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| I would like to know why you guys think paints don't bring as much as quarters horses? No matter how well bred they are. I was able to get this guy for a great price and nothing wrong with him, two outs on the track and well broke, just getting a handle on him now, super smart, coming along great.http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/jl+lacis+bow
Edited by moeman17 2014-01-19 6:24 PM
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| I have to disagree with your post. Barrel and Race bred, full registry APHA horses bring every bit as much a horse of similar blood. | |
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 Forever Young
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Location: relocated to Texas | luvmyphoenix - 2014-01-20 5:22 PM I have to disagree with your post. Barrel and Race bred, full registry APHA horses bring every bit as much a horse of similar blood.
Ditto. If they are a trained performance horse, sometimes people will pay more for their color. | |
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 Accident Prone
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Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | The solid paint prospects are usually valued lower, but not always. If my filly had been colored, I wouldn't have been able to afford her. | |
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 Looking For Fun!
Posts: 4067
Location: Feeding those that need me | We specialize in very well bred APHA horses and we feel as though we sell our colts for the same, if not more, than their similarly bred AQHA counterparts. With added PBRIP money in races across the nation now, we feel as though the demand will only increase from here. Who wouldn't want a chance to run for an additional added money side pot? | |
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  Sock eating dog owner
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Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | Ghost you have some mighty fine boys, I like the doctor. | |
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 Queen Bee Cat Owner
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Location: Way up North | I have heard this a lot but not sure I have ever really seen proof of it although I think people can be more critical of paint stallions than a QH stallion bred almost identical with the same race/produce record because people will claim someone is only breeding to the paint for the color. I know some people just plain do not like a colored horse whether from old wives tales (they are all broncs, terrible feet, spooky, etc.) or from the fact white is a pain to keep clean. I have owned and do own several paints and I can't say I would value them any higher or lower than the QH's I have had. | |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | luvmyphoenix - 2014-01-19 5:22 PM I have to disagree with your post. Barrel and Race bred, full registry APHA horses bring every bit as much a horse of similar blood.
If you go to the Heritage Sale with a World Champion producing dam of popular QH bloodlines, she will bring most likely over $80,000+, compare her to a World Champion paint of equally popular paint bloodlines and I have seen them go for uner $5K. I think the most expensive one I have seen sell was $20K. We are talking bred back, relatively same age, whatever. I love paints, and a good one will still bring decent money in the barrel world, but APHA doesn't have as many breed shows nor the incentives to breed paints. | |
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| OP, what you should do is tell us where you got your APHA from for such a great price...
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Member
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| wyoming barrel racer - 2014-01-19 7:03 PM luvmyphoenix - 2014-01-19 5:22 PM I have to disagree with your post. Barrel and Race bred, full registry APHA horses bring every bit as much a horse of similar blood. If you go to the Heritage Sale with a World Champion producing dam of popular QH bloodlines, she will bring most likely over $80,000+, compare her to a World Champion paint of equally popular paint bloodlines and I have seen them go for uner $5K. I think the most expensive one I have seen sell was $20K. We are talking bred back, relatively same age, whatever. I love paints, and a good one will still bring decent money in the barrel world, but APHA doesn't have as many breed shows nor the incentives to breed paints.
I agree with you 100% about the lack of support from APHA. I think it is appalling considering how popular their association could be if they would put the money and advertisement to support themselve. I mean, could it be so hard to team up with NBHA sanctioned events and give an added "bonus" to the jackpot if you pay your race fees plus a fee for the APHA? Then, the APHA registered horse wins the bonus if they win the jackpot too? Just a thought. I sure do hate to waste my time and money competing by myself at an APHA sanctioned event to qualify for their world show.
I still don't agree with you about the APHA/AQHA pricing tho. I know there are exceptions to every rule, but APHA horses are popular when we bred and built right and do fetch the money.
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Kansas and loving it | It can be a geographic thing too. In western Kansas, paints don't do well at all. Not because of lack in ability or conformation. Mostly due to the white pigment and sunburning. I had a paint get photo sensitivity and his nose clear up to the bone started sloughing off, horrible to deal with. Mares of any breed or color will bring quite a bit less than a male counterpart. Bay gelding with little white, or plain sorrel are the majority. But once in a while a girl will run barrels on a paint. Some are super nice to look at. | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I had two solid paints, well still have one but he's for sale.
the mare was bred out the wazoo and was truly one of those fully AQHA paints. her dam was a crop out and her sire was a QH… but she fell in that gap where she got paint papers. She was very easy to sell.
For my gelding I think his solid paint papers are a deterrent. I also have in his ad that he cribs, and I know that turns people off. And lastly, his sire, even though is a world champion paint barrel horse, doesn't have the names on his papers… I think those three things make people look him over. | |
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Elite Veteran
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| AllAroundRider - 2014-01-19 6:46 PM
I have heard this a lot but not sure I have ever really seen proof of it although I think people can be more critical of paint stallions than a QH stallion bred almost identical with the same race/produce record because people will claim someone is only breeding to the paint for the color. I know some people just plain do not like a colored horse whether from old wives tales (they are all broncs, terrible feet, spooky, etc.) or from the fact white is a pain to keep clean. I have owned and do own several paints and I can't say I would value them any higher or lower than the QH's I have had.
I'm pretty sure the people who say paints are only bred for color are holding on to old biases. The same used to be said about palominos, now look. | |
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Accident Prone
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Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | casualdust07 - 2014-01-19 7:55 PM
I had two solid paints, well still have one but he's for sale.
the mare was bred out the wazoo and was truly one of those fully AQHA paints. her dam was a crop out and her sire was a QH… but she fell in that gap where she got paint papers. She was very easy to sell.
For my gelding I think his solid paint papers are a deterrent. I also have in his ad that he cribs, and I know that turns people off. And lastly, his sire, even though is a world champion paint barrel horse, doesn't have the names on his papers… I think those three things make people look him over.
Once a horse is trained, I don't think the type of papers mean much. | |
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 Canine Carryout Queen
Location: Oklahoma | Unfortunately they are a lot harder to sell... especially solid paint breds. | |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-19 8:28 PM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-19 7:55 PM
I had two solid paints, well still have one but he's for sale.
the mare was bred out the wazoo and was truly one of those fully AQHA paints. her dam was a crop out and her sire was a QH… but she fell in that gap where she got paint papers. She was very easy to sell.
For my gelding I think his solid paint papers are a deterrent. I also have in his ad that he cribs, and I know that turns people off. And lastly, his sire, even though is a world champion paint barrel horse, doesn't have the names on his papers… I think those three things make people look him over.
Once a horse is trained, I don't think the type of papers mean much.
I agree with you, especially on a gelding. Hopefully someone will try him based on his merits like we did when we bought him :) | |
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Location: SoCal | I have technically one, sorrel overo gelding. He's actually western pleasure and halter breeding for the most part, out of a AQHA mare, was training for the circuit and was too forward in movement from what we heard. Went on to be a trail rental horse, completely lame by 4 years old, and I have him 10 years later and still wouldn't trade him for the world. With all his problems he wouldn't sell for much, but he has won me saddles and buckles. He absolutely loves to run, if you're doing single pole or something similar when gaming, he usually runs down really quick and then he doesn't want to run home cause he knows he'll have to stop.
I'd totally have another Paint. I actually have a spotted AQHA mare. I think if you are selling to the right people/market, any breed pulls top dollar. You aren't going to get the same money for a Paint selling on a Quarter horse market as you would within a paint market. Friesians are pricey horses, I've seen babies go for 15k plus, now would someone on here pay that. I dout it. It's all about marketing. | |
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| Lee campbell out of oklahoma | |
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 Not Afraid to Work
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| I personally love paints and hope to own one someday but I also have noticed this for both buying and breeding. I think many have made the fair arguments of the difference in incentives for APHA vs AQHA.
I've also heard the comments about color. For example, I love paints but I do have preferences with how they are colored (i know i know, you cant ride color). For me, this wouldnt be an absolute deterrant if it was bred well, we got along, etc etc. But a good friend of mine has been debating breeding to a well bred paint stud in our area and will not because shes afraid to get something super loud, too much white, etc. | |
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 Thread Killer
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| Well, for starters, they can't run. They're either crazy or have bad attitudes. Hmm....lets see, what else? Oh, right, they're ugly (solid horses FTW!).
*SARCASM**THATWASAJOKE**NOTREAL**MYOPINIONISTHEEXACTOPPOSITE** | |
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Extreme Veteran
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| Because some people find it difficult to move past old stigmas. No one used to want to ride a palomino because they were "only good for parades because they are pretty." Or this one I heard from a very prominent Futurity trainer a long time ago "if you can't ride a good one, might as well ride a buckskin". Clearly times have changed. Paints have historically been thought of as being pretty but not as fast as the QH. | |
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 Namesless in BHW
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Location: At the race track with Ah Dee Ohs | moeman17 - 2014-01-19 11:47 PM Lee campbell out of oklahoma
Yes, ma'am! We know the horse and the people! Anyone remember JL Treasured Smash? Same people! Great people and care givers. | |
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 Cute Little Imp
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Location: N Texas | Just Plain Lucky - 2014-01-20 12:27 AM Well, for starters, they can't run. They're either crazy or have bad attitudes. Hmm....lets see, what else? Oh, right, they're ugly (solid horses FTW!).
*SARCASM**THATWASAJOKE**NOTREAL**MYOPINIONISTHEEXACTOPPOSITE**
I know you meant that as a joke, but back when I first got started riding competitively, I was told by numerous people that paints and apps are not desirable speed horses because they're slow. However, I've seen plenty that disproved that, so I think a lot of people don't realize how far the colored horses have come, as far as being competitive with QH's. | |
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Looking For Fun!
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Location: Feeding those that need me | luvmyphoenix - 2014-01-19 7:15 PM
wyoming barrel racer - 2014-01-19 7:03 PM luvmyphoenix - 2014-01-19 5:22 PM I have to disagree with your post. Barrel and Race bred, full registry APHA horses bring every bit as much a horse of similar blood. If you go to the Heritage Sale with a World Champion producing dam of popular QH bloodlines, she will bring most likely over $80,000+, compare her to a World Champion paint of equally popular paint bloodlines and I have seen them go for uner $5K. I think the most expensive one I have seen sell was $20K. We are talking bred back, relatively same age, whatever. I love paints, and a good one will still bring decent money in the barrel world, but APHA doesn't have as many breed shows nor the incentives to breed paints.
I still don't agree with you about the APHA/AQHA pricing tho. I know there are exceptions to every rule, but APHA horses are popular when we bred and built right and do fetch the money.
They do. We just launched it last year and it is taking off like wildfire. Check it out on their website. It's called PBRIP. Anyone can apply to have any race deemed eligible. There will be side pots at all the big shows this year and any little shows that someone applys for eligibility. I believe Melanie is in Arizona right now running the PBRIP table. There is a lot of money to be had running a paint horse! | |
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 Best of the Badlands
Location: You never know where I will show up...... | Hollywood's Fan - 2014-01-19 6:23 PM luvmyphoenix - 2014-01-20 5:22 PM I have to disagree with your post. Barrel and Race bred, full registry APHA horses bring every bit as much a horse of similar blood. Ditto. If they are a trained performance horse, sometimes people will pay more for their color.
I love paints, but the reason I quit breeding them was because they were not worth what an AQHA of similar caliber and breeding was. I had own daughters of Treasured, Judys Lineage, Texas Hero, ect. My JL daughter was a stakes producer. They were't junky spotted mares but good, colored, proven producing and proven running stock.
I'm not knocking them~ because I love them, but can't afford to raise them because they aren't worth much. I've sat through many sales too, and the best bred paints don't bring much more than the mediocre bred Quarter Horses will.
I had a paint daughter of A Streak Of Fling for sale this fall, and while she did sell, I only had her priced at half of what an AQHA prospect her caliber would have been and still had people balk at her because she was a paint.
I had a daughter of A Sharper Image that had won and placed at several futurities her 5 year old year. She made the short round at the WPRA World Finals Futurity and she placed in 2 go's and the average of the Badlands Circuit Finals rodeo. She was finished, solid, and easy to ride. I had several people that wanted to buy her and ended up selling her for as much as I would have gotten for an AQHA..............but only because she was finished, proven, and winning!
Edited by rockinas 2014-01-20 9:01 AM
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I Really Love Jeans
Posts: 3173
Location: North Dakota | I know that may not be the case but I personally noticed that paints were cheaper when I was shopping last year. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| We got my solid paint mare and a nice POA mare in a trade for a $3,500 AQHA stupid gelding. The paint is now a 2D barrel horse and a super nice showmanship mare. We got a really good deal because she was a solid paint (built like a truck too!) | |
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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24955
Location: WYOMING | I have a B/W extremely broke nice 3 yr old daughter of Perks Alive. Saw someone looking for a FF prospect around her price range so I txted them about her. Their response was "thats close to budget but we wouldnt pay that for a paint anyway"... 
Edited by geronabean 2014-01-20 11:13 AM
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 I too, shall remain nameless!
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Location: Wearing a winter coat...... | I was told by many a race track trainers that they don't have the races out there like the quarter horses do. They money isn't the same and owners with nice mares aren't willing to risk breeding their black type mare and getting less. Years ago when the AQHA wouldn't do Embryo transfers and paints did, there were quite a few TOP mares bred to paints. I had a mare that was full bother to this gelding http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=TEXAS+... and she was bought at Heritage place for 3,500. Her dam sold there for 20-30,000 at the same sale. Her AQHA foals brought a ton too. The race track guys just aren't willing to race paints for so much less money. | |
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 The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED......
Just like Palominos....a color not a breed....
Edited by LIVE2RUN 2014-01-20 11:35 AM
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM
Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED......
Just like Palominos....a color not a breed....
False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed.
A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not.
There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed.
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
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Location: Kansas | I like paints, but I'm a flashy paint kinda gal. I don't think it's just paints.......look at apps, I've seen speed bred appaloosa go for dirt cheap because nobody wants to ride one. I personally like appaloosa as well | |
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Canine Carryout Queen
Location: Oklahoma | svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed.
Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color. | |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
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 Elite Veteran
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Location: Kansas (but Great Lakes member since 1978) | I didn't read all the posts but here is my take on it.
Color breeds began only for color. I remember seeing a lot of spots, palominos, apps, any color you can think of that were really pretty colored but their confirmation wasn't exactly anything I liked. Yes, I'm a AQHA person but I also own some mighty nice paints (no spots unfortunately). The Paint Horse Association started with people that wanted quality and color. I mainly consider myself a rodeo person and my husband and I are both mounted on paints and I'm also starting a palomino that I raised. In fact I have several palominos now because of my fondness for their breeding. They are pretty but a pain in the butt to keep their mane and tail hair white… HA! Anyway, I think the stigma from the past just hasn't quite gone away for the old "color is the only important thing with breeding a horse". | |
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 Expert
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Location: Royal J Performance Horses, AZ | Paints do sell for less and they are not as sought out. Thats why I only have 2 paint broodmares and one is my personal mare i ran barrels on and i only plan on breeding her twice for foals to keep.
Also Paints are not as fast on the track. Paints have not even began to approach the success quarter horses have had on the track. Every body who likes paints Looks at Judys lineage and texas Hero, ETC like they are gods in the paint world. WHere if a QH had their record on the track most people wouldnt give them a 2nd look as a stud.
I have recently found a racing paint stud i LOVE and definitely plan on breeding him to one of my QH track mares. He has over 100K earned on the track and is a AAAT. I feel he is approaching a high standard for paints and think he could be the next great sire in the paint horse world. | |
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 Elite Veteran
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| I will probably get flamed badly for this but I personally will probably never own a paint. It would have to be a good deal on an absolutely exceptional horse for me to spend my money on a paint rather than a QH. I realize that they're pretty much the same thing, but I think my pet peeve comes from showing as a kid and everybody and their dog had a paint and they were the "in thing" at the time, but it never seemed like any of them really won, so I guess I just got it in my head that paints were no good. I realize now that that's not the case and theres plenty of good ones out there, they're just not really my thing... | |
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 Member
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Location: FL | From personal experience I can tell you my paint mare has been fast enough to run with a lot of them. She might be a little quirkie but that makes her who she is...and always got compliments on how pretty she is.
She also by a full brother of Alive N Firen and out of a solid paint mare. But I guess I am a little partial.
I also own QH's and have all my life. Color doesn't make the horse anyway. I would ride a grade horse if it took me to the pay window!
Edited by cowponyp 2014-01-20 12:31 PM
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol | |
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The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
Technically you call a horse with paint markings, no matter what breed, a pinto. Paint markings can show up anywhere, you are correct. But it is the exception, not the rule. Just like with paints - color is the rule, not the exception. Paints are paints because of their DNA, not just their color. Which like a PP said, is why they allow cropout non-colored horses to be registered. It's science.
The argument that you can get a cropout colored horse from any breed is a bit silly.
If I breed two bulldog QHs and end up with a long legged tall thing with a low back - I won't/can't register it as a TB. If I breed a roman-nosed QH and end up with a dish-faced foal - I'm not going to get it into the Arab register.
Breed is determined by genes, not outward appearance. QH and Paints are separate breeds on the molecular level - even though they may appear very similar to the eye. There are dominant and recessive genes that when bred to the right match, can show up or not show up accordingly.
Another example is with dogs. Borer Collies are famously black and white or red and white. Just because other breeds of dogs can have these same colors, doesn't take away the fact that a border collie is a breed in its own right.
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto | |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto
YES! | |
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| APHA has done everything they can to cut their own throats and therefore I do not breed any paints anymore !!
The entire Paint Journal is dedicated to Halter and Western Pleasure shows and their judges for years would only look at qh bred paints with minimal white with no horses showing color at any of their shows ....
Just read the nonsense they use to keep solid colored horses out of paint competition in other events including racing and the newly formed PBRIP ....
The executive secretaries of APHA have come from the appy horse club after they ruined it with their color requirements and many other non horse owner type of rules and requirements. They are doing a fantastic job of destroying APHA right now!!
Reading the APHA RULE BOOK is just like threading thru the mess of rules and regulations for OBAMACARE ...
As a paint breeder even with every horse in the pedigree having regular registry ... you stand a chance of having solid colored foals 40% of the time ... this is data from APHA annual registry!! A breeder cannot take the low price hit over and over again since APHA disallows solids to compete in the open classes along with other colored paints and form races and restrict races on solids. Yet they allow crop out qh's to be registered and sire solid colored foals .. i.e. ... out of the top 5 racing sires ... 4 are cropout quarter horses and Judys Lineage is the only one that is a legit paint ... and then APHA comes along and demands colored horses in the big money races and boots the solids out as if they were step children ...
Click on this link for the PRIP rules and scroll down to WHAT ARE THE RULES and read the requirements for you to receive any of the side pot monies riding a paint ... it is the same nonsense they applied to racing and they can't fill a 10 horse field now with the current rules which takes purse money away from the paint races ... APHA is in desperation and trying to up their membership by attacking the barrel races ... kick them out of barrels until they get APHA running without all the restrictions ...
keep your barrel associations free from any restrictions where grade, solid paints, ponies or you name it can run in the opens and major races where the money is!!
http://apha.com/pbrip
The fix is very easy .... if your horse is registered a paint regardless if it is solid or colored it should have full access to compete in the open classes full bore without being restricted if it is solid. IF IT IS REGISTERED A PAINT ... IT IS A PAINT !! SHOULD BE THE RULE...
Lot of information on this link to verify anything I have stated above and a lot more you need to know before you try to hang me ... lol ...
http://www.apha.com/breed/solidpaint-bred
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | BARRELHORSE USA - 2014-01-20 11:43 AM APHA has done everything they can to cut their own throats and therefore I do not breed any paints anymore !! The entire Paint Journal is dedicated to Halter and Western Pleasure shows and their judges for years would only look at qh bred paints with minimal white with no horses showing color at any of their shows .... Just read the nonsense they use to keep solid colored horses out of paint competition in other events including racing and the newly formed PBRIP .... The executive secretaries of APHA have come from the appy horse club after they ruined it with their color requirements and many other non horse owner type of rules and requirements. They are doing a fantastic job of destroying APHA right now!! Reading the APHA RULE BOOK is just like threading thru the mess of rules and regulations for OBAMACARE ... As a paint breeder even with every horse in the pedigree having regular registry ... you stand a chance of having solid colored foals 40% of the time ... this is data from APHA annual registry!! A breeder cannot take the low price hit over and over again since APHA disallows solids to compete in the open classes along with other colored paints and form races and restrict races on solids. Yet they allow crop out qh's to be registered and sire solid colored foals .. i.e. ... out of the top 5 racing sires ... 4 are cropout quarter horses and Judys Lineage is the only one that is a legit paint ... and then APHA comes along and demands colored horses in the big money races and boots the solids out as if they were step children ... Click on this link for the PRIP rules and scroll down to WHAT ARE THE RULES and read the requirements for you to receive any of the side pot monies riding a paint ... it is the same nonsense they applied to racing and they can't fill a 10 horse field now with the current rules which takes purse money away from the paint races ... APHA is in desperation and trying to up their membership by attacking the barrel races ... kick them out of barrels until they get APHA running without all the restrictions ... keep your barrel associations free from any restrictions where grade, solid paints, ponies or you name it can run in the opens and major races where the money is!! http://apha.com/pbrip The fix is very easy .... if your horse is registered a paint regardless if it is solid or colored it should have full access to compete in the open classes full bore without being restricted if it is solid. IF IT IS REGISTERED A PAINT ... IT IS A PAINT !! SHOULD BE THE RULE... Lot of information on this link to verify anything I have stated above and a lot more you need to know before you try to hang me ... lol ... http://www.apha.com/breed/solidpaint-bred
I agree with a lot here. barrels is a speed event and restricting it to colored horses is stupid. if 40% turn out solid then those horses should have a way to keep up their value. all the rules and regulations are dragging apha down. | |
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The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | svincent - 2014-01-20 12:34 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto
YES!
The color would be classed as a Pinto but the breed an Arabian....??? | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 602
| Around here paints are not know to be successful in the barrel pen. I do see alot in reining and roping but I can honestly say Ive never seen a nice barrel racing paint. The ones Ive seen are a pain in the a** and do not run that great. I personally am not a fan of the paint look, I like the plain old sorrels. | |
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Cute Little Imp
Posts: 2747
Location: N Texas | LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:14 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 12:34 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto
YES!
The color would be classed as a Pinto but the breed an Arabian....???
This is a direct quote from the Pinto Association website:
"A frequently asked question about the Pinto is “what’s the difference between an American Paint horse and a Pinto horse?” American Paint horses are limited to registered bloodlines of Paint, American Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred horses, whereas the Pinto can be from an array of bloodlines including the Arabian, American Saddlebred, American Miniature Horse, Tennessee Walking Horse and American Shetland Pony to name a few. The PtHA does not accept Appaloosa, Draft or Mule breedings and/or characteristics, except for non-characteristic Appaloosa geldings."
The term "pinto" is used to describe a coat pattern. The term "paint" is in reference to the breed, although most people refer to ANY colored horse as a paint, whether it is registered or not.
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | Gunner11 - 2014-01-20 2:30 PM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:14 PM svincent - 2014-01-20 12:34 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color. which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL. Exactly.lol Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed... I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto YES! The color would be classed as a Pinto but the breed an Arabian....??? This is a direct quote from the Pinto Association website: "A frequently asked question about the Pinto is “what’s the difference between an American Paint horse and a Pinto horse?” American Paint horses are limited to registered bloodlines of Paint, American Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred horses, whereas the Pinto can be from an array of bloodlines including the Arabian, American Saddlebred, American Miniature Horse, Tennessee Walking Horse and American Shetland Pony to name a few. The PtHA does not accept Appaloosa, Draft or Mule breedings and/or characteristics, except for non-characteristic Appaloosa geldings." The term "pinto" is used to describe a coat pattern. The term "paint" is in reference to the breed, although most people refer to ANY colored horse as a paint, whether it is registered or not.
and thus why APH is not actually a breed....... | |
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Cute Little Imp
Posts: 2747
Location: N Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-01-20 2:34 PM
Gunner11 - 2014-01-20 2:30 PM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:14 PM svincent - 2014-01-20 12:34 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color. which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL. Exactly.lol Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed... I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto YES! The color would be classed as a Pinto but the breed an Arabian....??? This is a direct quote from the Pinto Association website: "A frequently asked question about the Pinto is “what’s the difference between an American Paint horse and a Pinto horse?” American Paint horses are limited to registered bloodlines of Paint, American Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred horses, whereas the Pinto can be from an array of bloodlines including the Arabian, American Saddlebred, American Miniature Horse, Tennessee Walking Horse and American Shetland Pony to name a few. The PtHA does not accept Appaloosa, Draft or Mule breedings and/or characteristics, except for non-characteristic Appaloosa geldings." The term "pinto" is used to describe a coat pattern. The term "paint" is in reference to the breed, although most people refer to ANY colored horse as a paint, whether it is registered or not.
Technically it is a breed, because you have to have registered parents in order to register your foal. However, only one parent has to be registered with APHA. The other can be AQHA or Jockey Club (I believe you can only cross with quarter horses and thoroughbreds and still be able to register them as a paint). So you still have to have two registered parents to register a foal.
I believe they allow this so they can improve the breed to be more versatile and athletic, hence why so many paints nowadays have QH or TB conformation. | |
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The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | Gunner11 - 2014-01-20 1:30 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:14 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 12:34 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto
YES!
The color would be classed as a Pinto but the breed an Arabian....???
This is a direct quote from the Pinto Association website:
"A frequently asked question about the Pinto is “what’s the difference between an American Paint horse and a Pinto horse?” American Paint horses are limited to registered bloodlines of Paint, American Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred horses, whereas the Pinto can be from an array of bloodlines including the Arabian, American Saddlebred, American Miniature Horse, Tennessee Walking Horse and American Shetland Pony to name a few. The PtHA does not accept Appaloosa, Draft or Mule breedings and/or characteristics, except for non-characteristic Appaloosa geldings."
The term "pinto" is used to describe a coat pattern. The term "paint" is in reference to the breed, although most people refer to ANY colored horse as a paint, whether it is registered or not.
I totally understand the Pinto Association. It's when people say I own a Paint...okay great what kind? This is how I see it...you can have a Paint(colored horse) from any "bloodline" (breed) its the "associations" that define what you have....lol! | |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:45 PM
Gunner11 - 2014-01-20 1:30 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:14 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 12:34 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto
YES!
The color would be classed as a Pinto but the breed an Arabian....???
This is a direct quote from the Pinto Association website:
"A frequently asked question about the Pinto is “what’s the difference between an American Paint horse and a Pinto horse?” American Paint horses are limited to registered bloodlines of Paint, American Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred horses, whereas the Pinto can be from an array of bloodlines including the Arabian, American Saddlebred, American Miniature Horse, Tennessee Walking Horse and American Shetland Pony to name a few. The PtHA does not accept Appaloosa, Draft or Mule breedings and/or characteristics, except for non-characteristic Appaloosa geldings."
The term "pinto" is used to describe a coat pattern. The term "paint" is in reference to the breed, although most people refer to ANY colored horse as a paint, whether it is registered or not.
I totally understand the Pinto Association. It's when people say I own a Paint...okay great what kind? This is how I see it...you can have a Paint (colored horse ) from any "bloodline" (breed ) its the "associations" that define what you have....lol!
When people say they have a paint, but really they have a pinto patterned Arabian - it is out of ignorance. If somebody has a pinto colored horse of any breeding other than APHA recognized lineage - it is a pinto, not a Paint. Paint is a breed, pinto is a term uses to describe the color pattern. Again, this is why solid paints can be registered.
IT'S ABOUT GENETICS AND DNA, not just about what you see with your eyes!
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Fire Ant Peddler
Posts: 2881
| When you go to a barrel race of any size I bet that at least 1/3 of the horses there are solid color paints. | |
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The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | svincent - 2014-01-20 2:04 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:45 PM
Gunner11 - 2014-01-20 1:30 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:14 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 12:34 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto
YES!
The color would be classed as a Pinto but the breed an Arabian....???
This is a direct quote from the Pinto Association website:
"A frequently asked question about the Pinto is “what’s the difference between an American Paint horse and a Pinto horse?” American Paint horses are limited to registered bloodlines of Paint, American Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred horses, whereas the Pinto can be from an array of bloodlines including the Arabian, American Saddlebred, American Miniature Horse, Tennessee Walking Horse and American Shetland Pony to name a few. The PtHA does not accept Appaloosa, Draft or Mule breedings and/or characteristics, except for non-characteristic Appaloosa geldings."
The term "pinto" is used to describe a coat pattern. The term "paint" is in reference to the breed, although most people refer to ANY colored horse as a paint, whether it is registered or not.
I totally understand the Pinto Association. It's when people say I own a Paint...okay great what kind? This is how I see it...you can have a Paint (colored horse ) from any "bloodline" (breed ) its the "associations" that define what you have....lol!
When people say they have a paint, but really they have a pinto patterned Arabian - it is out of ignorance. If somebody has a pinto colored horse of any breeding other than APHA recognized lineage - it is a pinto, not a Paint. Paint is a breed, pinto is a term uses to describe the color pattern. Again, this is why solid paints can be registered.
IT'S ABOUT GENETICS AND DNA, not just about what you see with your eyes!
I guess I just won't ever see it that way. Two registered AQHA horses that have a foal and it happens to come out colored is a Paint? Hmm...I see the horse as a quarter horse that the AQHA won't register, thus it's now a APHA quarter horse..but still a quarter horse. I call those quarter horse Paint.... | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | Guess it depends on what part of the country you are in. I have always made more money on Paints than QHs. I'll take all the big tobiano geldings..........there is such a good market for them here in the east. It's the QHs that you can't give away here.
Too bad that so many people have a "thing" against paints. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | hotpaints - 2014-01-20 5:08 PM
Guess it depends on what part of the country you are in. I have always made more money on Paints than QHs. I'll take all the big tobiano geldings..........there is such a good market for them here in the east. It's the QHs that you can't give away here.
Too bad that so many people have a "thing" against paints.
I agree completely. It is very regional. For that reason, I really, really miss $1/gallon gas! ha!
You absolutely cannot make a generalization about Paint pricing - because regional and discipline difference are huge.
It's easy to see why QH race horses are worth more - they run for far, far more money. The APHA has, in my opinion, just not done it's job helping Paint racing in the different states. We had a lot of states get a good start . . . and just die off.
I've very hopeful the new barrel incentive program will be helpful for prospect prices. That's the kind of thing we have desperately needed.
About 15 years ago the Paint industry was turning out a bunch of junk with color. A few good horses were still being bred - I'd say most of them at the track but I'm biased. It will take us a very, very long time to get over the bad reputation we built for ourselves by breeding all that colored junk.
In the last year or so I'm starting to hear breeders who have quit pricing their solids lower than their colored foals. These are people with good horses bred to do something for a living - that won't work with backyard pets. I think that is a very interesting concept . . . I'll be interested to see if it takes off or not. I haven't gotten there yet.
From our perspective, the good Paints still sell but you have to be able to prove that you aren't one of those Paint breeders who just breeds for color. I always have a pen full of solids I can prove that with. ;-) If you are looking for prospects to buy, train and sell, the maximum potential profit, I think, is in solid Paints. Buy the discounted prospect and sell the non-discounted finished horse. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | moeman17 - 2014-01-19 5:13 PM I would like to know why you guys think paints don't bring as much as quarters horses? No matter how well bred they are. I was able to get this guy for a great price and nothing wrong with him, two outs on the track and well broke, just getting a handle on him now, super smart, coming along great.http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/jl+lacis+bow
Oh, fun! We owned your colt's second dam's sire until his death. We was an awesome barrel horse sire - and a wonderful horse. I still miss him. He was just cool. HotPaints' stud is a son.
I will say this - Raise Your Rocket was bred to be a speed demon and was a great barrel sire. He was pretty much a bust as a track sire though. So he might have contributed to you getting your colt cheap from the track - but he'll be advantage to you now!
If you are curious, here's more:
http://ausranch.com/raise-your-rocket/ | |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 4:25 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 2:04 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:45 PM
Gunner11 - 2014-01-20 1:30 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:14 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 12:34 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto
YES!
The color would be classed as a Pinto but the breed an Arabian....???
This is a direct quote from the Pinto Association website:
"A frequently asked question about the Pinto is “what’s the difference between an American Paint horse and a Pinto horse?” American Paint horses are limited to registered bloodlines of Paint, American Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred horses, whereas the Pinto can be from an array of bloodlines including the Arabian, American Saddlebred, American Miniature Horse, Tennessee Walking Horse and American Shetland Pony to name a few. The PtHA does not accept Appaloosa, Draft or Mule breedings and/or characteristics, except for non-characteristic Appaloosa geldings."
The term "pinto" is used to describe a coat pattern. The term "paint" is in reference to the breed, although most people refer to ANY colored horse as a paint, whether it is registered or not.
I totally understand the Pinto Association. It's when people say I own a Paint...okay great what kind? This is how I see it...you can have a Paint (colored horse ) from any "bloodline" (breed ) its the "associations" that define what you have....lol!
When people say they have a paint, but really they have a pinto patterned Arabian - it is out of ignorance. If somebody has a pinto colored horse of any breeding other than APHA recognized lineage - it is a pinto, not a Paint. Paint is a breed, pinto is a term uses to describe the color pattern. Again, this is why solid paints can be registered.
IT'S ABOUT GENETICS AND DNA, not just about what you see with your eyes!
I guess I just won't ever see it that way. Two registered AQHA horses that have a foal and it happens to come out colored is a Paint? Hmm...I see the horse as a quarter horse that the AQHA won't register, thus it's now a APHA quarter horse..but still a quarter horse. I call those quarter horse Paint....
AQHA changed that rule years ago. if you have two registered AQHA parents, the foal is registrable as AQHA no matter what his color pattern.
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 4:25 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 2:04 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:45 PM
Gunner11 - 2014-01-20 1:30 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:14 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 12:34 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto
YES!
The color would be classed as a Pinto but the breed an Arabian....???
This is a direct quote from the Pinto Association website:
"A frequently asked question about the Pinto is “what’s the difference between an American Paint horse and a Pinto horse?” American Paint horses are limited to registered bloodlines of Paint, American Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred horses, whereas the Pinto can be from an array of bloodlines including the Arabian, American Saddlebred, American Miniature Horse, Tennessee Walking Horse and American Shetland Pony to name a few. The PtHA does not accept Appaloosa, Draft or Mule breedings and/or characteristics, except for non-characteristic Appaloosa geldings."
The term "pinto" is used to describe a coat pattern. The term "paint" is in reference to the breed, although most people refer to ANY colored horse as a paint, whether it is registered or not.
I totally understand the Pinto Association. It's when people say I own a Paint...okay great what kind? This is how I see it...you can have a Paint (colored horse ) from any "bloodline" (breed ) its the "associations" that define what you have....lol!
When people say they have a paint, but really they have a pinto patterned Arabian - it is out of ignorance. If somebody has a pinto colored horse of any breeding other than APHA recognized lineage - it is a pinto, not a Paint. Paint is a breed, pinto is a term uses to describe the color pattern. Again, this is why solid paints can be registered.
IT'S ABOUT GENETICS AND DNA, not just about what you see with your eyes!
I guess I just won't ever see it that way. Two registered AQHA horses that have a foal and it happens to come out colored is a Paint? Hmm...I see the horse as a quarter horse that the AQHA won't register, thus it's now a APHA quarter horse..but still a quarter horse. I call those quarter horse Paint....
It's not really a question of how a person sees it. Paint is a breed - scientific fact. And AQHA changed that rule years ago. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 101
| svincent - 2014-01-20 9:39 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 4:25 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 2:04 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:45 PM
Gunner11 - 2014-01-20 1:30 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:14 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 12:34 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto
YES!
The color would be classed as a Pinto but the breed an Arabian....???
This is a direct quote from the Pinto Association website:
"A frequently asked question about the Pinto is “what’s the difference between an American Paint horse and a Pinto horse?” American Paint horses are limited to registered bloodlines of Paint, American Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred horses, whereas the Pinto can be from an array of bloodlines including the Arabian, American Saddlebred, American Miniature Horse, Tennessee Walking Horse and American Shetland Pony to name a few. The PtHA does not accept Appaloosa, Draft or Mule breedings and/or characteristics, except for non-characteristic Appaloosa geldings."
The term "pinto" is used to describe a coat pattern. The term "paint" is in reference to the breed, although most people refer to ANY colored horse as a paint, whether it is registered or not.
I totally understand the Pinto Association. It's when people say I own a Paint...okay great what kind? This is how I see it...you can have a Paint (colored horse ) from any "bloodline" (breed ) its the "associations" that define what you have....lol!
When people say they have a paint, but really they have a pinto patterned Arabian - it is out of ignorance. If somebody has a pinto colored horse of any breeding other than APHA recognized lineage - it is a pinto, not a Paint. Paint is a breed, pinto is a term uses to describe the color pattern. Again, this is why solid paints can be registered.
IT'S ABOUT GENETICS AND DNA, not just about what you see with your eyes!
I guess I just won't ever see it that way. Two registered AQHA horses that have a foal and it happens to come out colored is a Paint? Hmm...I see the horse as a quarter horse that the AQHA won't register, thus it's now a APHA quarter horse..but still a quarter horse. I call those quarter horse Paint....
It's not really a question of how a person sees it. Paint is a breed - scientific fact. And AQHA changed that rule years ago.
If it helps horse monopoly recognizes Paint as a breed :P | |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | Kaitlyn19 - 2014-01-20 9:52 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 9:39 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 4:25 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 2:04 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:45 PM
Gunner11 - 2014-01-20 1:30 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:14 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 12:34 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM
LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM
Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM
svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL.
Exactly.lol
Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed...
I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto
YES!
The color would be classed as a Pinto but the breed an Arabian....???
This is a direct quote from the Pinto Association website:
"A frequently asked question about the Pinto is “what’s the difference between an American Paint horse and a Pinto horse?” American Paint horses are limited to registered bloodlines of Paint, American Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred horses, whereas the Pinto can be from an array of bloodlines including the Arabian, American Saddlebred, American Miniature Horse, Tennessee Walking Horse and American Shetland Pony to name a few. The PtHA does not accept Appaloosa, Draft or Mule breedings and/or characteristics, except for non-characteristic Appaloosa geldings."
The term "pinto" is used to describe a coat pattern. The term "paint" is in reference to the breed, although most people refer to ANY colored horse as a paint, whether it is registered or not.
I totally understand the Pinto Association. It's when people say I own a Paint...okay great what kind? This is how I see it...you can have a Paint (colored horse ) from any "bloodline" (breed ) its the "associations" that define what you have....lol!
When people say they have a paint, but really they have a pinto patterned Arabian - it is out of ignorance. If somebody has a pinto colored horse of any breeding other than APHA recognized lineage - it is a pinto, not a Paint. Paint is a breed, pinto is a term uses to describe the color pattern. Again, this is why solid paints can be registered.
IT'S ABOUT GENETICS AND DNA, not just about what you see with your eyes!
I guess I just won't ever see it that way. Two registered AQHA horses that have a foal and it happens to come out colored is a Paint? Hmm...I see the horse as a quarter horse that the AQHA won't register, thus it's now a APHA quarter horse..but still a quarter horse. I call those quarter horse Paint....
It's not really a question of how a person sees it. Paint is a breed - scientific fact. And AQHA changed that rule years ago.
If it helps horse monopoly recognizes Paint as a breed :P
There's not much to argue about after learning Monopoly's official position on the matter. ;) | |
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 Toy Story Fanatic
Posts: 4148
Location: Oregon | Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 9:53 AM svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color.
Paint is a breed...however in order to be registered paint they have to be ONLY quarter horse or thoroughbred. Pinto is just a color registry...any breed or mutt type. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Honeymoney - 2014-01-20 4:21 PM When you go to a barrel race of any size I bet that at least 1/3 of the horses there are solid color paints.
I've got 2. They look like QHs. They have QH bloodlines. You can't tell the difference between them and my AQHA horses, but they are solid paints. One is eligible for the new incentive, because he had colored parents; the other is not because she's the product of a QH x solid paint mating. Ironically, the mare has way more white than the gelding, just not enough to qualify for regular papers. | |
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| APHA MISSION STATEMENT has always called APHA a breed organization .....>>>>
Mission Statement
Our mission is to collect, record and preserve the pedigrees of American
Paint Horses and to stimulate and regulate all matters that pertain to the
promotion, history, breeding and exhibition of this breed.
Our success depends upon our ability to provide fiscally responsible and
efficient services to our members.
We aspire to excellence in record keeping, reporting, recruiting,
educating and supporting our membership, so that we may inspire
confidence and create in them a desire to use our services.
We serve both the breed and our members by being ever aware of the
industry and market, and of the needs, opportunities and challenges of our
members
But the problems is in their rules they revert to a colored horse association with limitations and restrictions on horses that are registered paints. You can tell without asking if they own or have ever owned a horse or competed in a horse event because of the stupid way rules are written and expressed.
This is on Page 9-10 of the proposed rule changes at the 2014 convention for Barrel racing pattern ... these fools have no idea how to show the measurements on the pattern or having a clear approach zone prior to the start/finish line//timers ...... guess they watched the pattern at the NFR with its 12 ft inset ..... ... lol ...
http://www.apha.com/docs/default-source/rules/2013-rule-change-prop...
The more familiar you get with APHA rules the more aware you will be of the oxymoron rules you will see implemented by these morons ........
ANOTHER BASIC MORON DECISION:
The 2014 APHA RULE BOOK WILL NOT BE PRINTED BUT YOU CAN DOWNLOAD TO YOUR PHONE ONLY ....
( this was not a cost savings move .... they have started two of the dumbest new magazines you have ever seen along with the Paint Journal and a monthly paint magazine and put the Racing Journal on the internet duhhhh) this is 4 printed magazines!!
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2014-01-20 11:00 PM
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 Chicken Chick
Posts: 3562
Location: Texas | Kaitlyn19 - 2014-01-20 9:52 PM svincent - 2014-01-20 9:39 PM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 4:25 PM svincent - 2014-01-20 2:04 PM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:45 PM Gunner11 - 2014-01-20 1:30 PM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 2:14 PM svincent - 2014-01-20 12:34 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-01-20 1:33 PM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 1:19 PM svincent - 2014-01-20 11:29 AM casualdust07 - 2014-01-20 11:56 AM Runnin < C > - 2014-01-20 11:53 AM svincent - 2014-01-20 11:41 AM LIVE2RUN - 2014-01-20 11:32 AM Reading threw these posts confuse me. A Paint is a COLOR not a BREED...... Just like Palominos....a color not a breed.... False... The American Paint Horse IS A BREED. Palomino is a color, buckskin is a color, dun is a color, brown is a color. Paint is a breed. A breed is any group of animals with a homogenous, regular phenotype/genotype. If you breed two paints, you are going to get a paint (exceptions for the crop out/plain marked ) - if you breed two palominos, you might get one, you might not. There are crop out QHs also that have "excessive white" - there are the oddballs in every group - but I assure you, the APH is most definitely its own specific breed. Correct, Paint is a breed. Not a color. which is why they allow solid paints to be registered… LOL. Exactly.lol Hmm, I still don't agree...if you have two quarter horses, you breed them and you get a colored horse...what is the horse? If you have two Arabians you breed them and you get a colored horse, what is the horse? I guess I just don't see a "paint" as a breed. I see it as a color....I understand that the AQHA won't register a horse of color thus the APHA was formed... I believe if you breed 2 Arabians and got coloured, they would still be registered Arabian color would be pinto YES! The color would be classed as a Pinto but the breed an Arabian....??? This is a direct quote from the Pinto Association website: "A frequently asked question about the Pinto is “what’s the difference between an American Paint horse and a Pinto horse?” American Paint horses are limited to registered bloodlines of Paint, American Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred horses, whereas the Pinto can be from an array of bloodlines including the Arabian, American Saddlebred, American Miniature Horse, Tennessee Walking Horse and American Shetland Pony to name a few. The PtHA does not accept Appaloosa, Draft or Mule breedings and/or characteristics, except for non-characteristic Appaloosa geldings." The term "pinto" is used to describe a coat pattern. The term "paint" is in reference to the breed, although most people refer to ANY colored horse as a paint, whether it is registered or not. I totally understand the Pinto Association. It's when people say I own a Paint...okay great what kind? This is how I see it...you can have a Paint (colored horse ) from any "bloodline" (breed ) its the "associations" that define what you have....lol! When people say they have a paint, but really they have a pinto patterned Arabian - it is out of ignorance. If somebody has a pinto colored horse of any breeding other than APHA recognized lineage - it is a pinto, not a Paint. Paint is a breed, pinto is a term uses to describe the color pattern. Again, this is why solid paints can be registered. IT'S ABOUT GENETICS AND DNA, not just about what you see with your eyes! I guess I just won't ever see it that way. Two registered AQHA horses that have a foal and it happens to come out colored is a Paint? Hmm...I see the horse as a quarter horse that the AQHA won't register, thus it's now a APHA quarter horse..but still a quarter horse. I call those quarter horse Paint.... It's not really a question of how a person sees it. Paint is a breed - scientific fact. And AQHA changed that rule years ago. If it helps horse monopoly recognizes Paint as a breed :P
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Veteran
Posts: 185
| Just my thoughts but a quarter horse has the potential either to be also registered APHA or its offspring could be registered APHA (more options). Where as a APHA horse's offspring cannot be AQHA registered.
When I was shopping I looked at both AQHA and APHA registered horses (including solid breds). However I could tell I preferred to get an AQHA. Perhapes because the registry is larger? There are also more AQHA shows in my area. Also as pointed out they are (can be) more marketable for resale. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1664
Location: iowa | the best horse we ever owned...and the only paint..we so regret selling him and if i could find him, i would buy him back in a minute..even tho he would be 24 this year....
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Attachments
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 31084_399867311897_5550281_n.jpg (28KB - 246 downloads)
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Looking For Fun!
Posts: 4067
Location: Feeding those that need me | Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-20 10:44 PM
Honeymoney - 2014-01-20 4:21 PM When you go to a barrel race of any size I bet that at least 1/3 of the horses there are solid color paints.
I've got 2. They look like QHs. They have QH bloodlines. You can't tell the difference between them and my AQHA horses, but they are solid paints. One is eligible for the new incentive, because he had colored parents; the other is not because she's the product of a QH x solid paint mating. Ironically, the mare has way more white than the gelding, just not enough to qualify for regular papers.
As long as they were born before 2013, they are both eligible. APHA changed the rule this week. As of now, all APHA registered horses born before 2013 are eligible for PBRIP money regardless of parentage. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | GhostDancer - 2014-01-21 10:30 AM Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-20 10:44 PM Honeymoney - 2014-01-20 4:21 PM When you go to a barrel race of any size I bet that at least 1/3 of the horses there are solid color paints. I've got 2. They look like QHs. They have QH bloodlines. You can't tell the difference between them and my AQHA horses, but they are solid paints. One is eligible for the new incentive, because he had colored parents; the other is not because she's the product of a QH x solid paint mating. Ironically, the mare has way more white than the gelding, just not enough to qualify for regular papers. As long as they were born before 2013, they are both eligible. APHA changed the rule this week. As of now, all APHA registered horses born before 2013 are eligible for PBRIP money regardless of parentage.
Oh cool, I didn't know that! She's a 2010, so we're good. Thanks for letting me know. | |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | spitzh - 2014-01-20 2:26 PM
Around here paints are not know to be successful in the barrel pen. I do see alot in reining and roping but I can honestly say Ive never seen a nice barrel racing paint. The ones Ive seen are a pain in the a** and do not run that great. I personally am not a fan of the paint look, I like the plain old sorrels.
Charmayne James made it to the NFR on a paint named Magic, Kim West made it to the NFR on a black and white paint...I think his name was TBar....both of them were COLORED paints...there are some others that have made it on solid paints, but I can't remember their names right now. | |
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Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | CowgirlLindz - 2014-01-21 8:04 AM
Just my thoughts but a quarter horse has the potential either to be also registered APHA or its offspring could be registered APHA (more options). Where as a APHA horse's offspring cannot be AQHA registered.
When I was shopping I looked at both AQHA and APHA registered horses (including solid breds). However I could tell I preferred to get an AQHA. Perhapes because the registry is larger? There are also more AQHA shows in my area. Also as pointed out they are (can be) more marketable for resale.
A quarter horse cannot be registered APHA. That changed in 2008, I believe (maybe 2006). My memory's not what it used to be. They must have one paint parent in order to qualify for APHA registration. If they are a cropout now, they are registered with AQHA and have "excessive white" on their papers. They CANNOT be registered APHA. | |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | dianeguinn - 2014-01-21 10:51 AM
CowgirlLindz - 2014-01-21 8:04 AM
Just my thoughts but a quarter horse has the potential either to be also registered APHA or its offspring could be registered APHA (more options). Where as a APHA horse's offspring cannot be AQHA registered.
When I was shopping I looked at both AQHA and APHA registered horses (including solid breds). However I could tell I preferred to get an AQHA. Perhapes because the registry is larger? There are also more AQHA shows in my area. Also as pointed out they are (can be) more marketable for resale.
A quarter horse cannot be registered APHA. That changed in 2008, I believe (maybe 2006 ). My memory's not what it used to be. They must have one paint parent in order to qualify for APHA registration. If they are a cropout now, they are registered with AQHA and have "excessive white" on their papers. They CANNOT be registered APHA.
^^this is correct! | |
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 Ms Bling Bling Sleeze Kitty
Posts: 20917
Location: LouLouVille, OK | I had paints back in the day..and for awhile there, alot of people bred for color... not bone, not brains, not anything other then color... so for awhile I think Paints got a bad rap for poor breeding choices...
I am not opposed to a nice paint, Im actually a sucker for a well made paint (or QH)
(I haven't read all the responses either, this may have already been said) | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | I don't know squat about paint blood lines. So what are some of the good bloodlines y'all talk about. What about good paint blood lines in other disciplines? All I know is that I have a paint and he had APHA points at some time in his life. But the only thing that really matters to me is that he is good with my daughter. Also, if I wanted to get involved with APHA events, how would I need to go about doing that? | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1066
| dianeguinn - 2014-01-21 9:48 AM spitzh - 2014-01-20 2:26 PM Around here paints are not know to be successful in the barrel pen. I do see alot in reining and roping but I can honestly say Ive never seen a nice barrel racing paint. The ones Ive seen are a pain in the a** and do not run that great. I personally am not a fan of the paint look, I like the plain old sorrels. Charmayne James made it to the NFR on a paint named Magic, Kim West made it to the NFR on a black and white paint...I think his name was TBar....both of them were COLORED paints...there are some others that have made it on solid paints, but I can't remember their names right now.
I believe Lee Ann Rust's gelding "Harley" is also registed as a Paint. | |
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 Dancing in my Mind
Posts: 3062
Location: Eastern OH but my heart is in WV | Everyone can just send me all their paints and appaloosas!!! 
Edited by Rolling J 2014-01-21 11:31 AM
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 Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | Runnin < C > - 2014-01-19 8:40 PM Unfortunately they are a lot harder to sell... especially solid paint breds.
I actually prefer the solids, with a blaze and 4 high socks!  | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | slacy09 - 2014-01-21 1:01 PM Runnin < C > - 2014-01-19 8:40 PM Unfortunately they are a lot harder to sell... especially solid paint breds. I actually prefer the solids, with a blaze and 4 high socks!
You'd love my girl then. She has a pretty chin spot to go with it.  | |
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 Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | AllAroundRider - 2014-01-19 5:46 PM
I have heard this a lot but not sure I have ever really seen proof of it although I think people can be more critical of paint stallions than a QH stallion bred almost identical with the same race/produce record because people will claim someone is only breeding to the paint for the color. I know some people just plain do not like a colored horse whether from old wives tales (they are all broncs, terrible feet, spooky, etc.) or from the fact white is a pain to keep clean. I have owned and do own several paints and I can't say I would value them any higher or lower than the QH's I have had.
I have heard this a lot, too- but in my own experience, I get better prices for Paints, Pintos, & Appaloosas (whether solid or colored) & they sell a lot faster. I suppose it depends on your area, and of course it depends on a horse's training, too. I agree with this comment about Paint stallions- same for Appy stallions. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | GhostDancer - 2014-01-21 9:30 AM
Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-20 10:44 PM
Honeymoney - 2014-01-20 4:21 PM When you go to a barrel race of any size I bet that at least 1/3 of the horses there are solid color paints.
I've got 2. They look like QHs. They have QH bloodlines. You can't tell the difference between them and my AQHA horses, but they are solid paints. One is eligible for the new incentive, because he had colored parents; the other is not because she's the product of a QH x solid paint mating. Ironically, the mare has way more white than the gelding, just not enough to qualify for regular papers.
As long as they were born before 2013, they are both eligible. APHA changed the rule this week. As of now, all APHA registered horses born before 2013 are eligible for PBRIP money regardless of parentage.
Really? Why? That's disappointing. (Sorry to those individual owners that it helped - I am happy for you.)
Did they change the stakes rules for racing and that affected the Barrel incentive or were the changes just made for the Barrel incentive?
To clarify, I was hoping to see the APHA's barrel incentive work out to be an incentive that would help those of us raising good old colored Paints to market our colts. If this requirement is dropped, it will help people selling finished barrel horses but I don't see it helping breeders. That's discouraging because it seems like the APHA was finally going to help us a little . . . .
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | ausranch - 2014-01-21 1:22 PM GhostDancer - 2014-01-21 9:30 AM Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-20 10:44 PM Honeymoney - 2014-01-20 4:21 PM When you go to a barrel race of any size I bet that at least 1/3 of the horses there are solid color paints. I've got 2. They look like QHs. They have QH bloodlines. You can't tell the difference between them and my AQHA horses, but they are solid paints. One is eligible for the new incentive, because he had colored parents; the other is not because she's the product of a QH x solid paint mating. Ironically, the mare has way more white than the gelding, just not enough to qualify for regular papers. As long as they were born before 2013, they are both eligible. APHA changed the rule this week. As of now, all APHA registered horses born before 2013 are eligible for PBRIP money regardless of parentage. Really? Why? That's disappointing. (Sorry to those individual owners that it helped - I am happy for you. ) Did they change the stakes rules for racing and that affected the Barrel incentive or were the changes just made for the Barrel incentive? To clarify, I was hoping to see the APHA's barrel incentive work out to be an incentive that would help those of us raising good old colored Paints to market our colts. If this requirement is dropped, it will help people selling finished barrel horses but I don't see it helping breeders. That's discouraging because it seems like the APHA was finally going to help us a little . . . .
Isn't what they're doing just grandfathering in babies born before the incentive existed? That seems like a good idea to get more people involved for the future. And then the babies have to have been an attempt at getting color past the 2013 cutoff. It makes good sense to me. | |
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Looking For Fun!
Posts: 4067
Location: Feeding those that need me | Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-21 1:28 PM
ausranch - 2014-01-21 1:22 PM GhostDancer - 2014-01-21 9:30 AM Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-20 10:44 PM Honeymoney - 2014-01-20 4:21 PM When you go to a barrel race of any size I bet that at least 1/3 of the horses there are solid color paints. I've got 2. They look like QHs. They have QH bloodlines. You can't tell the difference between them and my AQHA horses, but they are solid paints. One is eligible for the new incentive, because he had colored parents; the other is not because she's the product of a QH x solid paint mating. Ironically, the mare has way more white than the gelding, just not enough to qualify for regular papers. As long as they were born before 2013, they are both eligible. APHA changed the rule this week. As of now, all APHA registered horses born before 2013 are eligible for PBRIP money regardless of parentage. Really? Why? That's disappointing. (Sorry to those individual owners that it helped - I am happy for you. ) Did they change the stakes rules for racing and that affected the Barrel incentive or were the changes just made for the Barrel incentive? To clarify, I was hoping to see the APHA's barrel incentive work out to be an incentive that would help those of us raising good old colored Paints to market our colts. If this requirement is dropped, it will help people selling finished barrel horses but I don't see it helping breeders. That's discouraging because it seems like the APHA was finally going to help us a little . . . .
I think it was an excellent move for APHA to get more members involved and "jumping on the bandwagon". The rule that was in effect is still in effect for horses with foaling dates AFTER 2013, therefore they are helping both competitors and breeders out. Now that we breeders know that the incentive is in place, people are more likely to take their solid mares to colored stallions but those that were not aware of this program forming or the added bonus of having an eligible paint horse running and might have bred to a QH are still eligible since it was before the program was formed.
I see it as nothing but a good thing for the breed. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-21 12:28 PM
ausranch - 2014-01-21 1:22 PM GhostDancer - 2014-01-21 9:30 AM Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-20 10:44 PM Honeymoney - 2014-01-20 4:21 PM When you go to a barrel race of any size I bet that at least 1/3 of the horses there are solid color paints. I've got 2. They look like QHs. They have QH bloodlines. You can't tell the difference between them and my AQHA horses, but they are solid paints. One is eligible for the new incentive, because he had colored parents; the other is not because she's the product of a QH x solid paint mating. Ironically, the mare has way more white than the gelding, just not enough to qualify for regular papers. As long as they were born before 2013, they are both eligible. APHA changed the rule this week. As of now, all APHA registered horses born before 2013 are eligible for PBRIP money regardless of parentage. Really? Why? That's disappointing. (Sorry to those individual owners that it helped - I am happy for you. ) Did they change the stakes rules for racing and that affected the Barrel incentive or were the changes just made for the Barrel incentive? To clarify, I was hoping to see the APHA's barrel incentive work out to be an incentive that would help those of us raising good old colored Paints to market our colts. If this requirement is dropped, it will help people selling finished barrel horses but I don't see it helping breeders. That's discouraging because it seems like the APHA was finally going to help us a little . . . .
Three 4 Luck - I really am happy for you. No sarcasm. Really.
Yes, it's great for people who already have Paints they run or will be running. However, there is now no reason for someone to buy my yearlings, twos instead of one that has zero colored Paints in its pedigree. I was hoping this incentive was going to be something my Paint stud's colts would have going for them. To me, that's why you have incentive programs - to generate new sales.
In addition - we change rules a lot. This change makes me suspect we'll extend this thing again.
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 Ima Fickle Fan
Posts: 3547
Location: Texas | I think a big factor that has influenced the breed's worth is the association itself. From my perspective, APHA has been more reactive than proactive in its decisions and leadership for the last 20 or so years. Similar to QH, APHA's registry was founded upon horses meeting certain criteria, including conformation and color. Unfortunately, when their popularity soared during the '80s, breeders were more concerned on quantity than quality. This didn't help the breed's reputation. When people got tired of buying the colorful crap, the registry's numbers took a hit. (NOT saying that all breeders did this.)
To combat lower registration numbers and in response to QH's refusal to register cropouts, APHA gave the cropouts full papers. Unfortunately, this hurt the association in the long run because it increased the likelihood of getting a solid paint. Even worse, APHA has treated the solids like red-headed stepchildren and decreased those horses' values by limiting classes and incentives for them. Then when QH took the cropouts back, APHA passes the one-paint parent rule. (Again, reactive responses rather than proactive.)
At some point, the association needs to step up and address its problems. A lot of the perception about paints' value comes from years of stigma as well as a lack of effective breed promotion. For the poster who said APHA is mainly focused on halter and pleasure, that is because those are the people who show up at the meetings and gripe the loudest.
Another problem I think is the lack of knowledge of Paint bloodlines. Much of this is due to the lack of promotion. I think the association is making attempts to remedy the situation through different incentives, but that will take time.
Finally, the sheer numbers of QHs competing vs. Paints make it much more likely from a statistical viewpoint that a QH will win a major event rather than a Paint. And that is true no matter what the discipline is.
So to the Paint breeders who are breeding quality horses, KUDOS to you. People who know Paint horses, bloodlines, etc. will pay for those quality horses. It's the people who don't know much about Paints who balk at fair prices. | |
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Chi Chi Mama
Posts: 11212
Location: Spokompton, Wa | I wish I knew why. Last year I sold a APHA gelding out a quarter horse stallion and APHA mare. Frenchmans Guy, Biankus, Easy Jet Too and Easy Jet all on his papers. I basically gave him away. I had hardly any interest. He had a nice pattern and just needed hauled. I am guessing if he were AQHA, I could have easily doubled by price. | |
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| dianeguinn - 2014-01-21 10:51 AM
CowgirlLindz - 2014-01-21 8:04 AM
Just my thoughts but a quarter horse has the potential either to be also registered APHA or its offspring could be registered APHA (more options). Where as a APHA horse's offspring cannot be AQHA registered.
When I was shopping I looked at both AQHA and APHA registered horses (including solid breds). However I could tell I preferred to get an AQHA. Perhapes because the registry is larger? There are also more AQHA shows in my area. Also as pointed out they are (can be) more marketable for resale.
A quarter horse cannot be registered APHA. That changed in 2008, I believe (maybe 2006 ). My memory's not what it used to be. They must have one paint parent in order to qualify for APHA registration. If they are a cropout now, they are registered with AQHA and have "excessive white" on their papers. They CANNOT be registered APHA.
Sorry Diane;
You were reading the requirements for a solid colored paint baby and not the regular registry ....
REGULAR REGISTRY PAINTS ..... >>>>>
Look at rule RG 070 G in the 2014 rule book which reads ....
G. A horse with both sire and dam registered in the American Quarter Horse Association, The Jockey Club of New York or any foreign Thoroughbred registry recognized by The Jockey Club of New York, the combination of any two of these Associations with at least one specified “natural Paint marking” in the described zone in Figure B that exceeds 4-inches, shall be eligible for Regular Registry.
*****************************************************************
SOLID BRED PAINTS .....>>>>
are treated like step children or your neighbors ugly kids .... lol
Solid Paint-Bred Registry.
1. The solid Paint-Bred Registry is provided to record the pedigree of all stallions and mares and geldings not meeting the color requirements (RG-070) of the Regular Registry. The following horses will be listed in the regular Stud Book of the Association as solid Paint-Bred Horses.
a.
Resultant solid color foals fr
om two registered Paint Horses.
b.
Resultant solid color foals fr
om a Paint Horse registered in the American Paint Horse Association and a Quarter Horse registered in the American Quarter Horse Association or a Thoroughbred registered in the Jockey Club or any international Thoroughbred Registry recognized by the Jockey Club.
c.
All horses r
egistered prior to January 1, 2006 resulting from the breeding of two Quarter Horses or a Quarter Horse and a Thoroughbred or two Thoroughbreds that are ineligible for registration with their respective breed registry will remain classified as Breeding Stock/Identification Status.
2. Horses registered in the solid Paint-Bred/Breeding Stock Registry are restricted from competition with Regular Registry horses and do not have the same privileges as horses registered in the Regular Registry. See Rules SC-165. and RA-000.D. for restrictions.
C. Identification Status.
1. Solid colored geldings previously registered as stallions in the Breeding Stock registry (that do not have at least one Paint parent) will be accepted for identification status upon the surrender of the Breeding Stock certificate of registration and written notice of date of castration.
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Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | aggiejudger - 2014-01-21 2:39 PM
I think a big factor that has influenced the breed's worth is the association itself. From my perspective, APHA has been more reactive than proactive in its decisions and leadership for the last 20 or so years. Similar to QH, APHA's registry was founded upon horses meeting certain criteria, including conformation and color. Unfortunately, when their popularity soared during the '80s, breeders were more concerned on quantity than quality. This didn't help the breed's reputation. When people got tired of buying the colorful crap, the registry's numbers took a hit. (NOT saying that all breeders did this.)
To combat lower registration numbers and in response to QH's refusal to register cropouts, APHA gave the cropouts full papers. Unfortunately, this hurt the association in the long run because it increased the likelihood of getting a solid paint. Even worse, APHA has treated the solids like red-headed stepchildren and decreased those horses' values by limiting classes and incentives for them. Then when QH took the cropouts back, APHA passes the one-paint parent rule. (Again, reactive responses rather than proactive.)
At some point, the association needs to step up and address its problems. A lot of the perception about paints' value comes from years of stigma as well as a lack of effective breed promotion. For the poster who said APHA is mainly focused on halter and pleasure, that is because those are the people who show up at the meetings and gripe the loudest.
Another problem I think is the lack of knowledge of Paint bloodlines. Much of this is due to the lack of promotion. I think the association is making attempts to remedy the situation through different incentives, but that will take time.
Finally, the sheer numbers of QHs competing vs. Paints make it much more likely from a statistical viewpoint that a QH will win a major event rather than a Paint. And that is true no matter what the discipline is.
So to the Paint breeders who are breeding quality horses, KUDOS to you. People who know Paint horses, bloodlines, etc. will pay for those quality horses. It's the people who don't know much about Paints who balk at fair prices.
Well said. You make a thoughtful and reasoned argument. Thanks. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 392
Location: CA | ausranch - 2014-01-20 7:21 PM hotpaints - 2014-01-20 5:08 PM Guess it depends on what part of the country you are in. I have always made more money on Paints than QHs. I'll take all the big tobiano geldings..........there is such a good market for them here in the east. It's the QHs that you can't give away here.
Too bad that so many people have a "thing" against paints. I agree completely. It is very regional. For that reason, I really, really miss $1/gallon gas! ha! You absolutely cannot make a generalization about Paint pricing - because regional and discipline difference are huge. It's easy to see why QH race horses are worth more - they run for far, far more money. The APHA has, in my opinion, just not done it's job helping Paint racing in the different states. We had a lot of states get a good start . . . and just die off. I've very hopeful the new barrel incentive program will be helpful for prospect prices. That's the kind of thing we have desperately needed. About 15 years ago the Paint industry was turning out a bunch of junk with color. A few good horses were still being bred - I'd say most of them at the track but I'm biased. It will take us a very, very long time to get over the bad reputation we built for ourselves by breeding all that colored junk. In the last year or so I'm starting to hear breeders who have quit pricing their solids lower than their colored foals. These are people with good horses bred to do something for a living - that won't work with backyard pets. I think that is a very interesting concept . . . I'll be interested to see if it takes off or not. I haven't gotten there yet. From our perspective, the good Paints still sell but you have to be able to prove that you aren't one of those Paint breeders who just breeds for color. I always have a pen full of solids I can prove that with. ;- ) If you are looking for prospects to buy, train and sell, the maximum potential profit, I think, is in solid Paints. Buy the discounted prospect and sell the non-discounted finished horse.
I for one have benefited from solid paints being priced less then their colorful counterparts a couple times. I have an AQHA gelding and his maternal half brother who is a solid APHA. Honestly my APHA (from AUS ranch) seems to be the fancier and (so far) easier to train horse. The solid paint colt is such a natural and is not as hot as his brother.
I think alot of people would be surprised what horses are actually solid paints. If they aren't spotted you have no way to know how they are registered, unlesss you ask. | |
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| ausranch - 2014-01-21 5:25 PM
aggiejudger - 2014-01-21 2:39 PM
I think a big factor that has influenced the breed's worth is the association itself. From my perspective, APHA has been more reactive than proactive in its decisions and leadership for the last 20 or so years. Similar to QH, APHA's registry was founded upon horses meeting certain criteria, including conformation and color. Unfortunately, when their popularity soared during the '80s, breeders were more concerned on quantity than quality. This didn't help the breed's reputation. When people got tired of buying the colorful crap, the registry's numbers took a hit. (NOT saying that all breeders did this.)
To combat lower registration numbers and in response to QH's refusal to register cropouts, APHA gave the cropouts full papers. Unfortunately, this hurt the association in the long run because it increased the likelihood of getting a solid paint. Even worse, APHA has treated the solids like red-headed stepchildren and decreased those horses' values by limiting classes and incentives for them. Then when QH took the cropouts back, APHA passes the one-paint parent rule. (Again, reactive responses rather than proactive.)
At some point, the association needs to step up and address its problems. A lot of the perception about paints' value comes from years of stigma as well as a lack of effective breed promotion. For the poster who said APHA is mainly focused on halter and pleasure, that is because those are the people who show up at the meetings and gripe the loudest.
Another problem I think is the lack of knowledge of Paint bloodlines. Much of this is due to the lack of promotion. I think the association is making attempts to remedy the situation through different incentives, but that will take time.
Finally, the sheer numbers of QHs competing vs. Paints make it much more likely from a statistical viewpoint that a QH will win a major event rather than a Paint. And that is true no matter what the discipline is.
So to the Paint breeders who are breeding quality horses, KUDOS to you. People who know Paint horses, bloodlines, etc. will pay for those quality horses. It's the people who don't know much about Paints who balk at fair prices.
Well said. You make a thoughtful and reasoned argument. Thanks.
AGGIE ... you made a couple of decent points but do not realize that the APHA judges and people that run the APHA booths at shows only want to be in air conditioned arenas and will never show up at an outdoor function such as the race tracks of open arena events ... they are city slickers ... lol
APHA needs to close the books and kick anything out of APHA that is double registered or does not have a paint parent .... and stop allowing paints to be bred to quarter horses or thoroughbreds ........ PAINT TO PAINT .... DNA WILL ALWAYS FIND THE "RINGERS" THAT WILL EVENTUALLY SHOW UP AT APHA SHOWS ....
At the same time take all of the solid restrictions off of anything with one registered anything paint and open up all events to anything that is registered as a paint .. this will put value on the quality and superior bloodlines whether they have color or not...
you could very easily call APHA ..... RACIST ... lol...
It is like the rule change on the PHBIP ... it can't be legit because there are 3-4 standing rules saying solids cannot compete with colored paints .. period!!! AND THE RULE IS NOT AT THE CONVENTION TO BE CHANGED IN FEBRUARY .... a bunch of women cannot sit behind closed doors and change the rules ... period!! .... unless you go by OBAMACARE RULES ...
As a breeder following the rules .. you have mares in foal, weanlings, yearlings, 2yo's and older ... and all of a sudden APHA SEZ ... starting Jan 1 these are the new rules and leaves the breeder with 3-4 years of horses that can no longer compete in APHA events .... these crazy decisions come from behind closed doors or while playing golf on a free country club membership .... as I stated before a breeder cannot take the losses on these morons changing the rules all the time ...
Look at the rules I posted in a post above that shows that crop out quarter horses// TB's are still allowed while dissing solid colored paints with one or more paint parents ... grrrrr
But yet APHA keeps events separated in their magazines ... instead of having one PAINT JOURNAL for the whole association (racing, roping, etc are on the internet) ... and they started 2 new magazines ... CHROME and FLASH and they don't even know what they are about .... APHA is financially strapped yet they can spend money on worthless projects like these... I know a guy by the name of Obama that does crap like this all the time ... lol
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 Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
I have a chestnut breeding stock paint mare. Not running bred by any means, just an old school bred working mare. Her bloodlines are mostly quarter horse, aside from the very top which has a strip of loud colored paints. In my opinion, she is a quarter horse - obviously AQHA does not agree lol. I have her bred to a nice quarter horse stallion whose colts have been selling for good prices. I know if I ever go to sell the colt, which is the last thing I plan to do, I will have to price the horse lower due to the APHA papers. But I knew that when I bred her. Paint prospects are just not worth the same amount quarter horse prospects. Point blank, AQHA is just a better association with a wider range of nicer horses. I love the way a paint looks and I sure wouldnt be against owning a colored paint one day. Not to mention I've seen a good bit of them that can light up a barrel pattern!
A little side story....I was at a barrel race and my mare (the one mentioned above) had just laid down a pretty nice 1D run. As I was cooling her off, a guy stopped me and asked me how she was bred. I told him she was a registered paint and there wasnt a single name on her papers that he would recognize. He looked pretty surprised and said "well you better not tell her that!" Gave me a good chuckle!
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Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | drivemaround - 2014-01-21 4:27 PM
ausranch - 2014-01-20 7:21 PM hotpaints - 2014-01-20 5:08 PM Guess it depends on what part of the country you are in. I have always made more money on Paints than QHs. I'll take all the big tobiano geldings..........there is such a good market for them here in the east. It's the QHs that you can't give away here.
Too bad that so many people have a "thing" against paints. I agree completely. It is very regional. For that reason, I really, really miss $1/gallon gas! ha! You absolutely cannot make a generalization about Paint pricing - because regional and discipline difference are huge. It's easy to see why QH race horses are worth more - they run for far, far more money. The APHA has, in my opinion, just not done it's job helping Paint racing in the different states. We had a lot of states get a good start . . . and just die off. I've very hopeful the new barrel incentive program will be helpful for prospect prices. That's the kind of thing we have desperately needed. About 15 years ago the Paint industry was turning out a bunch of junk with color. A few good horses were still being bred - I'd say most of them at the track but I'm biased. It will take us a very, very long time to get over the bad reputation we built for ourselves by breeding all that colored junk. In the last year or so I'm starting to hear breeders who have quit pricing their solids lower than their colored foals. These are people with good horses bred to do something for a living - that won't work with backyard pets. I think that is a very interesting concept . . . I'll be interested to see if it takes off or not. I haven't gotten there yet. From our perspective, the good Paints still sell but you have to be able to prove that you aren't one of those Paint breeders who just breeds for color. I always have a pen full of solids I can prove that with. ;- ) If you are looking for prospects to buy, train and sell, the maximum potential profit, I think, is in solid Paints. Buy the discounted prospect and sell the non-discounted finished horse.
I think alot of people would be surprised what horses are actually solid paints. If they aren't spotted you have no way to know how they are registered, unlesss you ask.
Thanks, Lady! We were so glad you got that colt - he literally hit the ground, got up and said, "Get busy and find me a great home cuz I am special!" Good thing we could do that! ;-)
In case everyone thinks I'm crazy now - this is him at one day old. See what I mean?
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Ima Fickle Fan
Posts: 3547
Location: Texas | BARRELHORSE USA - 2014-01-21 6:43 PM ausranch - 2014-01-21 5:25 PM aggiejudger - 2014-01-21 2:39 PM
I think a big factor that has influenced the breed's worth is the association itself. From my perspective, APHA has been more reactive than proactive in its decisions and leadership for the last 20 or so years. Similar to QH, APHA's registry was founded upon horses meeting certain criteria, including conformation and color. Unfortunately, when their popularity soared during the '80s, breeders were more concerned on quantity than quality. This didn't help the breed's reputation. When people got tired of buying the colorful crap, the registry's numbers took a hit. (NOT saying that all breeders did this.)
To combat lower registration numbers and in response to QH's refusal to register cropouts, APHA gave the cropouts full papers. Unfortunately, this hurt the association in the long run because it increased the likelihood of getting a solid paint. Even worse, APHA has treated the solids like red-headed stepchildren and decreased those horses' values by limiting classes and incentives for them. Then when QH took the cropouts back, APHA passes the one-paint parent rule. (Again, reactive responses rather than proactive.)
At some point, the association needs to step up and address its problems. A lot of the perception about paints' value comes from years of stigma as well as a lack of effective breed promotion. For the poster who said APHA is mainly focused on halter and pleasure, that is because those are the people who show up at the meetings and gripe the loudest.
Another problem I think is the lack of knowledge of Paint bloodlines. Much of this is due to the lack of promotion. I think the association is making attempts to remedy the situation through different incentives, but that will take time.
Finally, the sheer numbers of QHs competing vs. Paints make it much more likely from a statistical viewpoint that a QH will win a major event rather than a Paint. And that is true no matter what the discipline is.
So to the Paint breeders who are breeding quality horses, KUDOS to you. People who know Paint horses, bloodlines, etc. will pay for those quality horses. It's the people who don't know much about Paints who balk at fair prices.
Well said. You make a thoughtful and reasoned argument. Thanks. AGGIE ... you made a couple of decent points but do not realize that the APHA judges and people that run the APHA booths at shows only want to be in air conditioned arenas and will never show up at an outdoor function such as the race tracks of open arena events ... they are city slickers ... lol APHA needs to close the books and kick anything out of APHA that is double registered or does not have a paint parent .... and stop allowing paints to be bred to quarter horses or thoroughbreds ........ PAINT TO PAINT .... DNA WILL ALWAYS FIND THE "RINGERS" THAT WILL EVENTUALLY SHOW UP AT APHA SHOWS .... At the same time take all of the solid restrictions off of anything with one registered anything paint and open up all events to anything that is registered as a paint .. this will put value on the quality and superior bloodlines whether they have color or not... you could very easily call APHA ..... RACIST ... lol... It is like the rule change on the PHBIP ... it can't be legit because there are 3-4 standing rules saying solids cannot compete with colored paints .. period!!! AND THE RULE IS NOT AT THE CONVENTION TO BE CHANGED IN FEBRUARY .... a bunch of women cannot sit behind closed doors and change the rules ... period!! .... unless you go by OBAMACARE RULES ... As a breeder following the rules .. you have mares in foal, weanlings, yearlings, 2yo's and older ... and all of a sudden APHA SEZ ... starting Jan 1 these are the new rules and leaves the breeder with 3-4 years of horses that can no longer compete in APHA events .... these crazy decisions come from behind closed doors or while playing golf on a free country club membership .... as I stated before a breeder cannot take the losses on these morons changing the rules all the time ... Look at the rules I posted in a post above that shows that crop out quarter horses// TB's are still allowed while dissing solid colored paints with one or more paint parents ... grrrrr But yet APHA keeps events separated in their magazines ... instead of having one PAINT JOURNAL for the whole association (racing, roping, etc are on the internet ) ... and they started 2 new magazines ... CHROME and FLASH and they don't even know what they are about .... APHA is financially strapped yet they can spend money on worthless projects like these... I know a guy by the name of Obama that does crap like this all the time ... lol
Having worked for both QH and APHA, I do realize this. The difference in how the associations operate is unreal. APHA made me want to bang my head into the wall on a daily basis for decisions made and the lack of long-term planning that seemed to occur.
And you're right. APHA could be called racist. They readily discriminate against the solid horses. They make rules based upon the here and now...again reactive instead of proactive. Instead of looking at the overall betterment of the breed, they make decisions based upon the current state. Nothing is consistent and the rules they pass often hurt more than help the breed and its breeders.
Another example of reactive behavior is their World Show, or what used to be their World Show. To try and be more like QH, they tried to implement a qualifying system. At the same time, they also decided to split the Youth from the Open. This destroyed their World Show. It used to be a family atmosphere and had huge numbers. Now, for a family to show, it takes two trips to Fort Worth. Not only that, but to win a World Championship pays crap. An exhibitor will pay more in entry fees than they will receive in a payout. What's the point? At the end of the day, people aren't competing for a ribbon. They want bragging rights and monetary incentives.
Many of the decisions the association has made over the years has negatively impacted the breed, which ultimately affects the horses' value.
When I left APHA as an employee, it was because of how toxic the association was. To me, APHA has lost its vision and focus, both of which negatively impacts the breed and the people involved. | |
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Duct Tape Bikini Girl
Posts: 2554
| I have finally learned it is easier to sell a pretty horse that can't do anything than an ugly horse that can do everything. Not all Paints are pretty though.
When I buy a QH or Paint I ask myself if the horse will sell if things don't work out. I avoid horses with blue eyes and/or pink skin around the eyes. I try to make sure there is at least as much dark hair as white hair on the face. Sunburn and eye damage possibilities are things people don't want to deal with.
No matter which breed you buy, color sells! | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1631
Location: Somewhere around here | I've owned two paint barrel horses before and they definitely had a personality they're color didn't deter me from buying them. When I moved to Southern CO though it was a whole different world. No one, and I mean NO ONE, would even look at a Paint. I don't know why that is but maybe people are just brought up that way? | |
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Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | aggiejudger - 2014-01-22 8:32 AM
BARRELHORSE USA - 2014-01-21 6:43 PM ausranch - 2014-01-21 5:25 PM aggiejudger - 2014-01-21 2:39 PM
I think a big factor that has influenced the breed's worth is the association itself. From my perspective, APHA has been more reactive than proactive in its decisions and leadership for the last 20 or so years. Similar to QH, APHA's registry was founded upon horses meeting certain criteria, including conformation and color. Unfortunately, when their popularity soared during the '80s, breeders were more concerned on quantity than quality. This didn't help the breed's reputation. When people got tired of buying the colorful crap, the registry's numbers took a hit. (NOT saying that all breeders did this.)
To combat lower registration numbers and in response to QH's refusal to register cropouts, APHA gave the cropouts full papers. Unfortunately, this hurt the association in the long run because it increased the likelihood of getting a solid paint. Even worse, APHA has treated the solids like red-headed stepchildren and decreased those horses' values by limiting classes and incentives for them. Then when QH took the cropouts back, APHA passes the one-paint parent rule. (Again, reactive responses rather than proactive.)
At some point, the association needs to step up and address its problems. A lot of the perception about paints' value comes from years of stigma as well as a lack of effective breed promotion. For the poster who said APHA is mainly focused on halter and pleasure, that is because those are the people who show up at the meetings and gripe the loudest.
Another problem I think is the lack of knowledge of Paint bloodlines. Much of this is due to the lack of promotion. I think the association is making attempts to remedy the situation through different incentives, but that will take time.
Finally, the sheer numbers of QHs competing vs. Paints make it much more likely from a statistical viewpoint that a QH will win a major event rather than a Paint. And that is true no matter what the discipline is.
So to the Paint breeders who are breeding quality horses, KUDOS to you. People who know Paint horses, bloodlines, etc. will pay for those quality horses. It's the people who don't know much about Paints who balk at fair prices.
Well said. You make a thoughtful and reasoned argument. Thanks. AGGIE ... you made a couple of decent points but do not realize that the APHA judges and people that run the APHA booths at shows only want to be in air conditioned arenas and will never show up at an outdoor function such as the race tracks of open arena events ... they are city slickers ... lol APHA needs to close the books and kick anything out of APHA that is double registered or does not have a paint parent .... and stop allowing paints to be bred to quarter horses or thoroughbreds ........ PAINT TO PAINT .... DNA WILL ALWAYS FIND THE "RINGERS" THAT WILL EVENTUALLY SHOW UP AT APHA SHOWS .... At the same time take all of the solid restrictions off of anything with one registered anything paint and open up all events to anything that is registered as a paint .. this will put value on the quality and superior bloodlines whether they have color or not... you could very easily call APHA ..... RACIST ... lol... It is like the rule change on the PHBIP ... it can't be legit because there are 3-4 standing rules saying solids cannot compete with colored paints .. period!!! AND THE RULE IS NOT AT THE CONVENTION TO BE CHANGED IN FEBRUARY .... a bunch of women cannot sit behind closed doors and change the rules ... period!! .... unless you go by OBAMACARE RULES ... As a breeder following the rules .. you have mares in foal, weanlings, yearlings, 2yo's and older ... and all of a sudden APHA SEZ ... starting Jan 1 these are the new rules and leaves the breeder with 3-4 years of horses that can no longer compete in APHA events .... these crazy decisions come from behind closed doors or while playing golf on a free country club membership .... as I stated before a breeder cannot take the losses on these morons changing the rules all the time ... Look at the rules I posted in a post above that shows that crop out quarter horses// TB's are still allowed while dissing solid colored paints with one or more paint parents ... grrrrr But yet APHA keeps events separated in their magazines ... instead of having one PAINT JOURNAL for the whole association (racing, roping, etc are on the internet ) ... and they started 2 new magazines ... CHROME and FLASH and they don't even know what they are about .... APHA is financially strapped yet they can spend money on worthless projects like these... I know a guy by the name of Obama that does crap like this all the time ... lol
And you're right. APHA could be called racist. They readily discriminate against the solid horses. They make rules based upon the here and now...again reactive instead of proactive. Instead of looking at the overall betterment of the breed, they make decisions based upon the current state. Nothing is consistent and the rules they pass often hurt more than help the breed and its breeders.
Another example of reactive behavior is their World Show, or what used to be their World Show. To try and be more like QH, they tried to implement a qualifying system. At the same time, they also decided to split the Youth from the Open. This destroyed their World Show. It used to be a family atmosphere and had huge numbers. Now, for a family to show, it takes two trips to Fort Worth. Not only that, but to win a World Championship pays crap. An exhibitor will pay more in entry fees than they will receive in a payout. What's the point? At the end of the day, people aren't competing for a ribbon. They want bragging rights and monetary incentives.
Many of the decisions the association has made over the years has negatively impacted the breed, which ultimately affects the horses' value.
When I left APHA as an employee, it was because of how toxic the association was. To me, APHA has lost its vision and focus, both of which negatively impacts the breed and the people involved.
Again - very well said. Appreciate your insider's perspective. What year did you leave, if you don't mind my asking.
And Barrelhorse USA - I sure have to agree about the silly Chrome magazine. I don't know too many women who wear off the shoulder furs to the barn . . . and if there are women like that out there . . . they aren't going to buy my horses anyway. I mentioned on Chrome's FB page that some breeders were concerned about this and was told that breeders are 8% of the APHA membership and that Chrome was attracting such great advertisers that it would make money for the association. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 392
Location: CA | ausranch - 2014-01-21 7:38 PM drivemaround - 2014-01-21 4:27 PM ausranch - 2014-01-20 7:21 PM hotpaints - 2014-01-20 5:08 PM Guess it depends on what part of the country you are in. I have always made more money on Paints than QHs. I'll take all the big tobiano geldings..........there is such a good market for them here in the east. It's the QHs that you can't give away here.
Too bad that so many people have a "thing" against paints. I agree completely. It is very regional. For that reason, I really, really miss $1/gallon gas! ha! You absolutely cannot make a generalization about Paint pricing - because regional and discipline difference are huge. It's easy to see why QH race horses are worth more - they run for far, far more money. The APHA has, in my opinion, just not done it's job helping Paint racing in the different states. We had a lot of states get a good start . . . and just die off. I've very hopeful the new barrel incentive program will be helpful for prospect prices. That's the kind of thing we have desperately needed. About 15 years ago the Paint industry was turning out a bunch of junk with color. A few good horses were still being bred - I'd say most of them at the track but I'm biased. It will take us a very, very long time to get over the bad reputation we built for ourselves by breeding all that colored junk. In the last year or so I'm starting to hear breeders who have quit pricing their solids lower than their colored foals. These are people with good horses bred to do something for a living - that won't work with backyard pets. I think that is a very interesting concept . . . I'll be interested to see if it takes off or not. I haven't gotten there yet. From our perspective, the good Paints still sell but you have to be able to prove that you aren't one of those Paint breeders who just breeds for color. I always have a pen full of solids I can prove that with. ;- ) If you are looking for prospects to buy, train and sell, the maximum potential profit, I think, is in solid Paints. Buy the discounted prospect and sell the non-discounted finished horse.
I think alot of people would be surprised what horses are actually solid paints. If they aren't spotted you have no way to know how they are registered, unlesss you ask. Thanks, Lady! We were so glad you got that colt - he literally hit the ground, got up and said, "Get busy and find me a great home cuz I am special!" Good thing we could do that! ;- ) In case everyone thinks I'm crazy now - this is him at one day old. See what I mean?
That is my boy! LOL hopefully now I can ride him properly! | |
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Veteran
Posts: 102
| Practically every person on here can name at least half of the horses that ran at the NFR this year. Name 10 paints that are known on that level that have ran in the last 10 years. I think that is the answer to the original question. | |
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 Life Saver
Posts: 10477
Location: MT | Can you tell which one of these two is a paint and which is qh? Nope...might get a lucky guess but that's about it.
I think people really narrow their options a whole lot when purchasing a horse, for lots of different reasons.
We've got two solid paints at our place and both of them were priced right up there comparable to a qh of the same caliber. But a person can definately find a bargain, especially when looking at a solid paint!
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