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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 653
  
Location: Quinlan, TX | Ok sorry if this ends up being kinda long.....
My younger sister was given a horse after her mare died from colic three years ago. There apparently was a verbal agreement that if she ever wanted to get rid of her that she had to go back to them. Well after she had the horse a year she moved in with me which is 4 hrs from where she was. The previous owners knew she was taking the horse with her when she moved. My sister started letting my 10 yr old son ride the horse and eventually they became quite the little pair (my son and the horse). So my sister messaged the previous owner and asked permission if the horse could have a new owner. Previous owner was excited and said yes that is perfectly fine. All we ask is that if they ever decide to get rid of her to let us know. SO I gave my sister some money for the horse that way she could buy another one. Ok so fast forward another year to this past weekend. My son decided he wants the horse to go to another kid to learn on like he did and he wants a step up horse. So I send the previous owners a message letting them know we are going to sell her to get him another horse (as they asked us to do). Now they are threatening to report the horse stolen and file a lawsuit against my sister and myself if we don't return the horse. I told them that I purchased the horse AFTER my sister got permission for the horse to have a new owner. But that they were more than welcome to come pick the horse up for the price I have listed her at. She kept on threatening at that point and told me I will be getting paperwork soon. I told her to do whatever she needed to do, but I find it hard to believe that she can file a stolen horse report if she willingly gave the horse away, and has known where the horse has been for the past three years. Please enlighten me if I am wrong. Just know that when my sister first got the horse she bucked and just flat out would fight constantly. After she moved with me I worked with her and the horse and found that she needed chiro work and a less aggressive bit and she has turned out to be a really nice kid safe horse. I feel that they gave the horse away due to her bucking and fighting and now that my 10 yr old has been riding her and she is worth something they want her back. I may be wrong.....so anyone that has been through this or even just your thoughs about it will help. Thanks!! Please no flaming.....I am just looking for advice on what to do.
Edited by chrissyfouse 2014-02-05 9:33 AM
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  Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
 
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | My opinion, from what I've read, is that the horse should go back to them as per the initial agreement. I don't think they want you making money off of a horse that they gave away with conditions. That's probably how they are looking at it. |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | LRQHS - 2014-01-27 8:38 AM
My opinion, from what I've read, is that the horse should go back to them as per the initial agreement. I don't think they want you making money off of a horse that they gave away with conditions. That's probably how they are looking at it.
agree |
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Addicted to Baseball
Location: Where the stars at night are big and bright, TX | You gave your sister money for the horse so she could buy another. You didn't buy it from the previous owner. Perhaps the owner was happy the horse was staying in the family she had entrusted the horse with and that's why she was agreeable. You selling it off to someone else is not the same thing. You and your sister should have been maintaining the horse, you're using it, the owner doesn't need to pay you back for the maintenance and care. You got the priviledge of using the horse, you maintain it's needs. I'd return the horse and suck it up, if you've never been in a position to have leased a horse or let someone borrow it then find the horse fell into the wrong hands, you'll never know what that feels like. I'd return the horse, and offer to put the new boy's family and the horse owner in touch with each other and see if they can work something out amongst themselves. |
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 Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | LRQHS - 2014-01-28 7:38 AM My opinion, from what I've read, is that the horse should go back to them as per the initial agreement. I don't think they want you making money off of a horse that they gave away with conditions. That's probably how they are looking at it.
Agree. They gave the horse with conditions and let your sister have a family member ride/keep it. This is more moral than legal. You knew the deal when you got involved with the horse, so did your sister. You shouldn't make agreements that you are not willing to keep. They gave the horse in good faith, give it back to them or continue to use it as was agreed. You and/or your sister have had use of it free for 3 years. If you made it better by riding it, well that is part of the deal. You shouldn't get involved in deals like this if you are not willing to follow through. JMHO |
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 Cute Little Imp
Posts: 2747
Location: N Texas | Tilt The Kilt - 2014-01-27 8:43 AM
You gave your sister money for the horse so she could buy another. You didn't buy it from the previous owner. Perhaps the owner was happy the horse was staying in the family she had entrusted the horse with and that's why she was agreeable. You selling it off to someone else is not the same thing. You and your sister should have been maintaining the horse, you're using it, the owner doesn't need to pay you back for the maintenance and care. You got the priviledge of using the horse, you maintain it's needs. I'd return the horse and suck it up, if you've never been in a position to have leased a horse or let someone borrow it then find the horse fell into the wrong hands, you'll never know what that feels like. I'd return the horse, and offer to put the new boy's family and the horse owner in touch with each other and see if they can work something out amongst themselves.
I agree with this. They were probably fine with you having the horse because it was still in the family. They probably assumed you were borrowing the horse, not purchasing it. I don't think it's right for you to make them pay for the horse when it was given to your sister for free. I sure as heck wouldn't want to buy my horse back when I gave it away for free. |
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 Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | Hollywood's Fan - 2014-01-27 8:45 AM LRQHS - 2014-01-28 7:38 AM My opinion, from what I've read, is that the horse should go back to them as per the initial agreement. I don't think they want you making money off of a horse that they gave away with conditions. That's probably how they are looking at it. Agree. They gave the horse with conditions and let your sister have a family member ride/keep it. This is more moral than legal. You knew the deal when you got involved with the horse, so did your sister. You shouldn't make agreements that you are not willing to keep. They gave the horse in good faith, give it back to them or continue to use it as was agreed. You and/or your sister have had use of it free for 3 years. If you made it better by riding it, well that is part of the deal. You shouldn't get involved in deals like this if you are not willing to follow through. JMHO
Edited by NJJ 2014-01-27 8:55 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 653
Location: Quinlan, TX | Ok let me re-phrase.....I was not aware that the horse was given to my sister with any conditions until this past weekend. I knew that the horse had been given to her after the death of her mare. Had I known that there where any conditions I would NOT have paid any money for this mare. Yes I am aware my sister should have let me know she was to be returned if she ever wanted to get rid of her......which is why she asked if my son could be her new owner. I do not want anyone thinking I do not follow through with conditiond I agree to......thats not the case. There has been a major lack of communication on my sisters part...... |
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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | chrissyfouse - 2014-01-27 9:00 AM Ok let me re-phrase.....I was not aware that the horse was given to my sister with any conditions until this past weekend. I knew that the horse had been given to her after the death of her mare. Had I known that there where any conditions I would NOT have paid any money for this mare. Yes I am aware my sister should have let me know she was to be returned if she ever wanted to get rid of her......which is why she asked if my son could be her new owner. I do not want anyone thinking I do not follow through with conditiond I agree to......thats not the case. There has been a major lack of communication on my sisters part......
Yep! Sounds like your sister never should have accepted money on a horse she did not own! |
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Cute Little Imp
Posts: 2747
Location: N Texas | chrissyfouse - 2014-01-27 9:00 AM
Ok let me re-phrase.....I was not aware that the horse was given to my sister with any conditions until this past weekend. I knew that the horse had been given to her after the death of her mare. Had I known that there where any conditions I would NOT have paid any money for this mare. Yes I am aware my sister should have let me know she was to be returned if she ever wanted to get rid of her......which is why she asked if my son could be her new owner. I do not want anyone thinking I do not follow through with conditiond I agree to......thats not the case. There has been a major lack of communication on my sisters part......
Then your sister needs to give you your money back, and the horse needs to go to the original owner. Not cool on your sister's part. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| Not trying to hijack, but I have a question that goes along with the topic.
My horse was given to me. I have "bill of sale" stating that the ownership is mine for $0 and I assume all liability and costs. It also states that if I ever want to sell him I give the previous owner right of first refusal. Does that mean right of first refusal for free since that's was I paid, or right of first refusal at list price? Since the bill clearly states I own the horse, not a lease situation.
I'm fairly certain the previous owner wouldn't want him back, but my concerns would be that he couldn't give him an adequate home since that's how I got him - looking like crap and needing groceries because the guy didn't feel like paying for feed and board.
Just curious how others would see that situation playing out.
To the OP: since it was verbal I'm not sure legally what the reprocussions would be as you've got possession and have been taking care of the mare. Morally I think perhaps you should send the horse back. I wouldn't want to spend a ton on court costs over a kids horse - there are others out there. |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | I would ask for your money back from your sister, but I'd also give the horse back to them
You know now what the story is... do the right thing, even if your sister didn't! |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | Gunner11 - 2014-01-27 9:02 AM chrissyfouse - 2014-01-27 9:00 AM Ok let me re-phrase.....I was not aware that the horse was given to my sister with any conditions until this past weekend. I knew that the horse had been given to her after the death of her mare. Had I known that there where any conditions I would NOT have paid any money for this mare. Yes I am aware my sister should have let me know she was to be returned if she ever wanted to get rid of her......which is why she asked if my son could be her new owner. I do not want anyone thinking I do not follow through with conditiond I agree to......thats not the case. There has been a major lack of communication on my sisters part...... Then your sister needs to give you your money back, and the horse needs to go to the original owner. Not cool on your sister's part.
^^^ This ^^^ |
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Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | Now that you know the story, you should give the horse back and deal with your sister.
I don't think that you have any reason to need Texas Equine Law. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 653
Location: Quinlan, TX | I really appreciate everyone's opinion's!! |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | chrissyfouse - 2014-01-27 9:18 AM
I really appreciate everyone's opinion's!!
Kind of a sucky situation your sis put you in
I'd be kicking her butt |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 653
Location: Quinlan, TX | barrelracr131 - 2014-01-27 8:20 AM chrissyfouse - 2014-01-27 9:18 AM I really appreciate everyone's opinion's!! Kind of a sucky situation your sis put you in I'd be kicking her butt
Yeah it is....but at the same time she was 18 and I should have asked more questions.....lesson learned tho. |
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| Why should they have to BUY back from anyone a horse that they GAVE away(loaned out actually) with conditions? That defies common sense and common decency. I'm appalled that anyone would even think that was right. These people were very clear about their end of the deal in being generous enough to let your sister have the horse and then share with your son....they've been beyond generous. Bucker or not, they could of gotten something for the horse probably...if he was that bad your sister or your son neither one of would of wanted him. So what that you paid your sister for the horse? Hasn't your son more than gotten your money's worth of enjoyment time with the horse? I say that because a horse that a child can ride and bond with is PRICELESS. Your wrong on how you are thinking about this and your wrong if you think you can post such a story as this and not get flamed. You need to do the right thing and not ask for support from board buddies to make you feel like you are doing the right thing....cause you're not. :(
You can deal with your sister as you see fit that's between you and her not the original owners. You're question should of been how to deal with your sister.
Edited by runs4fun 2014-01-27 3:46 PM
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | NJJ - 2014-01-27 8:54 AM Hollywood's Fan - 2014-01-27 8:45 AM LRQHS - 2014-01-28 7:38 AM My opinion, from what I've read, is that the horse should go back to them as per the initial agreement. I don't think they want you making money off of a horse that they gave away with conditions. That's probably how they are looking at it. Agree. They gave the horse with conditions and let your sister have a family member ride/keep it. This is more moral than legal. You knew the deal when you got involved with the horse, so did your sister. You shouldn't make agreements that you are not willing to keep. They gave the horse in good faith, give it back to them or continue to use it as was agreed. You and/or your sister have had use of it free for 3 years. If you made it better by riding it, well that is part of the deal. You shouldn't get involved in deals like this if you are not willing to follow through. JMHO
This^^^ I would give this horse back. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Think of it like this, if you loaned a car to someone and they refused to return it you can report it as stolen even though you know where the vehicle is. I agree, it should not have progressed to the point where they had to threaten to bring the law into it to get their horse back. Once the owners explained the situation to you, the horse should have been immediately returned. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 678
Location: Canada | I have to agree that the deal was your son could ride the horse but if it was to ever leave your family it had to go back to the original owners. I think you need to honor that agreement and return the horse free of charge.
Your sister had no right to sell a horse that wasn't hers to sell (she had no legal ownership of the horse) and I'd say the owners could pursue a Stolen horse claim if you tried to sell it. Whether anything comes of the claim or not is another matter but why risk the hassle. Send the horse back and talk to your sister. If she can return the money great, if she can't maybe you can work out a deal where she works it off for you (doing chores or riding horses) or you can write it off as just a learning experience and be thankful you had a great horse for your son to ride and learn on.
If you're really stuck for money for another horse - Another option is, and it may be too late depending on how angry the original owners are, is to send them a nice email or call and say that you now are aware of the previous agreement and are very sorry for the confusion as you weren't aware of the deal your sister had made. Explain that you appreciate the use of the horse and thank them for allowing your son to learn to ride on him. Find out what they want the horse for. If he's going to just be a pet and they really have no use for him you can explain that you have put a lot of time and effort into schooling the horse and see if they'd be willing to allow you to sell the horse to an approved home where he will be used and you'd split the proceeds of the sale 50/50, 60/40 or whatever they see fit. They may tell you to stuff it or it may peak their interest if they aren't interested in feeding him right now.
The problem with first right of refusal is that it's never clarified if the horse is to be offered back at the original price or the adjusted price. If you own a horse, and provide the previous owners with first right of refusal, if the horse is injured and only pasture sound and you offer to sell it at a reduced price or give it away likely the previous owners don't want the horse back.
If you take that same horse (for arguments sake $1000 horse) and make is something spectacular and decide to sell many previous owners want that horse back at the original $1000 selling price. This isn't always true but it seems to be more true then not.
I hope the situation works out and I'm sorry you got caught in the cross-fire.
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 Cyber World Challenged
Posts: 2526
Location: My Own Little World | The deal was that you give the horse back not sell it. You made a choice to GIVE your sister money when she needed another horse because the same deal existed then. You are using a horse LOANED to you. It is not yours to sell! The money you gave your sister was a GIFT, not to purchase the horse from her.....it was not hers to sell. I had this nearly happen to me and I'm telling you that situations like this make good hearted people not want to help out anymore......because we get screwed! |
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Cyber World Challenged
Posts: 2526
Location: My Own Little World | So, I just read the whole thread. If you pursue legal action, I'm thinking your sister will be the one to be in the hot seat when it comes to a court of law. Ask the ORIGINAL owner what they would like to do. I'll bet they are great people and just want what's best for the horse and the kids |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | While this has equine related questions in it, this issue is really about basic contract law in Texas. Per the original agreement, the horse was allowed to be in the care of your sister under certain conditions. When those conditions changed, the parties reworked the contract so-to-speak to allow for a modification. You are now wanting to change the terms from the original agreement and the other side is unwilling. If you continue on with your plans to sell this horse or not give it back to the original owners, you'd be in breach of the original contract and liable for any damages incurred (cost of getting the horse back, etc.).
As it stands, I do not believe that the original owners can file a theft charge on you just based upon the terms of the contract changing or wanting to be changed. It's more of a civil matter on how you guys will proceed. Now if you sell the horse knowning that ownership and your ability to do so is shaky, you could find yourself both liable under criminal and civil law for selling property that was not yours to sell.
My best advice would be to return the horse to the original owners as soon as you can. As posted above, you may be able to provide them with contact information on other families who might want to lease or purchase the horse. On a worst case scenerio, you don't want this horse in your possession if he ends up sick or hurt after this type of fighting has been going on. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 653
Location: Quinlan, TX | Thank you all so much for your input in this very ugly situation. I will be contacting the previous owners this evening to discuss all options. I don't want this to get any worse than it already has. Thats not the kind of person I am. I want to do whats right and I want my sister to learn from this as well. I will update to let you all know how this turns out. Thanks to those of you who gave me good solid advice without being mean and hateful as I was kinda caught in the middle of this unintentionally. |
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Pig-Bear Dog Lover
| It sounds like the agreement was that the horse was NOT to be sold, THAT was the agreement... they wanted the horse back at no charge if she was to be rehomed at all, for a fee or otherwise. It doesn't matter that you are asking money for the horse, they wanted the horse back when you are through with her they made that clear. The horse should go back to previous owners. this whole thing make me upset and I'm not even the original owner! bottom line is you now KNOW the situation.. do the right thing. ETA it sounds like you knew the deal if you knew your sister had to call and ASK PERMISSION to give your son the horse, so when you GOT the horse you KNEW it had to be returned.. idk .. seems fishy to me.
Edited by SwishMiss 2014-01-27 4:56 PM
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 Member
Posts: 37
| The big question is, who legally owns the horse? Do you have a brand inspection on said horse? If so the horse is yours pure and simple. Now is it right morally to sell the horse? Maybe, maybe not. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 600
Location: Oklahoma & Texas | It all comes down to who really owns the horse...sounds like those people do...she wasnt you sisters to sell and therefore isnt yours to sell...sounds more like an agreement to which in return for feeding and caring for the horse your sister and now you have been allowed to use the horse but if neither of you ever recieved a bill of sale or reg papers on the horse then you really dont own the horse...selling a horse you dont own could turn ugly in iteelf and bring about charges all its own...I'd give the horse back...sounds like the deal has gone south for all involved. |
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Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | chrissyfouse - 2014-01-28 8:00 AM Ok let me re-phrase.....I was not aware that the horse was given to my sister with any conditions until this past weekend. I knew that the horse had been given to her after the death of her mare. Had I known that there where any conditions I would NOT have paid any money for this mare. Yes I am aware my sister should have let me know she was to be returned if she ever wanted to get rid of her......which is why she asked if my son could be her new owner. I do not want anyone thinking I do not follow through with conditiond I agree to......thats not the case. There has been a major lack of communication on my sisters part......
Then you need to take that up with your sister. SHE is the one who sold a horse that she had no right to sell.. That is called FRAUD. You should do the right thing and either use the horse (keep it) or give it back to the people. Get your money back from your sister, but don't try and make these folks pay for a horse they gave in good faith. |
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| zerotlperformancehor - 2014-01-27 5:03 PM
The big question is, who legally owns the horse? Do you have a brand inspection on said horse? If so the horse is yours pure and simple. Now is it right morally to sell the horse? Maybe, maybe not.
Not every state has or requires brand inspections. |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| chrissyfouse - 2014-01-27 3:23 PM Thank you all so much for your input in this very ugly situation. I will be contacting the previous owners this evening to discuss all options. I don't want this to get any worse than it already has. Thats not the kind of person I am. I want to do whats right and I want my sister to learn from this as well. I will update to let you all know how this turns out. Thanks to those of you who gave me good solid advice without being mean and hateful as I was kinda caught in the middle of this unintentionally.
I guess I missed the part that leads you to think there are other options then returning the horse. I understand you bought a horse that was not for sale, have time invested in him but you also undestood the owner wanted to know where his horse was and have him returned to him when your sister or you no longer wanted him. I don't understand how you can justify wanting the owner to buy back a horse they never sold in the first place. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1969
Location: Texas | GIVE them their horse back and be frustrated at yourself and your sister. JMO |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 653
Location: Quinlan, TX | rodeomom3 - 2014-01-27 5:36 PM chrissyfouse - 2014-01-27 3:23 PM Thank you all so much for your input in this very ugly situation. I will be contacting the previous owners this evening to discuss all options. I don't want this to get any worse than it already has. Thats not the kind of person I am. I want to do whats right and I want my sister to learn from this as well. I will update to let you all know how this turns out. Thanks to those of you who gave me good solid advice without being mean and hateful as I was kinda caught in the middle of this unintentionally. I guess I missed the part that leads you to think there are other options then returning the horse. I understand you bought a horse that was not for sale, have time invested in him but you also undestood the owner wanted to know where his horse was and have him returned to him when your sister or you no longer wanted him. I don't understand how you can justify wanting the owner to buy back a horse they never sold in the first place.
When I said all options....I meant in getting the horse back to them if thats what they wanted. Right now I can't make the 8+ hr round trip to return the horse to them due to work. I did talk to the previos owners last night and we had a very nice respectful conversation. I am willing to keep the horse if they can't or don't want to come get her and NOT sell her if thats what they want. I can figure out another way to get my son another horse if needed. In the mean time he still loves her and he will keep riding her. And despite who thinks this sounds fishy or those of you who think that I KNEW the original conditions between them and my sister.....I DID NOT. Not until this past weekend and now that I have talked to both my sister and the original owners I know the entire story and I AM WILLING to give the horse back and take what money I spend on the horse up with my sister. I even offered to help with fuel for them to come pick her up if needed since this was no way their fault. Im trying to make things right the best way I can. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 653
Location: Quinlan, TX | SwishMiss - 2014-01-27 3:35 PM It sounds like the agreement was that the horse was NOT to be sold, THAT was the agreement... they wanted the horse back at no charge if she was to be rehomed at all, for a fee or otherwise. It doesn't matter that you are asking money for the horse, they wanted the horse back when you are through with her they made that clear. The horse should go back to previous owners. this whole thing make me upset and I'm not even the original owner! bottom line is you now KNOW the situation.. do the right thing. ETA it sounds like you knew the deal if you knew your sister had to call and ASK PERMISSION to give your son the horse, so when you GOT the horse you KNEW it had to be returned.. idk .. seems fishy to me.
I knew they wanted to know where the horse was.....NOT that my sister needed permission to give her to my son. And the only thing that they asked of me was to let them know if I ever decided to get rid of her. But regardless now I am resolving the issue and have talked with the previous owners and we are taking care of it. When I originally posted this I had not talked with the previous owners personally. As of last night I have and now have both sides of the story and Im trying to do what is right. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 653
Location: Quinlan, TX | Sooooooooo.......
Original owners came up on Sunday and picked the mare up. They were really excited to have her back since she was born and raised on their place. Also told my son that when he goes for the summer to his grandparents house he can come ride her anytime!! I feel horrible that it started out so bad, but we ended on a good note. And now my sister is having to pay me back the money I gave her for the mare. Lesson learned I hope!! Anyhow.....hope everyone has a fabulous week.....Its HUMP Day!! |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest |  |
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| That is very good news. The original owners have their mare back, they sound like very nice and generous people. You get to live with the knowledge that you did the right thing. Your son gets to know that he will get to see and ride the mare again. Everyone has learned a valuable lesson and all's well that ends well.
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Cute Little Imp
Posts: 2747
Location: N Texas | Thanks for the update!! Glad everything got resolved! |
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Shelter Dog Lover
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | I'm glad it all worked out! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 319
| Glad it all worked out. |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Sounds like a happy ending  , Glad that you did the right thing, hugs to you  |
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 Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | And your son learned a valuable life lesson watching you do the right thing! |
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**Update pg 2**Needing advice from someone who knows Texas Equine laws....