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 Expert
Posts: 2097
 
Location: Deep South | Typically, I am incredibly ANTI-shortcut anything. Do it right the first time, you won't have to redo it. Especially when it comes to putting a handle on a horse. I am anal about having all the bells and whistles of a super nice foundation before ever seeing a pattern.
But, say you have a horse that you've rode enough to know, for sure, that the 1D or even 2D potential is not there. At best horse will be 3D in the youth or smaller shows and likely 4D in open at bigger events. Horse just isn't that athletically inclined, but could be a great local show horse, playday, or kid mount, great disposition for it and yada yada yada.
Now, knowing the clientele that buys this type of horse, do you bother putting a fancy handle on it? Or do you just get it patterned and as absolutely user friendly as possible?
Hope I'm making sense. | |
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![](<a href="http://s1191.photobucket.com/albums/z470/alicat0909/?action=view¤t=yellaandcalf.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1191.photobu) Heeler Hater
Posts: 3014
Location: Texas | Nope. Generally speaking people who want to run locally dont need a horse with a ton of buttons. Just make sure they stop, turn around, and are gentle. Nothing super fancy.
I dont want them to get scared because they ask their horse to do something and it does it quickly and correct. Most people can't ride a horse that will spin a hole in the ground or slide to a stop. But i also give free tune ups on all horses that pass through my doors as well.
Edited by Alicat0909 2014-01-31 3:13 PM
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
  
Location: Florida.. | I do not know about the barrelracing trainers. This is a interesting question.. We with our warmbloods will recognize if horse will be a professionals or a low level amatuers within a reasonable time.. we never shortcut but train the horse accordingly to have all the basic foundations and all the ability to do what he is capable of. But .. we make them user friendly. not so sensitive so therefore when a amatuer rides the horse is more forgiving and not so sensitive. has the buttons and the ability and knowledge. we will put a few grooms on them in lessons so horse is accustomed to being rode differant ways. we price the horse as a AM whether that be Adult or Youngrider.. and also will say the abilitys of the horse.. and give a honest description . usually when riders are interested they know what they are wanting to do in their riding and program and we try to pair horses that would fit them well. | |
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 Cute Little Imp
Posts: 2747
Location: N Texas | I think it would depend on if you're training to re-sell, or traning for a client. If it's for a client, then train the way they want. For a re-sell, I would think it would be worth more if it had more buttons, but like you said, if it's not going to be a top competitor, the rider may not even know what to do with the buttons.
I had a horse once that I sent to the trainer and told them "this is going to be a kid's horse, don't do any fancy training!" Turns out the horse didn't work out anyway, but I didn't want him knowing how to do things that the rider couldn't cue him to do.
While you do want to put out a quality product, it's hard to do that knowing those skills may never be put to use. | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I had a horse who I assumed would be a nice 4D horse for my mom. he was green broke when we got him. I trained him thinking he would top out in the 3D but was going to run him for a year just to my mom would get on him. Turned out to be one of the fastest, most talented horses I'd ever been on. Nothing about him screamed 1D HORSE! But he sure was. Glad I didn't short cut anything on him because I thought he would be slow. Perhaps thats why he was so good at his job and clocked.
I wouldn't short cut anything. I think the more skills a horse has, the more ability you will give it on the pattern. On the other hand- if you really get that horse working nice and he just happens to not clock, you've made a really well broke, easy to run horse for someone to enjoy. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Depends on what your extra buttons are. Myself I don't care if the horse doesn't have the potential to be a 1d horse, it is easier for me to pattern a horse with the buttons then without.
I would rather have the 3-4d horse safer and better broke then the 1d horse, as this type of horse may go to a beginner level rider who will also use the horse for other things, 4h, English, gymkhana, trail rides.
But there are different types of broke, the 3-4d horse I would rather have ranch broke, then reining broke. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 141
Location: College Station, TX | I do not. I try to make them as user friendly as possible. I used to and was stuck with one for a lot longer than I wanted to be because the level of riders who were trying him could not ride him correctly, and he would scare them by reacting too quickly because their cues were not subtle enough, or by doing something they didn't realize they were giving him a cue for. He was my only horse at the time and I couldn't afford to buy another until he sold, so I missed out on quite a few I wanted waiting for him to sell. He would have been a great youth horse if they could have handled all his buttons, just as laid back as can be. Finally an older woman who was wanting a nice 4D horse to play on came along and rode him perfectly. There were way too many that couldn't before she came along though so I was pretty frustrated by the time she got there and decided then I wouldn't do that again. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 902
Location: Qld Australia | Never
An honest to goodness broke 3D horse is worth it's weight in gold. Why shortcut anything, the end product will not be worth what you want for it. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | casualdust07 - 2014-01-31 3:49 PM I had a horse who I assumed would be a nice 4D horse for my mom. he was green broke when we got him. I trained him thinking he would top out in the 3D but was going to run him for a year just to my mom would get on him. Turned out to be one of the fastest, most talented horses I'd ever been on. Nothing about him screamed 1D HORSE! But he sure was. Glad I didn't short cut anything on him because I thought he would be slow. Perhaps thats why he was so good at his job and clocked. I wouldn't short cut anything. I think the more skills a horse has, the more ability you will give it on the pattern. On the other hand- if you really get that horse working nice and he just happens to not clock, you've made a really well broke, easy to run horse for someone to enjoy.
I had one of those too. Nobody thought he would be any kind of great barrel horse and I actually only patterned him for my sister to play with. And yep, I skipped some stuff to make him more user friendly. When I figured out what I had, I went back and fixed the holes. He was so kind and forgiving, it wasn't hard at all. He quickly made a 1D horse and just got better and better over time until an injury ended his career 10 years later.
To the OP, it sounds like you've spent enough time with this horse to *know* he hasn't got "it", right? I would make him as point and kick as possible.
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Here's a question- don't you want all barrel horses to be as user friendly as possible? I can't stand a horse that will win a barrel race but I have to do X, Y, and Z at each barrel and in between and this and that with my hands and if I think the wrong thing we'll mess up.
My goal is to make all my horses "point and kick" where I do as little as possible. What buttons are we talking about eliminating?
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Expert
Posts: 1815
| I think I get what you're saying........a novice rider is not going to have the skill set to know how to maintain a lot of bells and whistles, so my idea would be to get the horse "safe broke".........used to all kinds of flap, good whoa, and reins either directly or neck reins........a well trained horse will only be frustrated and confused by receiving a bunch of cues the rider doesn't even know he's giving............ | |
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Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | Talkeetnababe - 2014-01-31 4:28 PM
I do not. I try to make them as user friendly as possible. I used to and was stuck with one for a lot longer than I wanted to be because the level of riders who were trying him could not ride him correctly, and he would scare them by reacting too quickly because their cues were not subtle enough, or by doing something they didn't realize they were giving him a cue for. He was my only horse at the time and I couldn't afford to buy another until he sold, so I missed out on quite a few I wanted waiting for him to sell. He would have been a great youth horse if they could have handled all his buttons, just as laid back as can be. Finally an older woman who was wanting a nice 4D horse to play on came along and rode him perfectly. There were way too many that couldn't before she came along though so I was pretty frustrated by the time she got there and decided then I wouldn't do that again.
Your and Alicat's responses were kinda what I was afraid of happening, if I got her too broke.
To clarify what I mean by shortcut, I'm not talking about the basics. Every horse that comes through my place, generally within the first 30 rides are giving their face at a stand still walk trot and lope, breaking at the poll at a stop and when backing up, easy to back up, side passing, loping circles on the correct leads, rolling over their hocks, will travel on a loose rein, move their shoulders, and have a great stop. These are basics to me.
I think cheryl put it best when she said she'd rather have them ranch broke rather than reining horse broke.
My personal barrel horse can do so much more than the above mentioned "basics," he is what I consider fancy broke, and I would by no means put a beginner rider or young child on him. He would be "too" light and responsive, he doesn't 'neck rein' you can't just gather your reins up in one hand like a rope horse and direct him anywhere. If they were trotting/loping him and just pulled straight back with two hands, he would probably just hide his face, not stop, he drags his butt on seat and voice cues.
With this in mind, do I keep producing the best horse I can, or do I cater to what I think will be the buyer's abilities in this particular market? Even though "Shortcutting" (Starting to regret using that word) may hinder some of the horse's ability on the barrel pattern than if it had a superb foundation. | |
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| I understand what you're asking. As a full-time trainer, I have run into this problem quite a bit. I like having a horse light and responding to a slight move of the hand, or a little bump of your foot. I strive to not create a horse that must be "pulled" around the pattern. But, the average weekend rider will cue that horse to do things that she doesn't even know she is cueing for, and the result is a frustrated horse and rider. I have thought this over quite a bit, and have decided that I want to continue making really broke horses, because in the right hands, that horse will clock much faster than one without the buttons. If the rider needs to improve, I will help that person as much as they will allow me to. I feel like having horses broke is the most correct way to train; therefore, I just hope that the horse's eventual rider/owner will get the feel of how a horse is "supposed" to work, and will have the motivation to continue to improve her horsemanship skills.
Edited by jenagarwood 2014-01-31 5:55 PM
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Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | jenagarwood - 2014-01-31 5:54 PM
I understand what you're asking. As a full-time trainer, I have run into this problem quite a bit. I like having a horse light and responding to a slight move of the hand, or a little bump of your foot. I strive to not create a horse that must be "pulled" around the pattern. But, the average weekend rider will cue that horse to do things that she doesn't even know she is cueing for, and the result is a frustrated horse and rider. I have thought this over quite a bit, and have decided that I want to continue making really broke horses, because in the right hands, that horse will clock much faster than one without the buttons. If the rider needs to improve, I will help that person as much as they will allow me to. I feel like having horses broke is the most correct way to train; therefore, I just hope that the horse's eventual rider/owner will get the feel of how a horse is "supposed" to work, and will have the motivation to continue to improve her horsemanship skills.
Thank you for your response. This is the dilemma I'm struggling with.
Do you ever worry that the new owner will not be motivated to improve their horsemanship skills, thereby being a poor reflection on the horse you have trained, and that the horse may have been 'rode better' (for a lack of a better term) if it was kind of umm 'dumbed down' in it's training to suit the rider (again for a lack of a better term)? Maybe less responsive is better.
I'm not great with putting my thoughts into words, but I am trying to see well enough from both sides of this, the buyer and the trainer, to see what would work best for me.
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 Member
Posts: 48
| I think one thing you guys are forgetting is the 3d/4d barrel horses are generally stepping stones. Get as fancy as you want. Your setting up a horse to teach someone what a really broke horse feels like, also your setting yourself up for a repeat customer and one wonderful word of mouth. Most people don't know what fancy broke is, but that doesn't mean they can't figure it out. Just be selective who you sell to. A good horse can make a good horseman. And down the road if something happens or they decide they no longer want to compete they have a broke horse for any discipline. | |
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| BamaCanChaser - 2014-01-31 6:19 PM
jenagarwood - 2014-01-31 5:54 PM
I understand what you're asking. As a full-time trainer, I have run into this problem quite a bit. I like having a horse light and responding to a slight move of the hand, or a little bump of your foot. I strive to not create a horse that must be "pulled" around the pattern. But, the average weekend rider will cue that horse to do things that she doesn't even know she is cueing for, and the result is a frustrated horse and rider. I have thought this over quite a bit, and have decided that I want to continue making really broke horses, because in the right hands, that horse will clock much faster than one without the buttons. If the rider needs to improve, I will help that person as much as they will allow me to. I feel like having horses broke is the most correct way to train; therefore, I just hope that the horse's eventual rider/owner will get the feel of how a horse is "supposed" to work, and will have the motivation to continue to improve her horsemanship skills.
Thank you for your response. This is the dilemma I'm struggling with.
Do you ever worry that the new owner will not be motivated to improve their horsemanship skills, thereby being a poor reflection on the horse you have trained, and that the horse may have been 'rode better' (for a lack of a better term ) if it was kind of umm 'dumbed down' in it's training to suit the rider (again for a lack of a better term )? Maybe less responsive is better.
I'm not great with putting my thoughts into words, but I am trying to see well enough from both sides of this, the buyer and the trainer, to see what would work best for me.
Yes, I understand what you're saying exactly. If the rider doesn't want to improve to match the horse, or can't for whatever reason, eventually the horse will adapt to fit the rider, in most cases, if the rider sticks with it long enough. I guess I've just decided that I believe in making the horse as good as it can be; and for me personally, I need it broke and responsive to do that. So, I just feel it's the "right" thing to do. I just believe in fundamentals, and I'm more "at peace" with my training when I know I'm doing things "right." However, if someone specifically asked me to train it a certain way...I am more than happy to try to do it in a way that would fit them better. As far as the horse being a reflection of the trainer--I do wonder how much and for how long that carries into the next rider. I think most people understand that most horses are only as good as their riders. But, I figure if the horses I'm running and riding are performing to the best of their ability and always improving, that is the best reflection of me, and people will see that. | |
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| TerRNeh - 2014-01-31 6:26 PM
I think one thing you guys are forgetting is the 3d/4d barrel horses are generally stepping stones. Get as fancy as you want. Your setting up a horse to teach someone what a really broke horse feels like, also your setting yourself up for a repeat customer and one wonderful word of mouth. Most people don't know what fancy broke is, but that doesn't mean they can't figure it out. Just be selective who you sell to. A good horse can make a good horseman. And down the road if something happens or they decide they no longer want to compete they have a broke horse for any discipline.
This is what I hope for--that someone who has never had a broke horse before, will step on a broke horse, and realize that you don't/shouldn't have to push and pull. It makes for a better experience for the horse and the rider in the end, if both are well-educated.
Edited by jenagarwood 2014-01-31 6:43 PM
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Granted I don't train for a living, but I have the same goals regardless of talent and I guess that's the luxury of not depending on training for a living because I'm sure it would have to be different, especially if you're training for a specific discipline.
I want to get them as broke and as advanced as I possibly can. That way they can do more than just one discipline. They may not make a great barrel horse but they may make a good reiner or a good sorting horse, etc.
Plus, I just like seeing how far along they can get. | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | I don't get any of my horses "fancy" broke. They all walk, trot, lope, back softly and move laterally. Those who have been around long enough counter-canter circles and perform other advanced movements, as they develop the required strength. That having been said , my horses don't slide, spin, do true rollbacks, or anything of the sort. I don't train those movements for a number of reasons. Firstly, I don't think that they benefit a barrel horse. I want my horses moving forward and free at all times. Secondly, I don't want my horses responding to an inadvertent cue during a run. When I make one, they should go in doing their job and not be frazzled by a rider who sticks a heel in the wrong place, or pulls on their face a bit leaving a barrel.
All of that having been said, I have taken several horses whom I felt had limited ability further than I thought capable. I do that by demanding that they use every ounce of impulsion and athleticism that they do have. I dig deeper on the less talented horses than I will the nice ones at an earlier stage. Some of them have to be at their best to be respectable. Those are the ones that I will be a bit more demanding of. I don't want to sour one, but they have to know that the alley means work. The ones who are going to be superstars can get away with "playing" a bit early on. | |
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Blessed 
Location: Here | Fairweather - 2014-01-31 8:25 PM
Granted I don't train for a living, but I have the same goals regardless of talent and I guess that's the luxury of not depending on training for a living because I'm sure it would have to be different, especially if you're training for a specific discipline.
I want to get them as broke and as advanced as I possibly can. That way they can do more than just one discipline. They may not make a great barrel horse but they may make a good reiner or a good sorting horse, etc.
Plus, I just like seeing how far along they can get.
Me too.
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 Living on the edge of common sense
Posts: 24138
Location: Carpenter, WY | WrapSnap - 2014-01-31 6:48 PM I don't get any of my horses "fancy" broke. They all walk, trot, lope, back softly and move laterally. Those who have been around long enough counter-canter circles and perform other advanced movements, as they develop the required strength. That having been said , my horses don't slide, spin, do true rollbacks, or anything of the sort. I don't train those movements for a number of reasons. Firstly, I don't think that they benefit a barrel horse. I want my horses moving forward and free at all times. Secondly, I don't want my horses responding to an inadvertent cue during a run. When I make one, they should go in doing their job and not be frazzled by a rider who sticks a heel in the wrong place, or pulls on their face a bit leaving a barrel. All of that having been said, I have taken several horses whom I felt had limited ability further than I thought capable. I do that by demanding that they use every ounce of impulsion and athleticism that they do have. I dig deeper on the less talented horses than I will the nice ones at an earlier stage. Some of them have to be at their best to be respectable. Those are the ones that I will be a bit more demanding of. I don't want to sour one, but they have to know that the alley means work. The ones who are going to be superstars can get away with "playing" a bit early on. I like this answer . I kind of feel like a good trainer with horsemanship is going to bring out the best in a colt whether or not it's the sharpest stick in the pile or the most athletic thing around, As a owner paying your bill I would expect you to do your best with my colt and not take any shortcuts. If I send one out to be started I want someone to put a good foundation on them because it's going to stick with them all of their lives for whatever they end up doing.
Edited by teehaha 2014-01-31 9:07 PM
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | teehaha - 2014-01-31 9:02 PM
WrapSnap - 2014-01-31 6:48 PM I don't get any of my horses "fancy" broke. They all walk, trot, lope, back softly and move laterally. Those who have been around long enough counter-canter circles and perform other advanced movements, as they develop the required strength. That having been said , my horses don't slide, spin, do true rollbacks, or anything of the sort. I don't train those movements for a number of reasons. Firstly, I don't think that they benefit a barrel horse. I want my horses moving forward and free at all times. Secondly, I don't want my horses responding to an inadvertent cue during a run. When I make one, they should go in doing their job and not be frazzled by a rider who sticks a heel in the wrong place, or pulls on their face a bit leaving a barrel. All of that having been said, I have taken several horses whom I felt had limited ability further than I thought capable. I do that by demanding that they use every ounce of impulsion and athleticism that they do have. I dig deeper on the less talented horses than I will the nice ones at an earlier stage. Some of them have to be at their best to be respectable. Those are the ones that I will be a bit more demanding of. I don't want to sour one, but they have to know that the alley means work. The ones who are going to be superstars can get away with "playing" a bit early on. I like this answer. I kind of feel like a good trainer with horsemanship is going to bring out the best in a colt whether or not it's the sharpest stick in the pile or the most athletic thing around, As a owner paying your bill I would expect you to do your best with my colt and not take any shortcuts. If I send one out to be started I want someone to put a good foundation on them because it's going to stick with them all of their lives for whatever they end up doing.
I agree with both of these statements! I too don't get mine fancy broke. Mine don't spin, and they will roll back off a fence. They know their leads, gait transitions, move off my legs and off my hands. Like WrapSnap said, as they stick around and their training progressing, they pick up the counter arcing and counter cantering as needed on the pattern. I train them for barrel racing, so the cues I need during the run are the ones I focus on- namely- UP IS GO AND SIT IS WHOA. When I raise up they move forward, when I sit down they shorten stride. When I put leg in- they move over. They all have a light handle, and they can turn a barrel. I don't want them so behind the bit that they don't run. I feel my horses are pretty easy to jump on and run. | |
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Trainers.... Do you shortcut "less athletic" horses?