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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
  
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I just read a statement by the the President, commemorating this 41st anniversary:
"Today, as we reflect on the 41st anniversary of the Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade, we recommit ourselves to the decision’s guiding principle: that every woman should be able to make her own choices about her body and her health. We reaffirm our steadfast commitment to protecting a woman’s access to safe, affordable health care and her constitutional right to privacy, including the right to reproductive freedom. And we resolve to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies, support maternal and child health, and continue to build safe and healthy communities for all our children. Because this is a country where everyone deserves the same freedom and opportunities to fulfill their dreams."
I'm curious, Barack......what about the 55 million souls who have been exterminated since Rowe v Wade? They had NO opportunity to fulfill their dreams. What about them? Nevermind.......they can't vote, so they don't matter.
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 Forever Young
Posts: 6768
 
Location: relocated to Texas | Agree. This is the lingo that they use to sell abortion to women. They don't talk about the number of babies who are murdered, or the number of women who live with regret and remorse for making the decision to eliminate their child. I see your post received some dislikes, but I wonder if those same people would rally behind the idea of aborting an unborn foal? Man is suppose to be a superior species, yet those in the animal kingdom take better care of their babies than many people do. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I think it's a very hard pill to swallow when you have a statistic like 55 million babies that were robbed of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". If someone dislikes my remarks, I won't take it personal. In fact, I pity them because they probably carry a lot of guilt with them. I has to be very hard.
My oldest child came close to being one of those 55 million. If she were one of those dead babies, I am sure I would "dislike" myself. | |
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Location: las vegas nv | Lets just take the political lingo out ,you are either Pro Life or Pro Death. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1304
| I hate to get into this politic crap but this abortion stuff is difficult...I don't believe in it and I've went over the exceptions in my mind such as if you have a health problem or you've been raped..but I still think a life is a life. If it's a matter of life and death, I can see where it'd be necessary. If you're raped, I could see where it's necessary too but I also think that that baby didn't ask to be a product of rape and adoption would be the best alternative. I'm worried that if abortion was so legal with little regulation, that many will take advantage of it. The problem is is how can we regulate it and decide on who needs it and who doesn't? I think that if you lay down and decide to have sex, no matter how much protection you use, it's not always 100% and you should still have to be ready to deal with the consequences. I'm afraid that abortion could the be an easy way out if it becomes so available. The only thing that sucks is when people decide to do it themselves at home or ruin the kid's lives if they are made to keep it. Adoption is the best alternative in my opinion. I'm torn but I think that in regular situations (not health or rape related), be responsible and either don't have sex or just come to terms that you could very well have a baby. Your choice. Anyways, dislike the hell out of it if you want but that's my opinion and we all have em. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 253
Location: EDGE OF INSANITY | Abortion (and our president) makes me sick. I can not fathom killing your own child. Due to complications my second child was brought into this world 2 months early via emergency c-section. The time he spent in the hospital after that was one of the most difficult times of my life. On one hand i was glad that the issue was found (or else he would have been a stillborn) but i can tell you leaving your child in the NICU everyday to go take care of your other kids is an AWFUL feeling that i would never wish on anyone. From the time my oldest got on the school bus til the time he got off, i was at the hospital with my little on, doing nothing but staring at him (we couldn't hold him for a couple of weeks) i can not imagine wanting to hurt a sweet baby on purpose. On the other hand though, i do wonder what kind of life those children would have had living with a mother who has no problem killing an innocent life-i've seen women who treat their kids real sh!tty, and i've seen the outcome - good and bad of these kids | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | He ended his remarks regarding Rowe V Wade with this:
"Because this is a country where everyone deserves the same freedom and opportunities to fulfill their dreams."
That's what really stuck in my craw. His remarks on the anniversary of the SCOTUS decision which paved the way to the legal termination of 55 million innocent lives, ended with that comment where EVERYONE deserves the same freedom and opportunities to fulfill their dreams.....and I instantly thought, "yeah, right, everyone except the most innocent babies!" World War II cost about the same number of lives, and that was across the globe. Oh I am sure Obama is not alone in his sentiments. Satan must be gloating as well. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Regardless of how people 'feel' about it, this should NOT be a political issue. Keep the government out of it. There are many compelling & thought provoking arguments for both sides and ultimately it is a choice & should be kept that way...stop trying to legislate morality! All that happens is we lose all our rights!
We lose our voice on matters where we really could make a difference.
The religious right will never win at this rate.
The day will come when the rate of abortion wanes....and it won't be because it's illegal. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 5:54 PM Regardless of how people 'feel' about it, this should NOT be a political issue. Keep the government out of it. There are many compelling & thought provoking arguments for both sides and ultimately it is a choice & should be kept that way...stop trying to legislate morality! All that happens is we lose all our rights!
We lose our voice on matters where we really could make a difference.
The religious right will never win at this rate.
The day will come when the rate of abortion wanes....and it won't be because it's illegal.
You are exactly right MM! "Abortion rights" has been a political tool for decades now. In recent years it morphed into a more euphemistic term: "reproductive rights" and it was a vital component in the "War on women" mantra. Obama used this solemn anniversary to make his remarks, under the guise of "freedom". I don't think it can be legislated either. I see the support for abortion on the wane......partly because of discussions like this. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 5:03 PM musikmaker - 2014-01-22 5:54 PM Regardless of how people 'feel' about it, this should NOT be a political issue. Keep the government out of it. There are many compelling & thought provoking arguments for both sides and ultimately it is a choice & should be kept that way...stop trying to legislate morality! All that happens is we lose all our rights!
We lose our voice on matters where we really could make a difference.
The religious right will never win at this rate.
The day will come when the rate of abortion wanes....and it won't be because it's illegal. You are exactly right MM! "Abortion rights" has been a political tool for decades now. In recent years it morphed into a more euphemistic term: "reproductive rights" and it was a vital component in the "War on women" mantra. Obama used this solemn anniversary to make his remarks, under the guise of "freedom". I don't think it can be legislated either. I see the support for abortion on the wane......partly because of discussions like this.
Trouble is...we need men like Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, Rand Paul...yet, they shoot themselves in the foot by even speaking of abortion. They desperately need to remove themselves from the issue. THEN and ONLY then, will they have a chance at helping to make our country great again.
We need them...we do not need this debate. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| Whats your definition abortrion?
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 Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | Very good friend of our family has a child with CMD. This child is 4 years old and severely handicapped. She is on a barrage of med's and when she is not medicated to the point of being somnolent she is fussy, has major muscle spasms, has no idea what is happening around her and is fed thru a feeding tube. She only sleeps when she is over medicated. Her life expediency is 6-10 years. This is her life. The mom wishes she would have done something different as they knew the child had this prior to birth. I had no suggestions for her, only prayers. But seeing her and knowing what the child and family are going thru, I tend to agree. Flame away. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1304
| Thank you for giving me a different perspective on things...kinda slipped my mind. I'm not bein sarcastic either. Makes it very very difficult.. | |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| After trying a horse at the Still Creek Ranch facility, I became a bi-yearly contributor to their equine program. I saw the oodles and oodles of little kids that didn't have anywhere to go. A good many of them had some sort of health problem, usually because of mothers that used drugs during pregnancy. Even though it hurts my heart, I just don't think that abortion should be outlawed. We put our animals down when their "quality of life" because of pain or mental suffering becomes what we deem "too much'. Why should doing the same for our fellow man that cannot think for themselves that we bear a direct responsibility for be any different?
In a perfect world, all healthy babies would be born, loved, kept, adopted, fed well, treated well, cherished, educated, and given the down payment on their first home. In a perfect world, women wouldn't be irresponsible, men wouldn't be idiots, and every baby would be welcomed into this world.
It is not a perfect world. Horrible things happen. If we illegalize abortion, women will be using (and dying horrible deaths) using coat hangers, lutalyse, and a good many other horrible ideas. Abortion dates back thousands of years, WAY before Christianity. I'm sorry, I'm not willing to trade my sisters, aunts, mothers, and friends because they don't want to be pregnant. An abortion is between a woman and herself. It's not between a woman and the media. It's not between a woman and President Obama. It's not between a woman and you. It's not between a woman and me. I think it's an absolute shame that something so incredibly private and shattering is even publicized by someone as loud and crude as a politician. That is the true shame. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | justcruzin - 2014-01-22 6:23 PM Very good friend of our family has a child with CMD. This child is 4 years old and severely handicapped. She is on a barrage of med's and when she is not medicated to the point of being somnolent she is fussy, has major muscle spasms, has no idea what is happening around her and is fed thru a feeding tube. She only sleeps when she is over medicated. Her life expediency is 6-10 years. This is her life. The mom wishes she would have done something different as they knew the child had this prior to birth. I had no suggestions for her, only prayers. But seeing her and knowing what the child and family are going thru, I tend to agree. Flame away.
Here's the problem as I see it. You, me, and many others know of tragic instances like this. We all know of families where, in retrospect, there is second guessing. There are instances like this practically everyone knows about. I'm not going to sit here in judgement of people who decide upon abortion when they know they have a baby with a fatal condition or a very severe physical or mental disability which is almost as bad. What I find most disturbing is instances where abortion is preferable simply because the pregnant mother simply does not want another child. That, I submit, comprises the overwhelming majority of abortions. Reasons vary from depression, to financial burden, to simple inconvenience. I also think that a lot of women who opt for abortion don't really fully understand what that entails, nor do they expect the phycological burden that follows an abortion. Also, they often times don't realize the extent to which a fetus has developed at the time they choose to terminate it's life....and that is precisely what it is....termnating a life. If we are all operating on the premise that abortion can't be abolished completely via legislation, then we are talking about an effort to promote alternatives to abortion and an effort to promote the rewards of selflessly allowing the baby to be born so that he/she can go through life and pursue his/her dreams and goals and achieve happiness. Apart from instances of severe birth defects, etc..., it is hard for me to imagine that an abortion is a lifelong, richly rewarding experience. On the other hand, to allow an unwanted life to live has immense potential to be very rewarding. If you talk to mothers who had an unwanted child and gave it up, you seldom hear them say they wish they would have had an abortion. Improvements in ultrasound technology has led to people's increasing awareness that this is, indeed, a real life they are choosing to terminate. Public opinion on this, in fact, does seem to be swaying in opposition to abortion, when only a few years ago, the country was split 50:50.
I also make a distinction between those of us who feel that abortion, while abhorrent, nonetheless ought to be an individual's choice. These people are "pro-choice". There is another segment in our society that is so militant on this issue that they actually seem to celebrate a woman's choice to have life terminated. They aren't "pro-choice", in my opinion. They are "pro-abortion". There's a huge difference. We can talk about the personal anecdotes and exceptions, however, In the end, we have 55 million lives terminated. A very small minority of those are for legitimate medical reasons. Most are simply exerminated for reasons of convenience. I'm glad I don't have to carry that burden of guilt for the rest of my life.
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Veteran
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Location: EDGE OF INSANITY | i sure would like to know why my comment piffed two people off? most of my post was about my baby in the nicu, huh? | |
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 Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-21 8:53 PM justcruzin - 2014-01-22 6:23 PM Very good friend of our family has a child with CMD. This child is 4 years old and severely handicapped. She is on a barrage of med's and when she is not medicated to the point of being somnolent she is fussy, has major muscle spasms, has no idea what is happening around her and is fed thru a feeding tube. She only sleeps when she is over medicated. Her life expediency is 6-10 years. This is her life. The mom wishes she would have done something different as they knew the child had this prior to birth. I had no suggestions for her, only prayers. But seeing her and knowing what the child and family are going thru, I tend to agree. Flame away. Here's the problem as I see it. You, me, and many others know of tragic instances like this. We all know of families where, in retrospect, there is second guessing. There are instances like this practically everyone knows about. I'm not going to sit here in judgement of people who decide upon abortion when they know they have a baby with a fatal condition or a very severe physical or mental disability which is almost as bad. What I find most disturbing is instances where abortion is preferable simply because the pregnant mother simply does not want another child. That, I submit, comprises the overwhelming majority of abortions. Reasons vary from depression, to financial burden, to simple inconvenience. I also think that a lot of women who opt for abortion don't really fully understand what that entails, nor do they expect the phycological burden that follows an abortion. Also, they often times don't realize the extent to which a fetus has developed at the time they choose to terminate it's life....and that is precisely what it is....termnating a life. If we are all operating on the premise that abortion can't be abolished completely via legislation, then we are talking about an effort to promote alternatives to abortion and an effort to promote the rewards of selflessly allowing the baby to be born so that he/she can go through life and pursue his/her dreams and goals and achieve happiness. Apart from instances of severe birth defects, etc..., it is hard for me to imagine that an abortion is a lifelong, richly rewarding experience. On the other hand, to allow an unwanted life to live has immense potential to be very rewarding. If you talk to mothers who had an unwanted child and gave it up, you seldom hear them say they wish they would have had an abortion. Improvements in ultrasound technology has led to people's increasing awareness that this is, indeed, a real life they are choosing to terminate. Public opinion on this, in fact, does seem to be swaying in opposition to abortion, when only a few years ago, the country was split 50:50.
I also make a distinction between those of us who feel that abortion, while abhorrent, nonetheless ought to be an individual's choice. These people are "pro-choice". There is another segment in our society that is so militant on this issue that they actually seem to celebrate a woman's choice to have life terminated. They aren't "pro-choice", in my opinion. They are "pro-abortion". There's a huge difference. We can talk about the personal anecdotes and exceptions, however, In the end, we have 55 million lives terminated. A very small minority of those are for legitimate medical reasons. Most are simply exerminated for reasons of convenience. I'm glad I don't have to carry that burden of guilt for the rest of my life.
So true.......... | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@%&# stirrer and Saint | Obama is a Selfish Son - of - a - *****! He is all about the me syndrome. | |
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BHW's Lance Armstrong
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@%&# stirrer and Saint | Hey without abortion we wouldn't have Los Alamitos Race Track! Sorry to say! | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | The older I get the more pro life I become. When I was in high school, I remember being made felt that if you were pro life you were backward or behind the times, and that in order to pro women's rights you should be pro choice. I remember the thought process of many girls in school that there wasn't much to worry about because you could just "get it taken care of"…Where I went to college, oh dear it was the same way…at least in the Biology department where I had most of my friends. At the college I went to, they had a display case of fetuses throughout all stages of pregnancy, showing the different stages of development. I guess for curiosity's sake one day I asked my friend and his girlfriend, when we were looking at the display, when they thought life began. They both were convinced up and down that the fetus was not alive until it was born to term, and that it was only a parasite off the mother because if you left it to it's own, it would die. I was speechless.. I guess in my mind I was expecting them to say "when they have a heart beat" or something. With the logic they had, we are all parasite for the first several years of life or more!
Anyway, the older I get, the more I lean toward being pro life. A friend of mine told me, people think you aren't pro women's rights if you are against abortions, but really you are for the rights of those who don't have a voice of their own. I personally believe life begins at conception. I'm taking embryology right now and it's amazing how fast cells start dividing and organs start forming. That heart is forming before a lot of people know they are pregnant. So I am looking at it on a scientific and emotional standpoint… I feel there is a place for abortions given circumstances of health, rape, incest, etc… but I hate how some people take advantage of it. I also wouldn't like the government telling me I couldn't do something. I am conflicted. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | horsepoor1 - 2014-01-22 7:56 PM i sure would like to know why my comment piffed two people off? most of my post was about my baby in the nicu, huh?
It's nothing about you, per se'. You can't take those dislikes personally, especially on an issue like abortion. In debates like this, the more you present a cogent, clear opinion and state your reasons why, the more you get "dislikes".....however, those who "dislike" you are probably incapable of presenting a sensible counterpoint....so they take a more meek, anonymous approach....hit "dislike".
Like I said, public opinion seems to be changing on this issue, and that makes pro abortionists a little spastic. The good news is that there are signs that abortion will quite possibly become less commonplace, once people are educated and are allowed to consider alternatives where there may be some lasting deep rewards for making a sacrifice that enables another human being to live. | |
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Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| I think part of the reason that pro choice folks end up getting spastic is because so many people resort to pulling the religion card. Many pro choicers are not deeply religious, as that's against all teachings from really any kind of Christian church. It's hard to argue with faith, and it can be infuriating to be told, "Because you'll go to hell.", without some type of good solid moral argument using modern ideas and tools.
Hotbear, you're one of the only people I know that is truly down to earth in your argument against abortion. I am so proud of you and respect you for doing your wife and daughter so proudly in their lives. I know that many abortions are done because the female doesn't know how she can continue without support of the father, and the father truly is MIA. Kudos to you and your past, you did the right thing. Kudos to your wife, because she chose to lean on you and have faith in you, and many of us wouldn't trust a man as far as we could throw him when it comes to something so important.
This is such a terribly private topic that has been used as a public witchburning topic for centuries, not just in modern culture. I think it is terribly sad that in our world there are not more hoops to jump through to actually obtain an abortion, such as counseling and offers of help and support. I think that with a better support network and education force to help give scared women options, you'd see less dirty deeds.
I just get so angry at both sides for being so very obtuse and not trying to make room for situational issues. Abortion is incredibly personal, and must truly be terrifying, painful, and demeaning. It's a hard thing, and should be dealt with within the private sector. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | casualdust07 - 2014-01-22 7:35 PM The older I get the more pro life I become. When I was in high school, I remember being made felt that if you were pro life you were backward or behind the times, and that in order to pro women's rights you should be pro choice. I remember the thought process of many girls in school that there wasn't much to worry about because you could just "get it taken care of"…Where I went to college, oh dear it was the same way…at least in the Biology department where I had most of my friends. At the college I went to, they had a display case of fetuses throughout all stages of pregnancy, showing the different stages of development. I guess for curiosity's sake one day I asked my friend and his girlfriend, when we were looking at the display, when they thought life began. They both were convinced up and down that the fetus was not alive until it was born to term, and that it was only a parasite off the mother because if you left it to it's own, it would die. I was speechless.. I guess in my mind I was expecting them to say "when they have a heart beat" or something. With the logic they had, we are all parasite for the first several years of life or more! Anyway, the older I get, the more I lean toward being pro life. A friend of mine told me, people think you aren't pro women's rights if you are against abortions, but really you are for the rights of those who don't have a voice of their own. I personally believe life begins at conception. I'm taking embryology right now and it's amazing how fast cells start dividing and organs start forming. That heart is forming before a lot of people know they are pregnant. So I am looking at it on a scientific and emotional standpoint… I feel there is a place for abortions given circumstances of health, rape, incest, etc… but I hate how some people take advantage of it. I also wouldn't like the government telling me I couldn't do something. I am conflicted.
I think a lot of people are 'conflicted' on this issue...part of it must be the entire 'when does life begin?'. A heartbeat you say? How about that 12 year old girl who is being kept alive even though she's brain dead? Or the lady who is pregnant...same thing? They are not 'alive'...even though modern technology is keeping their hearts beating.
Look up the word 'conceive'. it's an idea, a possibility...not an absolute.
If we want to delve into the 'God has a plan & knows everything before we do...' concept then why would He set a woman up this way knowing she would abort before she knew it? Wouldn't that make him partly responsible?
There are no easy answers & I truly believe that we are just on a journey...one that will hopefully make us more aware, appreciative and responsible...to & for our 'possibilities'...how we 'conceive' ourselves. Morally. Honestly. Humanely.
Murder? Are we more powerful than we think? Are we in control of lives besides our own? Are we God? Can we destroy what He creates? I don't think so, myself. Therefore, I must say it is not a life until it takes the Breath of Life...the soul who has chosen that body, that journey, then enters the body.
I sincerely hope that this 'issue' becomes a 'non-issue' at some point...and I think it will, but, not through legislation...through having the choice...and choosing decency...from the beginning of the possibilities. | |
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 Got to have my Pepsi
Posts: 6252
Location: Baden, PA | Like you said Scott, the extremely small majority of abortions are because of medical reasons. The vast majority of them are nothing more than a matter of convience. It's nothing more than an easy way out of responsibility for that vast majority. Hate to say it but it's true. The way I see it is like this. We now live in a country where there is a HUGE line of folks that have been waiting for a baby to adopt, yet we are aborting them left and right. Whats wrong with this picture?
Edited by VonDigger 2014-01-22 9:37 PM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | We are killing children and even the pro lifers know this. You don't have to look any farther than in most states if you harm an unborn baby that the mother wants you will face legal charges. We perform life saving surgeries on unborns while aborting others. We are killing babies and everyone knows it. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | VonDigger - 2014-01-22 8:31 PM Like you said Scott, the extremely small majority of abortions are because of medical reasons. The vast majority of them are nothing more than a matter of convience. It's nothing more than an easy way out of responsibility for that vast majority. Hate to say it but it's true. The way I see it is like this. We now live in a country where there is a HUGE line of folks that have been waiting for a baby to adopt, yet we are aborting them left and right. Whats wrong with this picture?
What is wrong with this picture is that NOBODY OWES a baby to anyone. Period. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Ever since the inception of abortion , there has been debate over what constitutes "life", the definition of life, when life begins, and even when it ends. The debate continues and it continues to be modified. People don't decide whether or not to have an abortion based on the prevailing definition of the day. They do it either because something is wrong with the baby (or perhaps the mom), rape, incest, or because it's more expedient and convenient. Far and away, it's because it's an easy solution, more convenient, etc... - but not because of some definition. I like to look at the big picture and the undeniable truths as I see them, painful to some though they may be. Tens of millions of babies have been exterminated for no good reason and if things were allowed to proceed naturally, they would be able to experience the joys of living that the rest of us have been blessed with. That just can't be denied. It hits a nerve with many, but those who are offended have a hard time coming up with a legitimate counter point. We humans tend to be awfully self centered and self serving at times. I have my own personal experiences and anecdotes too. One is my beautiful oldest daughter who was nearly scraped out and flushed down the drain. Another is a set of beautiful twins who I have recently had the sheer joy of seeing on FB. Their mother was pregnant out of wedlock and approached me about how/where to have an abortion. After an hour or two with me in my office, she changed her mind and has these beautiful kids to show for it. She recently found me on FB and asked to be "friends" so she could show me pictures. If I hadn't felt the way I did about abortion, those babies would not be alive. Not only that, but she and the father were later married, so that was a bonus. It's hard to go wrong when you are on the side of "life" and those examples are proof. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | CrossDRanch - 2014-01-22 8:39 PM We are killing children and even the pro lifers know this. You don't have to look any farther than in most states if you harm an unborn baby that the mother wants you will face legal charges. We perform life saving surgeries on unborns while aborting others. We are killing babies and everyone knows it.
I disgree completely...we are not 'killing babies'...we're just not 'following through' with an idea. A possibility of a life.
We must stop the emotional bs.
We must get back on track politically, this issue is nothing more than a diversion that will further ruin our once great nation.
Let God sort it out...if there is a God this doesn't matter much, if there isn't...it means even less. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 9:00 PM Ever since the inception of abortion , there has been debate over what constitutes "life", the definition of life, when life begins, and even when it ends. The debate continues and it continues to be modified. People don't decide whether or not to have an abortion based on the prevailing definition of the day. They do it either because something is wrong with the baby (or perhaps the mom), rape, incest, or because it's more expedient and convenient. Far and away, it's because it's an easy solution, more convenient, etc... - but not because of some definition. I like to look at the big picture and the undeniable truths as I see them, painful to some though they may be. Tens of millions of babies have been exterminated for no good reason and if things were allowed to proceed naturally, they would be able to experience the joys of living that the rest of us have been blessed with. That just can't be denied. It hits a nerve with many, but those who are offended have a hard time coming up with a legitimate counter point. We humans tend to be awfully self centered and self serving at times. I have my own personal experiences and anecdotes too. One is my beautiful oldest daughter who was nearly scraped out and flushed down the drain. Another is a set of beautiful twins who I have recently had the sheer joy of seeing on FB. Their mother was pregnant out of wedlock and approached me about how/where to have an abortion. After an hour or two with me in my office, she changed her mind and has these beautiful kids to show for it. She recently found me on FB and asked to be "friends" so she could show me pictures. If I hadn't felt the way I did about abortion, those babies would not be alive. Not only that, but she and the father were later married, so that was a bonus. It's hard to go wrong when you are on the side of "life" and those examples are proof.
Abortion was obviously not ever a real option in these examples. We are not God.
I just wish we could forgoe this discussion and encourage the only men & women out there who could save our country & this world to drop it, too. Otherwise...we're done for...all of us living breathing humans who survived the womb to be be born into this emotional mess...let's save the survivors. The rest will work out... | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 10:11 PM HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 9:00 PM Ever since the inception of abortion , there has been debate over what constitutes "life", the definition of life, when life begins, and even when it ends. The debate continues and it continues to be modified. People don't decide whether or not to have an abortion based on the prevailing definition of the day. They do it either because something is wrong with the baby (or perhaps the mom), rape, incest, or because it's more expedient and convenient. Far and away, it's because it's an easy solution, more convenient, etc... - but not because of some definition. I like to look at the big picture and the undeniable truths as I see them, painful to some though they may be. Tens of millions of babies have been exterminated for no good reason and if things were allowed to proceed naturally, they would be able to experience the joys of living that the rest of us have been blessed with. That just can't be denied. It hits a nerve with many, but those who are offended have a hard time coming up with a legitimate counter point. We humans tend to be awfully self centered and self serving at times. I have my own personal experiences and anecdotes too. One is my beautiful oldest daughter who was nearly scraped out and flushed down the drain. Another is a set of beautiful twins who I have recently had the sheer joy of seeing on FB. Their mother was pregnant out of wedlock and approached me about how/where to have an abortion. After an hour or two with me in my office, she changed her mind and has these beautiful kids to show for it. She recently found me on FB and asked to be "friends" so she could show me pictures. If I hadn't felt the way I did about abortion, those babies would not be alive. Not only that, but she and the father were later married, so that was a bonus. It's hard to go wrong when you are on the side of "life" and those examples are proof. Abortion was obviously not ever a real option in these examples. We are not God.
I just wish we could forgoe this discussion and encourage the only men & women out there who could save our country & this world to drop it, too. Otherwise...we're done for...all of us living breathing humans who survived the womb to be be born into this emotional mess...let's save the survivors. The rest will work out...
How do you figure? I'm not following you. Of course it's an option. It's always an option. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Suppose you have a premie born at 22 weeks gestation and it weighs 700 grams. Suppose that baby is immediately placed on a respirator and an IV started. Suppose someone comes along and shuts off the ventilator and the baby dies. Is that murder? | |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 9:29 PM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-22 7:35 PM The older I get the more pro life I become. When I was in high school, I remember being made felt that if you were pro life you were backward or behind the times, and that in order to pro women's rights you should be pro choice. I remember the thought process of many girls in school that there wasn't much to worry about because you could just "get it taken care of"…Where I went to college, oh dear it was the same way…at least in the Biology department where I had most of my friends. At the college I went to, they had a display case of fetuses throughout all stages of pregnancy, showing the different stages of development. I guess for curiosity's sake one day I asked my friend and his girlfriend, when we were looking at the display, when they thought life began. They both were convinced up and down that the fetus was not alive until it was born to term, and that it was only a parasite off the mother because if you left it to it's own, it would die. I was speechless.. I guess in my mind I was expecting them to say "when they have a heart beat" or something. With the logic they had, we are all parasite for the first several years of life or more! Anyway, the older I get, the more I lean toward being pro life. A friend of mine told me, people think you aren't pro women's rights if you are against abortions, but really you are for the rights of those who don't have a voice of their own. I personally believe life begins at conception. I'm taking embryology right now and it's amazing how fast cells start dividing and organs start forming. That heart is forming before a lot of people know they are pregnant. So I am looking at it on a scientific and emotional standpoint… I feel there is a place for abortions given circumstances of health, rape, incest, etc… but I hate how some people take advantage of it. I also wouldn't like the government telling me I couldn't do something. I am conflicted.
I think a lot of people are 'conflicted' on this issue...part of it must be the entire 'when does life begin?'. A heartbeat you say? How about that 12 year old girl who is being kept alive even though she's brain dead? Or the lady who is pregnant...same thing? They are not 'alive'...even though modern technology is keeping their hearts beating.
Look up the word 'conceive'. it's an idea, a possibility...not an absolute.
If we want to delve into the 'God has a plan & knows everything before we do...' concept then why would He set a woman up this way knowing she would abort before she knew it? Wouldn't that make him partly responsible?
There are no easy answers & I truly believe that we are just on a journey...one that will hopefully make us more aware, appreciative and responsible...to & for our 'possibilities'...how we 'conceive' ourselves. Morally. Honestly. Humanely.
Murder? Are we more powerful than we think? Are we in control of lives besides our own? Are we God? Can we destroy what He creates? I don't think so, myself. Therefore, I must say it is not a life until it takes the Breath of Life...the soul who has chosen that body, that journey, then enters the body.
I sincerely hope that this 'issue' becomes a 'non-issue' at some point...and I think it will, but, not through legislation...through having the choice...and choosing decency...from the beginning of the possibilities.
I have to disagree there. People have late term fetal demises- the fetus dies in utero and depending on the stage of pregnancy they have to deliver it. In order for something to die, it was once living. They kick and have hiccups and roll around- how is that not life? | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 10:03 PM CrossDRanch - 2014-01-22 8:39 PM We are killing children and even the pro lifers know this. You don't have to look any farther than in most states if you harm an unborn baby that the mother wants you will face legal charges. We perform life saving surgeries on unborns while aborting others. We are killing babies and everyone knows it. I disgree completely...we are not 'killing babies'...we're just not 'following through' with an idea. A possibility of a life.
We must stop the emotional bs.
We must get back on track politically, this issue is nothing more than a diversion that will further ruin our once great nation.
Let God sort it out...if there is a God this doesn't matter much, if there isn't...it means even less.
The God that I believe in says it matters a great deal. It's called the Ten Commandments. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 10:03 PM
CrossDRanch - 2014-01-22 8:39 PM We are killing children and even the pro lifers know this. You don't have to look any farther than in most states if you harm an unborn baby that the mother wants you will face legal charges. We perform life saving surgeries on unborns while aborting others. We are killing babies and everyone knows it.
I disgree completely...we are not 'killing babies'...we're just not 'following through' with an idea. A possibility of a life.
We must stop the emotional bs.
We must get back on track politically, this issue is nothing more than a diversion that will further ruin our once great nation.
Let God sort it out...if there is a God this doesn't matter much, if there isn't...it means even less.
No emotional mess.... You can not charge someone with two murders when a pregnant woman is killed, but then say abortion is not murder. One or the other is simply a lie. You can not have it both ways. | |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 10:00 PM
Ever since the inception of abortion , there has been debate over what constitutes "life", the definition of life, when life begins, and even when it ends. The debate continues and it continues to be modified. People don't decide whether or not to have an abortion based on the prevailing definition of the day. They do it either because something is wrong with the baby (or perhaps the mom), rape, incest, or because it's more expedient and convenient. Far and away, it's because it's an easy solution, more convenient, etc... - but not because of some definition. I like to look at the big picture and the undeniable truths as I see them, painful to some though they may be. Tens of millions of babies have been exterminated for no good reason and if things were allowed to proceed naturally, they would be able to experience the joys of living that the rest of us have been blessed with. That just can't be denied. It hits a nerve with many, but those who are offended have a hard time coming up with a legitimate counter point. We humans tend to be awfully self centered and self serving at times. I have my own personal experiences and anecdotes too. One is my beautiful oldest daughter who was nearly scraped out and flushed down the drain. Another is a set of beautiful twins who I have recently had the sheer joy of seeing on FB. Their mother was pregnant out of wedlock and approached me about how/where to have an abortion. After an hour or two with me in my office, she changed her mind and has these beautiful kids to show for it. She recently found me on FB and asked to be "friends" so she could show me pictures. If I hadn't felt the way I did about abortion, those babies would not be alive. Not only that, but she and the father were later married, so that was a bonus. It's hard to go wrong when you are on the side of "life" and those examples are proof.
I agree with you on all of this. I guess I get caught up in "the definition" because It's been told to me as a justification that they aren't killing anything because "its not alive yet." But in reality I wonder if they carry something deep down, like if they really do struggle with it and are trying to justify it that way.
And I agree as well, when you think of it they all are denied the joys of life because they don't get to that point. And some people say, well they would have been born into horrible circumstances. But who's to say they wouldn't have persevered? Someone else dictated that and denied them the chance. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Personally, I don't consider abortion a political issue, but it is to most, and always has been. I started this thread because I felt Obama used the issue for political purposes. For me personally it's something that hits home.....it's based on my faith, my own idea of what constitutes life, and my rewarding experiences. I agree with musikmaker in that it is not something the GOP ought to be focused on, but that doesn't mean I can't be involved in the discussions and debates and attempt to win hearts and minds, so maybe more babies will live and that I might have something to do with that.
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 9:15 PM musikmaker - 2014-01-22 10:11 PM HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 9:00 PM Ever since the inception of abortion , there has been debate over what constitutes "life", the definition of life, when life begins, and even when it ends. The debate continues and it continues to be modified. People don't decide whether or not to have an abortion based on the prevailing definition of the day. They do it either because something is wrong with the baby (or perhaps the mom), rape, incest, or because it's more expedient and convenient. Far and away, it's because it's an easy solution, more convenient, etc... - but not because of some definition. I like to look at the big picture and the undeniable truths as I see them, painful to some though they may be. Tens of millions of babies have been exterminated for no good reason and if things were allowed to proceed naturally, they would be able to experience the joys of living that the rest of us have been blessed with. That just can't be denied. It hits a nerve with many, but those who are offended have a hard time coming up with a legitimate counter point. We humans tend to be awfully self centered and self serving at times. I have my own personal experiences and anecdotes too. One is my beautiful oldest daughter who was nearly scraped out and flushed down the drain. Another is a set of beautiful twins who I have recently had the sheer joy of seeing on FB. Their mother was pregnant out of wedlock and approached me about how/where to have an abortion. After an hour or two with me in my office, she changed her mind and has these beautiful kids to show for it. She recently found me on FB and asked to be "friends" so she could show me pictures. If I hadn't felt the way I did about abortion, those babies would not be alive. Not only that, but she and the father were later married, so that was a bonus. It's hard to go wrong when you are on the side of "life" and those examples are proof. Abortion was obviously not ever a real option in these examples. We are not God.
I just wish we could forgoe this discussion and encourage the only men & women out there who could save our country & this world to drop it, too. Otherwise...we're done for...all of us living breathing humans who survived the womb to be be born into this emotional mess...let's save the survivors. The rest will work out...
I'm trying to say that...it's important that we all feel we make choices, however, some things really are meant to be. Both ways. All is good! | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 9:39 PM Personally, I don't consider abortion a political issue, but it is to most, and always has been. I started this thread because I felt Obama used the issue for political purposes. For me personally it's something that hits home.....it's based on my faith, my own idea of what constitutes life, and my rewarding experiences. I agree with musikmaker in that it is not something the GOP ought to be focused on, but that doesn't mean I can't be involved in the discussions and debates and attempt to win hearts and minds, so maybe more babies will live and that I might have something to do with that.
I agree with you...I think it's an issue that will sort itself out eventually...I just really worry that the very men & women who could save our world are too caught up in this, they're losing so many votes because they're too focused on this, they need to drop it as a political tool, too, & embrace the human condition of failures that can be forgiven...otherwise? We're in trouble. They need to stop taking the bait...just this one issue could turn it all around! AND....WE are the ones who could encourage that!
Seriously...no politician stands on his/her own platform...we build it for them. This one won't hold up. It's too personal.
Now would be a great time to insist that they deal with matters that affect our freedoms, liberty & borders only.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 10:55 PM HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 9:39 PM Personally, I don't consider abortion a political issue, but it is to most, and always has been. I started this thread because I felt Obama used the issue for political purposes. For me personally it's something that hits home.....it's based on my faith, my own idea of what constitutes life, and my rewarding experiences. I agree with musikmaker in that it is not something the GOP ought to be focused on, but that doesn't mean I can't be involved in the discussions and debates and attempt to win hearts and minds, so maybe more babies will live and that I might have something to do with that. I agree with you...I think it's an issue that will sort itself out eventually...I just really worry that the very men & women who could save our world are too caught up in this, they're losing so many votes because they're too focused on this, they need to drop it as a political tool, too, & embrace the human condition of failures that can be forgiven...otherwise? We're in trouble. They need to stop taking the bait...just this one issue could turn it all around! AND....WE are the ones who could encourage that!
Seriously...no politician stands on his/her own platform...we build it for them. This one won't hold up. It's too personal.
Now would be a great time to insist that they deal with matters that affect our freedoms, liberty & borders only.
Individual citizens who care about this issue can and should focus on this. After all it is that very freedom you cite that enables us to do just that. I don't have an "on-off mode" where I can only focus on one thing. We all have several things we care about. I don't need a politician to pick up the mantle for me on everything. I don't think many polticians sound very compelling or convincing on this matter anyway. They just keep repeating the same battle cry, but it too often rings hollow. It's the individual citizens who engage in discussions just like this one who can and will make the difference. I think we can and must focus on many things, some of which are more appropriate for political discourse, while others are more suited to what we are doing here right now. I don't consider the topic to be taboo. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 246
Location: OK | I personally can see both sides of the argument. Only speaking from my personal views, abortion is wrong on so many levels. Using it as birth control is beyond comprehension.
There's a "but" in there though. I have been present in a couple of cases where the mother, while not at risk herself, the baby had something so wrong it would never survive both times the pregnancy had to be terminated. NOT at the request of the mother, they wanted the baby and were heartbroken. WHO are we going to put in charge of deciding who gets to have the procedure and who doesn't? Even if the cases are rare, when it might be YOU or your daughter or sister, it could seem barbaric that you would have to jump through a bunch of hoops.
Also, if we hold to the "life begins at conception" then what birth control methods are going to be taken off the market? Will they try to take away the morning after pill (which is NOT the abortion pill) especially for victims of rape? (Isn't it a whole lot easier for women to take that pill if they've been raped and reduce their risk of even getting pregnant than for them to have to make an awful decision a few weeks later?)
It's certainly not something I would want on my shoulders to decide for someone else
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | I'm going to leave any political or religious aspects out of this but just think of this...........Of the 55 million aborted, one of them just might have discovered the cure for all types of cancer. One of them may have discovered the cure for Huntingtons disease. One of them might have been the greatest president we have ever known. One of them just might have actually achieved true world peace. The possabilities are endless and we might be stuck where we are at this currant time because greatness could very possibly have been aborted. Sad to say the least. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | ThreeCorners - 2014-01-23 7:09 AM I'm going to leave any political or religious aspects out of this but just think of this...........Of the 55 million aborted, one of them just might have discovered the cure for all types of cancer. One of them may have discovered the cure for Huntingtons disease. One of them might have been the greatest president we have ever known. One of them just might have actually achieved true world peace. The possabilities are endless and we might be stuck where we are at this currant time because greatness could very possibly have been aborted. Sad to say the least.
That's a good point.
In recent years there have been attempts to pass laws requiring an ultrasound before an abortion can be performed and the laws have required that the baby's anatomy be described verbally to the mother, etc.... Obviously, this is an attempt to be sure the mother really fully understands what she is about to do. I've heard opponents say that this is a cruel attempt to guilt the mother into not having an abortion.
Of course, what those same opponents of the law fail to recognize is that guilt is, more often than not, still experienced later on, and that guilt is often carried with the mother for the remainder of her life. They are quick to point out how this unfairly uses guilt as a tool to manipulate the mother. They omit the fact that mothers seldom feel guilty for giving the baby a chance at life. I see nothing wrong with the notion of "informed" consent, so long as the information presented to the mother is the truth.....as the saying goes, sometimes "the truth hurts". Still, I don't think abortion can or should be legislated. As the public becomes more informed and with advances in medical technology, abortion proponents are naturally becoming fewer and fewer. I do favor laws that ban the use of taxpayer money to fund abortion and abortion clinics. With informed consent, I think abortions will decline, and so will abortion clinics. In fact, we are seeing fewer abortions now and more and more abortion clinics are closing. There is one major reason for this: the truth. | |
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 Wide Darn Open
Posts: 2141
| There are so many issues with abortion that just don't add up. First of all, it's either a life or it's not. If we as a country decide it's not a life, we CANNOT charge someone with two murders for killing a pregnant person. Pick your version of "truth" and stick to it. We as humans seem to want to manipulate each situation to suit us at that particular time...hypocritical.
Second, a baby cannot live on its own for a long time after birth so if it's only life when it becomes independent of another, then women old be able to terminate her 18 month old should she choose.
Third, if the father has no rights before the child is born, he should have no responsibility after it's born. This is another very hypocritical aspect of a "woman's right." If she chooses to abort the child, he has no say in it...if she chooses to keep the baby, he has is expected to take responsibility for the next 18 years.
I respect everyone's right to their opinion, I just have no respect for hypocrites. I personally think the best way to reduce abortion is through education, even at the youngest stages. I wish kids were still taught love and respect for each other instead of being taught that the world revolves around them and whatever they want at any given time. I think abortion wouldn't be seen as an easy out by someone who didn't have parents fighting teachers and everyone else to make sure their child gets his/her way and never has to suffer any consequences.
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | It's pretty easy for me to say that I would not have one from the shelter of a happy marriage and an established, stable career.
I don't judge people who make that choice. We all have our own paths to walk in this life. If anything, someone in that situation needs compassion, not judgement.
I will say that making abortions illegal is not the way to go, IMO. I'm more on the libertarian end of the political spectrum... the government has no place in such an issue. I think it is pathetic to see politicians on both sides squabble over this issue time and time again solely for political gain. An issue like this is extremely personal and is usually not black and white... life is not usually that way... life is shades of gray, my friends.
Edited by barrelracr131 2014-01-23 9:21 AM
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | I think it's impossible to leave out the religious/political aspect...myself, I don't believe that souls are created in the womb...I don't believe that any man/woman has the power to extinguish a soul. I do believe that we all arrive with the knowledge of the Universe...and that we choose our situation. That is why I don't believe it's 'murder'...with the knowledge that a soul must have it would know that it wasn't going to be a viable 'womb' or 'time'. I sincerely believe that this issue is just another opportunity for us to learn from, to get past. A 'tool' if you will in the journey of mankind.
Of course, I may not be right...this is simply what I believe through observation and reason.
How can a woman be made to "fully understand what she is about to do" when nobody really knows?
Doctors don't know. Biblical scholars don't know. And politicians sure as he** don't know.
Removing a womans choice puts us back in the dark ages. It makes us slaves to the whims of men.
I'm glad that people talk about these things...it's the only way we'll ever get through it, fix it, but, don't be hatin'! Lol... | |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse? | |
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 Ima Fickle Fan
Posts: 3547
Location: Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 9:29 PM casualdust07 - 2014-01-22 7:35 PM The older I get the more pro life I become. When I was in high school, I remember being made felt that if you were pro life you were backward or behind the times, and that in order to pro women's rights you should be pro choice. I remember the thought process of many girls in school that there wasn't much to worry about because you could just "get it taken care of"…Where I went to college, oh dear it was the same way…at least in the Biology department where I had most of my friends. At the college I went to, they had a display case of fetuses throughout all stages of pregnancy, showing the different stages of development. I guess for curiosity's sake one day I asked my friend and his girlfriend, when we were looking at the display, when they thought life began. They both were convinced up and down that the fetus was not alive until it was born to term, and that it was only a parasite off the mother because if you left it to it's own, it would die. I was speechless.. I guess in my mind I was expecting them to say "when they have a heart beat" or something. With the logic they had, we are all parasite for the first several years of life or more! Anyway, the older I get, the more I lean toward being pro life. A friend of mine told me, people think you aren't pro women's rights if you are against abortions, but really you are for the rights of those who don't have a voice of their own. I personally believe life begins at conception. I'm taking embryology right now and it's amazing how fast cells start dividing and organs start forming. That heart is forming before a lot of people know they are pregnant. So I am looking at it on a scientific and emotional standpoint… I feel there is a place for abortions given circumstances of health, rape, incest, etc… but I hate how some people take advantage of it. I also wouldn't like the government telling me I couldn't do something. I am conflicted. I think a lot of people are 'conflicted' on this issue...part of it must be the entire 'when does life begin?'. A heartbeat you say? How about that 12 year old girl who is being kept alive even though she's brain dead? Or the lady who is pregnant...same thing? They are not 'alive'...even though modern technology is keeping their hearts beating.
Look up the word 'conceive'. it's an idea, a possibility...not an absolute.
If we want to delve into the 'God has a plan & knows everything before we do...' concept then why would He set a woman up this way knowing she would abort before she knew it? Wouldn't that make him partly responsible?
There are no easy answers & I truly believe that we are just on a journey...one that will hopefully make us more aware, appreciative and responsible...to & for our 'possibilities'...how we 'conceive' ourselves. Morally. Honestly. Humanely.
Murder? Are we more powerful than we think? Are we in control of lives besides our own? Are we God? Can we destroy what He creates? I don't think so, myself. Therefore, I must say it is not a life until it takes the Breath of Life...the soul who has chosen that body, that journey, then enters the body.
I sincerely hope that this 'issue' becomes a 'non-issue' at some point...and I think it will, but, not through legislation...through having the choice...and choosing decency...from the beginning of the possibilities.
God doesn't set anyone up to make a bad decision. That is where our free agency comes into play. We are given the opportunity on Earth to make good and bad decisions. The choice is ours alone. To blame God for a bad decision would be the equivalent of saying that God is both good and evil. It would also nullify any religious argument because if God is both good and evil, there would be no reason to live a moral and virtuous life and no need to believe in God.
Personally, I have a hard time with abortion. I have lived my life in a way that I would never be placed in that situation. Even now, I am 36 weeks pregnant and considered a high-risk pregnancy due to my age. Because of that, I had to see a high-risk OBGYN and go through "genetic counseling" so that I could learn my options based upon several "probability" tests. These tests give you a 1 in whatever chance of having a child with defects. This lady talked to me for more than an hour about the need for the tests while I still had "options." I finally looked at her and said, "Terminating this pregnancy is not an option for me. I chose to get pregnant. Regardless of the outcome, my husband and I will love and care for this baby." Needless to say, I declined all tests.
I have friends who chose to have abortions and struggle with their decision daily. But I believe they struggle with it because they chose to have one based upon a baby being an inconvenience and they weren't ready to be a parent. In this day and age, there are so many ways to prevent pregnancy that a baby being inconvenient should not be a valid reason for an abortion. Heck, when I got my flu shot the other day, they were selling the Plan B pill in front of the pharmacy and you had to request generic cold medicine that is now located behind the counter. How messed up is that???
There are circumstances where abortion should be allowed, but refusing to take preventative measures and then crying inconvenience should not be one of them. I'm sorry, at some point, people need to take responsibility for themselves. We teach our children not to touch a hot stove, we sure as heck need to do a better job about educating them about sex and pregnancy. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Here is how I see it. Making abortion illegal is not the answer. Women have been getting abortions since the beginning of time, legal or not. We need to convince women that abortion isn't the answer and offer alternatives. And the promoting of abortion needs to stop. Offer the service but discourage its use. | |
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Miracle in the Making
Posts: 4013
| Douglas J Gordon - 2014-01-22 9:18 PM Hey without abortion we wouldn't have Los Alamitos Race Track! Sorry to say!
HUH? can you clarify i missed that 1 loved that track and accross the street was the paddock great track bar | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | vjls - 2014-01-23 9:23 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2014-01-22 9:18 PM Hey without abortion we wouldn't have Los Alamitos Race Track! Sorry to say! HUH? can you clarify i missed that 1 loved that track and accross the street was the paddock great track bar
yes, that also confused me lol | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | aggiejudger - 2014-01-23 8:09 AM musikmaker - 2014-01-22 9:29 PM casualdust07 - 2014-01-22 7:35 PM The older I get the more pro life I become. When I was in high school, I remember being made felt that if you were pro life you were backward or behind the times, and that in order to pro women's rights you should be pro choice. I remember the thought process of many girls in school that there wasn't much to worry about because you could just "get it taken care of"…Where I went to college, oh dear it was the same way…at least in the Biology department where I had most of my friends. At the college I went to, they had a display case of fetuses throughout all stages of pregnancy, showing the different stages of development. I guess for curiosity's sake one day I asked my friend and his girlfriend, when we were looking at the display, when they thought life began. They both were convinced up and down that the fetus was not alive until it was born to term, and that it was only a parasite off the mother because if you left it to it's own, it would die. I was speechless.. I guess in my mind I was expecting them to say "when they have a heart beat" or something. With the logic they had, we are all parasite for the first several years of life or more! Anyway, the older I get, the more I lean toward being pro life. A friend of mine told me, people think you aren't pro women's rights if you are against abortions, but really you are for the rights of those who don't have a voice of their own. I personally believe life begins at conception. I'm taking embryology right now and it's amazing how fast cells start dividing and organs start forming. That heart is forming before a lot of people know they are pregnant. So I am looking at it on a scientific and emotional standpoint… I feel there is a place for abortions given circumstances of health, rape, incest, etc… but I hate how some people take advantage of it. I also wouldn't like the government telling me I couldn't do something. I am conflicted. I think a lot of people are 'conflicted' on this issue...part of it must be the entire 'when does life begin?'. A heartbeat you say? How about that 12 year old girl who is being kept alive even though she's brain dead? Or the lady who is pregnant...same thing? They are not 'alive'...even though modern technology is keeping their hearts beating.
Look up the word 'conceive'. it's an idea, a possibility...not an absolute.
If we want to delve into the 'God has a plan & knows everything before we do...' concept then why would He set a woman up this way knowing she would abort before she knew it? Wouldn't that make him partly responsible?
There are no easy answers & I truly believe that we are just on a journey...one that will hopefully make us more aware, appreciative and responsible...to & for our 'possibilities'...how we 'conceive' ourselves. Morally. Honestly. Humanely.
Murder? Are we more powerful than we think? Are we in control of lives besides our own? Are we God? Can we destroy what He creates? I don't think so, myself. Therefore, I must say it is not a life until it takes the Breath of Life...the soul who has chosen that body, that journey, then enters the body.
I sincerely hope that this 'issue' becomes a 'non-issue' at some point...and I think it will, but, not through legislation...through having the choice...and choosing decency...from the beginning of the possibilities.
Personally, I have a hard time with abortion. I have lived my life in a way that I would never be placed in that situation. Even now, I am 36 weeks pregnant and considered a high-risk pregnancy due to my age. Because of that, I had to see a high-risk OBGYN and go through "genetic counseling" so that I could learn my options based upon several "probability" tests. These tests give you a 1 in whatever chance of having a child with defects. This lady talked to me for more than an hour about the need for the tests while I still had "options." I finally looked at her and said, "Terminating this pregnancy is not an option for me. I chose to get pregnant. Regardless of the outcome, my husband and I will love and care for this baby." Needless to say, I declined all tests.
I have friends who chose to have abortions and struggle with their decision daily. But I believe they struggle with it because they chose to have one based upon a baby being an inconvenience and they weren't ready to be a parent. In this day and age, there are so many ways to prevent pregnancy that a baby being inconvenient should not be a valid reason for an abortion. Heck, when I got my flu shot the other day, they were selling the Plan B pill in front of the pharmacy and you had to request generic cold medicine that is now located behind the counter. How messed up is that???
There are circumstances where abortion should be allowed, but refusing to take preventative measures and then crying inconvenience should not be one of them. I'm sorry, at some point, people need to take responsibility for themselves. We teach our children not to touch a hot stove, we sure as heck need to do a better job about educating them about sex and pregnancy.
Good points & although I'm way past the age of having anymore children...I highly doubt that I would have tested for possibilities had they been available when I was pregnant...you get what you get.
Maybe, on the other 'thought line', I should have said, 'setting up a soul' to be terminated.
We've all heard the stories of babies who were thought to be still born & hours later they miraculously were alive...it makes a person wonder if the soul just wasn't so certain about 'going there'?
There's so much that we don't consider as it's not what we've been taught...
I still wish the politicians would shut the heck up on this subject & simply fight for our right to fail...to learn...to make mistakes as humans so we may go forward in the land of the free. Protect our 'free agency'. | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| vjls - 2014-01-23 9:23 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2014-01-22 9:18 PM Hey without abortion we wouldn't have Los Alamitos Race Track! Sorry to say! HUH? can you clarify i missed that 1 loved that track and accross the street was the paddock great track bar
The owner of the race track was a physician who owned abortion clinics. He made comments in the 80's that the clinics were necessary to stop the tide of welfare moms and immigrants. He said if he could he would have free clinics in Mexico and Los Angeles. | |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | aggiejudger - 2014-01-23 7:09 AM musikmaker - 2014-01-22 9:29 PM casualdust07 - 2014-01-22 7:35 PM The older I get the more pro life I become. When I was in high school, I remember being made felt that if you were pro life you were backward or behind the times, and that in order to pro women's rights you should be pro choice. I remember the thought process of many girls in school that there wasn't much to worry about because you could just "get it taken care of"…Where I went to college, oh dear it was the same way…at least in the Biology department where I had most of my friends. At the college I went to, they had a display case of fetuses throughout all stages of pregnancy, showing the different stages of development. I guess for curiosity's sake one day I asked my friend and his girlfriend, when we were looking at the display, when they thought life began. They both were convinced up and down that the fetus was not alive until it was born to term, and that it was only a parasite off the mother because if you left it to it's own, it would die. I was speechless.. I guess in my mind I was expecting them to say "when they have a heart beat" or something. With the logic they had, we are all parasite for the first several years of life or more! Anyway, the older I get, the more I lean toward being pro life. A friend of mine told me, people think you aren't pro women's rights if you are against abortions, but really you are for the rights of those who don't have a voice of their own. I personally believe life begins at conception. I'm taking embryology right now and it's amazing how fast cells start dividing and organs start forming. That heart is forming before a lot of people know they are pregnant. So I am looking at it on a scientific and emotional standpoint… I feel there is a place for abortions given circumstances of health, rape, incest, etc… but I hate how some people take advantage of it. I also wouldn't like the government telling me I couldn't do something. I am conflicted. I think a lot of people are 'conflicted' on this issue...part of it must be the entire 'when does life begin?'. A heartbeat you say? How about that 12 year old girl who is being kept alive even though she's brain dead? Or the lady who is pregnant...same thing? They are not 'alive'...even though modern technology is keeping their hearts beating.
Look up the word 'conceive'. it's an idea, a possibility...not an absolute.
If we want to delve into the 'God has a plan & knows everything before we do...' concept then why would He set a woman up this way knowing she would abort before she knew it? Wouldn't that make him partly responsible?
There are no easy answers & I truly believe that we are just on a journey...one that will hopefully make us more aware, appreciative and responsible...to & for our 'possibilities'...how we 'conceive' ourselves. Morally. Honestly. Humanely.
Murder? Are we more powerful than we think? Are we in control of lives besides our own? Are we God? Can we destroy what He creates? I don't think so, myself. Therefore, I must say it is not a life until it takes the Breath of Life...the soul who has chosen that body, that journey, then enters the body.
I sincerely hope that this 'issue' becomes a 'non-issue' at some point...and I think it will, but, not through legislation...through having the choice...and choosing decency...from the beginning of the possibilities.
There are circumstances where abortion should be allowed, but refusing to take preventative measures and then crying inconvenience should not be one of them. I'm sorry, at some point, people need to take responsibility for themselves. We teach our children not to touch a hot stove, we sure as heck need to do a better job about educating them about sex and pregnancy.
Edited by justcruzin 2014-01-23 9:42 AM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | justcruzin - 2014-01-23 8:55 AM
Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse?
This is the typical counter point used by pro-abortionists. I'm not talking about the "pro choice" people......I'm talking pro-death/pro-abortionists.
It's really twisted logic, when you get down to it. Pro life people would look at 100 babies who aren't aborted and say they have freedom to become whatever they want....to pursue dreams, to succeed, and to fail. Pro-abortionists would look at it more like eugenics.....to snuff out those lives would potentially protect society from evil. Think it's fair to say that in this country, most people to on to lead a fulfilling life in one form or another. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | rodeomom3 - 2014-01-23 9:30 AM vjls - 2014-01-23 9:23 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2014-01-22 9:18 PM Hey without abortion we wouldn't have Los Alamitos Race Track! Sorry to say! HUH? can you clarify i missed that 1 loved that track and accross the street was the paddock great track bar The owner of the race track was a physician who owned abortion clinics. He made comments in the 80's that the clinics were necessary to stop the tide of welfare moms and immigrants. He said if he could he would have free clinics in Mexico and Los Angeles.
OH, ok.
now I get it | |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-23 7:40 AM justcruzin - 2014-01-23 8:55 AM Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse? This is the typical counter point used by pro-abortionists. I'm not talking about the "pro choice" people......I'm talking pro-death/pro-abortionists. It's really twisted logic, when you get down to it. Pro life people would look at 100 babies who aren't aborted and say they have freedom to become whatever they want....to pursue dreams, to succeed, and to fail. Pro-abortionists would look at it more like eugenics.....to snuff out those lives would potentially protect society from evil. Think it's fair to say that in this country, most people to on to lead a fulfilling life in one form or another.
I couldn't wait for your response.... | |
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Ima Fickle Fan
Posts: 3547
Location: Texas | justcruzin - 2014-01-23 9:40 AM aggiejudger - 2014-01-23 7:09 AM musikmaker - 2014-01-22 9:29 PM casualdust07 - 2014-01-22 7:35 PM The older I get the more pro life I become. When I was in high school, I remember being made felt that if you were pro life you were backward or behind the times, and that in order to pro women's rights you should be pro choice. I remember the thought process of many girls in school that there wasn't much to worry about because you could just "get it taken care of"…Where I went to college, oh dear it was the same way…at least in the Biology department where I had most of my friends. At the college I went to, they had a display case of fetuses throughout all stages of pregnancy, showing the different stages of development. I guess for curiosity's sake one day I asked my friend and his girlfriend, when we were looking at the display, when they thought life began. They both were convinced up and down that the fetus was not alive until it was born to term, and that it was only a parasite off the mother because if you left it to it's own, it would die. I was speechless.. I guess in my mind I was expecting them to say "when they have a heart beat" or something. With the logic they had, we are all parasite for the first several years of life or more! Anyway, the older I get, the more I lean toward being pro life. A friend of mine told me, people think you aren't pro women's rights if you are against abortions, but really you are for the rights of those who don't have a voice of their own. I personally believe life begins at conception. I'm taking embryology right now and it's amazing how fast cells start dividing and organs start forming. That heart is forming before a lot of people know they are pregnant. So I am looking at it on a scientific and emotional standpoint… I feel there is a place for abortions given circumstances of health, rape, incest, etc… but I hate how some people take advantage of it. I also wouldn't like the government telling me I couldn't do something. I am conflicted. I think a lot of people are 'conflicted' on this issue...part of it must be the entire 'when does life begin?'. A heartbeat you say? How about that 12 year old girl who is being kept alive even though she's brain dead? Or the lady who is pregnant...same thing? They are not 'alive'...even though modern technology is keeping their hearts beating.
Look up the word 'conceive'. it's an idea, a possibility...not an absolute.
If we want to delve into the 'God has a plan & knows everything before we do...' concept then why would He set a woman up this way knowing she would abort before she knew it? Wouldn't that make him partly responsible?
There are no easy answers & I truly believe that we are just on a journey...one that will hopefully make us more aware, appreciative and responsible...to & for our 'possibilities'...how we 'conceive' ourselves. Morally. Honestly. Humanely.
Murder? Are we more powerful than we think? Are we in control of lives besides our own? Are we God? Can we destroy what He creates? I don't think so, myself. Therefore, I must say it is not a life until it takes the Breath of Life...the soul who has chosen that body, that journey, then enters the body.
I sincerely hope that this 'issue' becomes a 'non-issue' at some point...and I think it will, but, not through legislation...through having the choice...and choosing decency...from the beginning of the possibilities.
There are circumstances where abortion should be allowed, but refusing to take preventative measures and then crying inconvenience should not be one of them. I'm sorry, at some point, people need to take responsibility for themselves. We teach our children not to touch a hot stove, we sure as heck need to do a better job about educating them about sex and pregnancy.
I pray for that too. And I am so sorry for your friend. From my ultrasounds, everything has appeared healthy. If like your friend experienced by having issues raised during pregnancy, my outlook would probably be different. That is an extremely hard issue to face.
At the end of the day, I can only control so much and I leave the rest to God. Many prayers for your friend because her situation is heart breaking and I'm not sure one that I could bear. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-23 8:44 AM
I think it's impossible to leave out the religious/political aspect...myself, I don't believe that souls are created in the womb...I don't believe that any man/woman has the power to extinguish a soul. I do believe that we all arrive with the knowledge of the Universe...and that we choose our situation. That is why I don't believe it's 'murder'...with the knowledge that a soul must have it would know that it wasn't going to be a viable 'womb' or 'time'. I sincerely believe that this issue is just another opportunity for us to learn from, to get past. A 'tool' if you will in the journey of mankind.
Of course, I may not be right...this is simply what I believe through observation and reason.
How can a woman be made to "fully understand what she is about to do" when nobody really knows?
Doctors don't know. Biblical scholars don't know. And politicians sure as he** don't know.
Removing a womans choice puts us back in the dark ages. It makes us slaves to the whims of men.
I'm glad that people talk about these things...it's the only way we'll ever get through it, fix it, but, don't be hatin'! Lol...
Absolutely, to a very large extent, doctors know exactly what they are about to do when they perform an abortion. A person can debate on the semantics, and bring in concepts such as the "soul", however this is not what I would do when it comes to informed consent. What absolutely cannot be refuted is the fact that an abortion is an unnatural interruption of a natural process that culminates in the birth of a living human being. Abortion terminates that process. A fetus is living. It is life, in my opinion. I would feel that part of the informed consent would be to point out the anatomy of that baby on ultrasound. I would describe what an abortion entails. I would want to make sure that woman doesn't walk out of the abortion clinic, only to learn later on that she didn't fully realize what she did. I would also discuss options such as adoption and point out how that can make a situation where there is really no up-side, and turn it into a scenario that could yield lifelong satisfaction that she can make a selfless sacrifice so another human being has an opportunity to enjoy life fully. In a way, I look at it a little like organ donation. When a beloved family member becomes brain dead, it is a tragedy for that family. In the midst of that tragedy lies the opportunity for their loved one to save lives or to make someone's life full. That loved one has the opportunity to be a hero in the end. A woman who carries an unwanted pregnancy to term selflessly, has that same opportunity, in a way.
She can give that baby a chance. Those twins I talked about in an earlier post were nearly terminated......but this kind of reasoning that I pointed out to the mother really resonated with her. This kind of approach is what is leading to they decline in abortion rates. | |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-23 9:09 AM Here is how I see it. Making abortion illegal is not the answer. Women have been getting abortions since the beginning of time, legal or not. We need to convince women that abortion isn't the answer and offer alternatives. And the promoting of abortion needs to stop. Offer the service but discourage its use.
I agree. It makes me wonder what kind of a world we would start to live in if we took all the time and energy devoted to the abortion issue and put that towards trying to better regulate, manage and coax people into adoption.
As for the government's role in abortion, I say that it has a right to be heard. Afterall, it's the government who is in charge of picking up the pieces on what happens to children who are unwanted or abused when they fall into CPS court or even our juvenile/prison system later on. If you work in that area long enough, you start to see the issue through a different lens and want more than just a yea or nay option to things.
I'm not a big fan of abortion but I'm also not a big fan of watching a parent basically abuse an unwanted child that will carry scars -- both physical and emotional -- for the rest of his/her life because their parent was too selfish to give them up to someone who would properly care for them. I've seen parents put on the most theatric displays and outbursts worthy of an Oscar in the back of a courtroom when their child -- who they neglected and starved both food and affection from -- was taken away from them. "Oh Lord! DON'T TAKE MY BABY! DON'T TAKE MY BABY!!!!" coming from the same mouth who would scream at them so loud the neighbors could hear on a daily basis all the emotional abuse the child(ren) were subjected to.
I don't know what the answer is. I just know that nobody wins in this game -- not either side even when they get what they want. | |
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BHW's Lance Armstrong
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@%&# stirrer and Saint | vjls - 2014-01-23 9:23 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2014-01-22 9:18 PM Hey without abortion we wouldn't have Los Alamitos Race Track! Sorry to say! HUH? can you clarify i missed that 1 loved that track and accross the street was the paddock great track bar
I was told that Ed Allred was an abortion doctor! | |
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Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | justcruzin - 2014-01-24 7:55 AM Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse?
Seriously? This line of thinking both made me laugh and cry. Laugh because it is so off the wall to try and justify a decision like this by saying the child might grow up to be a monster, therefore OK to end its life. Cry, because there are people stupid enough to buy into this argument.  | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I love the quote from Reagan:
"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
That sums it up. | |
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 Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | classicpotatochip - 2014-01-22 7:00 PM
After trying a horse at the Still Creek Ranch facility, I became a bi-yearly contributor to their equine program. I saw the oodles and oodles of little kids that didn't have anywhere to go. A good many of them had some sort of health problem, usually because of mothers that used drugs during pregnancy. Even though it hurts my heart, I just don't think that abortion should be outlawed. We put our animals down when their "quality of life" because of pain or mental suffering becomes what we deem "too much'. Why should doing the same for our fellow man that cannot think for themselves that we bear a direct responsibility for be any different?
In a perfect world, all healthy babies would be born, loved, kept, adopted, fed well, treated well, cherished, educated, and given the down payment on their first home. In a perfect world, women wouldn't be irresponsible, men wouldn't be idiots, and every baby would be welcomed into this world.
It is not a perfect world. Horrible things happen. If we illegalize abortion, women will be using (and dying horrible deaths) using coat hangers, lutalyse, and a good many other horrible ideas. Abortion dates back thousands of years, WAY before Christianity. I'm sorry, I'm not willing to trade my sisters, aunts, mothers, and friends because they don't want to be pregnant. An abortion is between a woman and herself. It's not between a woman and the media. It's not between a woman and President Obama. It's not between a woman and you. It's not between a woman and me. I think it's an absolute shame that something so incredibly private and shattering is even publicized by someone as loud and crude as a politician. That is the true shame.
Your orginal analysis fits in well w/ the way The Nazis sold The Halocaust.
Edited by foundation horse 2014-01-23 11:28 AM
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | Hollywood's Fan - 2014-01-23 8:57 AM justcruzin - 2014-01-24 7:55 AM Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse? Seriously? This line of thinking both made me laugh and cry. Laugh because it is so off the wall to try and justify a decision like this by saying the child might grow up to be a monster, therefore OK to end its life. Cry, because there are people stupid enough to buy into this argument.
You missed it, but thats ok. | |
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Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | justcruzin - 2014-01-24 10:22 AM Hollywood's Fan - 2014-01-23 8:57 AM justcruzin - 2014-01-24 7:55 AM Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse? Seriously? This line of thinking both made me laugh and cry. Laugh because it is so off the wall to try and justify a decision like this by saying the child might grow up to be a monster, therefore OK to end its life. Cry, because there are people stupid enough to buy into this argument.
Oh, here we go with one of your typical "You are so stupid you missed it." arguments. Truth is, your statement was so bazaar that not even the leftist of the left would dare use this argument to support abortion. I didn't miss a thing. If you want to try and downplay what you said, or retract it, do so. It seriously was one of the dumbest comments I have read in a long time, I can understand why you woulld want to. | |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | Hollywood's Fan - 2014-01-23 9:36 AM justcruzin - 2014-01-24 10:22 AM Hollywood's Fan - 2014-01-23 8:57 AM justcruzin - 2014-01-24 7:55 AM Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse? Seriously? This line of thinking both made me laugh and cry. Laugh because it is so off the wall to try and justify a decision like this by saying the child might grow up to be a monster, therefore OK to end its life. Cry, because there are people stupid enough to buy into this argument.
Wow, what's is your problem?
Here let me break it down for you. It was a question, simple as that. When someone mentioned a savoir (so to speak) could have been aborted, I simply asked that the coin be flipped. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Is it because you are always on the attack? Like to read things into it, I don't know. | |
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 Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12708
| Alrighty Dr. Scott. You just had to bring up the one and only policital issue I ever comment on. Bad Scott.
But for today I'm going to respond in a different way and try to back the issue up and think about it from there.
Personal choice and responsibility? But then again, I didn't have a choice in any step of my situation other than maybe never being around HS rodeo, or horses. Religion? But the country was built on religious freedom and one choice is to not be religious so not sure on that one. When life begins? It's all live tissue from before the act that creates a zygote. Government/political interference? Roe v Wade was huge. The policial involvement started years and years before the final hearing and decision. For as long as religions have a voice in politics abortion will be among the top choices in gubmt food fights.
There is no one right answer for this issue. There can be wrong answers for individuals. This is not the only issue with the same dilemma. And the government already has too much say in many personal choice issues.
I believe so strongly in the right to choose. Not just with this issue but with everything. I'm one who thinks a good answer to so many of todays problems is to remove the warning stickers!!
Government interference is NEVER the right answer for any problem no matter how big or small. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1586
Location: west of East Texas | I believe in God. I believe He gave his own son for our eternal life. I believe this earth life is just a portion of what we will experience as one of His children. I believe God decides on different lapses of time for our spirit to participate in earthly activities. I believe it is God's plan and purpose for every minute of our earthly lives to teach, to test, to praise, to use, to educate, to reward, to punish, to form our spirit to that which He wants us to become. I had six pregnancies. I have two children. I asked myself why so many times I couldn't count them why this would happen to me. Why does a child die? Why do pregnancies happen but no child is born? Why do pregnancies come when they aren't wanted? Why do pregnancies not come when they are prayed for fervently? But then I asked God why. I learned that sometimes the gift was in the pregnancy (or lack of), and it is in God's plan how long any of us are earth bound.
Government needs to stay out from between me and God. And so do each of you. Yes, I'm pro-choice. I wouldn't force my beliefs on another, just encourage, invite and persuade.....
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | lonely va barrelxr - 2014-01-23 12:00 PM
Alrighty Dr. Scott. You just had to bring up the one and only policital issue I ever comment on. Bad Scott.
But for today I'm going to respond in a different way and try to back the issue up and think about it from there.
Personal choice and responsibility? But then again, I didn't have a choice in any step of my situation other than maybe never being around HS rodeo, or horses. Religion? But the country was built on religious freedom and one choice is to not be religious so not sure on that one. When life begins? It's all live tissue from before the act that creates a zygote. Government/political interference? Roe v Wade was huge. The policial involvement started years and years before the final hearing and decision. For as long as religions have a voice in politics abortion will be among the top choices in gubmt food fights.
There is no one right answer for this issue. There can be wrong answers for individuals. This is not the only issue with the same dilemma. And the government already has too much say in many personal choice issues.
I believe so strongly in the right to choose. Not just with this issue but with everything. I'm one who thinks a good answer to so many of todays problems is to remove the warning stickers!!
Government interference is NEVER the right answer for any problem no matter how big or small.
Actually, Lorie, I know your story and I don't fault you for any decisions you made at all. I have always said abortion is one issue that can't be legislated.
It is a very emotionally charged issue because of the strong feelings on both sides. I think that is precisely why it needs to be talked about. I don't think it's helpful to avoid difficult issues. Think it is discussions like this that make abortion less common.....and that without a government mandate or sweeping legislation. The trends we are seeing today is proof to me. | |
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Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12708
| HotbearLVR - 2014-01-23 12:21 PM
lonely va barrelxr - 2014-01-23 12:00 PM
Alrighty Dr. Scott. You just had to bring up the one and only policital issue I ever comment on. Bad Scott.
But for today I'm going to respond in a different way and try to back the issue up and think about it from there.
Personal choice and responsibility? But then again, I didn't have a choice in any step of my situation other than maybe never being around HS rodeo, or horses. Religion? But the country was built on religious freedom and one choice is to not be religious so not sure on that one. When life begins? It's all live tissue from before the act that creates a zygote. Government/political interference? Roe v Wade was huge. The policial involvement started years and years before the final hearing and decision. For as long as religions have a voice in politics abortion will be among the top choices in gubmt food fights.
There is no one right answer for this issue. There can be wrong answers for individuals. This is not the only issue with the same dilemma. And the government already has too much say in many personal choice issues.
I believe so strongly in the right to choose. Not just with this issue but with everything. I'm one who thinks a good answer to so many of todays problems is to remove the warning stickers!!
Government interference is NEVER the right answer for any problem no matter how big or small.
Actually, Lorie, I know your story and I don't fault you for any decisions you made at all. I have always said abortion is one issue that can't be legislated.
It is a very emotionally charged issue because of the strong feelings on both sides. I think that is precisely why it needs to be talked about. I don't think it's helpful to avoid difficult issues. Think it is discussions like this that make abortion less common.....and that without a government mandate or sweeping legislation. The trends we are seeing today is proof to me.
That's why I wanted to put some less emotionally charged thoughts down today. I know there are a lot of very important issues in the world, but this might be the one, and certain is one, with NO good answer. ALL life should be special and important. Not just humans either. ALL LIFE. But we are such an aggressive and violent and greedy species. We might be the biggest flub in the food chain ever.
Then again, we have art, and music, and the ability to wonder 'why.'
Things to ponder. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | lonely va barrelxr - 2014-01-23 12:35 PM HotbearLVR - 2014-01-23 12:21 PM lonely va barrelxr - 2014-01-23 12:00 PM Alrighty Dr. Scott. You just had to bring up the one and only policital issue I ever comment on. Bad Scott.
But for today I'm going to respond in a different way and try to back the issue up and think about it from there.
Personal choice and responsibility? But then again, I didn't have a choice in any step of my situation other than maybe never being around HS rodeo, or horses. Religion? But the country was built on religious freedom and one choice is to not be religious so not sure on that one. When life begins? It's all live tissue from before the act that creates a zygote. Government/political interference? Roe v Wade was huge. The policial involvement started years and years before the final hearing and decision. For as long as religions have a voice in politics abortion will be among the top choices in gubmt food fights.
There is no one right answer for this issue. There can be wrong answers for individuals. This is not the only issue with the same dilemma. And the government already has too much say in many personal choice issues.
I believe so strongly in the right to choose. Not just with this issue but with everything. I'm one who thinks a good answer to so many of todays problems is to remove the warning stickers!!
Government interference is NEVER the right answer for any problem no matter how big or small. Actually, Lorie, I know your story and I don't fault you for any decisions you made at all. I have always said abortion is one issue that can't be legislated. It is a very emotionally charged issue because of the strong feelings on both sides. I think that is precisely why it needs to be talked about. I don't think it's helpful to avoid difficult issues. Think it is discussions like this that make abortion less common.....and that without a government mandate or sweeping legislation. The trends we are seeing today is proof to me. That's why I wanted to put some less emotionally charged thoughts down today. I know there are a lot of very important issues in the world, but this might be the one, and certain is one, with NO good answer. ALL life should be special and important. Not just humans either. ALL LIFE. But we are such an aggressive and violent and greedy species. We might be the biggest flub in the food chain ever. Then again, we have art, and music, and the ability to wonder 'why.' Things to ponder.
In my opinion there is a good answer: To keep government out of it.....to inform.....to get abortion numbers down as low as possible...to make PRO abortionists more and more irrelevant as a consequence of the informed, FREE WILL of the people. It should remain a legal safe option, albeit rare.
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Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12708
| HotbearLVR - 2014-01-23 12:55 PM lonely va barrelxr - 2014-01-23 12:35 PM HotbearLVR - 2014-01-23 12:21 PM lonely va barrelxr - 2014-01-23 12:00 PM Alrighty Dr. Scott. You just had to bring up the one and only policital issue I ever comment on. Bad Scott.
But for today I'm going to respond in a different way and try to back the issue up and think about it from there.
Personal choice and responsibility? But then again, I didn't have a choice in any step of my situation other than maybe never being around HS rodeo, or horses. Religion? But the country was built on religious freedom and one choice is to not be religious so not sure on that one. When life begins? It's all live tissue from before the act that creates a zygote. Government/political interference? Roe v Wade was huge. The policial involvement started years and years before the final hearing and decision. For as long as religions have a voice in politics abortion will be among the top choices in gubmt food fights.
There is no one right answer for this issue. There can be wrong answers for individuals. This is not the only issue with the same dilemma. And the government already has too much say in many personal choice issues.
I believe so strongly in the right to choose. Not just with this issue but with everything. I'm one who thinks a good answer to so many of todays problems is to remove the warning stickers!!
Government interference is NEVER the right answer for any problem no matter how big or small. Actually, Lorie, I know your story and I don't fault you for any decisions you made at all. I have always said abortion is one issue that can't be legislated. It is a very emotionally charged issue because of the strong feelings on both sides. I think that is precisely why it needs to be talked about. I don't think it's helpful to avoid difficult issues. Think it is discussions like this that make abortion less common.....and that without a government mandate or sweeping legislation. The trends we are seeing today is proof to me. That's why I wanted to put some less emotionally charged thoughts down today. I know there are a lot of very important issues in the world, but this might be the one, and certain is one, with NO good answer. ALL life should be special and important. Not just humans either. ALL LIFE. But we are such an aggressive and violent and greedy species. We might be the biggest flub in the food chain ever. Then again, we have art, and music, and the ability to wonder 'why.' Things to ponder.
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BHW's Lance Armstrong
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@%&# stirrer and Saint | Up-Down
Right-Wrong
Life-Death
Belief-Unbelief
Truth-False
There are Two forces in this world.
Christ-Satan
We as humans are not by chance in this great Universe-We have a purpose!
God's purpose, This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
Though we make mistakes in this life and God our Heavenly Father loves us so much that he made it possible that we can return to him by offering His Son Jesus Christ to take our sins upon him if we repent. Because we have sinned and no unclean thing can be allowed in the presence of God, the Lord through his Grace makes up that different so we can stand in the presence of God in the next life.
God's purpose for us to come to this world and experience this life physically. In this life God has allowed us our free agency (Freedom of Choice) but with that freedom of choice we are held accountable for that choice.
In this life God has allowed Satan to tempt us so that we can learn to choose. Satan's purpose is to try to disrupt Gods plan.
Satan is the Father of lies. One of Satan's major lies is the belief in abortion. Satan influences people into believing that it is their own body and they can do what they want. A fetus is not a real human being. It is not alive. I have freedom to choose. I do not have time for a baby. A baby can be terminated because it will be inconvenient. But Satan's main purpose is to prevent God's children from receiving immortality and eternal life with God. If Satan influences a person or persons to have an abortion it makes his purpose even easier because they don't even get a chance in life.
Satan is bitter! God can squash Satan at any time but he does have a purpose at this time.
At this time in our lives if we didn't know sad we wouldn't understand happiness. We would not understand right if we didn't understand wrong. We need positives and negatives to understand the other.
When it comes to abortion decision or any choice, we have in this life by following a simple guideline to help us make that choice. Jesus Christ is Truth and Light. By following the Light of Christ, we may know good from evil. If the choice for abortion isn't backed by God's purpose then we will know that it is Satan's purpose! All things which are good cometh of God, and that which is evil cometh of the devil, for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually and enticeth to sin.
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 Transplant Okie
Posts: 1206
Location: Always on call..... | barrelracr131 - 2014-01-23 8:16 AM It's pretty easy for me to say that I would not have one from the shelter of a happy marriage and an established, stable career.
I don't judge people who make that choice. We all have our own paths to walk in this life. If anything, someone in that situation needs compassion, not judgement.
I will say that making abortions illegal is not the way to go, IMO. I'm more on the libertarian end of the political spectrum... the government has no place in such an issue. I think it is pathetic to see politicians on both sides squabble over this issue time and time again solely for political gain. An issue like this is extremely personal and is usually not black and white... life is not usually that way... life is shades of gray, my friends.
Just wanted to say that I couldn't agree with you more. And with the poster who said that an abortion is an issue between a woman and herself. I HATE how this becomes so political and such a judgemental topic when very few of us have to actually make this decision.
Its very easy to say what you would or would NEVER do when the situation isn't even applicable to you. | |
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Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | justcruzin - 2014-01-24 10:44 AM Hollywood's Fan - 2014-01-23 9:36 AM justcruzin - 2014-01-24 10:22 AM Hollywood's Fan - 2014-01-23 8:57 AM justcruzin - 2014-01-24 7:55 AM Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse? Seriously? This line of thinking both made me laugh and cry. Laugh because it is so off the wall to try and justify a decision like this by saying the child might grow up to be a monster, therefore OK to end its life. Cry, because there are people stupid enough to buy into this argument.
Here let me break it down for you. It was a question, simple as that. When someone mentioned a savoir (so to speak) could have been aborted, I simply asked that the coin be flipped. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Is it because you are always on the attack? Like to read things into it, I don't know.[/quote ]
Its not hard to understand, its just an incredibly dumb argument. You cannot flip this coin. If you were to use that logic, no one should be born, we would have to kill off mankind because their may be a serial killer or rapist born. On the other hand, if we let them live we may find out whether or not a "savior" is among them.
I am just so sick of these stupid arguments, all designed at trying to justify the act of abortion. The left would like people to think it is no big deal, they try to convince young women that it is "their right". If it were the right thing to do, they wouldn't have to work so hard at trying to convince everyone. And the argument of "When does life become life?" If life doesn't begin at conception, then why don't we just leave it the heck alone. Its not life, after all, so why do we need to suck it out of the mother and get rid of it?
My daughter is expecting her second child in May. She went to get an ultra sound a couple of weeks ago. In the photos, you can see the little hands, feet, facial features. They know that it is going to be a boy. Just a couple of weeks prior, I suppose she could have had the option of having it expelled from her body (she wouldn't do that in a million years). Then she could have told herself that it wasn't really a life. You know what? IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A BIG LIE. She has a wonderful new life growing inside her and whether he grows up to be known on the world stage, or a farmer/rancher like his daddy, he will be blessed gift from God.Edited by Hollywood's Fan 2014-01-23 2:07 PM
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Transplant Okie
Posts: 1206
Location: Always on call..... | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-23 9:40 AM justcruzin - 2014-01-23 8:55 AM Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse? This is the typical counter point used by pro-abortionists. I'm not talking about the "pro choice" people......I'm talking pro-death/pro-abortionists. It's really twisted logic, when you get down to it. Pro life people would look at 100 babies who aren't aborted and say they have freedom to become whatever they want....to pursue dreams, to succeed, and to fail. Pro-abortionists would look at it more like eugenics.....to snuff out those lives would potentially protect society from evil. Think it's fair to say that in this country, most people to on to lead a fulfilling life in one form or another.
How is it twisted logic??? It is the same to say an aborted baby could have become a future world leader as it is to say they could have become a serial killer. Both points are purely speculation because there is no formula to plug a child into and predict what they will do with their lives.
Both sides of this argument are using the same logic to make their points.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Dr. J - 2014-01-23 1:55 PM
HotbearLVR - 2014-01-23 9:40 AM justcruzin - 2014-01-23 8:55 AM Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse? This is the typical counter point used by pro-abortionists. I'm not talking about the "pro choice" people......I'm talking pro-death/pro-abortionists. It's really twisted logic, when you get down to it. Pro life people would look at 100 babies who aren't aborted and say they have freedom to become whatever they want....to pursue dreams, to succeed, and to fail. Pro-abortionists would look at it more like eugenics.....to snuff out those lives would potentially protect society from evil. Think it's fair to say that in this country, most people to on to lead a fulfilling life in one form or another.
Both sides of this argument are using the same logic to make their points.
It's obvious to me that you haven't read the entire thread. Go back and read the thread and then you can throw out a remark about a statement taken out of context.
I am not using the same logic as the pro-abortionists at all, I beg to differ.
I believe the reason for declining abortions and increased abortion clinics is precisely because logic is beginning to prevail and the pro abortionists are losing. That's a good thing....wouldn't you agree DrJ? | |
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Transplant Okie
Posts: 1206
Location: Always on call..... | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-23 2:37 PM Dr. J - 2014-01-23 1:55 PM HotbearLVR - 2014-01-23 9:40 AM justcruzin - 2014-01-23 8:55 AM Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse? This is the typical counter point used by pro-abortionists. I'm not talking about the "pro choice" people......I'm talking pro-death/pro-abortionists. It's really twisted logic, when you get down to it. Pro life people would look at 100 babies who aren't aborted and say they have freedom to become whatever they want....to pursue dreams, to succeed, and to fail. Pro-abortionists would look at it more like eugenics.....to snuff out those lives would potentially protect society from evil. Think it's fair to say that in this country, most people to on to lead a fulfilling life in one form or another.
Both sides of this argument are using the same logic to make their points.
It's obvious to me that you haven't read the entire thread. Go back and read the thread and then you can throw out a remark about a statement taken out of context. I am not using the same logic as the pro-abortionists at all, I beg to differ. I believe the reason for declining abortions and increased abortion clinics is precisely because logic is beginning to prevail and the pro abortionists are losing. That's a good thing....wouldn't you agree DrJ?
Your right, I haven't read every post of this entire thread. These abortion threads get me too ****ed off, I usually know better than to even open them.
But you took justcruzin's statement WAY out of context and said she was using twisted logic by voicing an opposing thought process. So I took that one statement of yours (the one I highlighted was all that I was referencing) and said it was not any different logic than previous posters who stated aborted babies could have made a great contribution to the world.
I never said I agreed or disagreed with your entire stance on abortion. I only disagreed with that one statement. Earlier in the thread you agreed with a post that aborted babies could have gone on to do wonderful things. Justcruzin stated that conversely, aborted babies could have gone on to be awful people - and you told her that was twisted logic. No matter what side of abortion you are on, speculating what the aborted babies would have done with their lives is the SAME logic.
I am not calling you pro-abortion (though you seem to be mixing up people who are pro-choice with "pro-abortion") I am just saying that specific argument is the same thought process no matter which way you spin it. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I make a distinction between "pro abortion" and "pro choice". Pro abortionists promote abortion. Pro choice people see it as an undesirable option that they nonetheless want to preserve as a legal option. This is my distinction. I believe there are those elements out there who actually become gleeful at the prospects of women having abortions. They see it as strengthening their position. Many of them are actually more left wing political activists. Here is a quote from one such pro abortionist, just as an example, Jessica Delbalzo. Her editorial commentary is titled "Why I love Abortion":
"suggesting that abortion be “safe, legal, and rare,” and crowing that “no one likes abortion,” accomplishes nothing for women’s rights". | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I look at it this way. If 100 babies were allowed to survive and live their lives, I believe the overwhelming majority would go on to lead fulfilling, happy, productive lives. Several would probably make significant contributions to society, and leave this world just a little bit better off because of them. Those individuals would, in my estimation, far outweigh the occasional bad or evil individual. I don't believe that the theoretical notion that saving babies lives might have the unintended consequence of allowing a monster to survive, somehow cancels out the counterpoint that a future savior might be allowed to survive. Far and away, I believe the good outweighs the bad. That's why I see the counterpoint as flawed logic. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 5:54 PM
Regardless of how people 'feel' about it, this should NOT be a political issue. Keep the government out of it. There are many compelling & thought provoking arguments for both sides and ultimately it is a choice & should be kept that way...stop trying to legislate morality! All that happens is we lose all our rights!
We lose our voice on matters where we really could make a difference.
The religious right will never win at this rate.
The day will come when the rate of abortion wanes....and it won't be because it's illegal.
Quite right.. Even if Roe VS Wade is overturned, it will not make abortion against the law. It will simple send the decision back to the states to do with as they wish. | |
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Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 12:09 PM I love the quote from Reagan: "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born." That sums it up.
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | This song is sad but beautiful. And somewhat relevant. So have a listen
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt5EHAqhR1c | |
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Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | Red Raider - 2014-01-22 11:17 AM Three 4 Luck - 2014-01-23 9:09 AM Here is how I see it. Making abortion illegal is not the answer. Women have been getting abortions since the beginning of time, legal or not. We need to convince women that abortion isn't the answer and offer alternatives. And the promoting of abortion needs to stop. Offer the service but discourage its use. I agree. It makes me wonder what kind of a world we would start to live in if we took all the time and energy devoted to the abortion issue and put that towards trying to better regulate, manage and coax people into adoption.
As for the government's role in abortion, I say that it has a right to be heard. Afterall, it's the government who is in charge of picking up the pieces on what happens to children who are unwanted or abused when they fall into CPS court or even our juvenile/prison system later on. If you work in that area long enough, you start to see the issue through a different lens and want more than just a yea or nay option to things.
I'm not a big fan of abortion but I'm also not a big fan of watching a parent basically abuse an unwanted child that will carry scars -- both physical and emotional -- for the rest of his/her life because their parent was too selfish to give them up to someone who would properly care for them. I've seen parents put on the most theatric displays and outbursts worthy of an Oscar in the back of a courtroom when their child -- who they neglected and starved both food and affection from -- was taken away from them. "Oh Lord! DON'T TAKE MY BABY! DON'T TAKE MY BABY!!!!" coming from the same mouth who would scream at them so loud the neighbors could hear on a daily basis all the emotional abuse the child(ren) were subjected to.
I don't know what the answer is. I just know that nobody wins in this game -- not either side even when they get what they want.
Not get pregnant.............. | |
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Got to have my Pepsi
Posts: 6252
Location: Baden, PA | justcruzin - 2014-01-23 8:55 AM Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse?
thats the chance you have to take, cause as was stated many times in this thread, there are 55 million shoulda, woulda, couldas that now aren't at all.
Edited by VonDigger 2014-01-23 4:30 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | VonDigger - 2014-01-23 4:14 PM
justcruzin - 2014-01-23 8:55 AM Other side of the coin, what if one of those terminated pregnancies would have been another Dahmer, Hitler, Bundy? Or worse?
thats the chave you have to take, cause as was stated many times in this thread, there are 55 million should, woulda, couldas that now aren't at all.
Exactly. About the same number of lives as all of WWII. All innocent souls, as far as I'm concerned. The closest thing to pure innocence is a newborn.
I'm always moved, almost to tears when I have heard these stories of people who actually survived abortion attempts. I also recall reading that over 1000 babies who survived botched abortions, are simply allowed to die, or, in the case of Dr Gosnell, actually killed. | |
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 Dancing in my Mind
Posts: 3062
Location: Eastern OH but my heart is in WV | justcruzin - 2014-01-22 6:23 PM Very good friend of our family has a child with CMD. This child is 4 years old and severely handicapped. She is on a barrage of med's and when she is not medicated to the point of being somnolent she is fussy, has major muscle spasms, has no idea what is happening around her and is fed thru a feeding tube. She only sleeps when she is over medicated. Her life expediency is 6-10 years. This is her life. The mom wishes she would have done something different as they knew the child had this prior to birth. I had no suggestions for her, only prayers. But seeing her and knowing what the child and family are going thru, I tend to agree. Flame away.
I find myself feeling very torn by this statement. I have worked in the field of developmental disabled for 20 years now and I have worked with ALL levels of development. Some of the individuals have been as severely disabled as the child referred to here. One family, had THREE severely disabled boys (2 at home and one in a nursing home). I have to admit, as much as I love my job, I do find it hard sometimes to understand where a family gets their strength to give the care needed, day after day. However, I can say this almost all of them would not exchange their child/adult for anything. It is a bond and love that is very deep and true. I also fully believe God chooses very special people to handle these lives. As an additional care giver to these now adults, I have such a deep sense of caring for them that is hard to describe. We have one gentleman that is VERY loud and vocal almost all day and he can test even the most calm person. One particularly bad day for him, I brought him up to my office. Normally he would get more agitated at touch, but this time he allowed me to rub his shoulders, as I sang Amazing Grace. I still get teary eyed just thinking about the special time we had together for an hour. He humbled ME. HE was teaching and changing ME. Not every one can see the value of an individual who is totally dependent on others or who communicates very little, but God did give each of these special angels a very important role in life. It may not always be an clear one but if we take the time to look beyond the handicap, they will touch a person's life in a very special way no matter how small.
I have worked with more individuals than I can count over the years and I have so many fond memories! I am not here to say that everyday is perfect and I have had every emotion imagionable while working in this field. I most certainly love and care of some more than others, due to their personallities, but I can truthfully say, each and every individual has changed my life in some way.
I am NOT judging your friend, I have never been in her shoes and at the end of the day, I get to go home to my healthy children. I am also not flaming you. I just see a different side to this debate. He have a young couple at our church with a 4 month old baby that they were asked to abort several times. They were given the worst case senerios possible but they held strong to what they felt was right. The little girl is beyond beautiful even with her handicaps she is defying all the odds and is much healthier then any doctor ever thought she would be. Long story, but I am also wittnessing first hand how this little girl is changing her parent's life for the better. So maybe your friend perhapes wishes now that she had done something different but without a doubt in my mind, God placed that child in their lives for a reason. Perhaps even you yourself will never fully understand the reason but it is there. Please continue to pray for the family and thanks for being there to offer them support.
Edited by Rolling J 2014-01-23 10:36 PM
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Reflections....41 years since Rowe v Wade