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 Veteran
Posts: 193
 
Location: USA | I've been re-training my OTTB mare and last year I had her started on different barrel exercises and she was also, side-passing, dis-engaging her fore quarters and hind quarters. and she was doing FANTASTIC then the farrier left a little piece of nail in her hoof and she went lame for 6months+ She's barefoot now and I'm NEVER going to shoes back on her again. But I'm having a hard time with her getting her to bend in a regular circle and getting her to move over. (She hasn't forgot anything that I taught her though) She has a SUPER soft mouth so any little tug on the reins she will turn or move. But she doesn't know exactly how to neck-rein yet and I'm using my calf then my spurs to get her to move her and she does but in a straight line. But, I'd like her to move over while I'm bending her. Any suggestions? Also, no rude comments about TB's my dad (I'm 16) bred my barrel horse and I had no say in it so she was basically my only choice. Luckily she's sound now to ride. Also, she's like a giant giraffe she's almost 17 hands so her legs go everywhere so I haven't been able to actually canter her around barrels yet I'm working on her rate and helping her getting her butt down around barrels instead of swinging them out. And I don't work on barrels all the time, I go on trail rides and work with her in the woods turning her around all different sorts of things (Rocks, Bushes, Trees etc;) Also I do a lot of exercises it keeps her mind fresh so if anyone has some sort of exercises or something I can do on the ground or just anything would help me a lot.
Thank you~ |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 902
Location: Qld Australia | Can you just clarify a little - are your trying to teach her to neck rein or are you having trouble getting bend in her body while working on circles and moving around your leg?
Who cares if she is TB, good for you. Any horse can achieve, it's just the level that is different. She can learn just like every other horse and so can you as her rider.
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Veteran
Posts: 193
Location: USA | I'm having trouble getting her bend and move her body over when I ask her to. Sure, she'll bend but in smaller circles. But I'd like her to bend and move out in larger circles. Teaching a horse to Neck rein though is not a problem for me I'm teaching her that every time I ride her. It helps every horse I think no matter what you do.
And thank you for understanding, A lot of people tell me that my TB mare can't race with a bunch of Quarter horses and win and I just told them "Watch me" and walked away. I think they were kinda mad tho, lol :P But see if I care |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
 
| Have you had her seen by a chiropractor?
If she was in pain during the onset of her time off, she may have been compensating and in turn worked herself out of alignment, or at the minimum has lopsided muscle mass.
I broke my wrist and was in a full elbow cast for 5 weeks - in that 5 weeks my left bicep became TINY and my right bicep developed more. It was embarrassing, the silly little things I couldn't do with my left arms when that cast came off. Imagine 6 months of not working a particular body part or muscle group, especially if it hurts, you're going to work it as little as possible.
I would first make sure she is not out of adjustment. Then I would suggest lots of long trotting, big circles and conditioning work to bring her back, and being patient. Basic dressage lessons if you're willing to take them would help also in terms of helping develop her bend and lateral strength. |
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Veteran
Posts: 193
Location: USA | I've only been riding her 15 minutes - 45 minutes every other day sometimes 2-3 days mainly because of the rain. I've slowly brought her back into riding and we already had her checked so nothing is wrong. (We had to get her teeth floated and UTD on her stuff) He also did a lameness check, that's how I know she is sound to ride and barrel race with :) And I've never taken dressage I want to but all the English places around here want like 50-75 bucks for an hour lesson! So that's a no for me I don't ever go to a lesson for more than 30 and I haven't been to a lesson within a year! I went to a Martha Josey Clinic last year for a week at her Ranch with my barrel horse and I've been implying what I learned with my barrel horse to my TB and so far she's been doing good. But, like I said I just want her to bend in a larger circle while still moving off my leg. And it could be, I just need more time with her, I've only been riding her like 3-4 times in the past 2 weeks mainly because of the rain! And our arena is SO wet you slip and slide and I don't want to risk her getting hurt. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| With any young or inexperienced horse you must perfect the manoeuvre at a walk before you can ask for the manoeuvre at a trot, and at a trot before a lope.
I won't work a horse on the barrels until I have all the buttons I need, you say you are trail riding her. When I am heading home from the trail ride, I will work my horses on reverse arcing, moving their hips and front end over when I want and how I want. I also work on framing them up, I work on stopping, turning, backing up, etc.
I also don't "tug" on reins when I am asking my colts something. I use a 3 finger method, one finger is asking, 2 fingers is reminding the horse what I was asking, and 3 fingers is telling the horse what I was asking. If you use this system, horses generally after two tries get lighter, and before you know it your horse is responding to one person
Also what type of bit are you using? |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| You say she'll bend on a smaller circle - truly bend through her ribcage and shoulder, or tip her nose in and follow it? Which is not bending, but will result in a small circle.
I would start with straight line lateral work like leg yield and shoulder in at the walk and trot. |
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Veteran
Posts: 193
Location: USA | I use a Tom-Thumb bit long shank mainly cause she don't like snaffle bits she doesn't have no rate in it what so ever and she doesn't really like it. In smaller circles she'll bend (I can see the corner of her eye and she bends through her rib-cage) and she'll follow her nose a little. But when I ask for her nose in larger circles she thinks I want her to turn or go into the turn when I want her to either stay straight or make a larger circle. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| Have you tried a 3 piece snaffle?
You really don't want any leverage while you're working on these basics. It's not about rate, it's about basics.
I would personally like to melt down every Tom Thumb and kimberwick out there. Terrible bits in my opinion, poorly designed. A jr cow horse or argentine "snaffle" (technically not a snaffle, but I digress) are much better choices for something with a light shank. |
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Veteran
Posts: 193
Location: USA | Well she knows her basics just stopping and getting under herself it what I've been working on lately. Tom-Thumbs for me are the best bit. I've NEVER had one that a horse never liked. Whether it be a long or short shank. Snaffle bits for me I've only had 1 horse to like mainly cause she didn't like shank bits even other trainers and my vet couldn't figure out why it was just her. And I've seen them but the one that my old English trainer used seemed to be harsh no matter what horse she put it on. (I think it was mainly her tho) But I've never used one so I can't judge them. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| RodeoRider97 - 2014-01-16 12:52 PM
Well she knows her basics just stopping and getting under herself it what I've been working on lately. Tom-Thumbs for me are the best bit. I've NEVER had one that a horse never liked. Whether it be a long or short shank. Snaffle bits for me I've only had 1 horse to like mainly cause she didn't like shank bits even other trainers and my vet couldn't figure out why it was just her. And I've seen them but the one that my old English trainer used seemed to be harsh no matter what horse she put it on. (I think it was mainly her tho) But I've never used one so I can't judge them.
What other it's do you have, as I believe a tom thumb are horrible bits as well. The problem with these bits is they are not balanced, made out of cheap metal. The mechanics of the bit is not good, this is actually a rather harsh bit as it squeezes the tongue, has pressure on the bars and the lips, as well as curb pressure when you are pulling. The ratio is 2:1. It has more leverage pressure about double to poll pressure, this is amplifying the force you are excreting in their mouth.
I suggest looking at a bit with some gag action, a junior cow horse, o ring combo, try and get a chain or 3 piece mouthpiece. These bits will give you more bend in the ribs more control of her shoulder. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| cheryl makofka - 2014-01-16 2:33 PM
RodeoRider97 - 2014-01-16 12:52 PM
Well she knows her basics just stopping and getting under herself it what I've been working on lately. Tom-Thumbs for me are the best bit. I've NEVER had one that a horse never liked. Whether it be a long or short shank. Snaffle bits for me I've only had 1 horse to like mainly cause she didn't like shank bits even other trainers and my vet couldn't figure out why it was just her. And I've seen them but the one that my old English trainer used seemed to be harsh no matter what horse she put it on. (I think it was mainly her tho) But I've never used one so I can't judge them.
What other it's do you have, as I believe a tom thumb are horrible bits as well. The problem with these bits is they are not balanced, made out of cheap metal. The mechanics of the bit is not good, this is actually a rather harsh bit as it squeezes the tongue, has pressure on the bars and the lips, as well as curb pressure when you are pulling. The ratio is 2:1. It has more leverage pressure about double to poll pressure, this is amplifying the force you are excreting in their mouth.
I suggest looking at a bit with some gag action, a junior cow horse, o ring combo, try and get a chain or 3 piece mouthpiece. These bits will give you more bend in the ribs more control of her shoulder.
Thanks for chiming in, tough to get long winded on my phone.
Stopping and getting under herself is a great start - I always install brakes early on my young ones. But basics are much more than just that. The bending and handling you're talking about are very much basic skills that any horse needs before being considered "broke". There's greenbroke - saddled, accepts a rider, isn't going to try and end your life. And then there is broke - has he basics, is supple, responsive, bends and flexes correctly, moves hip and shoulder in any direction when asked. At that point the horse is ready to go on and learn a task, like running barrels.
Do you have any videos? That might help us see what the issue is more clearly. |
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Expert
Posts: 2122
Location: The Great Northwest | I think you horse is doing what you ask when circling. When you ask for nose, to your horse she is suppose to turn. You need to apply leg on the inside and inside rein pressure to move out to a bigger circle, never cross over the neck with you hand, to come in smaller a little nose, outside rein, outside leg. Sidepassing would help with the pressure on the sides. I hope this helps. |
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Veteran
Posts: 193
Location: USA | Well when I usually make runs I use my Million-Dollar bit And it works GREAT on my barrel/Pole mare but I've never tried it for Marilynn (The TB) I'm going to be using it tho pretty soon since everything is drying up round here tho :) I'll see how she responds to it first she's never had anything like that before (Something over the nose and a twisted wire with dog-bone) |
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Veteran
Posts: 193
Location: USA | And I'm sorry, no I don't have any videos I'll try to get one of me working her soon ;) |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 902
Location: Qld Australia | Just a quick reply.
If she is turning when you are asking for bend in a larger circle, you need to keep driving her with your legs. Put your outside leg behind the girth to hold her hip into the circle and if she moves it out to complete a turn, you know 1. you have too much rein pressure and 2. not enough outside leg to hold that hip into the circle.
You don't constantly have rein pressure when asking for bend, just pick up, put her in the shape you want and then give back to her. As soon as she is out of shape, do it again and again, and again and again (lol) until she starts to work it out and hold herself in that shape when you ASK her to. Asking her is putting your outside leg behind the girth and pushing that hip to the inside of the circle. Just like the shape you want for a lead departure. (You don't want your poor horse to run around bent all the time lol)
On the question of bit - a tom thumb here is Australia is a great bit for babies as it is a snaffle with long bars on the outside of the bit to stop babies having a bit pull through their mouths when learning. These bits like any can be crappy made or custom made by the best bit makers. We have a very well made one for breakers. Is this the same as tom thumb bits in the US?
If it is not - I would go to a plain snaffle and your mare will have to get used to it. You want a simple bit to begin with when horses are learning the basics. I wouldn't be getting too complicated with things over her nose etc when she is at such a learning level. |
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 Veteran
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Location: Oregon | rockinj - 2014-01-16 6:38 PM
Just a quick reply.
If she is turning when you are asking for bend in a larger circle, you need to keep driving her with your legs. Put your outside leg behind the girth to hold her hip into the circle and if she moves it out to complete a turn, you know 1. you have too much rein pressure and 2. not enough outside leg to hold that hip into the circle.
You don't constantly have rein pressure when asking for bend, just pick up, put her in the shape you want and then give back to her. As soon as she is out of shape, do it again and again, and again and again (lol) until she starts to work it out and hold herself in that shape when you ASK her to. Asking her is putting your outside leg behind the girth and pushing that hip to the inside of the circle. Just like the shape you want for a lead departure. (You don't want your poor horse to run around bent all the time lol)
On the question of bit - a tom thumb here is Australia is a great bit for babies as it is a snaffle with long bars on the outside of the bit to stop babies having a bit pull through their mouths when learning. These bits like any can be crappy made or custom made by the best bit makers. We have a very well made one for breakers. Is this the same as tom thumb bits in the US?
If it is not - I would go to a plain snaffle and your mare will have to get used to it. You want a simple bit to begin with when horses are learning the basics. I wouldn't be getting too complicated with things over her nose etc when she is at such a learning level.
I think the bit that your are describing as a "Tom Thumb" in Australia is considered a full cheek snaffle here in the US.
I dislike the US version of the Tom Thumb bit, But I start most babies in a Full cheek snaffle.
OP--- I agree that a JR cow or a Tender Touch, (which I love) would work better for your training issues. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| It does not sound like this mare is ready fundamentally for a bit like the million dollar bit. You may actually seem to get good results the first few times to you it, but I would bet money that it's a bandaid over bigger holes in training that need to be corrected.
I agree, the Australian Tom Thumb sounds like a full cheek... |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 902
Location: Qld Australia | Thanks guys - as soon as I saw someone say a Tom Thumb is a bad bit I was thinking it is probably not the same thing. Now I know, better safe than sorry. :-) |
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Veteran
Posts: 193
Location: USA | I don't know what brand it is, Maybe a showman??? But it's a good quality bit I've had it for 10 years now and it's mouth piece is copper with stainless steel shanks. But I will re-try my snaffle bit, but it seems like every time I try it, she thinks it's time to run. she's off the race track and I don't know how they trained her but that snaffle bit to her means run! That's why I switched her to my tom-thumb and she immediately settled down and is very calm and focused. |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | to teach your horse basic stuff like bending in ribs and or moving over and lateral work a tom thumb is the last thing you need . nor shanked bits.. get a 3 piece snaffle and ride with both hands so when asking to move over you can support the outside with outside rein and leg but move it out slightly and give room for horse .. so horse will move over. keeping shoulders square.. then you can work on bending in ribs etc.. get the horse listening to you no matter what you want ..with its body not head. imho. body control is the best thing to know .. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 902
Location: Qld Australia | Yu need to retrain her to know that a snaffle does not mean run. One rein stop the run out of her. If she is disrespecting you with this, she will continue to try things along the way.
Any updates? |
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Veteran
Posts: 193
Location: USA | ~Update~ I actually re-worked her in my snaffle bit and she did fairly well she stopped a bit better! Her turning was kinda slow but that's because I worked her in the round pen for a little while since she had been in the stall for 3 days and was hyper so I worked her where she was a little calmer. And she did very good I only walked her though since it was still a little frozen in some places and a very slick muddy ground in other spots.
Now after I re-train her with the snaffle bit should I use it on our runs or my Million-Dollar bit so that way she knows the difference between the bits when I actually want her to run or go faster and go slower and do slow work with my snaffle? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| RodeoRider97 - 2014-01-21 5:53 PM
~Update~ I actually re-worked her in my snaffle bit and she did fairly well she stopped a bit better! Her turning was kinda slow but that's because I worked her in the round pen for a little while since she had been in the stall for 3 days and was hyper so I worked her where she was a little calmer. And she did very good I only walked her though since it was still a little frozen in some places and a very slick muddy ground in other spots.
Now after I re-train her with the snaffle bit should I use it on our runs or my Million-Dollar bit so that way she knows the difference between the bits when I actually want her to run or go faster and go slower and do slow work with my snaffle?
I don't bit a horse up until they show me they need bitting up. When I start my barrel pattern, I start in a 3 piece snaffle and I have successfully ran many in a snaffle, I don't start changing bits till I am high loping any they aren't responding g quick enough, I then go to a sweet six, if that bit doesn't work I will go to an Ed wright short shank, or Sheri cervi diamond lifter. I have only had one horse that I would warm up in a snaffle and run in a grasshopper, this is be a use he was extremely light until he was running full tilt to first, the grasshopper gave me that extra rate. I didn't start using the grasshopper till he was running by the first. |
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Veteran
Posts: 193
Location: USA | Well, I didn't mean now, like I just go a rodeo and run her in it. I meant later on, guess I should of put that in. But I was always told to run your horse in something different then what you practice in. It's ok to work them in it 1-2 per week or every 2 weeks. But not anymore because I also heard from Ty Mitchell himself that "it'll cause the horse to throw his head out" I went to a week barrel clinic at her ranch last year and although it wasn't with my TB mare I use the drills and exercises I learned from there and apply them to her. ( I use a Million-Dollar bit which is a combination bit) I Don't train her as hard of course but I do work her where she'll understand it. She's a very quick learner and if she started running barrels she'd be more of a free runner I think. She also has a VERY soft mouth |
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Help, please!