RunNitroRun - 2014-01-05 1:56 PM

I agree with the above post. The five panel doesn't test for PSSM2. We did the Five panel and horse came back negative. She tied up again so went ahead with the biopsy and she's PSSM2 postive. Lots of money spent and we knew she wasn't HYPP or HERDA by her breeding but thought PSSM.

Hopefully they find a way to test for PSSM2 without a biopsy.

mtcanchazer - 2014-01-05 1:09 PM Honestly, I had never thought of doing a 5 panel test before purchasing or selling a horse. I had a horse that was Impressive bred, and I knew nothing about HYPP until after I owned her (she was N/N, however, she had the test done before we owned her).



As far as AQHA, I was going to order a 5 panel and DNA test for my current mare, but I'm thinking I may skip it for now if it takes 2+ months to get results. Holy cow...a big organization and they can't be quicker about things than that??? 

RacingQH - 2014-01-05 2:41 PM Personally, If I were you, (Actually in a way, I AM you.,  LOL.  I have a mare that needed DNA done for breeding purposes, I just went ahead and did it all at once so it would be DONE.  Besides, if they DO start requiring mares to be done, chances are it will take LONGER as there will be that mane more horses to be tested.) I would "just do it all" if you have the money for it.  It is also cheaper to do it all at once rather than spliting it up.  I wouldn't be surprised if they require mares to be done sooner than later.  And, you never know they COULD raise the price like they do for everything else.

wyoming barrel racer - 2014-01-05 1:07 PM That is exactly my issue with the required 5 panel. I don't raise horses that will ever have HYPP or Herda. I have never had one that had PSSM or any other genetic trait that I know of. We ride hard in the summer but give them a lot of time off in the winter. If they were to tie up, I imagine we would have come across it. I did years ago have a ranch bred broodmare that was cinchy at first and went to Two Eyed Jack. Knowing what I do now, I would suspect she "could" have had PSSM 1 or 2. he would have been spayed if we had known. Her babies were awful so we sold her. I think they have a lot of studying to do before they get this genetic BS all under control. But requiring a person to test stallions/mares and then NOT doing a dang thing if they find positive is stupid. I, as a breeder, would be more than happy to geld/spay if a positive was found. It is the only way to better the breed and eliminate this crap in our bloodlines.

Anniemae - 2014-01-05 2:11 PM If all AQHA stallions and breeding mares were 5 panel tested, isn't that a start in eradicating some of these genetic issues? Shouldn't it be up to the individual breeder/buyer/owner to do what they want with their horses? I don't believe the breed organization should dictate that. With the testing results known, these horses will eventually weed themselves out the gene pool, or be dumped as "grade"...   



Also, I've read where there is embryo testing available for those that have negative/positive horses AND have the financial means to do embryo transfer.  They could test the embryos and only implant those that test negative, and their get from the stock would then be clean. I realize this is a very expensive proposition, but if you are already spending the $ for the embryo transfer program, what's a few $ more for testing?  Just thinking out loud.  



Several univerisities are trying to find the gene(s) responsible for PSSM 2, reasearch takes time and a LOT of $$. They will find it eventually, Just hoping they find it in the next few years.



 

ausranch - 2014-01-05 2:56 PM So when I called the AQHA before Christmas to order a test kit to be sent to the owner of a stud I'm looking at buying and I asked how long it would take and I was given the impression it would be around three weeks . . . I was lied to? Basically? Asking the seller to wait a couple weeks is one thing. Am I really looking at this taking 2 months before we know? That's insane! I can't ask her to wait that long. . . that's not fair to her. Other than finding that little girl at AQHA's supervisor Monday morning, does anyone have suggestions on what I can do? I think I'll go outside into the -50+ wind chill and cheer myself up now . . . .

Anniemae - 2014-01-05 3:11 PM If all AQHA stallions and breeding mares were 5 panel tested, isn't that a start in eradicating some of these genetic issues? Shouldn't it be up to the individual breeder/buyer/owner to do what they want with their horses? I don't believe the breed organization should dictate that. With the testing results known, these horses will eventually weed themselves out the gene pool, or be dumped as "grade"...   



Also, I've read where there is embryo testing available for those that have negative/positive horses AND have the financial means to do embryo transfer.  They could test the embryos and only implant those that test negative, and their get from the stock would then be clean. I realize this is a very expensive proposition, but if you are already spending the $ for the embryo transfer program, what's a few $ more for testing?  Just thinking out loud.  



Several univerisities are trying to find the gene(s) responsible for PSSM 2, reasearch takes time and a LOT of $$. They will find it eventually, Just hoping they find it in the next few years.



 

OregonBR - 2014-01-05 3:02 PM I was told 3-4 days to get it out. 3-5 days to receive it in the mail.  4 weeks to get the results.  Isn't that ridiculous when Animal Genetics can get it done from beginning to end in less than a week? (I've heard) 

wyoming barrel racer - 2014-01-05 3:40 PM I don't really want AQHA or anyone else dictating what we do with our horses, but I think they should do something similar ot HYPP. A H/H cannot be registered or whatever their rule is. It would make people more aware. But to mandate that breeders of over 25 mares etc have to test their stallion for the 5 panel is stupid unless PSSM 2 is included in that. Why are the other 5 more important that PSSM 2? They aren't, but they are from an easy test, and why are just stallions putting 25+ babies on the ground more important? It just takes 1 baby to have issues and all that goes with it. I say test one and all and find a way to get PSSM 2 covered or they are wasting ours and their time. If they continue to allow positive horses to reproduce, again they are wasting time. Do the test and try and eliminate the bad blood from the gene pool. Make them ineligible for registration. Worked well for HYPP  

RacingQH - 2014-01-05 4:43 PM


Funny how it should take 4 WEEKS to get the results when according to U.C Davis, it only takes 2 to 6 days to do the testing!
 

cruisin3 - 2014-01-05 4:42 PMI have a random question. I've done a ton of work with cattle genetic defects (actually the girl working on the horse GBE spent time with us while working on that). In cattle, a person can look up an animal get a detailed pedigree including defect status of all ancestors and if not tested get a probability that animal is positive. Does AQHA not do this? I have not bred anything or been a member for quite awhile so I don't know how the database is set up. I would think this could eliminate a lot of people needing to test as some animals would be free by pedigree. On a side note I looked at Davis' website and the cost if the new gated mutation was 350. Wow! I guess they must have wanted that test pretty bad.

Anniemae - 2014-01-05 4:37 PM

I was answering the OP based on a buyers point of view and the little bit of information I've managed to read on this subject.  It's only MY thoughts/opinion at the moment...

If you were creating the testing rules, how would you go about it?   

If I was trying to create a system to complete the 5 panel testing, i would also have milestones, or requirements in waves, similar to what AQHA is trying to accomplish.  Can you imagine have to test ALL AQHA stallions at once?  Shoot, they are having issues getting out the test kits with just the top stallions, imagine having to test ALL stallions at once! It would be pandemonium!  Testing stallions first make sense since they have the ability to produce multiple foals and MOST breeding mares produce just one foal a year.  

Yes, PSSM2 is an issue, unfortunately a simple DNA hair test isn't available yet. Currently the only way to test for PSSM2 is with a biopsy at $300+ just for the test + vet fees. That is a chunk of change!!!  Maybe AQHA knows researchers have narrowed down the gene that causes PSSM2 or maybe it's an aquired condition, that has no gene per say to test.  Who knows??  

You also have stallion owners very upset that they have to spend $85.00 for the 5 panel test per stallion, can you imagine the uproar over the added biopsy costs?  Holy smokes, it would be chaos!  Finally, add in the unknown factor, many generations of ranchers/breeding programs may have some positives in their stock, it gets to be really scary for them as this is their livelyhood, their name, who they are and have been for generations.

I have no idea what the final answer should be, but at least AQHA is starting somewhere.     

RacingQH - 2014-01-06 1:03 PM

Decided to call AQHA today and see if they had gotten any info back on my mares 5 panel.  They said it was JUST entered into the AQHA system a couple of days ago and I should be getting an email from them.  The guy on the phone told me that she is N/N across the board though! 

ausranch - 2014-01-06 6:31 AM Testing is a good thing. I'm behind the general idea. I feel I mislead by my own association about this situation. Lying. Nope, not a good thing. Either they should figure out what it takes to rush these results (2 weeks) even if they charge extra for that or they should be upfront when someone asks and say it could take 2 months AND you could get it done, unofficially, faster at these labs. In fact, I think all of that information should be easy to find on the AQHA's site. They have made a rule that will have a big impact on stallion sale transactions. They need to be transparent for those of us who are in the midst of those transactions. Buying studs is difficult enough without inadequate information. I'd also like to know why only Davis is allowed for official results. That would just be interesting to know.

annemarea - 2014-01-06 12:49 PM Great news! Very happy for you!

RacingQH - 2014-01-06 4:36 PM I appears to me that the issue is AQHA themselves, NOT U.C Davis.  It took 4 WEEKS from the time I mailed the check until I got the kit in the mail (12-11).  I mailed it to U.C Davis on a Thursday (12-12), according to U.C Davis, they received it the very next Monday (12-16).  They completed all testing and sent the results to AQHA, ELECTRONICALLY, (so no additional delay for sending the info via snail mail.) the same week. According to what I was told by AQHA the results were just entered into their system on 1-4 which was Saturday. (I thought they were closed on the weekend?) That makes it just over 2 WEEKS from the time AQHA got the results until they put them into their system.  Maybe it would have been abit faster if there hadn't been 2 major holidays during those 2 weeks.  Or maybe not.  HAHAHA.  The only reason I have the results today is that I called AQHA.  I was told I should be getting an email with the results.  Wonder how long that will take?  LOL

RacingQH - 2014-01-06 11:03 AM Decided to call AQHA today and see if they had gotten any info back on my mares 5 panel.  They said it was JUST entered into the AQHA system a couple of days ago and I should be getting an email from them.  The guy on the phone told me that she is N/N across the board though! 

RacingQH - 2014-01-06 5:36 PM

I appears to me that the issue is AQHA themselves, NOT U.C Davis.  It took 4 WEEKS from the time I mailed the check until I got the kit in the mail (12-11).  I mailed it to U.C Davis on a Thursday (12-12), according to U.C Davis, they received it the very next Monday (12-16).  They completed all testing and sent the results to AQHA, ELECTRONICALLY, (so no additional delay for sending the info via snail mail.) the same week. According to what I was told by AQHA the results were just entered into their system on 1-4 which was Saturday. (I thought they were closed on the weekend?) That makes it just over 2 WEEKS from the time AQHA got the results until they put them into their system.  Maybe it would have been abit faster if there hadn't been 2 major holidays during those 2 weeks.  Or maybe not.  HAHAHA.  The only reason I have the results today is that I called AQHA.  I was told I should be getting an email with the results.  Wonder how long that will take?  LOL

RacingQH - 2014-01-07 9:58 AM Cool.



I talked AQHA again just now.  He said they will NOT automatically be sending a "hard copy" to the owner.  But will if it is requested.  They will send the results in an email. (If they have your email address.)  He said he would imagine that they would send a hard copy if they DIDN'T have an email address for you.  The email should take a few days.  (But since I was lucky and got the same guy I talked to yesterday, { and he is VERY helpfull.} he had them email HIM the info, then he forwarded it to me.  So I have it without having to wait for them to get around to sending it to me.)



They are NOT allowed to give 5 panel results over the phone to anyone other than the owner.



So at this point, it sounds like you just have to hope and pray that a stallion owner or horse seller is being truthful when they say the horse is N/N.  OR you could ask them to email you a copy of the form they received showing the horses results.



 

OregonBR - 2014-01-07 4:37 PM

To increase the educational value of this thread.  There was a comment made about MH.  I wasn't totally sure but thought it was a dominant rather than a recessive so I looked it up.  It is dominant. It only requires one parent to be a carrier/affected to have a 50% chance to be a carrier/affected horse. 
SNIP
 Wish I knew which 2 bloodlines it traces to. 

OregonBR - 2014-01-07 3:37 PM

To increase the educational value of this thread.  There was a comment made about MH.  I wasn't totally sure but thought it was a dominant rather than a recessive so I looked it up.  It is dominant. It only requires one parent to be a carrier/affected to have a 50% chance to be a carrier/affected horse. 
 

Malignant hyperthermia (MH)

Description Malignant hyperthermia (MH) was initially recognized as a fatal syndrome in humans, and the term describing its occurrence in swine is known as porcine stress syndrome. MH is most prevalent in swine but this syndrome has also been reported in dogs (especially Greyhounds), cats and horses. In horses MH thought to be confined to Quarter Horses and members of related breeds such as Appaloosas and Paints. Less than 1% of Quarter Horses are affected, and those that are seem to trace to two specific bloodlines. The genetic disorder suggested to be an autosomal dominant trait. MH is a potentially fatal disease of that could be triggered by factors that may include exercise, stress, breeding, illnesses, and concurrent myopathies. An additional genetic mutation in RYR1 gene (MH) influences PSSM and can increase the severity of the symptoms of PSSM in Quarter Horses and related breeds. The combination of PSSM and MH genetic tests are available at Animal Genetics.

 Wish I knew which 2 bloodlines it traces to. 

OregonBR - 2014-01-07 3:32 PM


 Hmmmm That directly contradicts what I was told on the phone just last Friday. 

OregonBR - 2014-01-07 8:45 PM

As a buyer and/or breeder looking at stallions, not having access to that information is upsetting.  Why the heck are we getting it done if not to use it to sift out the positive horses or make informed decisions?  

appycowgirl - 2014-01-08 5:55 AM

I do know that Dashing Move Fame and Frenchmans Goldcharm have been 5 panel tested and they are negative across the board. Good thing is between this year and next, we'll have the rest of these studs tested.

RacingQH - 2014-01-08 8:40 AM At this point, people have to hope that the stallion owner is forthcoming with the info. I wonder how many stallions that normally need 25+ mares are already tested? What are they going to do about stallions that are deceased? Send in some frozen semen and test that way?

annemarea - 2014-01-08 8:54 AM


It's a scary time because as this info comes to light, there will be people (and already are) that will try to pass a positive horse on.  I actually know a guy who just bought a horse at a local performance sale that knew the horse had to be positive, but told me he would just turn around and sell it just like the people who sold it to him.  This horse was tying up so bad that 10 minutes after riding he would lock up.  I told him to change the diet and the horse improved.  There are stories of people telling buyers that the horse had not been tested, when in fact, the horse HAD been and was positive.  I personally will not breed and will not buy without proof of both PSSM 1 and 2.  No way!  You think $300 is expensive for a muscle biopsy?  You think $35 is expensive for a hair test?  Well, compare that to what I've spent on my 3 year old.  Not one person has even made an offer on him.  Can he be successful?  I'm sure he can, but when you work the kind of hours I work, it is very hard to keep TWO PSSM positive horses worked like they need to be to keep them feeling their best.   

Used2B - 2014-01-08 9:13 AM Thank you AnneMarea for posting so much on this topic....I learn something from everything you post on here. I have one I am nearly positive has PSSM(will test soon) but she has never tied up so never in a million years would I have known anything about PSSM or what could be going on with her if it hadn't been for the big post on here. Thank you so much!

crossspur - 2014-06-18 8:34 AM I was doing a search on MH on Google & this thread came up. I just thought I would let you know we have had 5 of our horses tested & they all received hard copies from AQHA, so if you have doubt about a stallion the owner should be able to show you the hard copy

OregonBR - 2014-01-07 4:37 PM To increase the educational value of this thread.  There was a comment made about MH.  I wasn't totally sure but thought it was a dominant rather than a recessive so I looked it up.  It is dominant. It only requires one parent to be a carrier/affected to have a 50% chance to be a carrier/affected horse. 

 







Description

Malignant hyperthermia (MH) was initially recognized as a fatal syndrome in humans, and the term describing its occurrence in swine is known as porcine stress syndrome. MH is most prevalent in swine but this syndrome has also been reported in dogs (especially Greyhounds), cats and horses. In horses MH thought to be confined to Quarter Horses and members of related breeds such as Appaloosas and Paints. Less than 1% of Quarter Horses are affected, and those that are seem to trace to two specific bloodlines. The genetic disorder suggested to be an autosomal dominant trait.

MH is a potentially fatal disease of that could be triggered by factors that may include exercise, stress, breeding, illnesses, and concurrent myopathies. An additional genetic mutation in RYR1 gene (MH) influences PSSM and can increase the severity of the symptoms of PSSM in Quarter Horses and related breeds. The combination of PSSM and MH genetic tests are available at Animal Genetics.





 Wish I knew which 2 bloodlines it traces to. 

appycowgirl - 2014-01-08 4:30 AM

You were wondering about the 2 lines for Malignant Hyperthermia. The one research paper that I had read stated that they found it in a subset of bloodlines that they were researching. In Dr Molly McCue's 199 pagged dissertation she had outlined the bloodlines Eddie Cinco, another one with the initials of SDB who we believe to be Sonny Dee Bar, and another horse with the initials of PI who we believe to be Pretty Impressive.
Now, I have seen the pedigree of 4 horses that have tested to be MH positive. The one stallion's pedigree that I saw he was MH positive but PSSM1 negative and he traced back to Eddie 60. I'm not at liberty to reveal his name but his dam's name is Dry Fork Hancock.
The other three that I have seen that are MH positive along with being PSSM N/P1 are Oliver Sensation, Champagneinhollywood and Patch The Buck. All three of these horses trace back to Eddie Red Rose. Eddie Red Rose is sired by Eddie Cinco.

Now, Eddie Cinco and Eddie 60 are full brothers as they are both sired by Eddie and their dam is Miss Ogallala. Now, when they did the pedigree mapping they pointed an arrow at the mare, Miss Ogalla and in their explanantions they explain that were they put the arrow at, it was based upon eye witness accounts of the animal and that they believe that this animal was the source because of those accounts.

Personally, I would tell anyone, if you see the mare, Miss Ogallala in your horses pedigree, you better be testing.

All of these horses are on All Breed Pedigrees database so you can research their bloodlines. I just have trouble posting links to these horses with using my phone.