|
|
Cold hands and Warm Heart
   
Location: oklahoma | Even with ourselves, we see people allergic to a lot of things that 30 years ago, wereunheard of... Peanuts for example. My dogs in the last 15 years have to be on expensive food because they're allergic to 'normal' less expensive food. Same with horses.... When I was young, the 70's, our saddles fit us, the jockey, not the other way around. Just something I think about from time to time. Have we specialized them and ourselves so much that we've bred the good out? Maybe as humans though we're getting back to our roots, so to speak, ditching the $1 menu for a banana. |
|
| |
|
 Chicken Chick
Posts: 3562
 
Location: Texas | I think we have bred the toughness and durability out of them. Horses can do so much more today then they could years ago (faster, stronger, etc.), but they just don't last as long.
It is like comparing ferraris to pick ups, one is made to look pretty and every now and then show the world what they have (which is alot)... the other is made to be useful, strong, and work all day every day and still be dependable. |
|
| |
|
 Saint Stacey
| I wouldn't blame the problems with allergies and sensetivity to foods on the actaul breeding. I blame in on all the GMO's, chemicals, dyes and growth hormones that is being used in food production. Whether it be corn, wheat, cattle, etc. It's all about yield, not health. |
|
| |
|
 Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
Location: Four Corners Colorado | SKM - 2014-01-18 12:37 PM I wouldn't blame the problems with allergies and sensetivity to foods on the actaul breeding. I blame in on all the GMO's, chemicals, dyes and growth hormones that is being used in food production. Whether it be corn, wheat, cattle, etc. It's all about yield, not health.
Thanks SKM that is what I was going to say! |
|
| |
|
 The BHW Book Worm
Posts: 1768
| i have no clue i deff. think we are breeding the durabilty out of horses. or at least it seems that way. i know more people that are stuck with lame horses just after a few years of ridding.... my first horse a ranchy type grade thing at 16ish years old is still clocking 2D and breaking to 1 D on good days.. when i had him as a two year old i did things i should never have done... like race him with all my buddies.. ride for hours and hours.... when he was three i was jumping 3 foot fences with him..he ran NBHA,KWHA for years every weekend. NEVER has that horse been lame and his owner that has had him the last year admits his work ethic is impecable and she still has no soundness proplems... people this horse should be on two legs looking back on it. |
|
| |
|
Cold hands and Warm Heart
Location: oklahoma | Thistle2011 - 2014-01-18 2:54 PM i have no clue i deff. think we are breeding the durabilty out of horses. or at least it seems that way. i know more people that are stuck with lame horses just after a few years of ridding.... my first horse a ranchy type grade thing at 16ish years old is still clocking 2D and breaking to 1 D on good days.. when i had him as a two year old i did things i should never have done... like race him with all my buddies.. ride for hours and hours.... when he was three i was jumping 3 foot fences with him..he ran NBHA,KWHA for years every weekend. NEVER has that horse been lame and his owner that has had him the last year admits his work ethic is impecable and she still has no soundness proplems... people this horse should be on two legs looking back on it.
I know that as we evolve, we learn. Our horses back in the 70's took us miles, I remember riding to the store some days and miles to the arena to practice poles and barrels. We ran all of the playday events. No white hairs on their withers from poor saddle fit or over work. Not a lame one among them. Our dogs never saw a vet and ate table scraps etc. I was thinking about it today because we're almost out of blue buffalo and my German shepherd eats a lot of it, lol. Big business has brought a lot of changes in our animals I think. |
|
| |
|
The BHW Book Worm
Posts: 1768
| CurlyQ - 2014-01-18 3:22 PM
Thistle2011 - 2014-01-18 2:54 PM i have no clue i deff. think we are breeding the durabilty out of horses. or at least it seems that way. i know more people that are stuck with lame horses just after a few years of ridding.... my first horse a ranchy type grade thing at 16ish years old is still clocking 2D and breaking to 1 D on good days.. when i had him as a two year old i did things i should never have done... like race him with all my buddies.. ride for hours and hours.... when he was three i was jumping 3 foot fences with him..he ran NBHA,KWHA for years every weekend. NEVER has that horse been lame and his owner that has had him the last year admits his work ethic is impecable and she still has no soundness proplems... people this horse should be on two legs looking back on it.
I know that as we evolve, we learn. Our horses back in the 70's took us miles, I remember riding to the store some days and miles to the arena to practice poles and barrels. We ran all of the playday events. No white hairs on their withers from poor saddle fit or over work. Not a lame one among them. Our dogs never saw a vet and ate table scraps etc. I was thinking about it today because we're almost out of blue buffalo and my German shepherd eats a lot of it, lol. Big business has brought a lot of changes in our animals I think.
my dads english setters all lived to be 17 years old... they didnt sleep in the house one day of there lives never had heartworm ... actually i think they only had there puppy vax and that is it. they were healthy there whole lives never once sick or poor looking they were fed sams club purina. now i dont ride my horses like i did my first and im very carful i have had so many darn lamness problems that has kept me from running for almost 5 years.... somthing always seem to happen...at this point im going to take radiographes every three months and not even halter break till there 6... o and every one is in a padded stall. as for my dogs.... i dont even want to talk about it. |
|
| |
|
Chicken Chick
Posts: 3562
Location: Texas | CurlyQ - 2014-01-18 3:22 PM Thistle2011 - 2014-01-18 2:54 PM i have no clue i deff. think we are breeding the durabilty out of horses. or at least it seems that way. i know more people that are stuck with lame horses just after a few years of ridding.... my first horse a ranchy type grade thing at 16ish years old is still clocking 2D and breaking to 1 D on good days.. when i had him as a two year old i did things i should never have done... like race him with all my buddies.. ride for hours and hours.... when he was three i was jumping 3 foot fences with him..he ran NBHA,KWHA for years every weekend. NEVER has that horse been lame and his owner that has had him the last year admits his work ethic is impecable and she still has no soundness proplems... people this horse should be on two legs looking back on it. I know that as we evolve, we learn. Our horses back in the 70's took us miles, I remember riding to the store some days and miles to the arena to practice poles and barrels. We ran all of the playday events. No white hairs on their withers from poor saddle fit or over work. Not a lame one among them. Our dogs never saw a vet and ate table scraps etc. I was thinking about it today because we're almost out of blue buffalo and my German shepherd eats a lot of it, lol. Big business has brought a lot of changes in our animals I think.
Same here, we would ride a few miles to the arena... do whatever event was going on that day. In between runs would run, play tag on the horses, have them jump logs or whatever. When our name was called, back in the arena. They really never got a break, and then they had to be ridden all the way home if it wasn't dark. Usually though we were on the horses all day, sometimes not getting them home until 2-3 o'clock in the morning. They didn't have as much spunk in their step by the end of the night, but they still worked just as hard for you at the end of the day as the beginning. Never took a lame step. The saddle we put on them depended on who was riding them that day.
The last horse I had that was broke, he could bump his leg and be out for a week at least acting like he was going to die if he didn't get medical attention immediately lol. |
|
| |
|
  Living on the edge of common sense
Posts: 24139
Location: Carpenter, WY | We try to teach behavior...maybe we're suggesting being a wuss equals attention when we doctor every bump and bruise they get rather than tuffen them up and make them learn from some of the stupid situations they get themselves into and hurt themselves. Just like a kid they learn the consequence of their action. They are definitely no dummies.  I'd bet that most are born 'good' but then we come along and fix that plus we just don't use them like we used to.
|
|
| |
|
Location: Exactly where I am supposed to be | teehaha - 2014-01-18 4:37 PM
We try to teach behavior...maybe we're suggesting being a wuss equals attention when we doctor every bump and bruise they get rather than tuffen them up and make them learn from some of the stupid situations they get themselves into and hurt themselves. Just like a kid they learn the consequence of their action. They are definitely no dummies. I'd bet that most are born 'good' but then we come along and fix that plus we just don't use them like we used to.
Yes I agree |
|
| |
|
Location: Exactly where I am supposed to be | Thistle2011 - 2014-01-18 2:54 PM
i have no clue i deff. think we are breeding the durabilty out of horses. or at least it seems that way. i know more people that are stuck with lame horses just after a few years of ridding.... my first horse a ranchy type grade thing at 16ish years old is still clocking 2D and breaking to 1 D on good days.. when i had him as a two year old i did things i should never have done... like race him with all my buddies.. ride for hours and hours.... when he was three i was jumping 3 foot fences with him..he ran NBHA,KWHA for years every weekend. NEVER has that horse been lame and his owner that has had him the last year admits his work ethic is impecable and she still has no soundness proplems... people this horse should be on two legs looking back on it.
YES !!!!  |
|
| |
|
 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Dogs and cats are suppose to eat meat. Not grains. Horses are suppose to eat grass and a little grain. No the crap the feed companies tell us is better for them. Same with us. The crap we eat is what is making us sick. JMO  |
|
| |
|
Blessed 
Location: Here | SKM - 2014-01-18 1:37 PM I wouldn't blame the problems with allergies and sensetivity to foods on the actaul breeding. I blame in on all the GMO's, chemicals, dyes and growth hormones that is being used in food production. Whether it be corn, wheat, cattle, etc. It's all about yield, not health.
I agree |
|
| |
|
Blessed
Location: Here | OregonBR - 2014-01-18 4:46 PM Dogs and cats are suppose to eat meat. Not grains. Horses are suppose to eat grass and a little grain. No the crap the feed companies tell us is better for them. Same with us. The crap we eat is what is making us sick. JMO
YEP!!
|
|
| |
|
 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I don't think we are breeding the good out of horses. I think technology has come a long way and there are more options available out there that we didn't have in the past. I think advanced medical care has probably prolonged many horses careers who in the past probably wouldn't have held up.
I also think we are asking more and more out of our horses- we are cutting tenths and hundredths off our times, arena records are getting broken, our horses are competing at such an intense level. I think it just comes with the territory.
The other question is, and I can't answer it because I wasn't riding and competing 20-30 years ago- did people know where to look for lameness? how much was written off as ill behavior? how much was not even detected?
I think as breeders we should focus as much as we can on breeding good sound conformation into horses. Poor conformation= increased risk for injury and unsoundness. The day you quit breeding for sound conformation is a bad day. Perhaps people have done that with some horses but I think if we continue to be diligent about NOT breeding stallions or mares that throw major conformational flaws that are known to lead to lameness, we can continue to improve the breed over time. I think as a whole it has improved JMO.
Edited by casualdust07 2014-01-18 7:42 PM
|
|
| |
|
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I have to disagree, we have not bred the good out of them, we have bred the athleticism, speed into the barrel horse.
Comparing present horses to horses 20 years ago, the present horses will kick their butt hands down because we have refined and bettered the breed for barrel racing.
Asking what we are asking from these horses I can see injury happening as some people believe stalling is better then turnout, hay is better then grass, processed foods are better then natural
We have many more weekend warriors that pull the horse out of the pasture after not running or being rode for months, and these people wonder why their horse is lame.
We have also lost the blacksmith, and are stuck with the farrier. In my area a farrier can take a weekend course be given a certificate of attendance and charge 40 bucks for a trim. Farriers are using preshaped shoes and shaping the foot to the shoe instead of th other way.
So no we have not bred the good out, we have wrecked the good horse by the above. |
|
| |
|
You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | SG. - 2014-01-18 7:11 PM
OregonBR - 2014-01-18 4:46 PM Dogs and cats are suppose to eat meat. Not grains. Horses are suppose to eat grass and a little grain. No the crap the feed companies tell us is better for them. Same with us. The crap we eat is what is making us sick. JMO
yep, when you look at the feline dentition they are described as being "hyper carnivorous." LOL.
Dogs are designed to eat a mixture of meats and vegetation but not really in the way dog food is made. When the dog eats in the wild, the first thing they do is consume the gut organs, intestines, stomach, etc… they eat the contents of those organs too to get the veggies those animals ate. Dogs have a reduced amount of enzymes that allow them to eat plants, which is why they eat the predigested plant contents in the GIT of the animal they killed. They get more nutrition out of eating those entrails than they do of eating skeletal muscle because of the more wide variety of amino acids and other good stuff in there.
I am a fan of the Proplan dog food purina makes and science diet is pretty good stuff too. I'm not a fan of the super cheap stuff you can buy at the grocery store… |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 170
| I think twenty years ago you didn't see as many lame horses because they were sent to the processor. Now people look for any excuse for a horses poor behavior,farriers are less skilled,horses and other pets are treated like people. I do think we are slightly changing the horses by everyone desiring the most in demand bloodlines and not providing enough variation in the gene pool. |
|
| |
|
| cheryl makofka - 2014-01-18 7:43 PM
I have to disagree, we have not bred the good out of them, we have bred the athleticism, speed into the barrel horse.
Comparing present horses to horses 20 years ago, the present horses will kick their butt hands down because we have refined and bettered the breed for barrel racing.
Asking what we are asking from these horses I can see injury happening as some people believe stalling is better then turnout, hay is better then grass, processed foods are better then natural
We have many more weekend warriors that pull the horse out of the pasture after not running or being rode for months, and these people wonder why their horse is lame.
We have also lost the blacksmith, and are stuck with the farrier. In my area a farrier can take a weekend course be given a certificate of attendance and charge 40 bucks for a trim. Farriers are using preshaped shoes and shaping the foot to the shoe instead of th other way.
So no we have not bred the good out, we have wrecked the good horse by the above.
WELL SAID ...
I want to double down on the feed you are buying that has nothing in it but trash waste from human food process and ethanol waste products .... and all the heavy supplements bought which can accumulate in the horses body and give you problems you never dreamed of ....
I dare someone to start a brag post on the feed they are using and include the list/scan/photo feed tag//bag etc etc of ingredients and tell us if any of them is a natural whole grain or fiber ....
|
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | ME AND DEE - 2014-01-18 11:51 PM I think twenty years ago you didn't see as many lame horses because they were sent to the processor. Now people look for any excuse for a horses poor behavior,farriers are less skilled,horses and other pets are treated like people. I do think we are slightly changing the horses by everyone desiring the most in demand bloodlines and not providing enough variation in the gene pool.
Let's face it.............the more "problems" a vet can find, the more money they make off of expensive treatments. I also agree that in the past horses were sent to the processor when a serious lameness came up. I also think modern day horses are way over fed and under worked. Even from the womb, broodmares are over fed so the foals come out slick and fat then both are over fed so that the foal will grow as fast as possible.
I do think the lost art of walking a horse under saddle combined with a lengthy warm up and fitness program has hurt as well. |
|
| |
|
You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | hotpaints - 2014-01-19 6:38 AM
ME AND DEE - 2014-01-18 11:51 PM I think twenty years ago you didn't see as many lame horses because they were sent to the processor. Now people look for any excuse for a horses poor behavior,farriers are less skilled,horses and other pets are treated like people. I do think we are slightly changing the horses by everyone desiring the most in demand bloodlines and not providing enough variation in the gene pool.
Let's face it.............the more "problems" a vet can find, the more money they make off of expensive treatments. I also agree that in the past horses were sent to the processor when a serious lameness came up. I also think modern day horses are way over fed and under worked. Even from the womb, broodmares are over fed so the foals come out slick and fat then both are over fed so that the foal will grow as fast as possible.
I do think the lost art of walking a horse under saddle combined with a lengthy warm up and fitness program has hurt as well.
Not saying those vets aren't out there, but I guess I have weeded them out in my area...all the vets I use are more than happy to tell me when nothing is wrong. In fact, when I have ridden with vets to get my hours for vet school, they more often feel pressured to find something than not because the owner is wanting a quick fix and an explanation. Especially when you have people now googling symptoms and already having a diagnosis in their mind before we get there. It's a tough line to walk when your livelihood is veterinary medicine.
|
|
| |
|
I keep my change in my pockets
Posts: 2985
Location: MN | If you watch the old western shows like Law man and Have Gun will travel, look at the heavy bone structure that the horses had then and look at the bone structure now. We have bred a lot of that out. I wonder if that isn't part of the problem for soundness, too light in the bone. |
|
| |
|
 The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | We were a lot tougher back in the day too. We didn't have bike helmets, car seats, seatbelts. We didn't have adults watch us swim, we slept in rooms with lead paint...lol!! I think it's the same with horses and the times. They just don't make them like they used to!! |
|
| |
|
My mind still works
Posts: 8912
| A lot of the bone left when TB's and Quarters became one in the pen. Used to be two different breeds. I get your point. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 139
Location: Abbotsford B.C. Canada | I think this lady has hit the key ppoint of what we do with horses. The way things are set up if you select for speed by default you select for massive muscle and the lightest possible bone structure. The TB race horse industry is wrestling with this dilemma.
No one selects for over all soundness or longevity as the stallions / mares that give you a horse that can win when it is young are actually pulled out of racing at a young age. We have no idea how well the horse could race over time.
Everyone knows bone density is not complete to 5-6 years of age but we are racing horses much younger than this. So maybe even if canon bones eem ok, the vertebrae in the bacj are not yet done and look at all the weird back issues and odd problems we have that physiotherapists and chiropracters have to deal with. An old cowboy told me not to break my arab until he was three but I as too dumb to listyen and I think that horse paid a price for that.
See how long a reiner lasts.
If you breed for speed only, you will sacrifice bone weight and aggravate the problem by adding muscle mass. Then you get the extreme body shape of a heavily muscled horse with fine bone and small feet. It will be faster but it will perhaps not be able to last very long. But if it wins early it may be rertired to stud and then you perpetuate the problem. The horses are actually doing maximum stress work onm an imature frame.
I would be interested in what real experts have to say or what your observations are when you talk to barrel racers. How many horses have odd back and leg issues and so on that are maybe hard to define. How many horses can race for a number of years , when do people start their horses etc.
Could be an interesting discussion. We really work on bone development.
FYI
Coastal Rider
|
|
| |
Have we bred the 'good" out of them?