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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| After looking at the new heritage place cataloge and thinking about a few threads on BHW lately, it got me thinking...There has several threads on here that have really been touting the importance of the mare. Here is a chart I made of the top 20 runners for 2013. It includes the horses earnings and the dam and sire earnings. Also the averages of different catagories. I think mare power is important, but in the top 5 the horses sires out earned the mares by 20X's. Be careful not to let the top 4 know that it is all about the mare, they might stop running so hard!
You tell me what you think?
Edited by Whiteboy 2013-12-18 5:09 PM
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 Midget Lover
   
Location: Kentucky | I'm assuming because the sire can have a huge foal crop, so his odds of having a performance proven foal is much greater than a mare who can only have 1 foal (unless ET) a year. | |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| | Horse | Earnings | Dam Earning | Sire Earnings | | Handsome Jack Flash | $1,482,271 | $108 | $969,828 | | Feature Hero | $1,362,263 | $23,410 | $668,633 | | Wicked Courage | $819,670 | $30,301 | $1,616,938 | | Foose Cash Sr | $819,670 | $30,301 | $1,616,938 | | Five Bar Cartel | $654,368 | $187,109 | $557,142 | | Bon Accord | $576,238 | $5,979 | $178,606 | | Ms First Prize Rose | $543,595 | $415,047 | $557,142 | | Viva Mi Corazon | $515,369 | $196,578 | $857,256 | | Last to Fire | $1,087,545 | $168,301 | $94,280 | | Turbulent Times | $503,859 | $46,810 | $70,554 | | Ol Time Preacher Man | $503,222 | $50,910 | $136,123 | | Matarabi | $1,321,930 | $109,005 | $687,184 | | Reagle Eagle | $458,640 | $168,135 | $1,387,453 | | Kates Dynasty | $454,090 | $65,580 | $1,173,001 | | Houdini | $448,374 | $36,758 | $668,633 | | Skuze Please | $428,234 | $14,246 | $305,250 | | Big Biz Perry | $424,850 | $25,260 | $687,184 | | You N How Many More | $399,653 | $66,531 | $52,783 | | Point Break Dash | $411,927 | $73,706 | $857,256 | | Wagon Tales | $386,061 | $30,044 | $889,581 | | Top 5 Avg | $1,027,648 | $54,246 | $1,085,896 | | Top 10 Avg | $836,485 | $110,394 | $718,732 | | Top 20 Avg | $680,091 | $87,206 | $701,588 | Hopefully this one is easier to read. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 591
| Given that a sire can have hundreds of foals in their lifetime and a mare can have 1 (or 2 with ET) per year, having a stallion with 5 top money earners is not nearly as impressive as having a mare with 5 top money earners. | |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| The number of money earners is not the point. The earning strength of sire vs. dam is. There are several instances where the dam had weak earnings and still produced successful runners. Is sire power is the key? | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Look at secretariat he was known as a broodmare sire, his large heart gene is carried on the X chromosome, so only the fillies carried the gene. I know there are confirmed X factor in quarter horses too, ultimately the mare is responsible for this.
Also looking at hypp, and all other genetic disorders are being linked to the stallion
I don't know what the answer is, but more things to think about | |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | Whiteboy - 2013-12-18 3:13 PM The number of money earners is not the point. The earning strength of sire vs. dam is. There are several instances where the dam had weak earnings and still produced successful runners. Is sire power is the key? Yeah earnings matter -- but when you compare 1 earning offspring of a dam against 100 earning offspring of a sire, the law of averages pretty much appear to favor the sire.
Edited by SC Wrangler 2013-12-18 3:31 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | I have always felt that the mare was more important. That being said, we always to a great mare to what we felt was a great stud. | |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| SC Wrangler - 2013-12-18 3:29 PM Whiteboy - 2013-12-18 3:13 PM The number of money earners is not the point. The earning strength of sire vs. dam is. There are several instances where the dam had weak earnings and still produced successful runners. Is sire power is the key? Yeah earnings matter -- but when you compare 1 earning offspring of a dam against 100 earning offspring of a sire, the law of averages pretty much appear to favor the sire.
Averages would look at it as all dams to all sires. Not any 1 in specific. The sires out earn the dams by several times in the average. | |
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Regular
Posts: 75
Location: Iowa | Great topic!! Thanks for the interesting info!! I'm really interested in what others thoughts are on this topic. | |
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 Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | Very interesting, Whiteboy, very interesting indeed........ | |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| | Mr Runaway | $71,908 | $336,588 | $1,642,498 | | Osaka Moon | $71,803 | $352,305 | $27,814 | | Worlds on High | $223,433 | $17,657 | $225,096 | | Streakin Ellen | $109,720 | $80,455 | $225,096 | | Snowboundbeast | $72,131 | $900 | $56,520 | | Win Rabbits fly | $97,269 | $8,323 | $55,658 | | Check my thoughts | $429,434 | $125,920 | $418,528 | | Required fire | $71,235 | $116,509 | $94,280 | | Feature Malinche | $77,500 | $8,748 | $539,327 | | Chico Horse | $0 | $38,029 | $0 | | Hez our Secret | $873,426 | $18,928 | $857,256 | | T boy p | $89,735 | $1,971 | $31,928 | | Eyesa Wagon Maker | $69,293 | $106,494 | $889,581 | | Osbaldo | $305,419 | $0 | $167,275 | | Alis Jumpn | $68,430 | $9,705 | $187,555 | | Quirky | $68,390 | $7,667 | $111,584 | | Loves Brown Sugar | $101,735 | $23,654 | $101,614 | | Daltsguninforsuccess | $67,637 | $20,796 | $181,497 | | Honoroso | $89,329 | $0 | $55,658 | | Lavish Susan | $115,298 | $25,601 | $889,044 | | Bottom 20 Avg | $153,656 | $65,013 | $337,890 | | Bottom 10 Avg | $184,869 | $21,482 | $347,299 | | Bottom 5 Avg | $88,478 | $15,544 | $267,879 |
The bottom are the bottom 20 of the top 200 horses haha.
Edited by Whiteboy 2013-12-18 5:09 PM
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 Saint Stacey
| I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
Instead of looking at the earnings of the sire and dam, maybe you should try adding up all the earnings that the sire has produce and divide it by the total number of foals.
Do the same for the dam.
You have to have strong horses throughout the pedigree, both on the top and on the bottem to increase the odds of getting a great performer.
The greatest sire in the world can only do so much when crossed on a mediocre mare. The reverse is also true. | |
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Saint Stacey
| If you look at First Moon Flash, he did sire Handsome Jack Flash that did win over $1.4 million. His next highest earner is only $179,118 followed by $53,695. So in my mind, while he is a nice horse.... he isn't a standout producer yet.
Granted he is still young and might blow everything out of the water in the next year with the ones that hit the track.....
Edited by SKM 2013-12-18 5:27 PM
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| SKM - 2013-12-18 5:17 PM I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
Instead of looking at the earnings of the sire and dam, maybe you should try adding up all the earnings that the sire has produce and divide it by the total number of foals.
Do the same for the dam.
You have to have strong horses throughout the pedigree, both on the top and on the bottem to increase the odds of getting a great performer.
The greatest sire in the world can only do so much when crossed on a mediocre mare. The reverse is also true.
I agree you need strong horses throughout the pedigree. Your suggestion of adding up the earnings of the produce and dividing by the number of foals is a fine suggestion, but that would prove the most potent dams and sires and not answer the general question. Maybe it cant be answered. In the heritage sale there are some horses that really should have done something by pedigree. Incredibly strong sire and dam, and still nothing. There has to be more to it than pure luck. | |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| SKM - 2013-12-18 5:24 PM If you look at First Moon Flash, he did sire Handsome Jack Flash that did win over $1.4 million. His next highest earner is only $179,118 followed by $53,695. So in my mind, while he is a nice horse.... he isn't a standout producer yet.
Granted he is still young and might blow everything out of the water in the next year with the ones that hit the track.....
And look at the dam line. Not much mare there. Whats with that? | |
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Saint Stacey
| And if you don't want to count the mare power... then you'd better look at the dam of Valient Hero, Captain Courage, Corona Cartel, Corona Czech, Count Corona, Mighty Coron, King Corona, etc... etc... etc...
Edited by SKM 2013-12-18 5:34 PM
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Saint Stacey
| Whiteboy - 2013-12-18 4:29 PM SKM - 2013-12-18 5:24 PM If you look at First Moon Flash, he did sire Handsome Jack Flash that did win over $1.4 million. His next highest earner is only $179,118 followed by $53,695. So in my mind, while he is a nice horse.... he isn't a standout producer yet.
Granted he is still young and might blow everything out of the water in the next year with the ones that hit the track..... And look at the dam line. Not much mare there. Whats with that?
It can happen from time to time. Look at the dam of Moon Lark and also look at Super De Kas. | |
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Saint Stacey
| Whiteboy - 2013-12-18 4:28 PM SKM - 2013-12-18 5:17 PM I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
Instead of looking at the earnings of the sire and dam, maybe you should try adding up all the earnings that the sire has produce and divide it by the total number of foals.
Do the same for the dam.
You have to have strong horses throughout the pedigree, both on the top and on the bottem to increase the odds of getting a great performer.
The greatest sire in the world can only do so much when crossed on a mediocre mare. The reverse is also true. I agree you need strong horses throughout the pedigree. Your suggestion of adding up the earnings of the produce and dividing by the number of foals is a fine suggestion, but that would prove the most potent dams and sires and not answer the general question. Maybe it cant be answered. In the heritage sale there are some horses that really should have done something by pedigree. Incredibly strong sire and dam, and still nothing. There has to be more to it than pure luck.
You could have a great horse, but if it gets in the hands of a poor trainer, then it only looks mediocre.
You can also have a great horse. But if their mind isn't on business then they won't look too spectacular.
There are simply too many variables when it comes to the whole business of running horses and success. I've seen great horses look just okay because of sheer bad luck. | |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| SKM - 2013-12-18 5:33 PM And if you don't want to count the mare power... then you'd better look at the dam of Valient Hero, Captain Courage, Corona Cartel, Corona Czech, Count Corona, Mighty Coron, King Corona, etc... etc... etc...
But then look at sizzling lil. I'm not trying to discount mare power, I just think there is more to it. Other place where you might get more bang for you buck. Whether that be sire, training, feeding, I just what the magic combination. lol | |
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 Canine Carryout Queen
Location: Oklahoma | I feel they are both important... 50/50 equal | |
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Saint Stacey
| Whiteboy - 2013-12-18 4:46 PM SKM - 2013-12-18 5:33 PM And if you don't want to count the mare power... then you'd better look at the dam of Valient Hero, Captain Courage, Corona Cartel, Corona Czech, Count Corona, Mighty Coron, King Corona, etc... etc... etc... But then look at sizzling lil. I'm not trying to discount mare power, I just think there is more to it. Other place where you might get more bang for you buck. Whether that be sire, training, feeding, I just what the magic combination. lol
Exactly. Sizzling Lil was a heck of a producer herself. She producer a heck of a producer in Corona Chick. | |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| SKM - 2013-12-18 5:54 PM Whiteboy - 2013-12-18 4:46 PM SKM - 2013-12-18 5:33 PM And if you don't want to count the mare power... then you'd better look at the dam of Valient Hero, Captain Courage, Corona Cartel, Corona Czech, Count Corona, Mighty Coron, King Corona, etc... etc... etc... But then look at sizzling lil. I'm not trying to discount mare power, I just think there is more to it. Other place where you might get more bang for you buck. Whether that be sire, training, feeding, I just what the magic combination. lol
She only produced good money earners when crossed with some of the top producing sires of all time First Down Dash and Chicks Beduino. She may never have produced with a mediocre or even good stallion. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | The Mare has more over all influence. She is the one that passes on a lot of the temperament and behaviors. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1092
Location: OK | Dam. The only reason I think this is X chromosome. I've done a lot of reading on it. A XX mare has a 100% chance of an X baby. A great stallion, being XY, can only pass large heart to his fillies. So he only has a 50% chance of even getting to pass that part of what makes him great. Not saying that's the only thing that makes a horse great, but it sure helps to put great personality and athletic ability in a 454 instead of a 4 banger... Look up The X Factor. There are some articles about it. After I looked it up, I drug out every set of papers on every horse I ever had, and those that traced back to large hearted mares were all stronger horses. Even say, working in the roundpen, I had some who could just go and go and go, some who couldn't and had to have their wind built up. I looked them up and sure enough, the goers were all descendants of large-heart lines. The pea-hearted ones may have had AAA sires, but no mare power. Like I said, brains and attitude is another matter. You can now just do an ekg and find out. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | Both. A stallion has a higher money value do to stud fees. This is why many breeds over emphasize the stallion. True they can flush mares now, but still is not capable of bringing in money. No mare care charges, no chute fees or shipping charges. Plus the cost of buying from a flushed mare is for the more wealthier endowed. While purchasing a stud fee within your budget is doable. For example, I could never afford anything flushed from any mare. I could not afford dash ta fame or Frenchman guy either. But I could find an affordable son and be happy. But, the mare power needs to be there too. If you really want to say it is the stallion only, then I will only accept cross bred stats. Cross a stallion on a different breed shows prolific power to the stallion. | |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
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 Kittahs Make Me Happah
Posts: 1136
Location: Oklahoma | Dam. | |
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| You have to be smart enough to know what you are breeding for to begin with. There are 5-7 specialized conformations in the quarter horse bloodlines that have been bred specifically for certain events over many years to get the traits needed to be top dawg in that event. .. Then you see amateur breeders crisscrossing these bloodlines and ending up with dinky doos and wondering what happened. You cannot build a hotrod out of a Ford Pinto by just adding a steering wheel or a bigger engine ....
On the SIRE side of things ... the stud is the most important .. just say 90% of male horses have been gelded so that leaves only 10% intact that someone saw something they liked or the stallion was so great in his event he was kept to further that sire line.
99.99% of mares are kept regardless of quality and eventually all end up being bred usually with comments like this ... "Sweetest mare ever and I need to find a stallion to give her foals more size, muscling, straighter legs, speed, temperament, overall conformation and on and on and on" ... and spend lots of money on a horse that is totally lacking in the main characteristics they are trying to compete in.
NICKS ....>>>>
This partial statement is so true and horse owners defend themselves when they have mismatched mares and stallions bloodlines thinking they will beat the odds and come up with the exception ...>>>>> since some "A" nicks will never win a race and occasionally and "F" nick will win a stakes race. But it has proven to be a very reliable indictor over past 20 years in a business where looking for the exception instead of the rule is a formula for failure......
This well said research company makes a major point(s) that can save you a lot of money, time and grief just by understanding what they are explaining .... which pertains to any horse you are breeding for a specified event or use .......>>
http://werkhorse.com/faqs/werknickrating.shtml
You also have owners that swear by the kid horse they had as the greatest they ever owned ... that should tell you a lot about the quality of horses they own as adults.
When some thought and research is applied .... the STALLION is used for the greater good in improving your colts even in the different levels of stud fees offered these days. A $1000 stallion fee may be good enough to improve on your $1500 mare's foals but not in the eyes of someone that has a $20,000 mare that has won a lot of money.
There are two old sayings that have more truth in them than meets the eye ..... BLOOD WILL TELL ..... and ... BREED LIKE TO LIKE ...
Prior to the year 2000 barrel racers had learned their ranch horse bred horses did not have the speed needed to take home the money so they crossed them with speed lines they could afford and improved that characteristic and had a winner by just adding that one sire to the foals pedigree.
AFTER the year 2000 several breeders with successful stallions in their area saw they needed more speed in their babies to compete in other states and stepped up their broodmare bands with speed bloodlines. You are now seeing these 12 year old seasoned horses at the NFR, pro rodeos, big and little barrel races... and they are taking home the money.
Today ... you have got to look 10-15 years in the future at what your competition will be riding and find you a stallion that is loaded with both barrel and speed and the same with the dam .... so you have a better chance of getting the genetic makeup in a foal than if you were just breeding a so - so mare to a son of something that has a famous sire ....
Studying the pedigree on your future foal looking for holes in the pedigree is just like driving your brand new truck down a road that has a 100 chug holes in it vs a road with only 1 or 2 chug holes in it ... the likely hood of ending up with a trashed out truck or foal is going down the road or looking at a pedigree with a 100 holes in it ..
As you can see the breeders that have really been working hard to breed specifically for barrel horse, conformation, speed, agility, brains, trainability are beginning to show 4-6-7-8 famous barrel with speed blood lines in the first to fifth generations by breeding carefully chosen sires and mares to form the right barrel horse characteristics in their foals ... ... To do this a breeder may look at the pedigrees and conformations of 100 to 200 mares to enhance the characteristics to fit their breeding program.
As a mare owner you have to respect the stallion owners that have to approve the mares brought to the court of their stallion and be proud if she is accepted since any winners out of his foal crops will affect the eventual price you may get for your foal ....
CHOOSE YOUR STALLIONS CAREFULLY AND THE DAMS OF A FOAL EVEN MORE CAREFULLY .... and there is always this statement of ... last but not least .... LOOK WHO TRAINED AND/OR IS RIDING THE WINNING HORSES (as you already know ... some riders can ride a goat and end up at the pay window)
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2013-12-26 1:17 AM
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Veteran
Posts: 159
Location: Central TX | This is a TOUGH question. because I've seen Dash ta fame go on some no name mares and make a champion and seen a no name stud go on an AMAZING mare and make nothing...Goes both ways. I think its 50/50 | |
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Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | Roll the dice, Whiteboy, roll the dice lol. | |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| LRQHS - 2013-12-26 7:01 AM Roll the dice, Whiteboy, roll the dice lol.
Its a crap shoot anyway, right? | |
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Fire Ant Peddler
Posts: 2881
| Since 50% of the DNA comes from each parent, I would say both. You cannot take a mediocre mare and breed to a quality stallion and expect improvements. The same with a stallion. Why would you even consider breeding a nice mare to a less than average stallion anyway? | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 788
| It is definately both! You will not get a great horse if both dam and sire do not have what it takes. I think the example of a dtf on a no-name mare making a champion means that the mare probly had some really nice qualities that were just not noticable for whatever reason. I have always put a little more emphasis on a great mare simply because you can find a stud any day of the week but to find another good mare takes a lot more time and effort. And I know personally you cant take a mare that has absolutely no barrel horse qualities and breed to a good stud and expect something great. People drive me crazy trying to do it. The reason the barrel horse community has came so far is because of the efforts of so many great horse people who understand this and have taken mares that had the ability and bred to a stud that had supplemental qualities. Sometimes horses that are complete opposites can make the best horses because they can get the best of both worlds, however, this is the same reason we end up with full siblings that cant turn a building or outrun a turtle because they didnt get the same mix and got the bad qualities from both parents. There is no such thing as perfect so every horse has qualities that are not great, where they may have other qualities that make them fantastic. | |
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Who Wants to Trade?
Posts: 4692
| You need both.
You also need to be able to determine what your mare needs and the best stallion to add that.
There are nice mares who do not cross on nice stallions all of the time. There are also some rinky dink stallions who come with runners given the right mare. Breeding is as much an art as it is a science.
I'm a fan of getting the best mares you can and breeding them to the best stallions for them.
If you want to pull out the Heritage catalog - look at the Bobby Cox reduction section - he breeds some super nice horses - he also breeds some that don't pan out the way it looked like they could. It makes for interesting reading! | |
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| What I would really like to see in stallion stats is how many total foals they put on the ground & how many went into training in whatever discipline stats are being gathered for, not just the # of money earners & how much they won.
I think it would be interesting to see how it influenced peoples' breeding decisions if Stallion 1 - 100 foals on the ground, 80 in barrel training, 1 (barrel racing) money earner, $100k total won vs Stallion 2 - 50 foals on the ground, 40 in barrel training, 10 money earners, $100k total won. | |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | There is literally more genetic material on the X side of the equation than the Y. They don't call the string of chromosomes X and Y for giggles. They are literally shaped like an X and Y. There is an extra branch on the X. But I think both parents can and do affect every part of the resulting foal. Including temperment. I have had many full and half siblings and the stallion very much does affect disposition. It's not all the mare. In fact, people who have had several ET foals have told me it's not the recip mare the foals act like; it's the biological parents they act like. So...
All that said, I believe the pedigree of the mare and stallion how they are handled and the way they and the foals are raised, fed, trained are ALL important in the final product. I've seen many mares that haven't done a dang thing themselves due to unfortunate circumstances of birth or handling that become stellar producers and the same with stallions. I want the sire to be a proven horse/sire or be impeccably bred. But even more I want the female side to be just as strong. I'd much rather gamble on a stellar bred animal with the conformation to go with it who didn't get a chance, than a good performer who was a fluke from a mediocre pedigree. The later kind seldom breed true.  | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Good post Barrelhorse USA.
My program has horses with 75-100% speed breeding with a single line of turn. The race lines are compatable those that have proven to cross over to turning barrels. In this way, I'm keeping the speed with enough turn to be easy to train. It's not like you can't train a racehorse to turn but it sure helps when they have the pedigree to come back to you when they are running. Instead of mentally checking out when they are up to full speed.  | |
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Keep me outta the basement
Posts: 1246
| If I'm buying for resale then I go with a sire as most people are more drawn to sires over the dams IMO. For myself for bloodstock I would buy an excellent dam line with a weaker sire opposed to a great sire with no dam line. | |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | SKM - 2013-12-18 3:17 PM I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
Instead of looking at the earnings of the sire and dam, maybe you should try adding up all the earnings that the sire has produce and divide it by the total number of foals.
Do the same for the dam.
You have to have strong horses throughout the pedigree, both on the top and on the bottem to increase the odds of getting a great performer.
The greatest sire in the world can only do so much when crossed on a mediocre mare. The reverse is also true.
I agree. This would give you a better idea of how the sire is REALLY doing. | |
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Sire or Dam- What matters most?