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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 365
 
| I'm looking for anyways that I can improve my horse on the poles and myself. The pole he hits in the video, if we hit a pole it's always that one I can't always keep him off of it. I do a bunch of slow work, so any new exercises are good. I'm riding him in a plain D ring snaffle. I wanted to try out a tie down in the poles to see if that had any effect, but my tie down disappeared since I don't use it. So critique away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2CYmZb8Mxk&feature=share&list=UUIB2...
Edited by Lucky86 2014-02-22 8:30 PM
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Fire Ant Peddler
Posts: 2881
 
| The video is so blurry that I really can't see your hands. You keep the horse off the poles by lifting with your inside rein and if necessary with your inside leg. Make sure that your horse responds immediately to your hands and legs. It all goes back to control of hind end and shoulders. When your leg gets to the pole you are past that one and should be setting up for the next one. All I can really see is that you are loosing a tremendous amount of time on the end pole by the alley. Hope that helps. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 629
Location: Kentucky | When you are in the weave you need to not move over when you get to the pole but when you are in the middle of the poles. Your horse is anticipating and making all his moves as soon as he gets to the next pole. IMO slow work on poles should be over exaggerated. I am not sure that even made sense, but it does in my pea brain. Your horse is nice this is just the way I was trained eons ago. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 365
| Your right he anticipates the moves and I can't keep up. I do over exaggerate alot in slow work, but moving over in the middle makes sense. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 365
| I don't lift him at all except during slow work. He moves almost completely off my seat and legs, and I slightly direct rein him through weaving. Trying to keep up with him lifting and moving over is just a mess and slows us down. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 422
Location: Fort Bragg North Carolina | My opinion: your horse is too front endy. All I see is shoulder when I watch the video he should be up Instead of using his shoulder that puts more work on you trying to keep him up and forward. Very hard to explain :/ I'd lift move body u might work him w ur leg harder. And honestly if u know ur gonna hit that same pole ride the most aggressive u ever have with ur hands body and mainly leg to keep him OFF so whatever it takes so u can become consistently clean he will quit if ur driving him and moving him aggressively. Doing this especially in the weak areas he should get the message. Act like ur have a million on the line!!! Mental attitude :)))) | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
| From what I see you sit down too soon thre third pole from the top to turn the top, you are also pulling his head to the outside which causes his inside shoulder to drop. When I ran/trained my horses for poles, I wouldn't rate my horse till their nose got to the top pole, and I rode a lot wi my legs, to keep them balanced. I would suggest to work on reverse arcing between the poles.
On your bottom pole he went an entire stride by, it didn't look like you rated him at all, treat the bottom pole like a barrel, stop, shape, then turn.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 365
| cheryl makofka - 2014-02-23 9:50 AM
From what I see you sit down too soon thre third pole from the top to turn the top, you are also pulling his head to the outside which causes his inside shoulder to drop. When I ran/trained my horses for poles, I wouldn't rate my horse till their nose got to the top pole, and I rode a lot wi my legs, to keep them balanced. I would suggest to work on reverse arcing between the poles.
On your bottom pole he went an entire stride by, it didn't look like you rated him at all, treat the bottom pole like a barrel, stop, shape, then turn.
He's to fast to keep up with while lifting. It's the way I have always trained one for poles and it doesn't work for him, but my fastest pole horse was 23 second horse. This one can run 22 being held back. He moves almost solely off my seat and legs running, with me direct reining him through. Hard to explain, but I see how he drops his shoulders especially in his end turns. Barrels he's a stiffer running style. I'm not trying to put anyone off just trying to explain him. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Lucky86 - 2014-02-23 10:32 AM
cheryl makofka - 2014-02-23 9:50 AM
From what I see you sit down too soon thre third pole from the top to turn the top, you are also pulling his head to the outside which causes his inside shoulder to drop. When I ran/trained my horses for poles, I wouldn't rate my horse till their nose got to the top pole, and I rode a lot wi my legs, to keep them balanced. I would suggest to work on reverse arcing between the poles.
On your bottom pole he went an entire stride by, it didn't look like you rated him at all, treat the bottom pole like a barrel, stop, shape, then turn.
He's to fast to keep up with while lifting. It's the way I have always trained one for poles and it doesn't work for him, but my fastest pole horse was 23 second horse. This one can run 22 being held back. He moves almost solely off my seat and legs running, with me direct reining him through. Hard to explain, but I see how he drops his shoulders especially in his end turns. Barrels he's a stiffer running style. I'm not trying to put anyone off just trying to explain him.
If he is too fast for you, then you need to work on you. You may need to look at your saddle, too big of one can leave you behind, you may need to look at your stirrup length, and adjust accordingly.
I have rode 19-20 second horses and it is tough, you also cannot make excuses for a horse, if they are not listening to what you have taught them it just keeps getting worse.
A horse that is shouldering in on the top pole from 3 away will eventually slice the top pole and run past. If you don't get that bottom pole fixed very unlikely he will be a 21 horse.
Sorry to sound harsh, but when you start making excuses you have given into the horse and let him be the boss. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2258
| I can't watch any videos right now but I will tell you what has helped me with pole horses and I have done it forever. I set my poles at 15ft when I practice and also do a lot of setting them at random distances, it will help if you have one anticipating a little too much. It works for me I am sure some don't like to do it but I have had good luck with it. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 365
| cheryl makofka - 2014-02-23 10:39 AM
Lucky86 - 2014-02-23 10:32 AM
cheryl makofka - 2014-02-23 9:50 AM
From what I see you sit down too soon thre third pole from the top to turn the top, you are also pulling his head to the outside which causes his inside shoulder to drop. When I ran/trained my horses for poles, I wouldn't rate my horse till their nose got to the top pole, and I rode a lot wi my legs, to keep them balanced. I would suggest to work on reverse arcing between the poles.
On your bottom pole he went an entire stride by, it didn't look like you rated him at all, treat the bottom pole like a barrel, stop, shape, then turn.
He's to fast to keep up with while lifting. It's the way I have always trained one for poles and it doesn't work for him, but my fastest pole horse was 23 second horse. This one can run 22 being held back. He moves almost solely off my seat and legs running, with me direct reining him through. Hard to explain, but I see how he drops his shoulders especially in his end turns. Barrels he's a stiffer running style. I'm not trying to put anyone off just trying to explain him.
If he is too fast for you, then you need to work on you. You may need to look at your saddle, too big of one can leave you behind, you may need to look at your stirrup length, and adjust accordingly.
I have rode 19-20 second horses and it is tough, you also cannot make excuses for a horse, if they are not listening to what you have taught them it just keeps getting worse.
A horse that is shouldering in on the top pole from 3 away will eventually slice the top pole and run past. If you don't get that bottom pole fixed very unlikely he will be a 21 horse.
Sorry to sound harsh, but when you start making excuses you have given into the horse and let him be the boss.
Nope I am honest in saying I get left behind in the poles on him. But picking up his shoulder with speed doesn't work, he is all leg not hands. He runs better by using leg control. That's why I'm looking for exercises to practice making him more automatic and clean up his last turn. My saddle fits me, fits him. It's not our first saddle. The way I switched to riding him was from watching the riders who win the pole classes and some videos from different big pole benders. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Lucky86 - 2014-02-23 11:39 AM
cheryl makofka - 2014-02-23 10:39 AM
Lucky86 - 2014-02-23 10:32 AM
cheryl makofka - 2014-02-23 9:50 AM
From what I see you sit down too soon thre third pole from the top to turn the top, you are also pulling his head to the outside which causes his inside shoulder to drop. When I ran/trained my horses for poles, I wouldn't rate my horse till their nose got to the top pole, and I rode a lot wi my legs, to keep them balanced. I would suggest to work on reverse arcing between the poles.
On your bottom pole he went an entire stride by, it didn't look like you rated him at all, treat the bottom pole like a barrel, stop, shape, then turn.
He's to fast to keep up with while lifting. It's the way I have always trained one for poles and it doesn't work for him, but my fastest pole horse was 23 second horse. This one can run 22 being held back. He moves almost solely off my seat and legs running, with me direct reining him through. Hard to explain, but I see how he drops his shoulders especially in his end turns. Barrels he's a stiffer running style. I'm not trying to put anyone off just trying to explain him.
If he is too fast for you, then you need to work on you. You may need to look at your saddle, too big of one can leave you behind, you may need to look at your stirrup length, and adjust accordingly.
I have rode 19-20 second horses and it is tough, you also cannot make excuses for a horse, if they are not listening to what you have taught them it just keeps getting worse.
A horse that is shouldering in on the top pole from 3 away will eventually slice the top pole and run past. If you don't get that bottom pole fixed very unlikely he will be a 21 horse.
Sorry to sound harsh, but when you start making excuses you have given into the horse and let him be the boss.
Nope I am honest in saying I get left behind in the poles on him. But picking up his shoulder with speed doesn't work, he is all leg not hands. He runs better by using leg control. That's why I'm looking for exercises to practice making him more automatic and clean up his last turn. My saddle fits me, fits him. It's not our first saddle. The way I switched to riding him was from watching the riders who win the pole classes and some videos from different big pole benders.
Leg control is very good, but you are tipping the nose out causing the horse to drop his shoulder becoming unbalanced and crashing into poles. He is leaning on the bit, not giving to it, this will also make him dump on his front end.
If you say he is all leg and no hands then he wouldn't be leaning into the bit or dropping his shoulder.
I know there are many pole bending educational videos by professionals I would invest in those. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 365
| cheryl makofka - 2014-02-23 12:01 PM
Lucky86 - 2014-02-23 11:39 AM
cheryl makofka - 2014-02-23 10:39 AM
Lucky86 - 2014-02-23 10:32 AM
cheryl makofka - 2014-02-23 9:50 AM
From what I see you sit down too soon thre third pole from the top to turn the top, you are also pulling his head to the outside which causes his inside shoulder to drop. When I ran/trained my horses for poles, I wouldn't rate my horse till their nose got to the top pole, and I rode a lot wi my legs, to keep them balanced. I would suggest to work on reverse arcing between the poles.
On your bottom pole he went an entire stride by, it didn't look like you rated him at all, treat the bottom pole like a barrel, stop, shape, then turn.
He's to fast to keep up with while lifting. It's the way I have always trained one for poles and it doesn't work for him, but my fastest pole horse was 23 second horse. This one can run 22 being held back. He moves almost solely off my seat and legs running, with me direct reining him through. Hard to explain, but I see how he drops his shoulders especially in his end turns. Barrels he's a stiffer running style. I'm not trying to put anyone off just trying to explain him.
If he is too fast for you, then you need to work on you. You may need to look at your saddle, too big of one can leave you behind, you may need to look at your stirrup length, and adjust accordingly.
I have rode 19-20 second horses and it is tough, you also cannot make excuses for a horse, if they are not listening to what you have taught them it just keeps getting worse.
A horse that is shouldering in on the top pole from 3 away will eventually slice the top pole and run past. If you don't get that bottom pole fixed very unlikely he will be a 21 horse.
Sorry to sound harsh, but when you start making excuses you have given into the horse and let him be the boss.
Nope I am honest in saying I get left behind in the poles on him. But picking up his shoulder with speed doesn't work, he is all leg not hands. He runs better by using leg control. That's why I'm looking for exercises to practice making him more automatic and clean up his last turn. My saddle fits me, fits him. It's not our first saddle. The way I switched to riding him was from watching the riders who win the pole classes and some videos from different big pole benders.
Leg control is very good, but you are tipping the nose out causing the horse to drop his shoulder becoming unbalanced and crashing into poles. He is leaning on the bit, not giving to it, this will also make him dump on his front end.
If you say he is all leg and no hands then he wouldn't be leaning into the bit or dropping his shoulder.
I know there are many pole bending educational videos by professionals I would invest in those.
So basically just go ahead and pick up his shoulder anyway? Do you have any suggestions of good professional pole riders videos to watch?
I can ride him either way by lifting his shoulder the whole time or just guiding him. He gets going to straight cutting into the poles on the way down either way, which is what happened in the video. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I love threads about pole bending, because I enjoy poles even more than barrels, and I just seem to be able to run poles better and more consistently than barrels. Don't ask me why....I just do. I feel lucky to have had some very good teaching over the years, I guess. I hope you don't mind my excessive verbiage on the subject! LOL
First of all, I like your horse a lot. He seems talented and he runs like he enjoys his job. Also, don't go so hard on yourself. I don't think you were riding him bad at all. Sometimes a lack of comfort/confidence in a situation like this, in and of itself, can get you running "behind". As you gel and get with him, his and your confidence will grow, and you will be more likely to be "with" him. If you aren't as comfortable and familiar and trusting of a given horse, you will tend to "safety up" just enough to fall behind. It hope this makes sense.
In a competitive pole bending run, you usually don't have time to "think" or even react very much. You and your horse have to develop muscle memory and be in synch. Yes, sometimes you have to instinctively react to a bobble, a slip, or whatever, but a real good run is just like a dance or skiing slalom.
I agree with you that it's a good think that your horse is very responsive to your body position and weight distribution in the saddle. Before you get there, I think you have to do a TON of slow work....walking, trotting, and slow loping. If you can dance your way through with your hands doing very little except tipping his nose, then you are on the right track. During the slow work, distributing more weight on your outside stirrup, and shifting your weight to your outside butt cheek will get him to follow you, without losing that forward motion.....kind of a 2-track motion when swapping leads. Even though you are doing slow work, don't let him "snake" his way through. Make him swap leads then move over between the poles, BUT not until you ask. If they cheat and start to swap leads and pass between poles even a few inches before you ask, that will just lead to more anticipation and cheating. I don't ask for a swap until the front shoulder is even with the pole....sometimes I don't ask till my leg is even with the pole. You'll figure out the best place on your horse, but bevery consistent at slow speeds over and over again. If he anticipates early, then you might have to use your hands, but it shouldn't take much more than a tickle or bump. Other than that, I think your hands should be very quiet during the weave, other than to keep the nose tipped in at each approaching pole. If you don't do that, then he will end up throwing his head out in the opposite direction at faster speeds. At the near end, I saw that he tended to stall out and pivot. That's just very common. I try to keep them squared up to the "rate" point and keep their weight evenly distributed as they drop their ass. At that point, I turn my upper body (more or less use "body English" while sliding my hand down the rein. I almost lock my hand in position and let my hand....the reins....and his face follow me around.
Anyway, sorry for rambling, but that's my two cents worth. I bet you two are going to be tough. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 365
| HotbearLVR - 2014-02-23 12:53 PM
I love threads about pole bending, because I enjoy poles even more than barrels, and I just seem to be able to run poles better and more consistently than barrels. Don't ask me why....I just do. I feel lucky to have had some very good teaching over the years, I guess. I hope you don't mind my excessive verbiage on the subject! LOL
First of all, I like your horse a lot. He seems talented and he runs like he enjoys his job. Also, don't go so hard on yourself. I don't think you were riding him bad at all. Sometimes a lack of comfort/confidence in a situation like this, in and of itself, can get you running "behind". As you gel and get with him, his and your confidence will grow, and you will be more likely to be "with" him. If you aren't as comfortable and familiar and trusting of a given horse, you will tend to "safety up" just enough to fall behind. It hope this makes sense.
In a competitive pole bending run, you usually don't have time to "think" or even react very much. You and your horse have to develop muscle memory and be in synch. Yes, sometimes you have to instinctively react to a bobble, a slip, or whatever, but a real good run is just like a dance or skiing slalom.
I agree with you that it's a good think that your horse is very responsive to your body position and weight distribution in the saddle. Before you get there, I think you have to do a TON of slow work....walking, trotting, and slow loping. If you can dance your way through with your hands doing very little except tipping his nose, then you are on the right track. During the slow work, distributing more weight on your outside stirrup, and shifting your weight to your outside butt cheek will get him to follow you, without losing that forward motion.....kind of a 2-track motion when swapping leads. Even though you are doing slow work, don't let him "snake" his way through. Make him swap leads then move over between the poles, BUT not until you ask. If they cheat and start to swap leads and pass between poles even a few inches before you ask, that will just lead to more anticipation and cheating. I don't ask for a swap until the front shoulder is even with the pole....sometimes I don't ask till my leg is even with the pole. You'll figure out the best place on your horse, but bevery consistent at slow speeds over and over again. If he anticipates early, then you might have to use your hands, but it shouldn't take much more than a tickle or bump. Other than that, I think your hands should be very quiet during the weave, other than to keep the nose tipped in at each approaching pole. If you don't do that, then he will end up throwing his head out in the opposite direction at faster speeds. At the near end, I saw that he tended to stall out and pivot. That's just very common. I try to keep them squared up to the "rate" point and keep their weight evenly distributed as they drop their ass. At that point, I turn my upper body (more or less use "body English" while sliding my hand down the rein. I almost lock my hand in position and let my hand....the reins....and his face follow me around.
Anyway, sorry for rambling, but that's my two cents worth. I bet you two are going to be tough.
Thank You very much! You explained what I've been trying to do. He will literally shift and move when I move my weight in the saddle, you can see me throw my weight out on the first end turn and him follow. I just feel like I'm moving to much. He doesn't like his face messed with a bunch. This snaffle is his "tough" bit, in barrels he has a little s hack that he can ignore in poles. I'd just like to see him make a better end turn and while trotting he tries to turn on top of it like the other end. Weaving he just tries to cheat me, he knows the job and tries moving in to soon. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I think that a lot of people would love to have a horse who is moving with you and staying under you. You can take advantage of this. The cutting in early and good end poles will come with a lot of slow work and insisting that he wait before swapping and cutting in. On the ends, keep him squared up all the way to your rate point. The rate is much more crisp when the weight is evenly distributed and he's less likely to swing his ass out and stall out on you. With poles, I think your "rate" point is a lot closer to your "pivot" point, so it's almost one continual motion. I think he's a nice horse and there's no reason why you guys can't run 20s. With a soft face and gentle hands, you will be able to tip his nose and shape him without much trouble.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 365
| HotbearLVR - 2014-02-23 6:25 PM
I think that a lot of people would love to have a horse who is moving with you and staying under you. You can take advantage of this. The cutting in early and good end poles will come with a lot of slow work and insisting that he wait before swapping and cutting in. On the ends, keep him squared up all the way to your rate point. The rate is much more crisp when the weight is evenly distributed and he's less likely to swing his ass out and stall out on you. With poles, I think your "rate" point is a lot closer to your "pivot" point, so it's almost one continual motion. I think he's a nice horse and there's no reason why you guys can't run 20s. With a soft face and gentle hands, you will be able to tip his nose and shape him without much trouble.
In barrels he has almost a rollback turn, and you can't run him past a barrel. I think that's why it bothers me. So square up his end poles? With weaving would it be better to move over after my hip passes the pole or in the middle? I've watched both, and tried both. But he's smart and anticipates each pole. It doesn't help he hadnt been through the poles since last May until this month. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Lucky86 - 2014-02-23 7:57 PM
HotbearLVR - 2014-02-23 6:25 PM
I think that a lot of people would love to have a horse who is moving with you and staying under you. You can take advantage of this. The cutting in early and good end poles will come with a lot of slow work and insisting that he wait before swapping and cutting in. On the ends, keep him squared up all the way to your rate point. The rate is much more crisp when the weight is evenly distributed and he's less likely to swing his ass out and stall out on you. With poles, I think your "rate" point is a lot closer to your "pivot" point, so it's almost one continual motion. I think he's a nice horse and there's no reason why you guys can't run 20s. With a soft face and gentle hands, you will be able to tip his nose and shape him without much trouble.
In barrels he has almost a rollback turn, and you can't run him past a barrel. I think that's why it bothers me. So square up his end poles? With weaving would it be better to move over after my hip passes the pole or in the middle? I've watched both, and tried both. But he's smart and anticipates each pole. It doesn't help he hadnt been through the poles since last May until this month.
That's right. Approach the ends and try to keep him parallel to the poles ("squared up"). It's a subtle thing, but I think it makes a difference. If he rates hard and he isn't squared up, it's like putting the brakes on but only one wheel "brakes". If you can keep the weight distributed as evenly as possible when he drops his ass, then his "rate" will be better, and he is less likely to swing his ass out when wrapping the end pole. That "roll back" style you describe might work to his advantage. The hardest part and most harrowing part of a good pole run, I think, is when they drop their ass and wrap almost in one motion.....or so it seems. The challenge is to stay balanced and not let yourself get pitched forward. If you are up over his front end and he tried to rate and turn, he will bounce and get front endy, and you get all out of position. An analogy is like comparing sitting on a bar stool with your legs on a strut, versus sitting back on a chair with your feet firmly planted on the ground. It wouldn't take much for me to push you off that stool, but it would be almost impossible for me to push you off that chair. Work on getting that sucker to stay square and drop his ass, while keeping your weight back and feet forward. I do have a couple video examples of this on a couple young horses on my FB page....AND I have a couple of me getting thrown forward! LOL. Once you get it to click, it's wild! | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I forgot to answer the second question. First of all, where you ask for that lead swap may vary a little depending on the horse. They key is being VERY strict with consistency. Let's say I am passing a pole that is situated to my left.,...in other words, I am to the right of the pole. When my leg is even with that pole, I shift my weight slightly to the left and tip his nose slightly to the right. You don't need much inside rein to get him to swap and pass over to the other side. By shifting my weight, I mean I put more weight on the stirrup that is on the side I want to pass to and I shift my weigh slightly more onto that butt cheek. You can do this without flopping around, but it takes a LOT of slow repetition.
The fact that he hasn't been working poles much for a while can work to your advantage. | |
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 Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | I agree with what Scott is saying and will add some comments of my own. You need to be sitting more in the saddle and pushing your horse from behind. The person who said your horse looked front endy, was right. Your horse is on his front end, that is why he is pivoting (swinging the rear) on the end pole. (Scott, you need to post the video of you working Wilson on the poles. It shows what the horse's position should be and how you should ask for the rate at the end pole with the hindquarters square (up and under them). The horse needs to rate in a straight line. If you run your tape in slow motion, you will see that your horse goes into the turn on the end pole with the hip kicked out and pivoting on the front end. He cannot change direction and drive out with power with his hip in this position. To help him achieve this, you have to be sitting in the saddle, pushing him with your seat and legs. You need to rate for the turn with your hips square in the saddle, your shoulders should be square as well. Too many times people anticipate the turn and turn their hips and shoulders BEFORE they ask for the rate. So, the horse is trying to rate and turn at the same time. It doesn't work. (Picture driving a car to a stop sign and turning the wheel then applying the brake. The rear end is going to swing.) The horse has to sit down square and rate before you ask for the turn to execute it correctly. So the motion is, sit down, then turn your body and help him through the turn. You cannot have your weight forward or he is going to go to the front end (as he is doing). I tell my students to pretend they are trying to push the horse uphill with their seat. Hope this makes some sense. It is a lot easier to demonstrate than to try to explain here.
As far as hitting the pole through the weave - I think if you pick a spot on the ground midway between the poles and use your body to move the horse to that spot, it will help you. If I had to bet, you are looking at the pole and anticipating that you might hit it because you have in the past. If you look at the pole, you are dang sure going to hit it. Just like a barrel in barrel racing.
Here is the video of Scott riding Wilson. Notice the square set on the end poles and the slight weight shifts that help the horse weave through the poles. He is sitting back so the horse will work off of his rear end.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152259104651585&set=vb.540681584&type=2&theater
Edited by Hollywood's Fan 2014-02-24 9:20 AM
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Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | Oh, and I would get rid of the snaffle bit. Horses will tend to push into them, also encouraging them to go to the front end. Try a Jr. Cowhorse on this horse. The small shank would give you some lift and I don't think he would push into it as much. | |
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Critique In Pole Bending