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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 422
Location: Fort Bragg North Carolina | Is it possible to find breeders that consider (proven) mares without papers? Not junk stallions but nice barrel producers. Just a thought dont know much about it figured someone on here would! | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
| You would have to call and ask, I myself would save the money from the std fee and buy a registered colt, but then again I won't buy grade. | |
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Pig-Bear Dog Lover
 
| I think a lot would. Your paying the fee. Unless you wanted to breed to clayton or something. I have a grade mare I'd love to breed. | |
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| I have bred grade mares to my guy over the years, and am seriously considering breeding two appendixes which will give me a grade. I am into proven performace as well as bloodlines. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | Depends on what you want to do with the foal. If it is to keep no matter what, then just call and ask. But if the resulting foal will possibly be sold, I wouldn't do it | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 617
| I'd just ask! You many get denied by a bunch, but someone out there with an awesome stud I'm sure would make an exception. I'm guessing your breeding for yourself?
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 617
| kmcsunshine - 2014-02-09 7:49 AM
I have bred grade mares to my guy over the years, and am seriously considering breeding two appendixes which will give me a grade. I am into proven performace as well as bloodlines.
I like a good set of papers....like others I think I've become to wrapped around what it says on paper. Proven is key though. Since the dam does play such a huge roll, a proven mare should be more important than a broodie with a good set of lines that such sits and eats. Although, that is not how the industry is. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 928
Location: Bigfoot Country | Check out the HalfQuarterHorseRegistry.com (I think that's the link?) Anyway, if just ONE of the parents is AQHA they will register the foal and Future Fortunes and the other programs will recognize it. I bred my grade mare to a nice stud and they registered the baby no problem. So now she is eligible for all the incentive programs!! Yay! | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2276
Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | I would just call and ask. I would love to breed my grade mare someday. But just because I like her, doesn't mean I will like her baby and I'm not I want to take the chance of not being able to sell it or for dirt cheap just because it can't be registered. I agree that it definitely depends on what you would use it for and think about if your willing to take in another grade. | |
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Fire Ant Peddler
Posts: 2881
| If you breed to a quality stallion the stud fee and costs for breeding will be way more than you can ever sell the offspring for. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 615
Location: Wyoming | Honeymoney - 2014-02-09 1:19 PM
If you breed to a quality stallion the stud fee and costs for breeding will be way more than you can ever sell the offspring for.
Not always true. Molly Powell has sold unregistered babies out of her grade mare Pecan for a lot of money! | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| perfectturns - 2014-02-09 2:08 PM
Honeymoney - 2014-02-09 1:19 PM
If you breed to a quality stallion the stud fee and costs for breeding will be way more than you can ever sell the offspring for.
Not always true. Molly Powell has sold unregistered babies out of her grade mare Pecan for a lot of money!
What type of paperwork went with the foals, and how many resold and how did they prove the horse was a descendent of pecan? And was the resale value still high?
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Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| cn1705 - 2014-02-09 10:13 AM kmcsunshine - 2014-02-09 7:49 AM I have bred grade mares to my guy over the years, and am seriously considering breeding two appendixes which will give me a grade. I am into proven performace as well as bloodlines. I like a good set of papers....like others I think I've become to wrapped around what it says on paper. Proven is key though. Since the dam does play such a huge roll, a proven mare should be more important than a broodie with a good set of lines that such sits and eats. Although, that is not how the industry is.
I love genetics. I love matching up lines that compliment each other. However, especially in these days of shipped semen, I think bloodlines are often the be all and end all and not enough thought is put into basics such as straight legs, disposition and performance.............many are breeding to stallions soley on bloodline and have no idea what the horse really looks like or how he behaves. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 617
| kmcsunshine - 2014-02-09 4:25 PM
cn1705 - 2014-02-09 10:13 AM kmcsunshine - 2014-02-09 7:49 AM I have bred grade mares to my guy over the years, and am seriously considering breeding two appendixes which will give me a grade. I am into proven performace as well as bloodlines. I like a good set of papers....like others I think I've become to wrapped around what it says on paper. Proven is key though. Since the dam does play such a huge roll, a proven mare should be more important than a broodie with a good set of lines that such sits and eats. Although, that is not how the industry is.
I couldn't agree more. Not to mention, just because a horse is bred up the wazoo doesn't guarantee anything. I've seen some REALLY well bred horses in all disciplines that are cooky OR can't do what their "suppose" to be bred for. At the end of the day being bred amazing increases the chances of doing well, but we have gotten way to caught up in that piece of paper. Seems kind of silly
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  Living on the edge of common sense
Posts: 24139
Location: Carpenter, WY | I've got this grade baby due in April and am super excited about it!! My old grulla mare is grade and we bred Slim to one of her beautiful buckskin daughters http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/fine+fittin+jeans
Edited by teehaha 2014-02-09 5:40 PM
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Fire Ant Peddler
Posts: 2881
| perfectturns - 2014-02-09 2:08 PM
Honeymoney - 2014-02-09 1:19 PM
If you breed to a quality stallion the stud fee and costs for breeding will be way more than you can ever sell the offspring for.
Not always true. Molly Powell has sold unregistered babies out of her grade mare Pecan for a lot of money!
I know who Molly Powell is. I hadn't thought of that. I bet she would sell one for me if I asked her. Heard she is really nice. | |
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Blessed 
Location: Here | perfectturns - 2014-02-09 2:08 PM Honeymoney - 2014-02-09 1:19 PM If you breed to a quality stallion the stud fee and costs for breeding will be way more than you can ever sell the offspring for. Not always true. Molly Powell has sold unregistered babies out of her grade mare Pecan for a lot of money!
Kind of hard to compare. Pecan went to the NFR | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 422
Location: Fort Bragg North Carolina | No plans on breeding for mine but I was just curious I neve hear about grades being bred w nicer studs so many people are against breeding grades so just curious thanks for the replies | |
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 Saint Stacey
| SG. - 2014-02-09 7:19 PM perfectturns - 2014-02-09 2:08 PM Honeymoney - 2014-02-09 1:19 PM If you breed to a quality stallion the stud fee and costs for breeding will be way more than you can ever sell the offspring for. Not always true. Molly Powell has sold unregistered babies out of her grade mare Pecan for a lot of money!
I was thinking the same thing. Pecan went to the NFR numerous times. She is an exception, not the norm when it comes to grade horses and resell value of their babies.
I am not saying that grade horses are necessarily bad. But how many besides Pecan ever came close to what that little mare accomplished? | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Financially speaking, its expensive enough to breed registered horses, and even then it can be hard to sell the babies when people want to lowball you on their price.
I wouldn't intentionally breed for a grade horse, but that's just me. Even if you never intend to sell, in case you do- its going to be really hard. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | casualdust07 - 2014-02-10 7:31 AM
Financially speaking, its expensive enough to breed registered horses, and even then it can be hard to sell the babies when people want to lowball you on their price.
I wouldn't intentionally breed for a grade horse, but that's just me. Even if you never intend to sell, in case you do- its going to be really hard.
this
our market is pretty poor in my area for something without papers. I would not compare Pecan to your average nice/winning grade mare either. JMO for selling horses in my area.
a nice grade will go for less than a poorly put together papered horse in my area for a prospect. Proven is another story. | |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | I don't think I would breed a mare without papers, or vice versa. | |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | I have contemplated this myself, only with a little different twist...I have a really nice little mare with ApHC papers and a performance permit (meaning she's not colored and wasn't given regular papers), but she is really about 7/8ths QH. According to the ApHC rules, in order to register one of her offspring, they must be either colored, or BY a colored stallion. If I breed her to a non-colored ApHC stallion, or an AQHA stallion (or other approved cross) and it comes out without spots, I have a grade baby.
I'm positive that her odds of having a colored baby are slim to none, unless I bred her to a high color producer, or a homozygous horse. Seeing that I haven't found on of those that I care to breed her to, I took her to a VERY, VERY nice local AQHA stallion to breed. The stallion owner and I discussed it, and I told her to not even file a stallion report, it wasn't going to be worth dealing with ApHC. She said she'd be more than happy to, "just in case" plus create some form of legal document that I could keep with the baby to say who it's sire and dam were, but it all turned out for not, as my mare wouldn't breed.
I do think that I will take the above mare's older full sister and breed her to that same stallion, but it will be easier, as the older mare somehow got regular papers (tho has no more color than the younger mare), but I don't have as many stipulations to meet with a baby from that cross. Sadly, for me and my ApHC mares, no matter how nice they are and that they are VERY competative with any other horse...they will be not be worth much more as a registered horse than as a grade. Howver, I'll be breeding with the intention to keep the foal.
Edited by RockinGR 2014-02-10 10:02 AM
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | RockinGR - 2014-02-10 9:57 AM
I have contemplated this myself, only with a little different twist...I have a really nice little mare with ApHC papers and a performance permit (meaning she's not colored and wasn't given regular papers), but she is really about 7/8ths QH. According to the ApHC rules, in order to register one of her offspring, they must be either colored, or BY a colored stallion. If I breed her to a non-colored ApHC stallion, and it comes out without spots, I have a grade baby.
I'm positive that her odds of having a colored baby are slim to none, unless I bred her to a high color producer, or a homozygous horse. Seeing that I haven't found on of those that I care to breed her to, I took her to a VERY, VERY nice local AQHA stallion to breed. The stallion owner and I discussed it, and I told her to not even file a stallion report, it wasn't going to be worth dealing with ApHC. She said she'd be more than happy to, "just in case" plus create some form of legal document that I could keep with the baby to say who it's sire and dam were, but it all turned out for not, as my mare wouldn't breed.
I do think that I will take the above mare's older full sister and breed her to that same stallion, but it will be easier, as the older mare somehow got regular papers (tho has no more color than the younger mare), but I don't have as many stipulations to meet with a baby from that cross. Sadly, for me and my ApHC mares, no matter how nice they are and that they are VERY competative with any other horse...they will be not be worth much more as a registered horse than as a grade. Howver, I'll be breeding with the intention to keep the foal.
You probably could register with Half QH or maybe the american appendix.... Papers won't mean much in this case, but they could be used to verify parentage, age, etc. | |
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Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | barrelracr131 - 2014-02-10 10:01 AM
RockinGR - 2014-02-10 9:57 AM
I have contemplated this myself, only with a little different twist...I have a really nice little mare with ApHC papers and a performance permit (meaning she's not colored and wasn't given regular papers), but she is really about 7/8ths QH. According to the ApHC rules, in order to register one of her offspring, they must be either colored, or BY a colored stallion. If I breed her to a non-colored ApHC stallion, and it comes out without spots, I have a grade baby.
I'm positive that her odds of having a colored baby are slim to none, unless I bred her to a high color producer, or a homozygous horse. Seeing that I haven't found on of those that I care to breed her to, I took her to a VERY, VERY nice local AQHA stallion to breed. The stallion owner and I discussed it, and I told her to not even file a stallion report, it wasn't going to be worth dealing with ApHC. She said she'd be more than happy to, "just in case" plus create some form of legal document that I could keep with the baby to say who it's sire and dam were, but it all turned out for not, as my mare wouldn't breed.
I do think that I will take the above mare's older full sister and breed her to that same stallion, but it will be easier, as the older mare somehow got regular papers (tho has no more color than the younger mare), but I don't have as many stipulations to meet with a baby from that cross. Sadly, for me and my ApHC mares, no matter how nice they are and that they are VERY competative with any other horse...they will be not be worth much more as a registered horse than as a grade. Howver, I'll be breeding with the intention to keep the foal.
You probably could register with Half QH or maybe the american appendix.... Papers won't mean much in this case, but they could be used to verify parentage, age, etc.
I may have to do that--I didn't even know about a half registry... That could be helpful, for if I can verify WHO the sire is, because of who he is, it would very likely add value to my baby. My plan is going to be to breed the old mare anyway, as the younger mare has EPM (we found out after, and I'm sure that's why she'd never breed). The older mare is going to tote my son around, but no more strenuos than that should be this year into next (he'll be 3 this spring) she should be just fine carrying a baby too. Her first one never slowed her down much, LOL! | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| barrelracr131 - 2014-02-10 10:01 AM
RockinGR - 2014-02-10 9:57 AM
I have contemplated this myself, only with a little different twist...I have a really nice little mare with ApHC papers and a performance permit (meaning she's not colored and wasn't given regular papers), but she is really about 7/8ths QH. According to the ApHC rules, in order to register one of her offspring, they must be either colored, or BY a colored stallion. If I breed her to a non-colored ApHC stallion, and it comes out without spots, I have a grade baby.
I'm positive that her odds of having a colored baby are slim to none, unless I bred her to a high color producer, or a homozygous horse. Seeing that I haven't found on of those that I care to breed her to, I took her to a VERY, VERY nice local AQHA stallion to breed. The stallion owner and I discussed it, and I told her to not even file a stallion report, it wasn't going to be worth dealing with ApHC. She said she'd be more than happy to, "just in case" plus create some form of legal document that I could keep with the baby to say who it's sire and dam were, but it all turned out for not, as my mare wouldn't breed.
I do think that I will take the above mare's older full sister and breed her to that same stallion, but it will be easier, as the older mare somehow got regular papers (tho has no more color than the younger mare), but I don't have as many stipulations to meet with a baby from that cross. Sadly, for me and my ApHC mares, no matter how nice they are and that they are VERY competative with any other horse...they will be not be worth much more as a registered horse than as a grade. Howver, I'll be breeding with the intention to keep the foal.
You probably could register with Half QH or maybe the american appendix.... Papers won't mean much in this case, but they could be used to verify parentage, age, etc.
How can you verify parentage? What do the stallion owners have to do? Genetic parentage verification?
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | cheryl makofka - 2014-02-10 10:11 AM barrelracr131 - 2014-02-10 10:01 AM RockinGR - 2014-02-10 9:57 AM I have contemplated this myself, only with a little different twist...I have a really nice little mare with ApHC papers and a performance permit (meaning she's not colored and wasn't given regular papers), but she is really about 7/8ths QH. According to the ApHC rules, in order to register one of her offspring, they must be either colored, or BY a colored stallion. If I breed her to a non-colored ApHC stallion, and it comes out without spots, I have a grade baby. I'm positive that her odds of having a colored baby are slim to none, unless I bred her to a high color producer, or a homozygous horse. Seeing that I haven't found on of those that I care to breed her to, I took her to a VERY, VERY nice local AQHA stallion to breed. The stallion owner and I discussed it, and I told her to not even file a stallion report, it wasn't going to be worth dealing with ApHC. She said she'd be more than happy to, "just in case" plus create some form of legal document that I could keep with the baby to say who it's sire and dam were, but it all turned out for not, as my mare wouldn't breed. I do think that I will take the above mare's older full sister and breed her to that same stallion, but it will be easier, as the older mare somehow got regular papers (tho has no more color than the younger mare), but I don't have as many stipulations to meet with a baby from that cross. Sadly, for me and my ApHC mares, no matter how nice they are and that they are VERY competative with any other horse...they will be not be worth much more as a registered horse than as a grade. Howver, I'll be breeding with the intention to keep the foal. You probably could register with Half QH or maybe the american appendix.... Papers won't mean much in this case, but they could be used to verify parentage, age, etc. How can you verify parentage? What do the stallion owners have to do? Genetic parentage verification?
I think something like that. To be honest, I am not 100% sure. I have never looked into it as I do not breed right now.
for AAHA you need to have QH and TB in the pedigree and I think they need to be DNA'd, I know it also costs extra $$$ if the parents are not registered with them. I know that one has all the info on their website...
I found the application for the Half QH folks http://www.halfquarterhorseregistry.com/pdfs/5.pdf
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 Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | I can only look at this from a mare owner perspective as I don't stand a stallion. If I had a grade mare who had proven to me that she's a great horse I would be willing to breed her with intentions of keeping the foal. She might just be a great ranch horse, an all around show horse, barrel racer or mounted shooting horse. Doesn't matter to me, if she was mine & I wanted a foal from her I'd breed her to a nice stallion. I know life can change & down the road I may have to sell the resulting foal but by that time I'd also plan on having it well started & headed down the road to being sucessful.
As was said above I really think people look to much at bloodlines & not at the actual horse itself when making breeding decisions. I'd much rather see a quality grade mare who has proven herself & has nice conformation raising a foal over a well bred registered mare with crooked legs that couldn't hold up to competing. Not saying bloodlines shouldn't be taken into consideration because they should, but so should the quality of both mare & stallion.
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 Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: Great NW | Yes and I have done this and with very good results. If the mare is proven you shouldn't have too much problem. I have made better money on the foals from my proven unregistered mare then I ever did from my well bred papered foals. I did have a market. If the foals could not barrel race they were big enough to be eventers and they did not care about papers. Horse are unregistered for various reasons and some are pretty well bred - Maybe you could get Half Quarterhorse papers on the mare - that would help you out some. | |
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Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | barrelracr131 - 2014-02-10 10:29 AM
cheryl makofka - 2014-02-10 10:11 AM barrelracr131 - 2014-02-10 10:01 AM RockinGR - 2014-02-10 9:57 AM I have contemplated this myself, only with a little different twist...I have a really nice little mare with ApHC papers and a performance permit (meaning she's not colored and wasn't given regular papers), but she is really about 7/8ths QH. According to the ApHC rules, in order to register one of her offspring, they must be either colored, or BY a colored stallion. If I breed her to a non-colored ApHC stallion, and it comes out without spots, I have a grade baby. I'm positive that her odds of having a colored baby are slim to none, unless I bred her to a high color producer, or a homozygous horse. Seeing that I haven't found on of those that I care to breed her to, I took her to a VERY, VERY nice local AQHA stallion to breed. The stallion owner and I discussed it, and I told her to not even file a stallion report, it wasn't going to be worth dealing with ApHC. She said she'd be more than happy to, "just in case" plus create some form of legal document that I could keep with the baby to say who it's sire and dam were, but it all turned out for not, as my mare wouldn't breed. I do think that I will take the above mare's older full sister and breed her to that same stallion, but it will be easier, as the older mare somehow got regular papers (tho has no more color than the younger mare), but I don't have as many stipulations to meet with a baby from that cross. Sadly, for me and my ApHC mares, no matter how nice they are and that they are VERY competative with any other horse...they will be not be worth much more as a registered horse than as a grade. Howver, I'll be breeding with the intention to keep the foal. You probably could register with Half QH or maybe the american appendix.... Papers won't mean much in this case, but they could be used to verify parentage, age, etc. How can you verify parentage? What do the stallion owners have to do? Genetic parentage verification?
I think something like that. To be honest, I am not 100% sure. I have never looked into it as I do not breed right now. for AAHA you need to have QH and TB in the pedigree and I think they need to be DNA'd, I know it also costs extra $$$ if the parents are not registered with them. I know that one has all the info on their website... I found the application for the Half QH folks http://www.halfquarterhorseregistry.com/pdfs/5.pdf
I obviously haven't looked into the half registry option, but in my paticular case, being that my mares are both registered, and the stallion is registered, I would get a certificate from ApHC, but it will state, directly on the papers, that the foal is not eligible for race, show, or breeding. It also wouldn't meet the criteria for a performance permit. In that instance, I'd have a foal with a registration certificate that was literally nothing more than a piece of paper. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1642
Location: Kansas | My dads cousin owned Run Fun Bar (SI 102) until he died and he let me breed my unregistered mare. She had me a beautiful bay filly in 1996. I still own that mare today as I will never sell her. She will die here with her family. I want a foal out of her to keep back for myself as she is now unsound to race from 2 injuries to her hock (bad cut that sent her to K State for 15 days and now has arthritis in her hock joints and then she has a bone chip floating around from a horse kick). She has won me a buckle and money in barrels, poles, and then also has been used for beginner riding lessons, trails, working cattle, roping, snubbing other young horses off of to break to ride. She has the mind to take it all. She would run on her 3 good legs around the barrels if I asked her too and give me 100% of what she has. She has HEART which is one of the most important things to have in my opinion.
Bill that owns Cajo has tried getting her to take the last couple of years and she hasn't yet. My vet is going to do more invasive tests and scoping to see why this spring to see if he can find a reason and hopefully fix whatever is going on so I can get a foal out of her to keep. I will have more money in getting this done than I probably should, but it is worth it to me. I was told to ask yourself when you breed a mare, if the foal turns out just like the mare, will it be something you would want? I would love to get a foal that is just like my mare. And where the mare has so much influence on the foal, I would hope it would be in my favor the foal would be like her.
So I guess back to the OP's post, yes there are stud owners out there that will let you breed your mare, but do not do it for any sale value in mind, do it for yourself wanting to have another copy of your mare you love and something to go enjoy and do what you want to with it and have fun. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 422
Location: Fort Bragg North Carolina | I knew this topic would go off subject because of controversial debate between grade and papers but I originally just wanted to know if breeders were open to this idea. Thanks for the replies. I don't plan on breeding but do own a proven grade mare was curious on te topic. I would not sell her baby if she was ever bred. If I had to I wouldn't be looking for money. But was just curious since I've never heard of breeders taking grade in consideration :) | |
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Pig-Bear Dog Lover
| charlenenh - 2014-02-16 2:17 AM
I knew this topic would go off subject because of controversial debate between grade and papers but I originally just wanted to know if breeders were open to this idea. Thanks for the replies. I don't plan on breeding but do own a proven grade mare was curious on te topic. I would not sell her baby if she was ever bred. If I had to I wouldn't be looking for money. But was just curious since I've never heard of breeders taking grade in consideration :)
There are people out there who will. I'm lucky my neighbor has some studs by some really big names, Mr jess perry, pyc, i think a corona cartel and others not standing to the public but would only charge me $500 to breed my grade mare and they paid 50k for one of them.. they have a barn of 60 horses all of them are insanely Bred. ETA I just saw big barn and introduced myself .. see whats going on :)
Edited by SwishMiss 2014-02-16 8:54 AM
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Saint Stacey
| charlenenh - 2014-02-16 2:17 AM I knew this topic would go off subject because of controversial debate between grade and papers but I originally just wanted to know if breeders were open to this idea. Thanks for the replies. I don't plan on breeding but do own a proven grade mare was curious on te topic. I would not sell her baby if she was ever bred. If I had to I wouldn't be looking for money. But was just curious since I've never heard of breeders taking grade in consideration :)
It depends on what you want to breed her to. Barrel horse breeders are more open to the idea simply because a horse doesn't HAVE to be registered to compete in most futurites and all other barrels races are open to any type of horse.
I think race horse breeders tend to be a bit more picky.
If I had a grade mare and was wanting to breed her, I would simply call whoever had the stallion I was interested in and ask. The worst they can do is say no. | |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | some will, some will not. I agree just find a stallion you like and give it a shot. worst they can say is no. best they can say is yes.
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Breeding w.o papers?