trickster j - 2014-01-23 8:58 AM I'm the odd one out- I've seen alot of soundness issues with too much DFC- and bleeding as well.  Just me I guess.   



eta: if you notice the stallion ads- lots of non-DFC studs are promoted just because they have no DFC and are good outcrosses for DFC mares.

OregonBR - 2014-01-22 8:15 PM It wouldn't scare me a bit.  I bred this mare and she's the bomb.   http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/miss+judge+n+me



http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=xKGlnw0hYAo

Runnin < C > - 2014-01-23 8:10 AM  IMO the reason they are advertised as non-dfc and good outcrosses is because DFC blood is so prominent in our industry MOST of the horses DO go back to DFC.      Which also is the reason I dont agree with you saying a lot of DFC horses have soundness issues and bleed -- how close up is the DFC blood in these horses?  which DFC sons are they stemming from?  There are sooooooooooooo many dfc horses out there ... that dont bleed and are sound so I dont think its fair to blame it on DFC when hes probably no closer than the great granddad to the ones youre talking about.... JMO :)

trickster j - 2014-01-23 6:58 AM I'm the odd one out- I've seen alot of soundness issues with too much DFC- and bleeding as well.  Just me I guess.   



eta: if you notice the stallion ads- lots of non-DFC studs are promoted just because they have no DFC and are good outcrosses for DFC mares.

bowersk - 2014-01-23 8:41 AM Agree with RunninC, can't hardly have enough DFC. Exhibits A-F, all double bred DFC:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pyc+paint+your+wagon

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/first+moonflash

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/jet+black+patriot

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ivory+james

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/handsome+jack+flash2 (Triple Bred DFC & '13 All American Winner)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/one+dashing+eagle



 

OregonBR - 2014-01-23 10:34 AM Soundness and bleeding might (probably are) also be environmentally caused.  I had a bleeder.  She didn't have any DFC because she was born before DFC was.   

OregonBR - 2014-01-22 7:15 PM It wouldn't scare me a bit.  I bred this mare and she's the bomb.   http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/miss+judge+n+me



http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=xKGlnw0hYAo

trickster j - 2014-01-23 9:37 AM Actually- we can admit that bleeding has been in the equine world since the beginning of thier existence- just wasn't recognized til later- when all the double bred DFC's came around- lol, jk!  :) 

trickster j - 2014-01-23 9:44 AM Shawna?  Is that you?   

gypsy1997 - 2014-01-23 12:00 PM

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/credit+the+judge
Here is the pedigree on my double bred DFC. I have high hopes for her, she is just a 2 year old so we shall see.
 

OregonBR - 2014-01-23 10:48 AM That's absolutely ridiculous. 

It was around long before DFC and WAS recognized. I was around the track in the 60's. We had bleeders then too and we knew it.  The first bleeder that historians knew about was in the early colonial days. He was a TB.

Do you know how genetics works?  DFC was sound. DFC was not a bleeder. When you double up on good genes like that, you get a better chance of a horse that is similar to the in/linebred horse because there is more genetic material like his.   

OregonBR - 2014-01-23 10:50 AM Shawna trained her. I'm the breeder.  

trickster j - 2014-01-23 12:31 PM Ummm- that's why I said, "lol- jk."   



eta: and I do know how genetics work- if you have two healthy children with the same dad (DFC) but different mother, and those two have a child together, there is a chance that the child may not be as healthy as their grandpa.  :)  So I don't agree with your assumption about doubling up on healthy bloodlines- but I'm not going to call your thought process ridiculous either- it's just your opinion.  :)

OregonBR - 2014-01-23 3:04 PM Not really just my opinion. Inbreeding and linebreeding is how every single breed of animal within a species is created.  The recessives are culled out of the program and the "clean" individuals are kept in the program.  Ask anyone that breeds purebred cattle or ??? 

trickster j - 2014-01-23 3:05 PM So in your opinion, most everything produced by linebreeding is without fault? No because people don't want to cull the junk from their programs.  Just because Doc O Lena was great doesn't mean every grandget is great enough to breed.  You must be very trusting in these people doing the linebreeding to cull out the undesireables- in China they do that, but in America- not so much.  I've seen hideously looking stallions kept as studs and bred only because their pedigrees look great- also see alot of people breed mares with faults for the same reason.  Linebreeding may work if everyone has the same standards for what they are trying to achieve, and even in the best scenarios- you may not get what you thought you would.  Whether you line breed or not it doesn't mean the animals are good enough to breed and it doesn't mean a good animal will produce well when not bred to another of the same line.  Breeding a linebred individual does mean you are more likely to get whatever the horse has to give i.e. Linebred individuals tend to produce more consistant offspring.  Look at FG.  He is linebred and he sires very much alike offspring.  There are some things they all seem to get no matter what mare they are out of. 



eta: and actually, all I meant to do is answer the OP's question- I gave her my own thoughts and experience.  You are also free to give yours.  There is no need to spend your day trying to explain to me why my thoughts are wrong because they are not the same as yours- even if you did breed a cool horse, you aren't going to change my opinion, which, btw- is also shared by others, as seen in those who choose to breed to DFC outcross studs along with others I have discussed this very same topic with.  :) I was merely trying to add some insight into linebreeding.  There's a reason it's used just like any other thing. Without linebreeding there would be no hybrid vigor in two individuals who are linebred in themselves but not related.      

trickster j - 2014-01-23 7:13 PM OK, so I'm confused- I don't think Teehaha or OregonBR have the same definition for linebreeding that I do- this is mine:

Outcrossing vs. Linebreeding

In his classic college textbook, Horses and Horsemanship, Dr. M. E. Ensminger defines outcrossing as "... the mating of animals that are members of the same breed but which show no relationships close up in the pedigree."

 

SKIPPA STREAK	SKIP HI	SKIPPER'S LAD AQHA	SKIPPER W.
			MISS HELEN
		SKY HI	ADVANTAGE (TB)
			UNKNOWN
	CHEYENNE LIL	PAINT STALLION	UNKNOWN
			UNKNOWN
		THOROUGHBRED MARE	UNKNOWN
			UNKNOWN

 

Linebreeding, he explains, "... is the mating of animals... usually directed toward keeping the offspring closely related to some highly admired ancestor, such as half-brother and half-sister, female and grandsire, and cousins."

 

SKIP'S ARTIST	SKIPPA STREAK	SKIP HI	SKIPPER'S LAD AQHA
			SKY HI
		CHEYENNE LIL	PAINT STALLION
			THOROUGHBRED MARE
	SKIP'S AID	SKIP'S LAD	SKIP HI
			SKIP JOY AQHA
		SKIP SATIN	SKIP HI
			SATIN NICK AQHA

 eta: I just don't see the linebreeding in Frenchman's Guy, Sunfrost, or any of the other examples you gave me.  Can you explain your definition for linebreeding?  It's obviously different from mine- and maybe that's why we are not communicating that well-

OregonBR - 2014-01-23 8:31 PM The linebreeding is noted by the colored horse's names.  The same color is the same horse.  http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/frenchmans+guy