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 Too Many Irons in the Fire
Posts: 1724
  
Location: Augusta, KS | Just curious. I was taught how (explanation and watching) yesterday. I was shown where to find the vein, how to apply pressure to make it "pop" to make it easier to hit, really just the basics.
How did you learn to do it? It seems like one of those things that the only way to do it is to practice, but I know that there is a artery that you don't want to hit, above and behind the vein
I just think this is a good skill to learn, in case you ever need it. But obviously I don't want to hurt anything while learning. Did everyone else just kind of "wing it" in the beginning and hope for the best?
Disclaimer, I obviously won't be going around practicing on horses without someone with me that knows what they are doing and can correct me if I'm doing something wrong. I just want to know how everyone else learned, because it seems like one of those things that most people know how to do, but you never see or hear of anyone being "taught".
Edited by runningkc 2014-01-09 10:21 AM
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Hungarian Midget Woman
 
Location: Midwest | the vet showed me.
If you are shy about it at first, you can detatch the needle from the syringe. if you hit the artery (behind it) blood will shoot from the needle instead of dribble/drip.
I will stick the needle in first and then put the syringe on the needle after if I feel afraid of hitting the artery (which is behind the vein).
I think it is a good skill to have in case of injury or colic. |
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 Livin in the Dinosaur Age
Posts: 1993
Location: the other T-town, Oklahoma | I HAD to learn. My husband had a really sick horse that required antibiotics to be main lined every day once or twice a day. I can't remember it was so long ago. I had no choice but to learn how to do it. But so thankful I learned. I have had a few instances of colic since that time and was able to get the Banamine in them right away and get the meds started. My vet kinda showed me and then I started doing it. He did tell me if I got it in the artery, I am guessing a carotid artery, the side effects would be short lived, and they would be fine. Scary thought. |
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Too Many Irons in the Fire
Posts: 1724
Location: Augusta, KS | barrelracr131 - 2014-01-09 10:18 AM
the vet showed me.
If you are shy about it at first, you can detatch the needle from the syringe. if you hit the artery (behind it) blood will shoot from the needle instead of dribble/drip.
I will stick the needle in first and then put the syringe on the needle after if I feel afraid of hitting the artery (which is behind the vein).
I think it is a good skill to have in case of injury or colic.
Awesome! That's a good tip. Thank you. |
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 Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | I'll be honest....I'll give an IM shot all day, but an IV freaks me out. I don't feel comfortable doing it, so I let my vet do it. |
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Expert
Posts: 2531
Location: WI | barrelracr131 - 2014-01-09 10:18 AM the vet showed me.
If you are shy about it at first, you can detatch the needle from the syringe. if you hit the artery (behind it) blood will shoot from the needle instead of dribble/drip.
I will stick the needle in first and then put the syringe on the needle after if I feel afraid of hitting the artery (which is behind the vein).
I think it is a good skill to have in case of injury or colic.
You took the words out of my mouth! I have started doing it without the detached the needle. If you use 1" needles, that will also reduce your risk of getting in the artery. |
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  Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | I can start IV's on my horses and do when I need to. I am a nurse though and worked in the ER for many years. I just watched my vet a couple of times and he pretty much gives me whatever I want to have on hand for emergency back up to keep at home (otherwise, I'd be calling him at 0300 on Sunday morning for stuff and he doesn't like that lol). The biggest difference to me is the thickness of their skin as compared to humans. I learned by practice, practice, practice. I would ask to follow a vet if I wasn't used to it and stick the first time. You definitely don't want to hit an artery.....so, I would make sure you know what you're doing and to me the only way to learn that is by shadowing and learning from someone that does. |
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 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Vet showed me once, now I can do it with ease. If you are standing facing the horses neck, push the head away from you and you will see the vein. Makes it super easy, even on a fat horse. |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | I watched it being done for years before I got brave enough to try, but I had one colicking so I sucked it up and did it. I started giving IM shots when I was 11, but IV always intimidated me. I'm still not totally comfortable, but can hit the vein first try if the horse is halfway cooperative. The blood from the vein is darker, and that's how I tell the difference. Always pull back before pushing meds. Plus, the pullback mixes it so it's not hitting them too fast. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 222
Location: Texas | I teach it by having whoever I'm teaching draw blood on all the horses in the barn. Usually between 8-15 different horses by the time they are done they are usually pros. Needles,tubes,syringes are cheap via the vet or supply store. I want anyone giving injections to know how to do it bc I have seen the results of someone not knowing how and giving Banamine in the muscle. |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | I'm a vet tech, so schooling, however, it should be an easy skill to acquire-after all, "I" learned how. If I were you instead of going right to injecting meds in a horse, I would start with blood draws, same concept, no harm done. I too like to remove the syringe and let the blood spurt out in case you are in the artery rather than the vein. However, after many blood draws you will be able to identify the difference in color of arterial blood vs veinous blood and almost the "feel" of an artery vs a vein. Love having the skills I learned, the main thing is, if you are "afraid" the horses will sense that and some will cause you trouble.
As a side note I have a few friends that like to "test" my skills with some of their ornery horses, the clue that the horse might be a little hard on you is when the owner takes a couple of steps back when you start heading to the neck 
Edited by LMS 2014-01-09 10:33 AM
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Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | Injecting some medicine into an artery can kill a horse. Not all and it will probably be fine, but it is possible. Also, you can tear the artery if you don't know what you are doing and cause a lot of bleeding into the neck, especially when it is hot outside. An arterial puncture should have direct pressure applied for at least 10 minutes. |
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 Uh....never mind
Posts: 2696
Location: Midwest Farmer's Daughter: Central Illinois | All of the above - turn the head away, apply pressure, shorter needles, aspirate first & more than once.
My vet told me if the blood looks neon, aka brand new oxygen, then you've hit the artery. Apply pressure, pull needle out, keep pressure for 10-15 minutes with cold pack if available. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1094
Location: Idahome | Murphy - 2014-01-09 9:21 AM
I'll be honest....I'll give an IM shot all day, but an IV freaks me out. I don't feel comfortable doing it, so I let my vet do it.
This may be weird, but I am the opposite. I could do IV without a hitch, but I struggle to do IM. I don't know why. Had to give dex to a colt this summer, I tried the first day and it took be about 10 minutes to gain the courage to get the needle in. Hubby had to do the next 10 days for me. |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@%&# stirrer and Saint |  good info |
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 The Original Cyber Bartender
Location: Washington | LRQHS - 2014-01-09 8:30 AM Injecting some medicine into an artery can kill a horse. Not all and it will probably be fine, but it is possible. Also, you can tear the artery if you don't know what you are doing and cause a lot of bleeding into the neck, especially when it is hot outside. An arterial puncture should have direct pressure applied for at least 10 minutes.
If you inject into the Carotid artery, your going to know it dam fast. Most horses will died.
As others have said, have your vet teach you or their tec. Most are very happy to do so.
I always tell newbies to unseat the needle, meaning not attached to the syring. IF you get a strong spewing of bright red blood your in the carotid artery, when you hit the jugular, it's a drip drip.
IMHO this should be a hands on lesson. But you have gotten some very spot on advice. |
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 Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | I had a 3rd year vet student give my horse rompun in the carotid artery. It was awful. She flipped over backwards and was out cold, rigid, and spastic. I had know idea what was going on and the vet finally admitted what had happened. I begged him to do something, protect her eyes first of all (they were bugging out of her head and she was slamming it into the ground). She came to eventually (very slowly), but had head trauma from flipping. She had a head tilt and could only turn right for about a week. She made a full recovery.
Needless to say, I'm terrified to give IV injections, but I do it b/c I have to. I ALWAYS pull back! As already mentioned, arterial blood will rush into the syringe, you actually have to pull back if you're in the vein. Also, stay high on the neck. I tend to get too low, which makes it harder to find the vein, plus there is more separation of the vein/artery up high. (see image).
Edited by just4fun 2014-01-09 10:49 AM
 (vein_ultrasound_diagram.jpg)
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 vein_ultrasound_diagram.jpg (60KB - 274 downloads)
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 Veteran
Posts: 163
Location: Eufaula, Oklahoma | I have been giving IV shots for at least 30 years. Well on Thanksgiving day my mare was colicing. I was in a rush to give bannimine, I hit the artery. She went down quick. She thrashed around throwing her head and kicking on the ground for about 10 minutes. My husband was home and laid on her head and neck to keep her still. She did come out of it and seems to be ok. She did knock out a couple of teeth. I was scared to death that I had killed her. Like I said I have been giving shots IV shots forever. My mare has to be given lasix before we run. To say the least now I am scared to give IV but I do. I will be alot more careful from here out put the needle in first.
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 Blaines and Beauty
Posts: 1431
| runningkc - 2014-01-09 10:15 AM
Just curious. I was taught how (explanation and watching) yesterday. I was shown where to find the vein, how to apply pressure to make it "pop" to make it easier to hit, really just the basics.
How did you learn to do it? It seems like one of those things that the only way to do it is to practice, but I know that there is a artery that you don't want to hit, above and behind the vein
I just think this is a good skill to learn, in case you ever need it. But obviously I don't want to hurt anything while learning. Did everyone else just kind of "wing it" in the beginning and hope for the best?
Disclaimer, I obviously won't be going around practicing on horses without someone with me that knows what they are doing and can correct me if I'm doing something wrong. I just want to know how everyone else learned, because it seems like one of those things that most people know how to do, but you never see or hear of anyone being "taught".
I was a vet tech for 6 years and learned on dogs and cats so when it came to learn how to IV a horse, it was like looking at a garden hose...LOL! A good hint is before you stick the horse take a deep breath and when you breathe out, insert the needle and your hand will stay steady and not shake. It sounds kinda weird but it really works well |
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 More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | Murphy - 2014-01-09 10:21 AM I'll be honest....I'll give an IM shot all day, but an IV freaks me out. I don't feel comfortable doing it, so I let my vet do it.
I'm the same way Murph |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7268
| I do, learned from my Ex who actually helped me practice on one - (poor pincushion). I think it is VERY vital to know in the event of a colic episode where time matters. One tip is when you remove the needle, slide it back out gently - don't yank (which is what I did the first time). |
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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | I pretty much taught myself...watched the vets do it everytime and then had friends give me advice as well as the vets. Now, it's pretty much a piece of cake. I don't like doing babies, or horses that aren't used to getting shots, but I manage. I just learned how to IV lasix to my dog because he had congestive heart failure and had a bad attack two days ago. Yesterday morning I had to IV him and it is much tougher than horses! LOL His vein was rolling on me and making it tough to hit. I finally got it and he improved drastically afterwards.
One tip that I do remember my vet telling me is to inject in the upper 1/3 of the neck. I like to get the skin/hair pretty wet with alcohol if it's a difficult horse....seems it helps me see the vein better. My mare that has PSSM used to be a total pain in the butt to inject IV or IM, but once I got her muscles feeling better, she became soooo much easier and better behaved. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 170
Location: up to my waist in you know what | Yall have scared me enough to never try the IV. Yikes, to close to take a chance for me. IM I can do and that still scares me enough to wonder if I'm doing it correctly.  |
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 Bit O Holic
Posts: 6448
Location: hot, humid and dry...Gulf coast East of Houston.. | CYA Ranch - 2014-01-09 11:13 AM Murphy - 2014-01-09 10:21 AM I'll be honest....I'll give an IM shot all day, but an IV freaks me out. I don't feel comfortable doing it, so I let my vet do it. I'm the same way Murph
Me too!!!! I hate muscle shots!! I would rather IV anytime. |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| shellyh1971 - 2014-01-09 11:27 AM CYA Ranch - 2014-01-09 11:13 AM Murphy - 2014-01-09 10:21 AM I'll be honest....I'll give an IM shot all day, but an IV freaks me out. I don't feel comfortable doing it, so I let my vet do it. I'm the same way Murph
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Bit O Holic
Posts: 6448
Location: hot, humid and dry...Gulf coast East of Houston.. | Whiteboy - 2014-01-09 11:49 AM shellyh1971 - 2014-01-09 11:27 AM CYA Ranch - 2014-01-09 11:13 AM Murphy - 2014-01-09 10:21 AM I'll be honest....I'll give an IM shot all day, but an IV freaks me out. I don't feel comfortable doing it, so I let my vet do it. I'm the same way Murph
LOL... oops.. I quoted the wrong one.. |
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Bit O Holic
Posts: 6448
Location: hot, humid and dry...Gulf coast East of Houston.. | KylaKris - 2014-01-09 10:33 AM Murphy - 2014-01-09 9:21 AM I'll be honest....I'll give an IM shot all day, but an IV freaks me out. I don't feel comfortable doing it, so I let my vet do it. This may be weird, but I am the opposite. I could do IV without a hitch, but I struggle to do IM. I don't know why. Had to give dex to a colt this summer, I tried the first day and it took be about 10 minutes to gain the courage to get the needle in. Hubby had to do the next 10 days for me.
this was the one I meant to quote... LOL |
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Location: las vegas nv | fatchance - 2014-01-09 8:36 PM LRQHS - 2014-01-09 8:30 AM Injecting some medicine into an artery can kill a horse. Not all and it will probably be fine, but it is possible. Also, you can tear the artery if you don't know what you are doing and cause a lot of bleeding into the neck, especially when it is hot outside. An arterial puncture should have direct pressure applied for at least 10 minutes. If you inject into the Carotid artery, your going to know it dam fast. Most horses will died.
As others have said, have your vet teach you or their tec. Most are very happy to do so.
I always tell newbies to unseat the needle, meaning not attached to the syring. IF you get a strong spewing of bright red blood your in the carotid artery, when you hit the jugular, it's a drip drip.
IMHO this should be a hands on lesson. But you have gotten some very spot on advice.
Saved me some typing ,this is a great post !! |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | when giving an IV shot try to stay in the upper 1/3 of the neck . like the picture shows, there is a muscle (omohyoideus) that goes in-between the carotid artery and the jugular vein. The farther down the neck you go, the thinner the muscle becomes before it curves away.
When I was 17? maybe.. I hit the carotid on one of my horses giving a banamine shot. Since you're giving a bolus of drug to the brain, it hits them fast. Thankfully I stopped and only gave half the shot before I realized something was wrong. Had I been better trained as a kid I would have known IMMEDIATELY I hit the carotid. They will get a huge hematoma almost immediately, not to mention they start to seize right away. He was fine but lesson learned. Glad I did it then and not in vet school.. oops. |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | I've been doing so long I forgot how I learned. A friend at the track probably showed me.  |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 653
Location: Quinlan, TX | shellyh1971 - 2014-01-09 11:22 AM KylaKris - 2014-01-09 10:33 AM Murphy - 2014-01-09 9:21 AM I'll be honest....I'll give an IM shot all day, but an IV freaks me out. I don't feel comfortable doing it, so I let my vet do it. This may be weird, but I am the opposite. I could do IV without a hitch, but I struggle to do IM. I don't know why. Had to give dex to a colt this summer, I tried the first day and it took be about 10 minutes to gain the courage to get the needle in. Hubby had to do the next 10 days for me.
I agree.....I have a horrible time giving an IM shot.....but I can give an IV shot without a hitch. And it has been a blessing a few times when I have had one colic and needed to give banamine.....I have seen the effects that could happen by giving banamine IM. |
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Location: Mendenhall, Ms | I never use over 1" needle for IV injections. Most people that hit an artery are using a longer needle. I like 1 1/2 " needles for intramuscular injections. Great topic. |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Clardy - 2014-01-09 1:12 PM I never use over 1" needle for IV injections. Most people that hit an artery are using a longer needle. I like 1 1/2 " needles for intramuscular injections. Great topic.
Great point! I do the same. |
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Regular
Posts: 56
| I'm a vet tech so I've learned how to do it.
The first time I tried though I was 15 and had to wing it to give meds to a horse with colic. That was back when I was fearless so I felt comfortable trying. I did it several times that night. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 702
| You have gotten some good points, just going to add few. All needles are serrated for reason. When you drop cathetars the serrated side should be facing you. You will find it is much easier this way. In addition, slighty turn the needle (keeping it in place) when pulling out, this closes off the vein; still apply pressure as well. Horses that hate shots, heres one of my tricks. Always have someone hold or tie a horse when giving IV shots. When giving, I use my thumb of left hand to hold off the vein and wrap my fingers around the other side. For those horses leery of ivs, I wil pinch the opposite side with my ring/pinky fingers, this keeps them occupied on the other side. Practice will blood draws as mentioned. Just go slow, be gently, look at the serrated side.Wanted to add, if you do blow up a vein (get edema/swelling) use dmso on the area. If it is unknown if the horse is allergic/reactive to dmso, test a sm spot on the other side of neck. Dmso reaction is ugly, but dmso is great at edema reduction.
Edited by txaggiegal 2014-01-10 9:31 AM
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Who Wants to Trade?
Posts: 4692
| I have no idea when I learned. I've been doing it a long time though. I also prefer IV to IM. |
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