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 Member
Posts: 28
| Every winter my gelding turns stupid "and I do not use the term lightly"... For the winter/spring months he disappears into "airplane and butterfly mode". He is jumpy to an extent at home but anytime we haul he paws, rears, buck and chews on anything he can reach including other horses "all of this while being tied to the trailer". He is bug-eyed like a fresh 2 year old. I have tried several routines with him, from warming up then working, going strait to work, lunging before work, no matter - the reaction is the same. Bug-eyed, jumps 10 foot sideways spooking at his own shadow! It does not matter what I do I cannot hold his attention, its on other horses, the traffic, the dog, the pretty flags, the red car, the trees - anything but me. Even while loping circles, doing rollbacks, whatever I ask he is giving a half a**ed effort and keeping his eyes and ears elsewhere... I think its a respect issue, but no matter what I try "short of drugging him or taking the over and under and wearing him out , which neither is something I would feel comfortable doing", I cannot get it back!!! But I am at my wits end. Anyone have any suggestions? HELP!!! |
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 Expert
Posts: 1218
 
Location: Great NW | a few thoughts just off the top:
1. vitamin/mineral deficiency. make sure his diet is balanced.
2. does he get turned out during the winter/spring like he does in summer/fall. 3.Do you feed more alfalfa during the winter? if you do maybe take him off the alfalfa - feed a good grass hay for say 3 weeks and see if there is a change. Over the years I have had a couple that could not handle the increase in Alfalfa when they were not getting their daily turnout (grass). just some ideas. |
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Member
Posts: 28
| As far as being turned out, yes - year round. The only time I put them up is due to weather, so far I have not had to stall them this winter. I don't feed alfalfa - he colic'd on it right after I bought him so I don't take any chances by feeding it now :( , he has a nervous belly, they get a good brumuda/bahia mix hay year round - free choice. I feed Strategy year round, but I do need to look into the vitamin / mineral deficiency, that is a great idea and one I have not thought of, especially since I keep them on supplements, maybe I need to reevaluate... Thank you so much for your input... |
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 Texas Taco
Posts: 7499
 
Location: Bandera, TX | Bah! I know how you feel. On Wednesday my sorrel mare almost bucked me off and then her sister finished the job and tossed me in the dirt hard. I'm very bruised and sore. Both girls are being saddled and tied to the tree for the most part of the day now. I also reduced their grain. It's that time of the year. Be careful! |
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Expert
Posts: 1543
Location: MI | My mare has been nuts too. I upped her Forco to a full scoop, was giving a half, and making sure that she has loose minerals available at all times - which her and her pasture mate have been eating a lot of. Those 2 things seem to have helped, not to where she's back where she was, but at least 25% less spooky/crazy. I wondered if maybe her current diet, grass hay and minimal oats, might be leaving her magnesium deficient. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 602
| Tie him to a hitchin post and let him stand there for hours..... every day. Then when he calms down, tie him up to the trailer at home...... for hours. It took me 3 straight months to break my gelding. He was a turd! Now he stands quiet at the trailer. |
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Member
Posts: 28
| How frustrating!!! GoMistyGo, that is exactly what I have been dealing with "trying not to come off"... I try to keep his grain intake up for winter, but maybe I should reduce his since he is on free choice hay... HUMMM!!!! Mine horses have been eating the supplement/mineral blocks like crazy this year!!! I work all day so I have not been real sure about leaving him tied, but I dont guess it will hurt, something has got to give or I am going to get hurt :( .... I despise that spooky/crazy attitude. I like my horse to be obedient "year round" lol. |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | I would cut the grain for now.
Saddle him up first thing in the morning, leave him tied all day until dinner. Do two-a-day workouts if you can. Let him sit a while after you ride him for the last time. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 788
| I have one that is a little like that but hes just like that year round pretty much. I just have to ride him for a while and if he doesnt pay attention the over and under will come out lol but I try not to do that bc a horse like that will get jumpy if you do that. I usually just give him a really long warm up and then hes good to go. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | Have you tried any THE Calming Cookies or Calming Powder? Mine get pretty stupid but have gotten significantly better since on THE. If you can have more energy then him, I would work his butt everyday until he is too tired to move. My gelding is my problem child and always used to launch me. Sometimes he still does. I used to work him until he was so tired I couldn't get him to run. Now when he begins to get stupid I just work him and he gives up real easy cause he knows I won't until he is sweating and tired. Good Luck! |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | Maybe some ground work?? Watch some Clinton Anderson stuff and see if you get more respect, I have one that needed it, got it and is better, unless I feed alfalfa, then he's afraid of his own shadow literally. You can do a lot on the ground and not jeopardize your body :) |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| LMS - 2014-01-17 3:10 PM
Maybe some ground work?? Watch some Clinton Anderson stuff and see if you get more respect, I have one that needed it, got it and is better, unless I feed alfalfa, then he's afraid of his own shadow literally. You can do a lot on the ground and not jeopardize your body :)
He has a great little series on ground work for respect. He also agrees with tying them up for LONG hours for MANY days in a row. I have used it with fabulous results on my mare :) |
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Member
Posts: 28
| I don't think I could handle riding him if he acted like this year round, lol. I would blow sky high, forget the hot barrel horse, it would be him worrying about me :)... I LOVE Clinton Anderson and have several DVD's and he is great on the ground if I have my hands on him or have the lead. But as soon as he is in or tied to the trailer or I climb in that saddle he is ballistic... I have not tried The Calming Cookies but I will now :)... Thank you all for the advice and ideas I am up for trying anything at this point... |
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Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | Forgot to mention.The main ingredient in most calming supplements is magnesium, I've had the best luck with a cheap product callmed vita calm, it is mostly magnesium, can get it at TSC. Also, if this were my horse, I think he would get his own little pen by himself where I was the only source of comany and food for a couple weeks, then he would be tied to the trialer for a couple weeks, persistance will pay off. |
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Veteran
Posts: 160
| canchaser79 - 2014-01-17 1:38 PM
As far as being turned out, yes - year round. The only time I put them up is due to weather, so far I have not had to stall them this winter. I don't feed alfalfa - he colic'd on it right after I bought him so I don't take any chances by feeding it now :( , he has a nervous belly, they get a good brumuda/bahia mix hay year round - free choice. I feed Strategy year round, but I do need to look into the vitamin / mineral deficiency, that is a great idea and one I have not thought of, especially since I keep them on supplements, maybe I need to reevaluate... Thank you so much for your input...
Strategy blew my dead head gelding that I teach lessons on sky high when he was on it.. Exactly like yours, scared of his own shadow and wouldn't stand tied for anything, it even made mine buck like a bronc.. TOTALLY out of the ordinary for him.. I kept the same amount of weight on him with the same amount of feed when he was on Safe Choice, the only difference I noticed from the switch (apart from the behavior change) was his coat wasn't as pretty. Now I have mine on an 8% all purpose pellet and Equipride and I love it.. Do some research on Equipride.. It's a really cool product and sounds like it may be an option for your horse if you're looking to balance his diet. |
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Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: Great NW | canchaser79 - 2014-01-17 1:35 PM I don't think I could handle riding him if he acted like this year round, lol. I would blow sky high, forget the hot barrel horse, it would be him worrying about me :)... I LOVE Clinton Anderson and have several DVD's and he is great on the ground if I have my hands on him or have the lead. But as soon as he is in or tied to the trailer or I climb in that saddle he is ballistic... I have not tried The Calming Cookies but I will now :)... Thank you all for the advice and ideas I am up for trying anything at this point...
Another thought - he may need extra Lysine during the winter... that can make them act silly and unpredictable too. |
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Member
Posts: 28
| LMS; I like your way of thinking, I WILL win this battle no matter what, lol. I just don't want to spend the next 3 months getting the "stupid" out of him again... It takes his mind off of running and blows his and my focus to the clouds....
horseshorseshorses; He has done this on every feed so far, last year I wintered him on Total Equine and he was the same way but I could not keep the weight on during heavy competition due to lack of calories so I asked my vet and he suggested Strategy... I put him on it back in October and have kept the weight on but competition has not been heavy... My biggest thing with feed is I cannot stand feeding something I have to feed 14lbs a day "I just don't believe it is healthy for a horse to consume that many #'s of grain a day, plus its hard on the pocket book, he is 16.1 and 1250# and not an easy keeper by no means. The winter before I had him on a corn/oat/alfalfa mix that had a little soybean oil "very basic" and his antics were the same, but maybe I just have not found the right mix for him yet. I love equipride but live in a small town and our feed/supplement supply is slim pickings... I fed it for awhile but then it became unavailable... I like a high fat low protein feed, but again being in a small town availability is slim. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 253
Location: SoCal | If you are shelling out a lot of money on supplements trying to guess what will work, maybe look into that horse hair analysis thing, perhaps it'll tell you what levels are off...I know it was a little expensive when I looked at it, but it might be well worth he try. |
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 Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
Location: Opelousas, LA | I have never had any luck with Strategy. I have had better luck with minimal amounts of Ultium (1900 calories per pound) and alfalfa pellets.
I have had a couple that had to spend MANY hours tied to the trailer. It doesn't matter if you do it every day, they just have to stand quietly before you untie them on the days you do it. Untieing them while they are acting stupid defeats your purpose, when they cock a back leg and go to sleep then and only then do they get to be untied. |
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Expert
Posts: 3147
| canchaser79 - 2014-01-17 2:13 PM
How frustrating!!! GoMistyGo, that is exactly what I have been dealing with "trying not to come off"... I try to keep his grain intake up for winter, but maybe I should reduce his since he is on free choice hay... HUMMM!!!! Mine horses have been eating the supplement/mineral blocks like crazy this year!!! I work all day so I have not been real sure about leaving him tied, but I dont guess it will hurt, something has got to give or I am going to get hurt :( .... I despise that spooky/crazy attitude. I like my horse to be obedient "year round" lol.
Hay produces the energy to keep the horse warm in the winter. Grain has no benefit in helping the horse keep warm. Increasing the grain is probably what's causing him to act up in the winter. Cut his grain back and increase his hay if you're concerned about his needs. |
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Member
Posts: 28
| I actually decrease his feed in winter because we are not blowing and going much. Will definitely check into the Ultium feed and the hair analysis - interesting. If it will tell me what he is lacking I am all for it. So honestly, y'all think it may be more of lacking something than a respect issue? I have went over and over it, how can he be so respectful and responsive during the summer and early fall then do a 360 when it gets cold and the grass is gone? Makes no since to me being a respect issue when I look at it like that, unless its that he is not getting ridden as much so he is showing his butt... Great ideas everyone, thank you so much... |
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 I Want a "MAN"
Posts: 3610
Location: MD | canchaser79 - 2014-01-18 7:55 AM I actually decrease his feed in winter because we are not blowing and going much. Will definitely check into the Ultium feed and the hair analysis - interesting. If it will tell me what he is lacking I am all for it. So honestly, y'all think it may be more of lacking something than a respect issue? I have went over and over it, how can he be so respectful and responsive during the summer and early fall then do a 360 when it gets cold and the grass is gone? Makes no since to me being a respect issue when I look at it like that, unless its that he is not getting ridden as much so he is showing his butt... Great ideas everyone, thank you so much... Have you tried tying him up for hours?
ETA I know some people disliked my post. From reading about this horse on a computer screen he just sounds like he needs to be WORKED. So he's too focused on the job to act stupid. Sorry, just my honest opinion. I don't like babying horses if there's no need to.
Edited by CE's wrapn3 2014-01-18 9:15 AM
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 Chasin my Dream
Posts: 13651
Location: Alberta | I'd agree with taking him off grain totally and see what happens.... |
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I Need a Xanax!
Posts: 2774
| dream_chaser - 2014-01-18 8:54 AM
I'd agree with taking him off grain totally and see what happens....
Yep! Grain has always caused more issues than it helped in my horses and you pay $15+ a bag for the issues it causes! |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| If this only happens in the winter months, are not riding him as much?
Wet saddle blankets, and a patience pole is what I use to get my horses to respect me |
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Expert
Posts: 1543
Location: MI | I guess to me it's like running a horse. When the horse starts acting up, do you discipline/work them harder or look for soreness? I would look for soreness, but work on the issue. It seems like it's a similar issue - he knows respect sometimes (seasonally), but now is acting up. So do you discipline or look for a mineral deficiency?
I know my mare has shown an improvement with consistent loose minerals and increased forco. She also needs discipline, but I'm not able to provide consistency yet so I'm going to hold off a little. She is at least tolerable now.
I had an old butcherer talk to me once about minerals, and how there are some minerals that can be gotten only through dirt or rocks, the ground. In my situation, I suspect that the lack of grazing and the pasture change (to a small dirt lot) has affected her mineral balance. I need to look into the horse hair analysis, from the little bit I googled there were conflicting responses on its validity. |
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Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | In addition to two-a-days, I would put him in a pen/stall rather than turn him out, especially if there's grass on the ground. When my horses are jerks, they don't get any luxuries: grain, turnout, etc. |
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  Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | I would try looking at your routine when you haul, especially if your horse anticipates.
I've found with some horses, especially if they anticipate, that if you get there early enough to let them sit for a little while instead of saddling up right away, they're a whole lot calmer.
I have one that if you go to saddle right after you get there, he'll dance around and be an absolute turd. But if you just tie him to the trailer for about 30 minutes, his energy levels come down and he relaxes and he's like an old ranch horse. Totally different horse. He's been hauled a lot and it took me a long time to figure that out. I'd lunge him and all kinds of stuff to try to work through it. All I had to do was tie him to the trailer and let him sit.
Been to several ranch clinics these last few years and if I've learned nothing else it's not to step up on one until they tell me they're ready with their body language. It's not about whether or not you have to lunge one to get on, or wearing them out. I don't care about egos either. It doesn't mean a thing if you have to push one around a few minutes. It's about whether or not that inside eye and ear is on you, their head is lowered, and they're licking and chewing and totally tuned in on you. Get that at home, then go out and see if you can get it there too before you get on. Be patient enough to wait for it, too. It just takes time. Too often we get in a hurry and think we have to ride right then. It's not about riding right then, it's about getting that horse where he needs to be. The riding will come if you do that, IMO.
I'm a believer on tying one too, and letting them stand all day long around the action too. Does wonders for settling one down.
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Member
Posts: 28
| LOVE IT!!! Great advice, thank you so much. I left him tied to the trailer yesterday until the jerky head swingin', pawing and blowing stopped then tied him to the arena around the action, again waiting for the sign that he was ready to focus then stepped on and the difference was amazing... He was by no means perfect but it was a 75% improvement, I like those odds... |
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I Need a Xanax!
Posts: 2774
| Great!! |
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Expert
Posts: 2122
Location: The Great Northwest | When you tie for hours, please feed and water. They start looking forward to seeing you. It goes along with respect. They can develop ulcers over time on this regimine. I wonder if some of this bad behavior isn't caused from ulcers?
Edited by skye 2014-01-20 10:19 AM
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Member
Posts: 28
| I am ashamed to admit, I am probably contributing to his "stupid" behavior... I am the worst at being rushed for time. So when we haul, whether it be to practice at the arena or to an event I am usually the one that slides in sideways and am running 100 miles an hour, hmmm, now that I think about it, I can see how it would wear on his mind/nerves just as bad as it does mine!!! I am thinking I need to re-evaluate my hauling process so I can give him/me time to mellow more. Could be part or all of the problem. |
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Member
Posts: 28
| I agree on the Ulcers, and have wondered about it lately. His acupuncturist did mention that to me last time I seen her. |
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 Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | Ultium, made mine rocket ship, stupid. It is high in carbs and sugars, not as bad as some thou. |
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FRESH Horse advice!!!