satan as much as I believe in God, the tooth fairy and Poseidon (or the other 2000+ documented deities in human history ). Other than influencing the laws I have to live by, usually by telling other people how they can live their lives (aren't you supposed to be free to find your own path? ) none of these supernatural entities has a direct effect on my life. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. There is no evidence of divine intervention. If a sick child recovers, praise to the heavens, but if she does not- well, 'it was god's plan'. Why pray in the first place then? Do you know better than God's plan? Do you think if you send up enough wishes you'll change his all-seeing, all-knowing mind? A girl is raped, but that's not god's plan- that's Satan. God was aware that it was happening, and did nothing to stop it? In that light, I might be considered more ethical than God, because I would risk my mortal life to stop such a thing. Then the Rapist repents and accepts jesus as his savior and he's good to live in the kingdom of heaven for ever and ever? I'm only using christianity because it's the topic of most of the posters here. All three of the Abrahamic religions are very similar, though. Love me, or I'll torture you forever. Talk about an abusive relationship. I'm perfectly satisfied and joyously happy with the knowledge that life is short, and you get just one. I do not know what happens after I die, and I do not fear it. I take time to enjoy the things that make me smile. I do nice things for people. My loved ones do not wonder how I feel about them. I don't tell people I'll pray for them, I ask them how I can help. When I'm sick- I realize that having experienced that makes me appreciate feeling normal that much more. When I've had to deal with loss and strife, I take a look around me. As DH Lawrence wrote: “I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.” The experience of life is a fascinating journey, and regardless of whether you choose to believe you were put here for a reason, or the result of random occurrences over a long period of time, your existence is to be celebrated. Live your life and don't worry about trying to live other people's lives for them!
You asked the questions so I posted a site that answered them. I am not in any way trying to change you or force anything on you. I have been where you are and still struggle with it many times myself but one thing I do know is when I let Jesus into my life I am overall much happier. I am not a depressed person or unhappy but when I let Him in I have a feeling of fullfillment deep inside and am at peace with every worry I may have had which makes me that much happier in my life. So why not let Him in? I don't try to fight it but instead I take my questions and study what I can from the Bible in hopes to find my answers. That is just my personal experience. But like I said I have asked the exact same things you have and have felt the same way you do. I have just realized that I feel better with Him by my side then when I push him away. So I choose to believe. | |
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Chi Chi Mama
Posts: 11212
Location: Spokompton, Wa | First off, I am not very religious. I do not read the Bible much. (It confuses me) and I do not attend chuch every Sunday. But I do believe in God. Why? It's just the feeling I get in my heart and soul. When I do go to church, I get a very overwhelming, emotional feeling. It makes me want to cry. Seriously. And that is in a good way. I don't know why. It's like I can feel Him. It's very comforting to know He is with me.
Merry Christmas!
Edited by Scotch 2013-12-18 3:51 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | Just Bring It - 2013-12-19 12:45 AM Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 3:35 PM Just Bring It - 2013-12-19 12:15 AM Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 3:06 PM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 6:07 PM grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again.
My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus (a greek philosopher who died 200 years before Jesus was born ) https://bible.org/seriespage/why-there-evil-and-suffering I don't have any questions. Not about christianity, at least. Been there, done that. I've since been to many places around the world, and guess what? They all believe- just as strongly as you do- that their path is the only correct one! Because that is the culture that surrounds them. For those who were 'reborn'- it was the support network that buoyed them when they felt weak. I believe in Satan as much as I believe in God, the tooth fairy and Poseidon (or the other 2000+ documented deities in human history ). Other than influencing the laws I have to live by, usually by telling other people how they can live their lives (aren't you supposed to be free to find your own path? ) none of these supernatural entities has a direct effect on my life. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. There is no evidence of divine intervention. If a sick child recovers, praise to the heavens, but if she does not- well, 'it was god's plan'. Why pray in the first place then? Do you know better than God's plan? Do you think if you send up enough wishes you'll change his all-seeing, all-knowing mind? A girl is raped, but that's not god's plan- that's Satan. God was aware that it was happening, and did nothing to stop it? In that light, I might be considered more ethical than God, because I would risk my mortal life to stop such a thing. Then the Rapist repents and accepts jesus as his savior and he's good to live in the kingdom of heaven for ever and ever? I'm only using christianity because it's the topic of most of the posters here. All three of the Abrahamic religions are very similar, though. Love me, or I'll torture you forever. Talk about an abusive relationship. I'm perfectly satisfied and joyously happy with the knowledge that life is short, and you get just one. I do not know what happens after I die, and I do not fear it. I take time to enjoy the things that make me smile. I do nice things for people. My loved ones do not wonder how I feel about them. I don't tell people I'll pray for them, I ask them how I can help. When I'm sick- I realize that having experienced that makes me appreciate feeling normal that much more. When I've had to deal with loss and strife, I take a look around me. As DH Lawrence wrote: “I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.” The experience of life is a fascinating journey, and regardless of whether you choose to believe you were put here for a reason, or the result of random occurrences over a long period of time, your existence is to be celebrated. Live your life and don't worry about trying to live other people's lives for them! im in? I don't try to fight it but instead I take my questions and study what I can from the Bible in hopes to find my answers. That is just my personal experience. But like I said I have asked the exact same things you have and have felt the same way you do. I have just realized that I feel better with Him by my side then when I push him away. So I choose to believe.
I posted a qoute from Epicurus. Those weren't questions I was asking, it was rhetoric. I appreciate that you are trying to help, but believe me when I say I'm as solid in my beliefs as you are, if not more so, since I never wonder or have doubt. Don't get me wrong, I'm always willing to accept any new evidence that would change my mind. Angels, talking bushes on fire. All that stuff that worked in the OT- that would work for me. Have not seen any of it!
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Veteran
Posts: 142
| Murphy - 2013-12-18 10:43 AM crossspur - 2013-12-18 11:41 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 10:20 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 9:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people.
in verses like these
Mathew 7:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Mathew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
I don't believe you have to go to church or that you have to be the same religion I am to enter into heaven, but I do believe you have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and love him. That you have to confess your sins and ask him to be your savor & try very hard to be a good person & be kind to everyone.
As some have said " I would rather believe & find out I'm wrong than not believe & find out I'm wrong.
This is something I have though a lot about in my journey, the most important question about Christianity is who IS Jesus? Christians believe he is a real man, but he is the man that God has become, the Bible is the written words about the LIVING WORD and Jesus is the Word incarnate in human form. (read st. John - that is the theological gospel. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God...he Word became flesh)
He is fully man but not limited to just the man if that makes any sense. Knowing God isnt limited to just knowing about and believing in the human being called Jesus. The Word is present in all of creation and those who have lived by the Word (who is love and truth) truly KNOW God, not in a logical way but in a heart way. They receive that saving grace/light into their souls and are transformed by it, beginning in this life and continuing forever in the next. The goal of Christian life is to become one with God, to be filled with the Holy Spirit. The Church gives us tools (revealed to us by Christ) to help us with our journey in this life, Baptism, prayer, confession, and Holy Communion. These are all ways to help us recieve grace. The Holy Spirit works with the Christian from within, but also works with humanity from the outside. | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 3:35 PM Just Bring It - 2013-12-19 12:15 AM Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 3:06 PM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 6:07 PM grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again. My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it? Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus (a greek philosopher who died 200 years before Jesus was born ) https://bible.org/seriespage/why-there-evil-and-suffering I don't have any questions. Not about christianity, at least. Been there, done that. I've since been to many places around the world, and guess what? They all believe- just as strongly as you do- that their path is the only correct one! Because that is the culture that surrounds them. For those who were 'reborn'- it was the support network that buoyed them when they felt weak. I believe in Satan as much as I believe in God, the tooth fairy and Poseidon (or the other 2000+ documented deities in human history ). Other than influencing the laws I have to live by, usually by telling other people how they can live their lives (aren't you supposed to be free to find your own path? ) none of these supernatural entities has a direct effect on my life. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. There is no evidence of divine intervention. If a sick child recovers, praise to the heavens, but if she does not- well, 'it was god's plan'. Why pray in the first place then? Do you know better than God's plan? Do you think if you send up enough wishes you'll change his all-seeing, all-knowing mind? A girl is raped, but that's not god's plan- that's Satan. God was aware that it was happening, and did nothing to stop it? In that light, I might be considered more ethical than God, because I would risk my mortal life to stop such a thing. Then the Rapist repents and accepts jesus as his savior and he's good to live in the kingdom of heaven for ever and ever? I'm only using christianity because it's the topic of most of the posters here. All three of the Abrahamic religions are very similar, though. Love me, or I'll torture you forever. Talk about an abusive relationship. I'm perfectly satisfied and joyously happy with the knowledge that life is short, and you get just one. I do not know what happens after I die, and I do not fear it. I take time to enjoy the things that make me smile. I do nice things for people. My loved ones do not wonder how I feel about them. I don't tell people I'll pray for them, I ask them how I can help. When I'm sick- I realize that having experienced that makes me appreciate feeling normal that much more. When I've had to deal with loss and strife, I take a look around me. As DH Lawrence wrote: “I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.” The experience of life is a fascinating journey, and regardless of whether you choose to believe you were put here for a reason, or the result of random occurrences over a long period of time, your existence is to be celebrated. Live your life and don't worry about trying to live other people's lives for them!
Do you not feel that someone that sins but is truly sorry should be forgiven? I believe God knows a persons true heart more than they themselves. If a man does a horrible crime and rapes a girl but is truly sorry for his actions and has made the choice to change and open his heart to the Lord do you think he deserves to spend all eternity in hell for one horrible choice he made? Now I am not saying a man goes around murdering people and living a horrible sinful life then all of a sudden at his death bed asks for forgiveness should be forgiven because to me in his heart he does not truly feel sorry for what he has done. He is just scared of what will happen once he dies. That is showing that he feels sorry for himself but not for his victims and what he has done. God knows what is in our heart.
Edited by Just Bring It 2013-12-18 4:27 PM
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Total Germophobe
Posts: 6443
Location: Montana | slacy09 - 2013-12-18 1:46 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1343
Location: East Texas | God gave each of us the right of free will. He did not make us His puppets to dangle around and do what He wants us to do. He gives each of us a choice. The rapist chooses to rape; the murder chooses to kill; the liar choose to lie; the thief chooses to steal and so on and so on. That same free will gives us the choice to love God and follow His plan for our lives. Have you ever wanted someone to love you but they didn’t? Could you MAKE them love you? Of course not. His will for each of our lives is to love Him; love each other, and live a life helping others and making good choices. But because of that free will, some choose to love God and accept his forgiveness through a personal relationship with Jesus, and some choose to not accept the forgiveness He offers. Because God is God and His ways are higher than ours, we will never – this side of heaven – understand WHY he allows bad things to happen, but He does. Where is He when those bad things are happening? On His throne in heaven… the same place He was when your sin and my sin nailed His Son to the cross to die a cruel and long-suffering death for every rotten thing you and I have ever done. Did Jesus deserve that? Absolutely not… but He did it for us because that’s how much He loves us. So, when bad things happen to good people, just remember that the worst happened to His precious Son. God knew that His Son would pay the ultimate sacrifice for us when He made Adam and Eve and they used their free will to sin. God made this plan to save us from eternal separation from Him before He ever set the world into motion. All we have to do is accept, by faith. He has done all the rest! | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Just Bring It - 2013-12-18 12:59 PM
"Sunday worship did not originate in the Bible, or in the reality of the events of the crucifixion and resurrection. All of the first Christians, including Peter, Paul, all of the apostles, Mary and Joseph, all of the people who wrote the Bible, and Jesus Christ Himself were seventh-day Sabbath keepers. All of them.
So, where did Sunday worship come from?
Gradually, the Roman empire that persecuted Christians began to adopt Christianity, or rather, its own self-serving version of Christianity, which was a blend of politics and religion, a little truth, but mostly outright Roman paganism - which included worship of the Roman sun god. Sunday worship came about as a pagan corruption of God's holy seventh-day Sabbath.
By the fourth century, only Jews (by then, God's Sabbath was becoming known as the "Jewish" Sabbath), and a relatively few true Christians, continued to observe the seventh-day Sabbath as God commanded everyone. There is only one true God, and one true Sabbath.
In 321, the Roman emperor Constantine issued an edict which outlawed work on the "venerable day of the sun," Sunday, and within 3 years the corrupted version of Christianity had become the official religion of the Roman empire. From that, the Roman Catholic Church, and its many Protestant daughter churches, got the commonly-accepted Sunday observance of today - utterly pagan in origin, and completely contrary to God's command.
Traditions of men cannot save you. Only the Truth, and genuine obedience to it, is the way to salvation. If you didn't know the truth about Sunday before, now you do. And God knows that you do."
Here are two examples of Sunday worship in the Bible:
1) On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight. Acts 20:7
2) Now concerning the collection for the saints; as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | TXBO - 2013-12-18 5:32 PM Just Bring It - 2013-12-18 12:59 PM
"Sunday worship did not originate in the Bible, or in the reality of the events of the crucifixion and resurrection. All of the first Christians, including Peter, Paul, all of the apostles, Mary and Joseph, all of the people who wrote the Bible, and Jesus Christ Himself were seventh-day Sabbath keepers. All of them.
So, where did Sunday worship come from?
Gradually, the Roman empire that persecuted Christians began to adopt Christianity, or rather, its own self-serving version of Christianity, which was a blend of politics and religion, a little truth, but mostly outright Roman paganism - which included worship of the Roman sun god. Sunday worship came about as a pagan corruption of God's holy seventh-day Sabbath.
By the fourth century, only Jews (by then, God's Sabbath was becoming known as the "Jewish" Sabbath), and a relatively few true Christians, continued to observe the seventh-day Sabbath as God commanded everyone. There is only one true God, and one true Sabbath.
In 321, the Roman emperor Constantine issued an edict which outlawed work on the "venerable day of the sun," Sunday, and within 3 years the corrupted version of Christianity had become the official religion of the Roman empire. From that, the Roman Catholic Church, and its many Protestant daughter churches, got the commonly-accepted Sunday observance of today - utterly pagan in origin, and completely contrary to God's command.
Traditions of men cannot save you. Only the Truth, and genuine obedience to it, is the way to salvation. If you didn't know the truth about Sunday before, now you do. And God knows that you do."
1) On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight. Acts 20:7
2) Now concerning the collection for the saints; as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2
Because people also congregated on Sunday does that replace the Sabbath? Or should the Sabbath still be kept holy? I don't know of a place in the Bible that says that the holy day of the seventh day commanded by God is now replaced by the first day. I guess that is where I struggle. God commanded that the Sabbath day be kept holy so where does it say that He abolished that commandment? | |
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 Max is Back
Posts: 6795
Location: Flat Rock,IL | http://www.realfarmacy.com/the-unexplainable-video-everyones-talkin... | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| Many comments here scream that many of you have never read the scriptures, but claim to be a believer.
Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
Edited by Bigfoot 2013-12-18 6:07 PM
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 6:05 PM Many comments here scream that many of you have never read the scriptures, but claim to be a believer. Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
No one came on here to be judged. Everyone on here is learning. Believing does not mean you are right in every way. Also who is to say who is right? Believing is just that....BELIEVING. I bet you believe surgery can save lives though you have never read a medical book. I will not judge others as I hope they will not judge me. Questions are asked by those who want to learn more. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| Mathew 7: 15-20
No one is judging you. Lots of visible fruit here though.
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. | |
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Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 7:05 PM
Many comments here scream that many of you have never read the scriptures, but claim to be a believer.
Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
I don't read the scriptures, but I am a believer. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Just Bring It - 2013-12-18 5:57 PM Because people also congregated on Sunday does that replace the Sabbath? Or should the Sabbath still be kept holy? I don't know of a place in the Bible that says that the holy day of the seventh day commanded by God is now replaced by the first day. I guess that is where I struggle. God commanded that the Sabbath day be kept holy so where does it say that He abolished that commandment? The Holy Day does not replace the sabbath. The law is upheld through Christ.
We get our rest through faith in him.
"Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest." Mathew 11:28
This is confirmed by his words when twice questioned about his sabboth practices. Once when his disciples were picking grain and once when he healed somebody.
"The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabboth" Mathew 12:8
So Christ becomes our rest and our faith in him upholds keeping the sabboth holy.
"So then there remains a sabboth rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his." Hebrews 4:9-10
Edited by TXBO 2013-12-18 6:40 PM
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| Scotch - 2013-12-18 4:50 PM First off, I am not very religious. I do not read the Bible much. (It confuses me) and I do not attend chuch every Sunday. But I do believe in God. Why? It's just the feeling I get in my heart and soul. When I do go to church, I get a very overwhelming, emotional feeling. It makes me want to cry. Seriously. And that is in a good way. I don't know why. It's like I can feel Him. It's very comforting to know He is with me.
Merry Christmas!
Just out of curiosity, if that's how you feel when you go to church, why don't you go more often? I feel that way, too, and I look forward to going to my church. Haven't felt like that about every church I've ever attended but I do now at my present church. | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 6:29 PM Mathew 7: 15-20 No one is judging you. Lots of visible fruit here though. 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Who is a wolf in sheeps clothing? Who is trying to steer people away from God? This entire post was asking about what makes people believe and it got brought onto the Sabbath so then I asked what makes people believe that Sunday is the proper day for worship and that the day God commanded us to keep does not need to be kept holy anymore. Having different views, oppinions, beliefs, etc and having questions of those differences does not make someone wrong or "bad". This whole topic brought up great points that made us all look at what we believe and why. It also raised a lot of great questions! Why are questions a bad thing? Should we all just sit and allow someone to tell us what to believe and just believe it because they said so? Or should we ask questions to help us better understand? | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | I guess something I am learning is that Christ fulfilled the law on the cross. That I got but I never quite understood why was the Sabbath fulfilled but not the other commandments? We still should not murder. That is still a sin. Adultery is still a sin. So why not keeping the Sabbath? But what I am getting now is that the Sabbath is still the Sabbath but our Sabbath rest is fulfilled and our rest is placed on Another. Sunday is not Sabbath. It is a day of worship but not of rest. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| It's perfectly fine for people to ask questions. There are people responding, that have no earthly idea what they are talking about.
Corinthians 11: 13-15
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 7:13 PM It's perfectly fine for people to ask questions. There are people responding, that have no earthly idea what they are talking about. Corinthians 11: 13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Care to enlighten us? | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | rach.k - 2013-12-17 10:41 AM I guess that's what makes it faith and "believing," instead of knowing :)
I have a hard time believing this world WASN'T created, ya know- there's a saddle because there's a saddle maker, there's a house because there's a builder, etc. they didn't just "happen."
I have a lot of friends that believe the Big Bang theory but to my knowledge explosions cause chaos not order, we blow things up to destroy, not create... So I can't get with a theory that essentially claims "There was nothing, then it all blew up and became an organized everything." Lol
im not meaning to sound like I'm talking down either, I'm just saying, in my short years of experience I've never seen something created without a creator, and throughout life, learning and trying to get closer to God I've just become somehow more and more sure :)
My mom always says, yes we believe and we could be wrong and after we die we just die; BUT, what if we're right and nonbelievers are wrong and find themselves standing before God... Now that's a scary "what-if!"
I agree 100% with what you said. It truly is believing, not knowing. My mom is an extremely strict Catholic and my dad believes but is not a religious man. Growing up I never had a question of whether God was real or not. He was real like the grass is green and the earth is round. I guess as I got older I never questioned his existance, but I understood that you really do have to take a lot of it on faith. I also found that logically, God's existance makes sense. As it says in the post I quoted, the whole theory of evolution and the big bang just do not make sense. First of all, how is there nothing, and then nothing explodes for no reason, and creates everything. Then with evolution, yes some animals evolved from a primitive state into what they are today, but the idea that apes turned into humans? If that were true, then WHY ARE APES STILL APES? You don't see. In no other case (that I've ever heard of anyway) has an animal evolved and simultaneously had it's ancestor living at the same time. It. makes. no. sense. My honest opinion is the people who came up with these theories were just batsh*t. Again. Just my opinion. I think the best person to explain how religion and science work together is one of the most brilliant, if not the most brilliant people of all time:
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | rach.k - 2013-12-17 10:41 AM I guess that's what makes it faith and "believing," instead of knowing :)
I have a hard time believing this world WASN'T created, ya know- there's a saddle because there's a saddle maker, there's a house because there's a builder, etc. they didn't just "happen."
I have a lot of friends that believe the Big Bang theory but to my knowledge explosions cause chaos not order, we blow things up to destroy, not create... So I can't get with a theory that essentially claims "There was nothing, then it all blew up and became an organized everything." Lol
im not meaning to sound like I'm talking down either, I'm just saying, in my short years of experience I've never seen something created without a creator, and throughout life, learning and trying to get closer to God I've just become somehow more and more sure :)
My mom always says, yes we believe and we could be wrong and after we die we just die; BUT, what if we're right and nonbelievers are wrong and find themselves standing before God... Now that's a scary "what-if!"
I agree 100% with what you said. It truly is believing, not knowing. My mom is an extremely strict Catholic and my dad believes but is not a religious man. Growing up I never had a question of whether God was real or not. He was real like the grass is green and the earth is round. I guess as I got older I never questioned his existance, but I understood that you really do have to take a lot of it on faith. I also found that logically, God's existance makes sense. As it says in the post I quoted, the whole theory of evolution and the big bang just do not make sense. First of all, how is there nothing, and then nothing explodes for no reason, and creates everything. Then with evolution, yes some animals evolved from a primitive state into what they are today, but the idea that apes turned into humans? If that were true, then WHY ARE APES STILL APES? You don't see. In no other case (that I've ever heard of anyway) has an animal evolved and simultaneously had it's ancestor living at the same time. It. makes. no. sense. My honest opinion is the people who came up with these theories were just batsh*t. Again. Just my opinion. I think the best person to explain how religion and science work together is one of the most brilliant, if not the most brilliant people of all time:
I can't find the particular quote I wanted from him. But he know's what's up. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| TXBO - 2013-12-18 7:19 PM
Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 7:13 PM It's perfectly fine for people to ask questions. There are people responding, that have no earthly idea what they are talking about. Corinthians 11: 13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Care to enlighten us?
Lots of people here throwing out bad advice, lots of people here professing not to understand-------Get your eyes in the bible, your mind on Jesus, and yourself in church.
2nd Corinthians 10:5
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 8:11 PM
TXBO - 2013-12-18 7:19 PM
Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 7:13 PM It's perfectly fine for people to ask questions. There are people responding, that have no earthly idea what they are talking about. Corinthians 11: 13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Care to enlighten us?
Lots of people here throwing out bad advice, lots of people here professing not to understand-------Get your eyes in the bible, your mind on Jesus, and yourself in church.
2nd Corinthians 10:5
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
I agree with everything you said but either comment, rebuke or correct.... Or Phuk off. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | cavyrunsbarrels - 2013-12-19 4:43 AM
rach.k - 2013-12-17 10:41 AM I guess that's what makes it faith and "believing," instead of knowing :)
I have a hard time believing this world WASN'T created, ya know- there's a saddle because there's a saddle maker, there's a house because there's a builder, etc. they didn't just "happen."
I have a lot of friends that believe the Big Bang theory but to my knowledge explosions cause chaos not order, we blow things up to destroy, not create... So I can't get with a theory that essentially claims "There was nothing, then it all blew up and became an organized everything." Lol
im not meaning to sound like I'm talking down either, I'm just saying, in my short years of experience I've never seen something created without a creator, and throughout life, learning and trying to get closer to God I've just become somehow more and more sure :)
My mom always says, yes we believe and we could be wrong and after we die we just die; BUT, what if we're right and nonbelievers are wrong and find themselves standing before God... Now that's a scary "what-if!"
I agree 100% with what you said. It truly is believing, not knowing. My mom is an extremely strict Catholic and my dad believes but is not a religious man. Growing up I never had a question of whether God was real or not. He was real like the grass is green and the earth is round. I guess as I got older I never questioned his existance, but I understood that you really do have to take a lot of it on faith. I also found that logically, God's existance makes sense. As it says in the post I quoted, the whole theory of evolution and the big bang just do not make sense. First of all, how is there nothing, and then nothing explodes for no reason, and creates everything. Then with evolution, yes some animals evolved from a primitive state into what they are today, but the idea that apes turned into humans? If that were true, then WHY ARE APES STILL APES? You don't see. In no other case (that I've ever heard of anyway) has an animal evolved and simultaneously had it's ancestor living at the same time. It. makes. no. sense. My honest opinion is the people who came up with these theories were just batsh*t. Again. Just my opinion. I think the best person to explain how religion and science work together is one of the most brilliant, if not the most brilliant people of all time:
Wondering why apes are still apes is like asking why there are still British people now that Australia and the US exist. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| TXBO - 2013-12-18 8:44 PM
Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 8:11 PM
TXBO - 2013-12-18 7:19 PM
Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 7:13 PM It's perfectly fine for people to ask questions. There are people responding, that have no earthly idea what they are talking about. Corinthians 11: 13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Care to enlighten us?
Lots of people here throwing out bad advice, lots of people here professing not to understand-------Get your eyes in the bible, your mind on Jesus, and yourself in church.
2nd Corinthians 10:5
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
I agree with everything you said but either comment, rebuke or correct.... Or Phuk off.
I guess I'm stupid or something. I don't understand your question Do I line item every false witness here? | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 8:47 PM TXBO - 2013-12-18 8:44 PM Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 8:11 PM TXBO - 2013-12-18 7:19 PM Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 7:13 PM It's perfectly fine for people to ask questions. There are people responding, that have no earthly idea what they are talking about. Corinthians 11: 13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. Care to enlighten us? Lots of people here throwing out bad advice, lots of people here professing not to understand-------Get your eyes in the bible, your mind on Jesus, and yourself in church. 2nd Corinthians 10:5 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. I agree with everything you said but either comment, rebuke or correct.... Or Phuk off. I guess I'm stupid or something. I don't understand your question Do I line item every false witness here?
Sure. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | Just Bring It - 2013-12-19 1:21 AM
Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 3:35 PM Just Bring It - 2013-12-19 12:15 AM Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 3:06 PM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 6:07 PM grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again. My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it? Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus (a greek philosopher who died 200 years before Jesus was born ) https://bible.org/seriespage/why-there-evil-and-suffering I don't have any questions. Not about christianity, at least. Been there, done that. I've since been to many places around the world, and guess what? They all believe- just as strongly as you do- that their path is the only correct one! Because that is the culture that surrounds them. For those who were 'reborn'- it was the support network that buoyed them when they felt weak. I believe in Satan as much as I believe in God, the tooth fairy and Poseidon (or the other 2000+ documented deities in human history ). Other than influencing the laws I have to live by, usually by telling other people how they can live their lives (aren't you supposed to be free to find your own path? ) none of these supernatural entities has a direct effect on my life. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. There is no evidence of divine intervention. If a sick child recovers, praise to the heavens, but if she does not- well, 'it was god's plan'. Why pray in the first place then? Do you know better than God's plan? Do you think if you send up enough wishes you'll change his all-seeing, all-knowing mind? A girl is raped, but that's not god's plan- that's Satan. God was aware that it was happening, and did nothing to stop it? In that light, I might be considered more ethical than God, because I would risk my mortal life to stop such a thing. Then the Rapist repents and accepts jesus as his savior and he's good to live in the kingdom of heaven for ever and ever? I'm only using christianity because it's the topic of most of the posters here. All three of the Abrahamic religions are very similar, though. Love me, or I'll torture you forever. Talk about an abusive relationship. I'm perfectly satisfied and joyously happy with the knowledge that life is short, and you get just one. I do not know what happens after I die, and I do not fear it. I take time to enjoy the things that make me smile. I do nice things for people. My loved ones do not wonder how I feel about them. I don't tell people I'll pray for them, I ask them how I can help. When I'm sick- I realize that having experienced that makes me appreciate feeling normal that much more. When I've had to deal with loss and strife, I take a look around me. As DH Lawrence wrote: “I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.” The experience of life is a fascinating journey, and regardless of whether you choose to believe you were put here for a reason, or the result of random occurrences over a long period of time, your existence is to be celebrated. Live your life and don't worry about trying to live other people's lives for them! I am not trying to convince you or change your mind. I am only quoting you because you brought this up and I wanted to address it if nothing else then to maybe help someone else who also has the same questions as you. Do you not feel that someone that sins but is truly sorry should be forgiven? I believe God knows a persons true heart more than they themselves. If a man does a horrible crime and rapes a girl but is truly sorry for his actions and has made the choice to change and open his heart to the Lord do you think he deserves to spend all eternity in hell for one horrible choice he made? Now I am not saying a man goes around murdering people and living a horrible sinful life then all of a sudden at his death bed asks for forgiveness should be forgiven because to me in his heart he does not truly feel sorry for what he has done. He is just scared of what will happen once he dies. That is showing that he feels sorry for himself but not for his victims and what he has done. God knows what is in our heart.
I do not believe there is such a thing as heaven or hell, but, playing along by those rules- the same would apply to all those throwing down on Pascal's wager are living a lie. God, as an omniscient being would know that you did not truly believe in your heart, that you did not come to find him on your own, that you were following along with social convention or the fear of eternal punishment. *MOST* sects of Christianity promote that all you need to do to enter the kingdom of heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, so that man who spent his life murdering and living a horrible sinful life would get a pass, afterall, if he did indeed do that. | |
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Location: La Vernia, TX | horsesinharleton - 2013-12-19 1:58 AM
God gave each of us the right of free will. He did not make us His puppets to dangle around and do what He wants us to do. He gives each of us a choice. The rapist chooses to rape; the murder chooses to kill; the liar choose to lie; the thief chooses to steal and so on and so on. That same free will gives us the choice to love God and follow His plan for our lives. Have you ever wanted someone to love you but they didn’t? Could you MAKE them love you? Of course not. His will for each of our lives is to love Him; love each other, and live a life helping others and making good choices. But because of that free will, some choose to love God and accept his forgiveness through a personal relationship with Jesus, and some choose to not accept the forgiveness He offers. Because God is God and His ways are higher than ours, we will never – this side of heaven – understand WHY he allows bad things to happen, but He does. Where is He when those bad things are happening? On His throne in heaven… the same place He was when your sin and my sin nailed His Son to the cross to die a cruel and long-suffering death for every rotten thing you and I have ever done. Did Jesus deserve that? Absolutely not… but He did it for us because that’s how much He loves us. So, when bad things happen to good people, just remember that the worst happened to His precious Son. God knew that His Son would pay the ultimate sacrifice for us when He made Adam and Eve and they used their free will to sin. God made this plan to save us from eternal separation from Him before He ever set the world into motion. All we have to do is accept, by faith. He has done all the rest!
The whole Jesus died for our sins thing is so absurd. First, he didn't really die, did he? Second, God, being the omnipotent and omniscient being that he is purported to be- couldn't find a way to forgive us of our sins without the twisted soap opera drama?
And then there is the whole concept of Jesus being the worldly manifestation of God, hence:  | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | cavyrunsbarrels - 2013-12-19 4:45 AM
rach.k - 2013-12-17 10:41 AM I guess that's what makes it faith and "believing," instead of knowing :)
I have a hard time believing this world WASN'T created, ya know- there's a saddle because there's a saddle maker, there's a house because there's a builder, etc. they didn't just "happen."
I have a lot of friends that believe the Big Bang theory but to my knowledge explosions cause chaos not order, we blow things up to destroy, not create... So I can't get with a theory that essentially claims "There was nothing, then it all blew up and became an organized everything." Lol
im not meaning to sound like I'm talking down either, I'm just saying, in my short years of experience I've never seen something created without a creator, and throughout life, learning and trying to get closer to God I've just become somehow more and more sure :)
My mom always says, yes we believe and we could be wrong and after we die we just die; BUT, what if we're right and nonbelievers are wrong and find themselves standing before God... Now that's a scary "what-if!"
I agree 100% with what you said. It truly is believing, not knowing. My mom is an extremely strict Catholic and my dad believes but is not a religious man. Growing up I never had a question of whether God was real or not. He was real like the grass is green and the earth is round. I guess as I got older I never questioned his existance, but I understood that you really do have to take a lot of it on faith. I also found that logically, God's existance makes sense. As it says in the post I quoted, the whole theory of evolution and the big bang just do not make sense. First of all, how is there nothing, and then nothing explodes for no reason, and creates everything. Then with evolution, yes some animals evolved from a primitive state into what they are today, but the idea that apes turned into humans? If that were true, then WHY ARE APES STILL APES? You don't see. In no other case (that I've ever heard of anyway) has an animal evolved and simultaneously had it's ancestor living at the same time. It. makes. no. sense. My honest opinion is the people who came up with these theories were just batsh*t. Again. Just my opinion. I think the best person to explain how religion and science work together is one of the most brilliant, if not the most brilliant people of all time:
I can't find the particular quote I wanted from him. But he know's what's up.
A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)
I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein) | |
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Posts: 597
| TXBO - 2013-12-18 7:44 PM
Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 8:11 PM
TXBO - 2013-12-18 7:19 PM
Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 7:13 PM It's perfectly fine for people to ask questions. There are people responding, that have no earthly idea what they are talking about. Corinthians 11: 13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Care to enlighten us?
Lots of people here throwing out bad advice, lots of people here professing not to understand-------Get your eyes in the bible, your mind on Jesus, and yourself in church.
2nd Corinthians 10:5
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
I agree with everything you said but either comment, rebuke or correct.... Or Phuk off.
No to derail but... I think I love you TXBO | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | @ itsme: LOL! :D
Edited by Phoenix98 2013-12-18 9:15 PM
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Purveyor of unconventional wisdom
Posts: 17112
Location: CA | Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 8:47 PM TXBO - 2013-12-18 8:44 PM Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 8:11 PM TXBO - 2013-12-18 7:19 PM Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 7:13 PM It's perfectly fine for people to ask questions. There are people responding, that have no earthly idea what they are talking about. Corinthians 11: 13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. Care to enlighten us? Lots of people here throwing out bad advice, lots of people here professing not to understand-------Get your eyes in the bible, your mind on Jesus, and yourself in church. 2nd Corinthians 10:5 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. I agree with everything you said but either comment, rebuke or correct.... Or Phuk off. I guess I'm stupid or something. I don't understand your question Do I line item every false witness here?
Sheep dog....is that you? Long time no see. :) | |
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Posts: 464
| Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 9:02 PM
horsesinharleton - 2013-12-19 1:58 AM
God gave each of us the right of free will. He did not make us His puppets to dangle around and do what He wants us to do. He gives each of us a choice. The rapist chooses to rape; the murder chooses to kill; the liar choose to lie; the thief chooses to steal and so on and so on. That same free will gives us the choice to love God and follow His plan for our lives. Have you ever wanted someone to love you but they didn’t? Could you MAKE them love you? Of course not. His will for each of our lives is to love Him; love each other, and live a life helping others and making good choices. But because of that free will, some choose to love God and accept his forgiveness through a personal relationship with Jesus, and some choose to not accept the forgiveness He offers. Because God is God and His ways are higher than ours, we will never – this side of heaven – understand WHY he allows bad things to happen, but He does. Where is He when those bad things are happening? On His throne in heaven… the same place He was when your sin and my sin nailed His Son to the cross to die a cruel and long-suffering death for every rotten thing you and I have ever done. Did Jesus deserve that? Absolutely not… but He did it for us because that’s how much He loves us. So, when bad things happen to good people, just remember that the worst happened to His precious Son. God knew that His Son would pay the ultimate sacrifice for us when He made Adam and Eve and they used their free will to sin. God made this plan to save us from eternal separation from Him before He ever set the world into motion. All we have to do is accept, by faith. He has done all the rest!
The whole Jesus died for our sins thing is so absurd. First, he didn't really die, did he? Second, God, being the omnipotent and omniscient being that he is purported to be- couldn't find a way to forgive us of our sins without the twisted soap opera drama?
And then there is the whole concept of Jesus being the worldly manifestation of God, hence:
Are you wanting me to respond to this kind of stuff? | |
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Purveyor of unconventional wisdom
Posts: 17112
Location: CA | Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 9:19 PM Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 9:02 PM horsesinharleton - 2013-12-19 1:58 AM God gave each of us the right of free will. He did not make us His puppets to dangle around and do what He wants us to do. He gives each of us a choice. The rapist chooses to rape; the murder chooses to kill; the liar choose to lie; the thief chooses to steal and so on and so on. That same free will gives us the choice to love God and follow His plan for our lives. Have you ever wanted someone to love you but they didn’t? Could you MAKE them love you? Of course not. His will for each of our lives is to love Him; love each other, and live a life helping others and making good choices. But because of that free will, some choose to love God and accept his forgiveness through a personal relationship with Jesus, and some choose to not accept the forgiveness He offers. Because God is God and His ways are higher than ours, we will never – this side of heaven – understand WHY he allows bad things to happen, but He does. Where is He when those bad things are happening? On His throne in heaven… the same place He was when your sin and my sin nailed His Son to the cross to die a cruel and long-suffering death for every rotten thing you and I have ever done. Did Jesus deserve that? Absolutely not… but He did it for us because that’s how much He loves us. So, when bad things happen to good people, just remember that the worst happened to His precious Son. God knew that His Son would pay the ultimate sacrifice for us when He made Adam and Eve and they used their free will to sin. God made this plan to save us from eternal separation from Him before He ever set the world into motion. All we have to do is accept, by faith. He has done all the rest! The whole Jesus died for our sins thing is so absurd. First, he didn't really die, did he? Second, God, being the omnipotent and omniscient being that he is purported to be- couldn't find a way to forgive us of our sins without the twisted soap opera drama? And then there is the whole concept of Jesus being the worldly manifestation of God, hence: Are you wanting me to respond to this kind of stuff?
Well of course, this thread is all about your opinion. :) | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| T turning 3 - 2013-12-18 9:23 PM
Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 9:19 PM Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 9:02 PM horsesinharleton - 2013-12-19 1:58 AM God gave each of us the right of free will. He did not make us His puppets to dangle around and do what He wants us to do. He gives each of us a choice. The rapist chooses to rape; the murder chooses to kill; the liar choose to lie; the thief chooses to steal and so on and so on. That same free will gives us the choice to love God and follow His plan for our lives. Have you ever wanted someone to love you but they didn’t? Could you MAKE them love you? Of course not. His will for each of our lives is to love Him; love each other, and live a life helping others and making good choices. But because of that free will, some choose to love God and accept his forgiveness through a personal relationship with Jesus, and some choose to not accept the forgiveness He offers. Because God is God and His ways are higher than ours, we will never – this side of heaven – understand WHY he allows bad things to happen, but He does. Where is He when those bad things are happening? On His throne in heaven… the same place He was when your sin and my sin nailed His Son to the cross to die a cruel and long-suffering death for every rotten thing you and I have ever done. Did Jesus deserve that? Absolutely not… but He did it for us because that’s how much He loves us. So, when bad things happen to good people, just remember that the worst happened to His precious Son. God knew that His Son would pay the ultimate sacrifice for us when He made Adam and Eve and they used their free will to sin. God made this plan to save us from eternal separation from Him before He ever set the world into motion. All we have to do is accept, by faith. He has done all the rest! The whole Jesus died for our sins thing is so absurd. First, he didn't really die, did he? Second, God, being the omnipotent and omniscient being that he is purported to be- couldn't find a way to forgive us of our sins without the twisted soap opera drama? And then there is the whole concept of Jesus being the worldly manifestation of God, hence: Are you wanting me to respond to this kind of stuff?
Hard to respond to that without passing judgement.
Galations 6:7
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
I infer from this passage that who ever posted that picture has not accepted Jesus as savior. I assume that they have chosen the broad path to destruction. What more can I add? | |
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Purveyor of unconventional wisdom
Posts: 17112
Location: CA | In my opinion the attitude of my way or the highway concerning faith is as false as it gets. God guides us where we are to be. God helps us along. There have been some great opinions on this thread. What resognates with people is what will start them on the road to their spirituality. The path may not be like any others, or it could be exactly the same. But if someone reads something on here that leads them to wonder about more, to seek knowledge, or even just to open their heart seeking what is missing, it is a great thing!
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| T turning 3 - 2013-12-18 9:44 PM
In my opinion the attitude of my way or the highway concerning faith is as false as it gets. God guides us where we are to be. God helps us along. There have been some great opinions on this thread. What resognates with people is what will start them on the road to their spirituality. The path may not be like any others, or it could be exactly the same. But if someone reads something on here that leads them to wonder about more, to seek knowledge, or even just to open their heart seeking what is missing, it is a great thing!
There is only one way to heaven, and no other. I don't want resonate anything other than that. A Christian doesn't want to get people thinking about what is missing. If they don't know Jesus as savior, that is what is missing. Time may not allow for the nonbeliever to wonder aimlessly through life to hopefully stumble on the answer. Jesus is the answer.
Corinthians 1:18
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 9:57 PM T turning 3 - 2013-12-18 9:44 PM In my opinion the attitude of my way or the highway concerning faith is as false as it gets. God guides us where we are to be. God helps us along. There have been some great opinions on this thread. What resognates with people is what will start them on the road to their spirituality. The path may not be like any others, or it could be exactly the same. But if someone reads something on here that leads them to wonder about more, to seek knowledge, or even just to open their heart seeking what is missing, it is a great thing!
There is only one way to heaven, and no other. I don't want resonate anything other than that. A Christian doesn't want to get people thinking about what is missing. If they don't know Jesus as savior, that is what is missing. Time may not allow for the nonbeliever to wonder aimlessly through life to hopefully stumble on the answer. Jesus is the answer. Corinthians 1:18 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Well done | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| wild_west - 2013-12-18 9:13 PM TXBO - 2013-12-18 7:44 PM Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 8:11 PM TXBO - 2013-12-18 7:19 PM Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 7:13 PM It's perfectly fine for people to ask questions. There are people responding, that have no earthly idea what they are talking about. Corinthians 11: 13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. Care to enlighten us? Lots of people here throwing out bad advice, lots of people here professing not to understand-------Get your eyes in the bible, your mind on Jesus, and yourself in church. 2nd Corinthians 10:5 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. I agree with everything you said but either comment, rebuke or correct.... Or Phuk off. No to derail but... I think I love you TXBO
I love you too, Wild. | |
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Purveyor of unconventional wisdom
Posts: 17112
Location: CA | Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 9:57 PM T turning 3 - 2013-12-18 9:44 PM In my opinion the attitude of my way or the highway concerning faith is as false as it gets. God guides us where we are to be. God helps us along. There have been some great opinions on this thread. What resognates with people is what will start them on the road to their spirituality. The path may not be like any others, or it could be exactly the same. But if someone reads something on here that leads them to wonder about more, to seek knowledge, or even just to open their heart seeking what is missing, it is a great thing!
There is only one way to heaven, and no other. I don't want resonate anything other than that. A Christian doesn't want to get people thinking about what is missing. If they don't know Jesus as savior, that is what is missing. Time may not allow for the nonbeliever to wonder aimlessly through life to hopefully stumble on the answer. Jesus is the answer. Corinthians 1:18 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I was pushed, manhandled, folks even tried to manipulate me into accepting Jesus into my heart. It wasn't until a beautiful lady eased my way there. You can stomp your foot and pound your fist making your point, and all it will do is back folks away that have had bad experiences with false Christians. Sometimes you have to walk the walk, be understanding and available as people find their way. | |
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Total Germophobe
Posts: 6443
Location: Montana | Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 8:57 PM T turning 3 - 2013-12-18 9:44 PM In my opinion the attitude of my way or the highway concerning faith is as false as it gets. God guides us where we are to be. God helps us along. There have been some great opinions on this thread. What resognates with people is what will start them on the road to their spirituality. The path may not be like any others, or it could be exactly the same. But if someone reads something on here that leads them to wonder about more, to seek knowledge, or even just to open their heart seeking what is missing, it is a great thing!
There is only one way to heaven, and no other. I don't want resonate anything other than that. A Christian doesn't want to get people thinking about what is missing. If they don't know Jesus as savior, that is what is missing. Time may not allow for the nonbeliever to wonder aimlessly through life to hopefully stumble on the answer. Jesus is the answer. Corinthians 1:18 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
You are right. And you have a Proof Source to back you up (the Bible).
T_Turning_3: You have soem uplifting words and have a right about having it pounded into you verses someone gently telling you. It follows a 1st Corinthians verse I just read this morning even I think: "What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?" 1st Corinthians 4:21
I think that is the way people need to approach...in love and with a gentle spirit...the Spirit of God. I think it follows the line of you can catch more flies with honey...
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@%&# stirrer and Saint | The spirit of the Holy Ghost testifies of truth! | |
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Posts: 1343
Location: East Texas | Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 9:02 PM
horsesinharleton - 2013-12-19 1:58 AM
God gave each of us the right of free will. He did not make us His puppets to dangle around and do what He wants us to do. He gives each of us a choice. The rapist chooses to rape; the murder chooses to kill; the liar choose to lie; the thief chooses to steal and so on and so on. That same free will gives us the choice to love God and follow His plan for our lives. Have you ever wanted someone to love you but they didn’t? Could you MAKE them love you? Of course not. His will for each of our lives is to love Him; love each other, and live a life helping others and making good choices. But because of that free will, some choose to love God and accept his forgiveness through a personal relationship with Jesus, and some choose to not accept the forgiveness He offers. Because God is God and His ways are higher than ours, we will never – this side of heaven – understand WHY he allows bad things to happen, but He does. Where is He when those bad things are happening? On His throne in heaven… the same place He was when your sin and my sin nailed His Son to the cross to die a cruel and long-suffering death for every rotten thing you and I have ever done. Did Jesus deserve that? Absolutely not… but He did it for us because that’s how much He loves us. So, when bad things happen to good people, just remember that the worst happened to His precious Son. God knew that His Son would pay the ultimate sacrifice for us when He made Adam and Eve and they used their free will to sin. God made this plan to save us from eternal separation from Him before He ever set the world into motion. All we have to do is accept, by faith. He has done all the rest!
The whole Jesus died for our sins thing is so absurd. First, he didn't really die, did he? Second, God, being the omnipotent and omniscient being that he is purported to be- couldn't find a way to forgive us of our sins without the twisted soap opera drama?
And then there is the whole concept of Jesus being the worldly manifestation of God, hence:
I don't have to defend God or the Bible... He is plenty capable of taking care of Himself. What amazes me though is the lengths non-believers like yourself will go to try and disproof something they don't believe in to start with. In the end, "Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Do it now because He loves you and wants a relationship with you. That free will choice is, of course, yours to make. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 855
Location: Ok | Well alot of things actually.
A little background. I grew up in church, God fearing home and family. Very active. At 17 I was a litte rebellious in my attitude towards God, he was real to me but not real enough that I wanted to live my life for him. (we had been through several preachers, couldn't keep a youth pastor and so forth) Not to mention there were all of those 'fake nice' people in the church. (Small town, roll the sidewalks up kind of thing).
I grew alot in the Lord my freshman year of college but had so many questions. There was so much struggle that my dear friends were going through I just kept asking God 'why'. I went to college as a Biology major. As you know most of my teachers were agnostic or athiest. Actually one of mine was an ex-baptist preacher. He learned to hate me real quick. Some didn't care what we believed but this one in particular didn't want a person in his class to leave believing in a higher power. He wasn't just teaching us science, he was teaching us HIS beliefs on why God wasn't real and was some made up source of hope for the weak. His lectures and test were all carefully crafted and structured to change our oppinion on the subject.
At first I hated him. Later I learned to have compassion for him and understand his side of the story. I stilll pray for him when he crosses my mind. The funny thing was that the more I learned about Science, the more I believed. I expected to have the complete opposite effect. I think it is different for everyone because we are all made up differently. I think some of us find God in the eyes of a child or a loved one. Others find him in the middle of a crisis and yet others through a sense of peace and knowing that overwhelms them.
My bioilogy background really opened my eyes to see the world in a new way....a way that made God more real to me than he had ever been before and my relationship has since grown. I've seen actual 'miracles' happen in my life and in the lives of those aroudn me. Do bad things happen, yeah, they do. I could give account after account of why God is who he says he is to me but that would take up even more space on this thread that I've already clogged up! Haha.
Feel free to PM, or even call me. There are two songs that sum up how I found God in my life. I'll post the links below. I encourage you to keep asking questions and seeking. It is healthy :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQAPMRpNoe8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AXD3Xq6Z6U | |
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Veteran
Posts: 154
Location: Tennessee | My God is an awesome God! I was on a path of self destruction, and oh how he SAVED me! I would just like to share my testimony.....take from it what you will.... I had began to focus my life on partying, drinking, drugs, and having realtionships with people who were only toxic to the "luke warm" relationship I once held with the Lord! My whole world seemed to be spiraling into a dark black hole! I was living with a man who treated me HORRIBLE, I questioned everything I had once believed in and most of all if God even existed. The one person that I could always turn to and trust, my mother, was diagnosed with terminal cancer. I was broke, had recieved a notice of eviction from the home that we rented and was unable to afford college anymore, and unfortunately had to drop out. I had reached the point where I did not believe that my life could get any worse...... One day as I was feeling sorry for myself and all that I was going through my heart began to feel like it was about to pound out of my chest (those that know the Lord know the feeling I am referring to), I knew God was speaking to me. I broke down and just prayed, I prayed for forgivness, I prayed for guidence, and for the Lord to just "take the wheel and show me the way"! My life would never be the same after that day! I was able to get out of that horrible relationship, be able to make many happy memories and share long talks with my mother before she went to be with Jesus. I found my soul mate, got married, am now part of a family that has so much love for me, had a beautiful son who has been such a blessing, built a new home on a beautiful piece of land and continue to build the dream ranch I have always wanted, and the blessing just keep rolling in. Did I mention all this has been in a 3 year period! I can't say it enough My God is an awesome God! I am not saying that if you believe you will be blessed with everything you ever wanted. I am only saying that your way is not always the way that the Lord has planned for you! There are still times in my life that things are not perfect and things go wrong, but I KNOW the Lord will help me through it all! He ALWAYS does! So to answer the question....What makes me believe?....... FAITH!!!! HE IS REAL & HE WILL RETURN!!! | |
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Expert
Posts: 1343
Location: East Texas | S_W - 2013-12-19 10:49 AM
My God is an awesome God! I was on a path of self destruction, and oh how he SAVED me! I would just like to share my testimony.....take from it what you will.... I had began to focus my life on partying, drinking, drugs, and having realtionships with people who were only toxic to the "luke warm" relationship I once held with the Lord! My whole world seemed to be spiraling into a dark black hole! I was living with a man who treated me HORRIBLE, I questioned everything I had once believed in and most of all if God even existed. The one person that I could always turn to and trust, my mother, was diagnosed with terminal cancer. I was broke, had recieved a notice of eviction from the home that we rented and was unable to afford college anymore, and unfortunately had to drop out. I had reached the point where I did not believe that my life could get any worse...... One day as I was feeling sorry for myself and all that I was going through my heart began to feel like it was about to pound out of my chest (those that know the Lord know the feeling I am referring to), I knew God was speaking to me. I broke down and just prayed, I prayed for forgivness, I prayed for guidence, and for the Lord to just "take the wheel and show me the way"! My life would never be the same after that day! I was able to get out of that horrible relationship, be able to make many happy memories and share long talks with my mother before she went to be with Jesus. I found my soul mate, got married, am now part of a family that has so much love for me, had a beautiful son who has been such a blessing, built a new home on a beautiful piece of land and continue to build the dream ranch I have always wanted, and the blessing just keep rolling in. Did I mention all this has been in a 3 year period! I can't say it enough My God is an awesome God! I am not saying that if you believe you will be blessed with everything you ever wanted. I am only saying that your way is not always the way that the Lord has planned for you! There are still times in my life that things are not perfect and things go wrong, but I KNOW the Lord will help me through it all! He ALWAYS does! So to answer the question....What makes me believe?....... FAITH!!!! HE IS REAL & HE WILL RETURN!!!
Amen and Amen to that, Sister!!! Exactly what I am talking about. Using the free will that you had previously been using that was leading you down a path of destruction, then using that same free will choice to believe in faith!! What an awesome testimony... continued blessings to you!! | |
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Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| Just Bring It - 2013-12-19 4:17 PM Bigfoot - 2013-12-18 6:05 PM Many comments here scream that many of you have never read the scriptures, but claim to be a believer. Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work. No one came on here to be judged. Everyone on here is learning. Believing does not mean you are right in every way. Also who is to say who is right? Believing is just that....BELIEVING. I bet you believe surgery can save lives though you have never read a medical book. I will not judge others as I hope they will not judge me. Questions are asked by those who want to learn more.
Simply Awesome! | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| For someone like myself, that believes the bible is Infact the inspired word of God, and every verse in it is God's honest truth about everything from the plan of salvation, to how I should live my day to day life. Many things written here strike me as coming from 1. non believers, and 2. People proclaiming a faith, that they do not understand themselves.
Yesterday I was asked to point out what I was talking about. In an hour, I only made it through 3 and 1/2 pages. Things that jumped out at me.
Comments about:
Reincarnation
Religion turns people off
Bible is proven wrong
Mistakes in the bible
People supporting atheism
Agnostic beliefs
People proclaiming a belief, when they admittedly don't read the scriptures, and attend no organized worship service.
It is clearly written in the bible:
Romans 14:11 says it is written “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.
The day will come, when we all either express a faith in Jesus, or regret that we did not when the chance was there.
Many here have said that I am too pointed with my beliefs. That is true, and thank you for the complement. Because there is only "one truth". | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Bigfoot - 2013-12-19 2:56 PM For someone like myself, that believes the bible is Infact the inspired word of God, and every verse in it is God's honest truth about everything from the plan of salvation, to how I should live my day to day life. Many things written here strike me as coming from 1. non believers, and 2. People proclaiming a faith, that they do not understand themselves. Yesterday I was asked to point out what I was talking about. In an hour, I only made it through 3 and 1/2 pages. Things that jumped out at me. Comments about: Reincarnation Religion turns people off Bible is proven wrong Mistakes in the bible People supporting atheism Agnostic beliefs People proclaiming a belief, when they admittedly don't read the scriptures, and attend no organized worship service. It is clearly written in the bible: Romans 14:11 says it is written “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God. The day will come, when we all either express a faith in Jesus, or regret that we did not when the chance was there. Many here have said that I am too pointed with my beliefs. That is true, and thank you for the complement. Because there is only "one truth".
Religion doesn't turn people off that truly believe in the Lord? You follow all religions? None of them turn you off or make you question their beliefs? How can that be? How can you believe and follow all the Christian religions? That isn't possible. I do not know what religion you are but what if you were raised in a different religion but didn't believe what they were telling you? But because that religion turned you away for awhile you are all of a sudden not a true believer? Religions are manmade and many are hypocritical.
Which Bible is correct? Like I have said before there are a lot of different versions with different interpretations of the Bible. Are they all correct without any mistakes? Each and every single one?
The atheist and the angostics abviously do not care to be considered believers.....since they are not!
What does "organized worship service" have to do with anything? The Bible says to congregate for worship but why does it have to be an organized worship service? I am sure what you are refering to is church since that is what has been mentioned. My husband and I worship together and sometimes friends. I also see many BHW members congregating and worshipping together on forums. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 816
| Bigfoot - 2013-12-19 2:56 PM For someone like myself, that believes the bible is Infact the inspired word of God, and every verse in it is God's honest truth about everything from the plan of salvation, to how I should live my day to day life. Many things written here strike me as coming from 1. non believers, and 2. People proclaiming a faith, that they do not understand themselves. Yesterday I was asked to point out what I was talking about. In an hour, I only made it through 3 and 1/2 pages. Things that jumped out at me. Comments about: Reincarnation Religion turns people off Bible is proven wrong Mistakes in the bible People supporting atheism Agnostic beliefs People proclaiming a belief, when they admittedly don't read the scriptures, and attend no organized worship service. It is clearly written in the bible: Romans 14:11 says it is written “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God. The day will come, when we all either express a faith in Jesus, or regret that we did not when the chance was there. Many here have said that I am too pointed with my beliefs. That is true, and thank you for the complement. Because there is only "one truth".
I am one that can honestly say that I don't know what to believe. I'm stuck between wanting to and the factual evidence that supports it. How do you reach that type of belief? How do trust what you read in something that has been written so many times? I get frustrated when listening to 101 different ways the bible gets interpreted and just give up on trying to understand. People tell me, "you need to go to church" but why, why can't I have a relationship with God and not go. Why do I need to go somewhere and listen to someone that I may not agree 100% with on their interpretation. Then theirs the forever saying "everything happens for a reason", I can't wrap my head around that one. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| Just bring it,
You've answered a comment with a question. That will always lead to a debate. I will address your questions, although I am sure it will determinate rapidly.
yes. I am a student of all religions. I have chosen one that most closely represents the bible.
Which bible is correct you ask? Which one have you found a mistake in is my question?
Mathew 18:20
20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
It doesn't matter to me where people worship. It should matter to them if they follow the scriptures though.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 766
Location: Texas | I am so thankful that I believe that God love me and Jesus died for me. I not only "believe" but I know that to be true.
When I watched my son's heart beat on a monitor and was told that part was enlarged and he had valve problems and I saw bubbles pass thru because there was a hole in the bottom part of his heart, I didn't pray to anybody but God, in the Name of Jesus. Not only did I pray but I searched my heart to make sure that there was no unforgiveness, bitterness or anything that would hinder my faith.
Either this is real or not. Plain and simple. I laid it out. I did what I knew to do from reading the Word. I wouldn't allow doubt in my heart.
The next month when we went to the hospital so that the doctor could do the transesophageal echocardiogram. He wanted to do this to see how large the hole was and to get a better look at it. He came out earlier than expected. He could not find anything wrong with his heart!
Needless to say my son's heart is perfect. The doctor couldn't find anything wrong with it. The valves work, it isn't enlarged and there is no hole to be found!
And that is just one of the awesome things that has happened in my family.
Yes, it is a choice to believe. But then it goes from believing to knowing and there is no turning back. I love Him and Praise His Name everyday. There is no one like my Jesus!
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| texas taz - 2013-12-19 3:55 PM
I am so thankful that I believe that God love me and Jesus died for me. I not only "believe" but I know that to be true.
When I watched my son's heart beat on a monitor and was told that part was enlarged and he had valve problems and I saw bubbles pass thru because there was a hole in the bottom part of his heart, I didn't pray to anybody but God, in the Name of Jesus. Not only did I pray but I searched my heart to make sure that there was no unforgiveness, bitterness or anything that would hinder my faith.
Either this is real or not. Plain and simple. I laid it out. I did what I knew to do from reading the Word. I wouldn't allow doubt in my heart.
The next month when we went to the hospital so that the doctor could do the transesophageal echocardiogram. He wanted to do this to see how large the hole was and to get a better look at it. He came out earlier than expected. He could not find anything wrong with his heart!
Needless to say my son's heart is perfect. The doctor couldn't find anything wrong with it. The valves work, it isn't enlarged and there is no hole to be found!
And that is just one of the awesome things that has happened in my family.
Yes, it is a choice to believe. But then it goes from believing to knowing and there is no turning back. I love Him and Praise His Name everyday. There is no one like my Jesus!
Good post | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Bigfoot - 2013-12-19 3:39 PM Just bring it, You've answered a comment with a question. That will always lead to a debate. I will address your questions, although I am sure it will determinate rapidly. yes. I am a student of all religions. I have chosen one that most closely represents the bible. Which bible is correct you ask? Which one have you found a mistake in is my question? Mathew 18:20 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” It doesn't matter to me where people worship. It should matter to them if they follow the scriptures though.
I will not debate you because you answered my questions though I still dont understand how you can be a follower of all religions when many of them contradict each other or have falsehoods. 
But anywho.....
One Bible that pops to mind is the New World Translation. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| Just Bring It - 2013-12-19 4:13 PM
Bigfoot - 2013-12-19 3:39 PM Just bring it, You've answered a comment with a question. That will always lead to a debate. I will address your questions, although I am sure it will determinate rapidly. yes. I am a student of all religions. I have chosen one that most closely represents the bible. Which bible is correct you ask? Which one have you found a mistake in is my question? Mathew 18:20 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” It doesn't matter to me where people worship. It should matter to them if they follow the scriptures though.
I will not debate you because you answered my questions though I still dont understand how you can be a follower of all religions when many of them contradict each other or have falsehoods. But anywho..... One Bible that pops to mind is the New World Translation.
I must have misled you I have studied "most" religions. I only follow one. While rereading this thread I got excited. Someone used therm "sola scriptura". It got me thinking perhaps someone else had studied the ancient manuscripts. I see a few post later the same person toldme to phuk off. With contradictions like this, I doubt we will see any closure. Everyone's life experiences are not mine, and mine are not theirs. I just wanted to pass along some scriptures to the lost, or unconcerned. Perhaps my seeds will go somewhere else from now on. The message is strong, perhPs someone will listen else where. | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Bigfoot - 2013-12-19 4:31 PM Just Bring It - 2013-12-19 4:13 PM Bigfoot - 2013-12-19 3:39 PM Just bring it, You've answered a comment with a question. That will always lead to a debate. I will address your questions, although I am sure it will determinate rapidly. yes. I am a student of all religions. I have chosen one that most closely represents the bible. Which bible is correct you ask? Which one have you found a mistake in is my question? Mathew 18:20 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” It doesn't matter to me where people worship. It should matter to them if they follow the scriptures though. I will not debate you because you answered my questions though I still dont understand how you can be a follower of all religions when many of them contradict each other or have falsehoods.
But anywho.....
One Bible that pops to mind is the New World Translation. I must have misled you I have studied "most" religions. I only follow one. While rereading this thread I got excited. Someone used therm "sola scriptura". It got me thinking perhaps someone else had studied the ancient manuscripts. I see a few post later the same person toldme to phuk off. With contradictions like this, I doubt we will see any closure. Everyone's life experiences are not mine, and mine are not theirs. I just wanted to pass along some scriptures to the lost, or unconcerned. Perhaps my seeds will go somewhere else from now on. The message is strong, perhPs someone will listen else where.
Your voice has been heard and appreciated. You just came across as you know best and your way is the only way. You are strong in your beliefs and I admire that greatly! But some are not as strong in their beliefs and have questions. I do not feel people with questions should be judged and be seen as non-believers because of their questions. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 855
Location: Ok | Hollywood's Fan - 2013-12-17 10:57 AM What makes me believe? Certainly not the theories and writings of men. Honestly, I have had God in my heart, always. I never questioned his existance because I have felt his presence since I was a small child. God and religion are two seperate things. Religion is man's way to God, and some try to make it seem very complicated. The bible is God's textbook on life, his gift of a manuscript designed to guide the people he created in having the life he created them to have. Its perfect. Every question that you could ever have about the foundation of life can be found in the Bible. You just have to look for it, and seek the answers.
Men have been trying to disprove the facts of the Bible for years, but still it endures. If not divinely inspired, how could it have stood the test of time all these years? If just a book written by men, why would it not been thrown out years ago as hogwash? If Jesus Christ were just a man, wouldn't he have been forgotten about long ago?
I have a difficult time understanding how some do not believe in God. Look at the wonders of his creation. How complex we are as human beings, the different animal and plant species - each designed with a specific purpose in the food chain. The oceans, the desert, the Grand Canyon, etc., etc., etc. I feel sorry for those who make it their life's work to try and disprove God's existance, when to embrace him and the teachings of his word (the bible) is what leads to a fulfilling and happy life.
And, I wondered reading your post, what exactly has been found that proves the bible to be false?
I like your response. I feel very much the same way. I posted earlier about Biology in college actually bringing me CLOSER to God for the reasons you have stated in the words I could not find.
One thing that really made me say 'wow' (though I was already a believer) was when we had to study the GAIA theory which strongly supports your comments about the food chain and order and so forth. It really kind of brought everything home for me. I remember where I set in that class and I remember how strong the presence of the Holy Spirit was on me that day. I will never forget it.
:-) | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | So we're operating under the theory that the Council of Nicea was God inspired and not working to forward the interests of the organized Church? Because they threw out an awful lot of gospels that were probably a lot closer to the teachings of Jesus than the writings of Paul. Many of them were widely read and important to various church communities. Then the Church proceeded to kill people in the process of wiping out these other gospels, because many groups didn't give up their books willingly. Ok. Gotcha. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Bigfoot - 2013-12-19 4:31 PM.... While rereading this thread I got excited. Someone used therm "sola scriptura". It got me thinking perhaps someone else had studied the ancient manuscripts. I see a few post later the same person toldme to phuk off. With contradictions like this, I doubt we will see any closure. Everyone's life experiences are not mine, and mine are not theirs. I just wanted to pass along some scriptures to the lost, or unconcerned. Perhaps my seeds will go somewhere else from now on. The message is strong, perhPs someone will listen else where.
You're right. That comment was somewhat out of character for me and for that I apologize. I'd argue it's not a contradiction in that all Christians are both saint and sinner making it more reflective that contradictory.
While I absolutely agree with much you say, I found frustration in your approach in trying to bring in lost sheep. That doesn't excuse my breech of ettiquette... For that humbly apologize.
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Veteran
Posts: 142
| Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 5:07 PM So we're operating under the theory that the Council of Nicea was God inspired and not working to forward the interests of the organized Church? Because they threw out an awful lot of gospels that were probably a lot closer to the teachings of Jesus than the writings of Paul. Many of them were widely read and important to various church communities. Then the Church proceeded to kill people in the process of wiping out these other gospels, because many groups didn't give up their books willingly. Ok. Gotcha. Which gospels were closer to the teachings of Jesus that were thrown out? From what I understand the cannonized gospels are such because they focus on the incarnation death and resurection of Jesus. These are the most basic and important truths of Christian/apostolic doctine that existed from the day of pentecost and going back in time through the old Testament (which gnostics didnt read either) A lot of the other gnostic "gospels" deny these truths. Even some of the earliest Bishops commented on some of them that were circulating telling people NOT to read them because they were spurious and many did not come from the apostolic tradidion. Paul understood the old Testament in a new way in light of the risen Christ, and therefore said that anyone who said Christ has not come in the flesh (ie gnostics) were not of God.
ETA - the church existed before the gospels were even written and the church had DOCTRINE, the gospels came out of the tradition of the church and lead us back into it. They need to be understood from within that tradition, The Bishops didnt just decide at the coucil of nicea what that doctrine was. Councils were held because the church is a concilliar church, no one person gets to decide what the truth is, if someone came along teaching foreign doctrine (like arius!) and it started to spread, something had to be done about it to keep unity. Those who didnt agree with the whole were put outside the One Church.
Edited by angel123 2013-12-19 7:52 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| JRC - 2013-12-19 3:37 PM
Bigfoot - 2013-12-19 2:56 PM For someone like myself, that believes the bible is Infact the inspired word of God, and every verse in it is God's honest truth about everything from the plan of salvation, to how I should live my day to day life. Many things written here strike me as coming from 1. non believers, and 2. People proclaiming a faith, that they do not understand themselves. Yesterday I was asked to point out what I was talking about. In an hour, I only made it through 3 and 1/2 pages. Things that jumped out at me. Comments about: Reincarnation Religion turns people off Bible is proven wrong Mistakes in the bible People supporting atheism Agnostic beliefs People proclaiming a belief, when they admittedly don't read the scriptures, and attend no organized worship service. It is clearly written in the bible: Romans 14:11 says it is written “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God. The day will come, when we all either express a faith in Jesus, or regret that we did not when the chance was there. Many here have said that I am too pointed with my beliefs. That is true, and thank you for the complement. Because there is only "one truth".
I am one that can honestly say that I don't know what to believe. I'm stuck between wanting to and the factual evidence that supports it. How do you reach that type of belief? How do trust what you read in something that has been written so many times? I get frustrated when listening to 101 different ways the bible gets interpreted and just give up on trying to understand. People tell me, "you need to go to church" but why, why can't I have a relationship with God and not go. Why do I need to go somewhere and listen to someone that I may not agree 100% with on their interpretation. Then theirs the forever saying "everything happens for a reason", I can't wrap my head around that one.
I posted this verse for you. In no way am I implying that you are not wise. To seek understanding in the bible without going to church would be like homeschooling a 1st grader, but not assisting them with their lessons. just a suggestion. Assuming you belive in the power of prayer. Read this verse with an open mind. Pray for understanding, and then read Mathew, mark, Luke, and John.
The fact that there is a church on every corner (of a different denomination), and umpteen different translations of the bible is very confusing for some people. If you view it as all Christians work for the same man (God), we just cash our check at a different bank, it makes more sense.
Religion can be, and is confusing. Thankfully God made the plan of salvation easy.
James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | angel123 - 2013-12-19 7:14 PM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 5:07 PM So we're operating under the theory that the Council of Nicea was God inspired and not working to forward the interests of the organized Church? Because they threw out an awful lot of gospels that were probably a lot closer to the teachings of Jesus than the writings of Paul. Many of them were widely read and important to various church communities. Then the Church proceeded to kill people in the process of wiping out these other gospels, because many groups didn't give up their books willingly. Ok. Gotcha. Which gospels were closer to the teachings of Jesus that were thrown out? From what I understand the cannonized gospels are such because they focus on the incarnation death and resurection of Jesus. These are the most basic and important truths of Christian/apostolic doctine that existed from the day of pentecost and going back in time through the old Testament (which gnostics didnt read either) A lot of the other gnostic "gospels" deny these truths. Even some of the earliest Bishops commented on some of them that were circulating telling people NOT to read them because they were spurious and many did not come from the apostolic tradidion. Paul understood the old Testament in a new way in light of the risen Christ, and therefore said that anyone who said Christ has not come in the flesh (ie gnostics) were not of God.
Not going to say ALL the discarded ones were valid, but there were hundreds of them My Faith in God is immeasurable. My faith in Man has its limits. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 142
| Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 7:48 PM angel123 - 2013-12-19 7:14 PM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 5:07 PM So we're operating under the theory that the Council of Nicea was God inspired and not working to forward the interests of the organized Church? Because they threw out an awful lot of gospels that were probably a lot closer to the teachings of Jesus than the writings of Paul. Many of them were widely read and important to various church communities. Then the Church proceeded to kill people in the process of wiping out these other gospels, because many groups didn't give up their books willingly. Ok. Gotcha. Which gospels were closer to the teachings of Jesus that were thrown out? From what I understand the cannonized gospels are such because they focus on the incarnation death and resurection of Jesus. These are the most basic and important truths of Christian/apostolic doctine that existed from the day of pentecost and going back in time through the old Testament (which gnostics didnt read either) A lot of the other gnostic "gospels" deny these truths. Even some of the earliest Bishops commented on some of them that were circulating telling people NOT to read them because they were spurious and many did not come from the apostolic tradidion. Paul understood the old Testament in a new way in light of the risen Christ, and therefore said that anyone who said Christ has not come in the flesh (ie gnostics) were not of God.
Quotes from Ireneus below: - notice he speaks of the gnostic gospels coming "much later" and emphasises the unity of the Church in both apostolic sucession and doctinal preaching-
"Thus, the tradition of the apostles, manifest in the whole world, is present in every church to be perceived by all who wish to see the truth. We can enumerate those who were appointed by the apostles as bishops in the churches as their successors even to our time…. "
"And there is Polycarp, who not only was taught by the apostles and conversed with many who had seen the Lord, but also was established by apostles in Asia in the church at Smyrna. …. He always taught the doctrine he had learned from the apostles, which he delivered to the church, and it alone is true. (AH 3.4; Grant p. 126; italics added)"
To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth. (AH 3.3.4; ANF Vol. I p. 416; italics added)
…Clement received the lot of the episcopate; he had seen the apostles and met with them and still had the apostolic preaching in his ears and the tradition before his eyes. He was not alone, for many were then still alive who had been taught by the apostles. (AH 3.3, Grant p. 125)
The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith…. (AH 1.10; (ANF) Vol. 1 p. 330; italics added)
Nor will any one of the rulers in the Churches, however highly gifted he may be in point of eloquence, teach doctrine different from these (for no one is greater than the Master…. (AH 1.12; ANF Vol. 1 p. 331; italics added)
Having received this preaching and this faith, as I have said, the Church, although scattered in the whole world, carefully preserves it, as if living in one house. She believes these things [everywhere] alike, as if she had but one heart and one soul, and preaches them harmoniously, teaches them, and hands them down, as if she had but one mouth. (AH 1.10.2; Richardson 1970:360; cf. ANF Vol. 1 p. 331; italics added)
…if the apostles had not left us the scriptures, would it not be best to follow the sequence of the tradition which they transmitted to those whom they entrusted the churches?
It behoves us, therefore, to avoid their (Gnostics) doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures.
All the others who are called Gnostics originated from Menander the disciple of Simon, as we have shown, and each of them appeared as the father and mystagogue of the opinion he adopted. All these arose in their apostasy much later, in the middle of the times of the church. (AH 3.4.3; Grant p. 128; italics added) All these are much later than the bishops to whom the apostles entrusted the churches, and we have set this forth with all due diligence in the third book. All the aforementioned heretics, since they are blind to the truth, have to go to one side or the other off the road and therefore the traces of their doctrine are scattered without agreement or logic
Nor will any one of the rulers in the Churches, however highly gifted he may be in point of eloquence, teach doctrine different from these (for no one is greater than the Master…. (AH 1.12; ANF Vol. 1 p. 331; italics added) This is a complete proof that the life-giving faith is one and the same, preserved and transmitted in truth in the church from the apostles up till now. (AH 3.3.2; Grant p. 125; italics added)
Edited by angel123 2013-12-19 8:27 PM
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Thank you for that. I can understand the teachings being preserved through a careful oral tradition until they were written. And can even make the leap of faith that God was working through them in that way. To me tho, Paul's writings don't jive with the rest of it. And the fact that he didn't know Jesus and yet is given so much credence has always bugged me. I wrote a paper about it in my honors comp class in college for a professor that was catholic. He loved me. Seriously. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 142
| Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 9:15 PM Thank you for that. I can understand the teachings being preserved through a careful oral tradition until they were written. And can even make the leap of faith that God was working through them in that way. To me tho, Paul's writings don't jive with the rest of it. And the fact that he didn't know Jesus and yet is given so much credence has always bugged me. I wrote a paper about it in my honors comp class in college for a professor that was catholic. He loved me. Seriously.
Oh ah I see. I guess that is a lot of the reason I like Orthodoxy (I'm not actually Orthodox though btw) is they dont believe in proof texting because scriptures were written TO a specific people for a specific reason and that is the only way they should be read. They shouldnt be taken out of context and used to justify ones own beliefs because even heresies can be "proven" by proof texting. Paul should be read keeping in mind who he was talking to in his letters (aka his emphasis on faith over works speaking to Jews who were probably very carnal minded and having a hard time leaving the Law behind and turning to Christ) Could he write a letter to a church today, he might start speaking about things like charity, love, helping others. Orthodox doctrines about sin and salvation arent based on Pauls teaching as so many Prodestant churches are. They also arent based on any human ideas of Crime and punishment/ or penal substitiution, though legal language about salvation is Biblical and useful, sin and salvation are also spoken of in other ways as sin being a sickness and salvation being a cure. Thats for those of us who are hard headed - Spiritual Milk lol The reality of Salvation I believe in the Orthodox mind is experiential! | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | angel123 - 2013-12-19 10:04 PM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 9:15 PM Thank you for that. I can understand the teachings being preserved through a careful oral tradition until they were written. And can even make the leap of faith that God was working through them in that way. To me tho, Paul's writings don't jive with the rest of it. And the fact that he didn't know Jesus and yet is given so much credence has always bugged me. I wrote a paper about it in my honors comp class in college for a professor that was catholic. He loved me. Seriously.
That makes a lot more sense to me!!!! | |
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| Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 11:16 PM angel123 - 2013-12-19 10:04 PM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 9:15 PM Thank you for that. I can understand the teachings being preserved through a careful oral tradition until they were written. And can even make the leap of faith that God was working through them in that way. To me tho, Paul's writings don't jive with the rest of it. And the fact that he didn't know Jesus and yet is given so much credence has always bugged me. I wrote a paper about it in my honors comp class in college for a professor that was catholic. He loved me. Seriously.
Billy Graham didn't know Jesus either but he's given a lot of credence, too. He didn't KNOW Jesus in a physical sense but he certainly KNOWS him in his heart. I digress from the OP's question as to what makes us believe but that thought just came in my mind and I thought I'd throw it out there. | |
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 Don't Need Sugar Coating
Posts: 1183
Location: AR & OK | Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 10:18 AM I just want to preface this with, this is not meant to be antagonistic post but instead an opening for casual debate and trying to understand. What makes you believe in the Bible and everything in it when so much has been found that proves a lot of it to be false? What keeps you believing there is a God? Do you take the Bible literally (like Noah's Flood, Genesis, etc) or a loose interpretation? I just got done taking a class that we discussed the evolution of religion and science and it makes me wonder. I was going to ask some of my religious friends but its finals week, everyone is studying and stressed, so not exactly the best time to have deep in depth conversations about faith and religion haha. Again, not meant to be antagonistic so please no fighting just pleasant conversation/debate.
I believe for several reasons but to answer your question there is no other book (Bible) to have so much evidence to back it up.
Israel has tons of evidence of the validity.
I do not have time at this moment (will have to come back later) to list a whole bunch of evidence.
Here is a small list of things found that confirm the people in the Bible.
finding that proved King David lived and was king.
Walls of Jericho
Tombs that have been proven to be so many people named in the Bible.
Scrolls that have been found.
This historians of that day their writings have been found and back up the Bible.
I have got to get to work so I will have to come back to this thread.
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 9:15 PM Thank you for that. I can understand the teachings being preserved through a careful oral tradition until they were written. And can even make the leap of faith that God was working through them in that way. To me tho, Paul's writings don't jive with the rest of it. And the fact that he didn't know Jesus and yet is given so much credence has always bugged me. I wrote a paper about it in my honors comp class in college for a professor that was catholic. He loved me. Seriously.
But Paul did know Jesus. He just met him in a very different way. This is what Jesus said to Ananius (a disciple) about Paul.
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” (Acts 9:15, 16 ESV) | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 7:48 PM angel123 - 2013-12-19 7:14 PM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 5:07 PM So we're operating under the theory that the Council of Nicea was God inspired and not working to forward the interests of the organized Church? Because they threw out an awful lot of gospels that were probably a lot closer to the teachings of Jesus than the writings of Paul. Many of them were widely read and important to various church communities. Then the Church proceeded to kill people in the process of wiping out these other gospels, because many groups didn't give up their books willingly. Ok. Gotcha. Which gospels were closer to the teachings of Jesus that were thrown out? From what I understand the cannonized gospels are such because they focus on the incarnation death and resurection of Jesus. These are the most basic and important truths of Christian/apostolic doctine that existed from the day of pentecost and going back in time through the old Testament (which gnostics didnt read either) A lot of the other gnostic "gospels" deny these truths. Even some of the earliest Bishops commented on some of them that were circulating telling people NOT to read them because they were spurious and many did not come from the apostolic tradidion. Paul understood the old Testament in a new way in light of the risen Christ, and therefore said that anyone who said Christ has not come in the flesh (ie gnostics) were not of God.
They weren't really discarded, they just weren't canonized. To be canonized, they had to be able to authenticate that they came from a direct witness. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | TXBO - 2013-12-20 8:00 AM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 9:15 PM Thank you for that. I can understand the teachings being preserved through a careful oral tradition until they were written. And can even make the leap of faith that God was working through them in that way. To me tho, Paul's writings don't jive with the rest of it. And the fact that he didn't know Jesus and yet is given so much credence has always bugged me. I wrote a paper about it in my honors comp class in college for a professor that was catholic. He loved me. Seriously.
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” (Acts 9:15, 16 ESV )
But Paul's writings were so different from those who witnessed the teachings of Jesus, that was always a sticking point to me. Angel123 addressed it for me much better than anyone has before, saying that you have to take into account *who* he was writing to. But that is not how those things are being taught in most of our churches. And when people quote things from the Bible to justify a viewpoint I don't agree with, they are inevitably quoting Paul. Someone quoted him the other day to justify telling women to stop discussing religion on the internet, to go home and talk to their husbands about it. Screw that. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | TXBO - 2013-12-20 8:06 AM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 7:48 PM angel123 - 2013-12-19 7:14 PM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 5:07 PM So we're operating under the theory that the Council of Nicea was God inspired and not working to forward the interests of the organized Church? Because they threw out an awful lot of gospels that were probably a lot closer to the teachings of Jesus than the writings of Paul. Many of them were widely read and important to various church communities. Then the Church proceeded to kill people in the process of wiping out these other gospels, because many groups didn't give up their books willingly. Ok. Gotcha. Which gospels were closer to the teachings of Jesus that were thrown out? From what I understand the cannonized gospels are such because they focus on the incarnation death and resurection of Jesus. These are the most basic and important truths of Christian/apostolic doctine that existed from the day of pentecost and going back in time through the old Testament (which gnostics didnt read either) A lot of the other gnostic "gospels" deny these truths. Even some of the earliest Bishops commented on some of them that were circulating telling people NOT to read them because they were spurious and many did not come from the apostolic tradidion. Paul understood the old Testament in a new way in light of the risen Christ, and therefore said that anyone who said Christ has not come in the flesh (ie gnostics) were not of God.
They were not only discarded, but systematically destroyed. Where are they now, other than the ones that were hidden to escape destruction and then dug up accidentally in modern times? | |
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Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-20 9:08 AM TXBO - 2013-12-20 8:00 AM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 9:15 PM Thank you for that. I can understand the teachings being preserved through a careful oral tradition until they were written. And can even make the leap of faith that God was working through them in that way. To me tho, Paul's writings don't jive with the rest of it. And the fact that he didn't know Jesus and yet is given so much credence has always bugged me. I wrote a paper about it in my honors comp class in college for a professor that was catholic. He loved me. Seriously.
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” (Acts 9:15, 16 ESV )
Wasn't Paul a misogynist? | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-20 8:08 AM TXBO - 2013-12-20 8:00 AM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 9:15 PM Thank you for that. I can understand the teachings being preserved through a careful oral tradition until they were written. And can even make the leap of faith that God was working through them in that way. To me tho, Paul's writings don't jive with the rest of it. And the fact that he didn't know Jesus and yet is given so much credence has always bugged me. I wrote a paper about it in my honors comp class in college for a professor that was catholic. He loved me. Seriously.
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” (Acts 9:15, 16 ESV )
It's good to realize who Paul was talking to and the traditions of the time he was talking but also realize he was talking to us.
Paul's letter the Romans is considered the constitution of Christianity by many. St Augustine's conversion was a result of opening the Bible to Romans and starting to read.
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | IMO, yes he was! | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Murphy - 2013-12-20 8:13 AM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-20 9:08 AM TXBO - 2013-12-20 8:00 AM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 9:15 PM Thank you for that. I can understand the teachings being preserved through a careful oral tradition until they were written. And can even make the leap of faith that God was working through them in that way. To me tho, Paul's writings don't jive with the rest of it. And the fact that he didn't know Jesus and yet is given so much credence has always bugged me. I wrote a paper about it in my honors comp class in college for a professor that was catholic. He loved me. Seriously.
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” (Acts 9:15, 16 ESV )
Lol! No Paul wasn't. Paul's one job was to spread the word of salvation through Jesus. He didn't want to start controversies that would detract from that goal by revolutionizing traditions of the day. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | This is OT, but I think you all would enjoy the music of Mumford & Sons.
Interesting lyrics and many songs have a God-related theme, Specifically "Sigh No More" which also quotes The Bard in a very cool way...plus the music is awesome (as I like the acoustic/folk type sound).
anyway, carry on. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 142
| TXBO - 2013-12-20 8:25 AM Murphy - 2013-12-20 8:13 AM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-20 9:08 AM TXBO - 2013-12-20 8:00 AM Three 4 Luck - 2013-12-19 9:15 PM Thank you for that. I can understand the teachings being preserved through a careful oral tradition until they were written. And can even make the leap of faith that God was working through them in that way. To me tho, Paul's writings don't jive with the rest of it. And the fact that he didn't know Jesus and yet is given so much credence has always bugged me. I wrote a paper about it in my honors comp class in college for a professor that was catholic. He loved me. Seriously.
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” (Acts 9:15, 16 ESV )
Good point TXBO. I copied a bit of the interview from the podcast link I posted earlier below explaining how the Church views "inspiration". The Bible shouldnt be read as if it were a Koran fallen from heaven, or somehow dictated word for word.
Mr. Allen: Interesting. We’ll come back to the development of doctrine in a bit. You know, we hear, and most professing Christians believe, that the holy Scriptures are “inspired.” How does the Orthodox Church understand divine inspiration? Was it considered something that came down direct from God without human filters, like the Koran is supposed to have done, or was it received through fallible human beings, etc., etc.?
Dr. Constantinou: inspiration is understood in the Church as a kind of enlightenment of the individual. The Holy Spirit enlightens their mind. So it’s not that it was filtered. It’s that the expression of the truths which are in the Scriptures, the human author was enlightened toward an understanding and toward an expression of those truths. Basically the Holy Spirit enlightens the person. It doesn’t dictate word-for-word if that’s what you’re getting at…
Mr. Allen: That’s what I was getting at.
Dr. Constantinou: ...word-for-word what was to be written. Now, there were some early Christian writers like Origen who really believed it was a very mechanical thing: the Holy Spirit dictated word-for-word. Most of the Fathers didn’t seem to express it that way. Instead, they recognized that there’s a human component in the Scriptures. So the Holy Spirit enlightens the human author, but they never lose consciousness. They’re not possessed by the Spirit. They’re not like a conduit for the Spirit. They retain all of their human concepts. They remain part of their culture. They retain a lot of their ideas, but their thinking is enlightened by the Spirit.
There is a synergy. There is a cooperation between God the Holy Spirit and the human author, who expresses it in their own particular way, and they have to do that, because they’re speaking, first of all, to the people of their times. If they don’t maintain their own identity as a person of their age, then how can they possibly convey that to the audience that they’re trying to reach? | |
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Miracle in the Making
Posts: 4013
| i believe because i believe my mom died last night i belive that she went home with my gram and graps and the rest of my family
i belive the LORD is my God even though i wonder why it took so long to take my mom so she was not in pain
i belive when i die i will go home to my lord | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| vjls - 2013-12-20 11:46 AM i believe because i believe my mom died last night i belive that she went home with my gram and graps and the rest of my family
i belive the LORD is my God even though i wonder why it took so long to take my mom so she was not in pain
i belive when i die i will go home to my lord
I'm sorry for your loss. | |
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | vjls - 2013-12-20 11:46 AM i believe because i believe my mom died last night i belive that she went home with my gram and graps and the rest of my family
i belive the LORD is my God even though i wonder why it took so long to take my mom so she was not in pain
i belive when i die i will go home to my lord
Many prayers for you & your family | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | vjls - 2013-12-20 11:46 AM i believe because i believe my mom died last night i belive that she went home with my gram and graps and the rest of my family
i belive the LORD is my God even though i wonder why it took so long to take my mom so she was not in pain
i belive when i die i will go home to my lord
I'm so sorry for your loss, Vicky. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | I am so sorry for your loss. | |
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| So very sorry for your loss. | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| SO sorry for your loss. I wish that I had the comfort of belief....... | |
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Purveyor of unconventional wisdom
Posts: 17112
Location: CA | vjls - 2013-12-20 11:46 AM
i believe because i believe my mom died last night i belive that she went home with my gram and graps and the rest of my family
i belive the LORD is my God even though i wonder why it took so long to take my mom so she was not in pain
i belive when i die i will go home to my lord
I pray for peace for you and yours.... | |
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Purveyor of unconventional wisdom
Posts: 17112
Location: CA | rodeoveteran - 2013-12-20 12:10 PM SO sorry for your loss. I wish that I had the comfort of belief.......
I will wish with you, and pray for you. Not for any great thing, but for peace, love and understanding. Wait...those are great things. :) | |
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 Potato Soup Queen
Location: Alabama | I have not read all of this, but, to answer the OP's question...I believe in the bible simply put because!
1) I have FAITH that GOD exists and we were created by HIM
2) A loving GOD who I believe to be organized (I mean how else can you create all that he has) obviously, gives us guidelines to live our lives by.
3) The bible, written in so many different languages, for so many different religious organizations, still remains whole and passes on the same message to all...no man could do that..so it must be inspired by GOD. Now, how we all interpret it is a whole 'nother story. | |
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