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Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | I posted a video a couple weeks ago and everyone noticed my mare cross firing and that means soreness. Well, the chiro was out this morning and I mentioned what was happening. He said she was showing soreness in her hock pressure points and by what he saw from her, she will most likely need injected.
That being said...I've never had to have hocks injected and many years since anything else has had to be injected(not on her). I'm making an appointment today for the vet and I want to walk in there with a little knowledge and understanding of what will happen...need to happen. I know you can inject with different things...I only know for sure about pulling blood and doing something to it and then injecting it. I've heard that, that is better for them but again I have no experience with this so anyone want to educate me?! Thanks in advance! |
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  Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | Ask your vet a lot of questions, and if you are unsure about something don't hesitate to ask. The only stupid questions is the one not asked.
I was 100 percent against injections of all sorts....until the first time I had a horse done because nothing else was working. Now I understand there is in fact a time and place for it. |
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 Ms. Poutability
Posts: 2362
Location: In my own world | Lol just did this Monday to my mare. It's only the second time I have ever had this done so I asked my vet to explain it all! He did complete with X-rays and a horse skeleton model. Here is what I learned in a nutshell:
the hock has 4 joints. The lower 2 are the ones that show arthritic changes due to wear and tear. The uppers can show changes that are OCD lesions. Degenerative genetic issues. We X-rayed my mare to get a base line on her hocks. No fusing. Some small changes that are typical of a working horse. We did inject the lower joint. He says 90 of the horses only need the lower injected. Sometimes you need to do the next one up. But he says he doesn't like to stick a needle in there unless necessary. It was my call and I only did the bottom one. Now we injected with HA and a steroid. We did not discuss the other meds that can be used. The blood thing you are talking about is IRAP I think. He told me they could pull blood, do something to it and then inject it. It cost $1000 to get the blood pulled and processed. You would have about 5 doses from that. Hoping we don't have to do that.
So I'm no expert but that is what I learned Monday. That and my mare is a diva!! |
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Expert
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Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | That's how I was. I've never felt they were necessary but knowing that she is sore and who knows how long she has been. she is one of those that would keep going even if she had a leg falling off. I will do whatever makes her not hurt anymore. |
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Expert
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Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | This is another thing I'm worried about....the vet around here is a kind of a jack of all trades...master of none. He does all animals but mostly does small animals these days except for a few people around here including me. Is he someone to go about this with? Or do I need to go to woodland run? That's about the next best thing around here. No in betweens. He's always telling me I'm too worried. |
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 Living within my means
Posts: 5128
Location: Randolph, Utah | lexyy12 - 2014-03-19 9:50 AM
This is another thing I'm worried about....the vet around here is a kind of a jack of all trades...master of none. He does all animals but mostly does small animals these days except for a few people around here including me. Is he someone to go about this with? Or do I need to go to woodland run? That's about the next best thing around here. No in betweens. He's always telling me I'm too worried.
If you don't trust your vet find an equine vet and haul to them.
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Expert
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Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | He hasn't shown me a reason to not trust him. I guess I'm just worried since I've never done this before. |
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| Mine is actually going in for in for an exam tomorrow as I suspect she needs injections. If she needs to be injected (Which we will determine from a lameness exam/flexion tests) then I will be injecting her with a steroid and also HA, so long as my vet doesn't advise differently. |
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| Hock injections are very common. Injecting hocks is, in essence, giving them a "lube" job. Instead of having bone scraping against bone - which is very painful - the joint will be able to glide painlessly because now there is lubrication from hyaluronic acid and probably something like a steroid like Vetalog which is to calm down that angry joint. When a horse's hocks are hurting them because of the work we have them doing, joint injections, while not a "cure", are a miracle pain reliever! I can't imagine not doing it for a horse that needs it. There is, of course, always some risk when you are going into a joint but I've never had a problem and have only personally known of one horse out of many,many,many that have had injections. I think you can trust your vet on this.
Edited by runs4fun 2014-03-19 11:07 AM
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Ms. Poutability
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Location: In my own world | That I can't answer on if your vet should or shouldn't. I have 2 vets I use and both are equine vets. One works at a equine only clinic. The other has his own practice. He does see cats and dogs too. But he use to work at an equine only clinic for 10 yrs and raises jumping horses. He has another vet at his practice and she does mostly the little critters. Although he has seen my dog too. And at the equine only clinic I go to. I use mostly one vet, only him for lameness etc. emergency cases I would see another one there. But the other 2 vets there NO WAY! It really all depends on who you trust
none of that probably helped you any. I'm sorry!! |
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 Texas Taco
Posts: 7499
Location: Bandera, TX | I inject hocks regularily. I try to do it before there are major pain issues. A lot of people seem to be against it until they get their horse injected and feel the difference in their movement..
I take mine to an equine vet who injects a lot of horses every day. Mine will not get done by the jack-of-all trade vet. There are risks with injection the joints. |
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Expert
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Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | I'm going to take her to him and if I don't feel comfortable with what he does or wants to do or doesn't seem like he knows then I will tell him no. There is a woodland run vet that comes to the track around here that I might make an appointment with. |
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 Expert
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Location: Viola, IL | I use one vet for my injections. I want someone whom does them regularly, and I feel comfortable with. This vet fills that bill. :)
It does sound like she's sore. Hock injections are very common. |
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Expert
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Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | Nope I don't feel right about my vet doing it....calling woodland run. My girl is worth it. |
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Rad Dork
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Location: Oklahoma | lexyy12 - 2014-03-19 1:51 PM Nope I don't feel right about my vet doing it....calling woodland run. My girl is worth it.
Sounds like a good decision.
My regular vet (shots, Coggins, minor things) doesn't turn my horse if it's a perfomance related issue. He's a good guy, but I'd rather make the short drive and see a real equine professional. And be sure that whoever you use can really break down what he is saying to you. My equine vet realistically told me the outcomes of this shot vs this shot and we made the decision as to where to go from there. Just be sure you really have faith in your vet because this isn't something you want your horse to be first one he's treated. |
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Expert
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Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | I've been to woodland run many many times with my navicular gelding so I'm definitely comfortable with certain vets there. So hopefully this will help my girl out!! |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I have had joints injected, and I have had joints infected by the vet.
I am not a fan of hock injections, if the hocks are bad, I would rather spend the money and fuse the lower hocks instead of injecting 3+ times per year. In the long run you would save money.
For per joints I have no problem injecting, but the only things I allow go into my joint is trimethacyclone, HA, and an antibiotic.
Depomedrol, methylprednosolone, and beta something, the by products can last months to years in the joint and prevent healing, and degeneration of cartilage.
Also make sure your vet scrubs each injection site for 7 minutes this will reduce the chance of infection, once the alcohol is sprayed onto the injection site, do not let the vet break sterile procedure (this is how my horses joints became infected).
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Expert
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Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | cheryl makofka - 2014-03-19 4:31 PM
I have had joints injected, and I have had joints infected by the vet.
I am not a fan of hock injections, if the hocks are bad, I would rather spend the money and fuse the lower hocks instead of injecting 3+ times per year. In the long run you would save money.
For per joints I have no problem injecting, but the only things I allow go into my joint is trimethacyclone, HA, and an antibiotic.
Depomedrol, methylprednosolone, and beta something, the by products can last months to years in the joint and prevent healing, and degeneration of cartilage.
Also make sure your vet scrubs each injection site for 7 minutes this will reduce the chance of infection, once the alcohol is sprayed onto the injection site, do not let the vet break sterile procedure (this is how my horses joints became infected).
Thank you Cheryl! That is really great advice! I will certainly watch closely!! |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | Make sure you know EXACTLY where the source of the soreness is.
I don't quite remember your video, but my gelding was also cross-firing in his barrel turns. He has a catching stifle. Hocks are fine. We injected the stifle today and I've never injected a horse before, so we will see how he does with it. |
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 Arriving at the last minute!
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Location: Kansas | Every time I have been told to inject hocks there has always been another resin the hocks and stifles were sore! Injecting does help temporarily as a band aide and eventually ruins the joint and deteriorates it. As someone that has lost a mare because of a hock infection it is very risky sticking a needle in the joint. The mare I lost didn't need injected after I had two more top vets look at the x rays so proceed with caution. I could tell you ask the reasons they can get infection just don't have time now. |
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The Advice Guru
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| amy laymon - 2014-03-19 7:11 PM
Every time I have been told to inject hocks there has always been another resin the hocks and stifles were sore! Injecting does help temporarily as a band aide and eventually ruins the joint and deteriorates it. As someone that has lost a mare because of a hock infection it is very risky sticking a needle in the joint. The mare I lost didn't need injected after I had two more top vets look at the x rays so proceed with caution. I could tell you ask the reasons they can get infection just don't have time now.
I have had infected joints, and I knew my horse was in trouble the next day. My vet did not do the injection, and was out of the country for 2 weeks. My horse suffered for 2 weeks, until my vet could see him, and with proper treatment my horse was saved, and he returned to be a competitive horse for years. He is now 22 and retired.
I remember your incident, I remember that there is more to your story then just the infected joint, as it was quite a length of time between injection and diagnosis.
Not all joints are ruined by injections, it depends what you put in. Trimethsinalone the studies have shown evidence of cartilage re growth. The higher molecular weight of the HA the longer it lasts, it also is more expensive. Hylartyl is about 100/dose but very good.
I encourage all people whose horses are experiencing pain to do your research prior to the vet trip.
The 7 min scrub is to mechanically remove all bacteria from the skin, the most current research is showing not to shave the area as the shaving can cause micro abrasions which can lead to infection. The alcohol is the final step before sterile technique.
If sterile technique is broken, please stop your vet and get him to re scrub, and sterilize. |
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Expert
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| I agree with Amy. There is usually a reason the hocks it stifles are sore. Feet are one reason. Make sure your farrier is shoeing your horse level and balanced. Sore hamstrings can also be confused with hock and stifle soreness. These are just two and there is more. |
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Expert
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| lexyy12 - 2014-03-19 11:19 AM
I'm going to take her to him and if I don't feel comfortable with what he does or wants to do or doesn't seem like he knows then I will tell him no. There is a woodland run vet that comes to the track around here that I might make an appointment with.
Unless he injects lots of joints on horses I would find another vet. If he scratches the cartilage with the needle he's created more damage than he's helping. If he doesn't get the drugs in the joint you've wasted your money. Whoever does inject your horse-find out exactly what they're using-amount and concentration, too. "Steroids" means nothing. Some will use some form of steroid, some form of Hyalouronic acid and an antibiotic. Know what they're putting in. Xrays at least the first time before injecting so you know what you're dealing with. |
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Arriving at the last minute!
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Location: Kansas | Some of the things I learned was if there is any infection in the body anywhere and you inject with a steroid then that weakens that spot and the infection attacks that area. The mare I had injected was fine when I took off to AZ and she just had like one little spot right where the injection was on one hock and it was so small I could barely see it. The vet told me to put DMSO on it and then it blew up. I guess when you put DMSO on something and it does this it means there is for sure infection in there. Another vet came along and stuck her with a needle in the joint again and told me no way was it infected it had been to long...like 2 or 3 weeks. So long story short it was 1 month from the initial injection to the time she was put down. In the beginning I had her on so many immune building and infection fighting herbs to fight sickness while on the road I truly believe that was helping her fight the initial infection but once I took her off that and put her on antibiotics from the vet that caused a big ol mess along with the DMSO too. Long story short it was enough to make me look at any other route I can!!
Recently I took a horse to the vet that had gotten sore in the back. The vet said I should inject the lower hocks. Instead I took the rear shoes off and used my laser on his back and lumbar etc. In 5 days he was like a new horse. Totally not sore and back to moving normal. He is a horse that works better without back shoes. There is so much to consider. I am just not convinced to inject a horse if they have a little spur somewhere. That means the calcium/phos/magnesium ratios are out of balance. So many time people are feeding wrong. They give oodles and gobs of alfalfa causing their horse to get bone over growth which is spurs on the hocks etc. Its many times man made!! I have a friend that helps me figure out the right ratios for a horse. In a year you can see bones smooth out and spurs go away. But the quick fix is injections. I truly believe most of these problems are preventable and fixable without the injections. |
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 Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | there was alot of bad medical care imho going on with your filly..I am not sure id blame the hock injection 100%.. sad situation. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 494
| If you are getting injections done for sure DO NOT go to a local vet. Definitely haul to an equine facility. I had a hock get infected from a "jack of all trades" vet. A hock should be washed and disinfected for a MINIMUM of 7 minutes is what I have been told. Whenever I get injections done (when absolutely needed) I watch over the vet like a hawk. There is no room for error. In reality, injections in the long run are worse for the joint, but work for the time being. I would suggest to check into the way your shoer is shoeing your horse as well. I find that having them barefoot in the hind feet is easier on them. |
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The Advice Guru
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| People need to educate themselves on their horse the normal vital signs.
People also need to educate themselves on what is given and the rationale why it is being given. There are many steroids, most vets want to inject depo, methyl, beta steroids as the horse will have faster relief but the long term health decreases.
People also need to educate themselves on what should be done prior to injection. A vet should never inject before doing X-rays as this is the only way to see degeneration and inflammation.
As I said before the 7 min scrub plus sterile technique reduces the risk of infection.
If a person suspects infection, take your horses temp, even if it is low grade, take your horse to a vet. To rule out infection the vet needs to do a culture, this includes all the cleaning steps and the vet to tap the joint to get synovial fluid and send it to the lab.
The vet can look at the fluid under a microscope, if they see WBC and protein, then the joint should be flushed with litres of saline antibiotic, then after the flush HA should be reinjected.
Also if your vet does everything correct, the odds of your horse getting a joint infection is lower then your horse reacting to the anesthetic
Also if you do inject try to get your horse n the adequen regime, I also use glucosamine injectable weekly and get a good oral supplement, this may be trial and error as each horse reacts differently. I only have young horses now, so as preventative I use tight joint plus.
If you want you can message me and I can try and help you through this
Edited by cheryl makofka 2014-03-20 9:02 AM
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
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Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Infections are NOT the norm, especially when administered by an Equine Specific vet.
You have been given good advice from Cheryl on scrubbing ect.
It is my opinion that if we are going to ask them to do unusual things- at a high level of performance then we owe it to them to keep them pain free and often that means tapping the joint.
I will bet anyone that 13 out of the top 15 at the NFR and 7 out of the top 10 at any given futurity- have been injected somewhere, sometime and we do not hear of them getting infected.
Think of singers with vocal chord problems- how many regular people do you know with vocal chord issues??? None because we dont over use our chords. Or baseball players- with arm issues- how many Joe Blows do you know with arm issues in general?
It is the same IMO with horses. And often they are born with boney issues-not all are man made but we certainly ask them to do things that are not normal and at a high rate of speed.
I think alternative therapies are great and some may work to help ease secondary issues but if my child is sick or injured - I take them to a doctor, period.
Dont be afraid but do pay attention. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| amy laymon - 2014-03-19 10:59 PM
Some of the things I learned was if there is any infection in the body anywhere and you inject with a steroid then that weakens that spot and the infection attacks that area. The mare I had injected was fine when I took off to AZ and she just had like one little spot right where the injection was on one hock and it was so small I could barely see it. The vet told me to put DMSO on it and then it blew up. I guess when you put DMSO on something and it does this it means there is for sure infection in there. Another vet came along and stuck her with a needle in the joint again and told me no way was it infected it had been to long...like 2 or 3 weeks. So long story short it was 1 month from the initial injection to the time she was put down. In the beginning I had her on so many immune building and infection fighting herbs to fight sickness while on the road I truly believe that was helping her fight the initial infection but once I took her off that and put her on antibiotics from the vet that caused a big ol mess along with the DMSO too. Long story short it was enough to make me look at any other route I can!!
Recently I took a horse to the vet that had gotten sore in the back. The vet said I should inject the lower hocks. Instead I took the rear shoes off and used my laser on his back and lumbar etc. In 5 days he was like a new horse. Totally not sore and back to moving normal. He is a horse that works better without back shoes. There is so much to consider. I am just not convinced to inject a horse if they have a little spur somewhere. That means the calcium/phos/magnesium ratios are out of balance. So many time people are feeding wrong. They give oodles and gobs of alfalfa causing their horse to get bone over growth which is spurs on the hocks etc. Its many times man made!! I have a friend that helps me figure out the right ratios for a horse. In a year you can see bones smooth out and spurs go away. But the quick fix is injections. I truly believe most of these problems are preventable and fixable without the injections.
Can you list your research article on bone spurs, as I have dealt with bone spurs, my horses don't get any alfalfa.
You say you can see the bone smooth out, are you xraying, or are you talking about bumps on the splint bone, as these are not bone spurs but damage done to the splint.
If horses are getting too much of one thing the body generally gets rid of the excess by excreting it through the kidneys and out in the urine.
Bone spurs can occur for many different reasons, any trauma to the area can cause a bone spur.
Cuts down to the bone
Punctures
Damaging the bone
Fractures
Malnutrition (have one horse whose hocks are shot, never been worked, never had any trauma, no alfalfa, never had shoes, and I have to fuse)
Prolonged inflammation
Yes sometimes horses will sometimes reabsorb bone spurs, but not the majority |
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Expert
Posts: 2276
Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | Is it possible she could be doing this because all of her career she has been seen by the chiro once a month. But last summer he only saw her once due to my work schedule. Could she be doing that because she was used to that and she wasn't getting it? I'm going to try and find something else to help her before injecting. She's 9 this year.
Edited to add: her feet are the best they have ever looked! So I don't think that is an issue but I will talk with him about it as well
Edited by lexyy12 2014-03-20 10:27 AM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| lexyy12 - 2014-03-20 10:24 AM
Is it possible she could be doing this because all of her career she has been seen by the chiro once a month. But last summer he only saw her once due to my work schedule. Could she be doing that because she was used to that and she wasn't getting it? I'm going to try and find something else to help her before injecting. She's 9 this year.
Edited to add: her feet are the best they have ever looked! So I don't think that is an issue but I will talk with him about it as well
This is the way I look at things, if my horse is off they are telling me something.
My first stop is the vet, I get him to do his assessment, X-rays included ultrasound if he suggests it. I get my diagnosis, then I treat.
If a horse is sore, hocks in your situation, your horse compensates and because of compensation their back, pelvis, hips all go out. If you have been having chiro out monthly, your horse was telling you a long time ago she was hurting.
I suggest getting flexion tests, blocking, and X-rays completed then decide where to go from there. |
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Blessed 
Location: Here | missroselee - 2014-03-19 10:29 AM Ask your vet a lot of questions, and if you are unsure about something don't hesitate to ask. The only stupid questions is the one not asked.
I was 100 percent against injections of all sorts....until the first time I had a horse done because nothing else was working. Now I understand there is in fact a time and place for it.
This^^ |
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Ms. Poutability
Posts: 2362
Location: In my own world | TurnLane - 2014-03-20 9:26 AM Infections are NOT the norm, especially when administered by an Equine Specific vet.
You have been given good advice from Cheryl on scrubbing ect.
It is my opinion that if we are going to ask them to do unusual things- at a high level of performance then we owe it to them to keep them pain free and often that means tapping the joint.
I will bet anyone that 13 out of the top 15 at the NFR and 7 out of the top 10 at any given futurity- have been injected somewhere, sometime and we do not hear of them getting infected.
Think of singers with vocal chord problems- how many regular people do you know with vocal chord issues??? None because we dont over use our chords. Or baseball players- with arm issues- how many Joe Blows do you know with arm issues in general?
It is the same IMO with horses. And often they are born with boney issues-not all are man made but we certainly ask them to do things that are not normal and at a high rate of speed.
I think alternative therapies are great and some may work to help ease secondary issues but if my child is sick or injured - I take them to a doctor, period.
Dont be afraid but do pay attention.
you know my dad and I have this argument all the time. He does not understand why I do chiro, supplements, teeth, research saddle fit etc. He says horses survived for hundereds years without all of this and we didn't do any of this to your horses when you were younger.
And he is right, we didn't, only because I didn't know any better 20 yrs ago. Yes wild horses survived without all that, but we don't ride wild horses. Today's horses are "athletes" IMO and require these things because of what we ask them to do. Barrel racing is not natural and not something a wild horse would do!
I think for their happiness they need to be kept in as natural suroundings as possible, grazing in pasture etc, but sometimes it is not possible. |
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 I"m Jealous!
Posts: 1737
Location: Benton City, WA | There is already a lot of good and some maybe not so good advice on this thread.
Here is the bottom line, IMO:
1. First and foremost, the question you need to answer is does YOUR horse have a physical reason that it needs injected? You really MUST take xrays and have the lameness correctly localized by an equine vet, before you even consider injecting a joint. Like any procedure, joint injections do have real risks.
2. IMHO you can abuse a horse's body with over injecting and under injecting both. I personally take a minimalistic approach to injections. I don't do them unless I have a diagnosed issue AND the horse is showing signs of pain.
You will not see me at the barrel race with my horses lined up to inject feet, hocks, stifles at once. I think that is ridiculous and dangerous. On the other hand, one of my mares had juvenile OCD in her hocks. At 6 years old, her hocks looked horrid on xrays- almost as though she had fractured her hock, and was already trying to fuse. Nothing would help this horse, except injecting the hocks. It would be cruel to ask her to perform without treating this issue. One of my other mares got a splinter and infection in her hock as a baby, and also has severe osteoarthritis as a result. Although these horses have serious issues, I have never needed to inject more than 3 times a year, and have almost never done it that often.
My other options would be to 1. not inject and make them run sore (no thanks, I'm sure this would ruin their attitudes and love of running barrels, not to mention poor performance) or 2. retire them at age 6/7/8? BTW, I will consider laser fusing these mares when it gets to that point, if needed. |
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Sore hocks and injecting