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Miss Not Exciting
Posts: 3279
   
Location: Ft Worth TX | I need suggestions to help a frog grow! Topical feed through anything. My mare has a frog in one hoof that is shriveled up and dead looking. This horse has been extensively treated for thrush. I need her frog to GROW! |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | I read somewhere that light riding can help... something about increasing blood flow and helps it grow back quicker.
Take it with a grain of salt and someone please correct me if I'm wrong! I've always wondered about it. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 349
| Horses will shed their frogs. Is she sore on it? If not I wouldn't bee too worried but definitely keep the circulation up. Im not the person who says everything should go barefoot, although both of mine are, but if you really need that circulation to get going I would say pull the shoes and boot her up, or light ride in sand, or if you have the option turn her out.
(just my thoughts) |
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  Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | Pictures? You will not get a healthy frog if the entire foot is not healthy. If you're fighting thrush & it's not clearing up there is a reason........ |
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | They WILL shed the frogs twice a year... The more pressure it gets, the better... They do better outside than in a stall.. lots of use.... |
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Miss Not Exciting
Posts: 3279
Location: Ft Worth TX | SaraJean - 2014-03-20 6:12 PM
Pictures? You will not get a healthy frog if the entire foot is not healthy. If you're fighting thrush & it's not clearing up there is a reason........
Sara Jean do you care to explain further? I will get more pics tmrw. She is barefoot. This particular foot grows funny and no one really knows what to do. Her foot grows odd. She always grows a lot of bar in that hoof and the heels always seem contracted. If thrush cannot be gotten rid of what else could be going on? I know we got rid of most of it. She lives in a pen with a run in and I ride her regular. What does it look like when they shed the frog? |
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Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | Whoop Z Day Z - 2014-03-20 8:53 PM SaraJean - 2014-03-20 6:12 PM Pictures? You will not get a healthy frog if the entire foot is not healthy. If you're fighting thrush & it's not clearing up there is a reason........ Sara Jean do you care to explain further? I will get more pics tmrw. She is barefoot. This particular foot grows funny and no one really knows what to do. Her foot grows odd. She always grows a lot of bar in that hoof and the heels always seem contracted. If thrush cannot be gotten rid of what else could be going on? I know we got rid of most of it. She lives in a pen with a run in and I ride her regular. What does it look like when they shed the frog?
Honestly I'd like to see pics before I say much as I'd like to see how the foot is growing & how it's trimmed. |
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Miss Not Exciting
Posts: 3279
Location: Ft Worth TX | SaraJean - 2014-03-20 9:08 PM
Whoop Z Day Z - 2014-03-20 8:53 PM SaraJean - 2014-03-20 6:12 PM Pictures? You will not get a healthy frog if the entire foot is not healthy. If you're fighting thrush & it's not clearing up there is a reason........ Sara Jean do you care to explain further? I will get more pics tmrw. She is barefoot. This particular foot grows funny and no one really knows what to do. Her foot grows odd. She always grows a lot of bar in that hoof and the heels always seem contracted. If thrush cannot be gotten rid of what else could be going on? I know we got rid of most of it. She lives in a pen with a run in and I ride her regular. What does it look like when they shed the frog?
OK these pics are from 3-4 weeks ago BEFORE she was trimmed- she was overdo. there is actually like the frog is cracked in half. this hoof has been an issue since I have had her. we took most the bar out, dead sole, trimmed her FLAT all the way around and tried to get her frog back in contact with the ground. She went through a bad spell of thrush when it was staying nice and muddy from the lovely ice storms we had.
Edited by Whoop Z Day Z 2014-03-20 11:59 PM
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| You are dealing with a boxed hoof and a farrier that is making it worse. There is no excuse for removing the bars in a hoof and digging down that deep into the sole.
The bars are the hoof wall restraints a horse has to keep the hoof from over flexing and creating internal soreness and more problems.
Look at the hoof rim ... this foot is landing on the toe instead of the heel first ... the heel hoof wall is so tall the heel bulbs aren't even coming close to touching the ground which are the main blood pump for the frog and hoof ... note the curve on the exposed hoof wall at the heel ... this can be worked out by very slowly rasping the heels down over the next 6-12 months ... Does she toe out?? ... the pressed straw shows where she is bearing her weight and the outside hoof wall shows more wear ... and her frog is crooked ... (more sole on the outside than inside)
As her heels are slowly lowered this will allow the toe to move back and the frog to regen and hopefully the frogs pointed end will be about 2 inches from the front hoof wall after everything gets shifted when this hoof starts landing heel first instead of toe slapping ...
Also .. make your farrier leave his knife in the truck ... there is no reason to ever trim a frog other than a few hanging strings which he can use his fingernail clippers for that.
This isn't even my horse and seeing the bars and heel removed in pretense of correcting a contracted heel makes me angry ...
I would not ride this horse until I could see some well defined bars grow back in and hoof wall grow back in at the heel along with the bulbs showing signs of touching the ground ...
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2014-03-21 12:42 AM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I agree you have a contracted foot, but I have to disagree with Barrel Horse USA on some things.
If this was my horse, and I have been battling thrush I would trim the frog down till I had healthy frog tissue, as thrush likes cool, and moist spots, such as dead frog, I trim back till I don't see any black.
Also there is conflicting research on the bars of the foot, some say they cause contraction, and some say they don't.
How the foot works is when the horse places the foot on the ground, the frog drops allowing the blood to enter the foot as the foot expands. When the foot lifts off the ground the frog springs back up into the foot and pushes the blood back out of the foot.
For the foot to expand, the farrier should be trimming the sole 1/2" all the way around the frog. The dead tissue inhibits the flexibility of the frog. Also the hoof wall of the toe should be rasped from the cornet band all the way down thinner then the rest of the foot, as the toe needs to have give for the heels to be able to expand. If the toe has no flexibility the heels can't expand.
I would also start applying fish oil to the cornet of the feet to aid in the flexibility.
On this horse the heels have curled in, I would actually have the farrier cut those down completey and start managing from there.
Pete Ramsay has a good book on the natural hoof care |
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Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | Granted I'd much rather look at recently trimmed pictures with a clean foot but I don't like how your horse is trimmed at all. Overall the horse has way to much hoof, much more than just being late for a trimming. The heels are contracted & underrun, toe is to long, hard to say for sure without a clean foot but I'd say there is a lot of dead sole & curled over bars that need to be cleaned out....I'd also clean up as much of the dead nasty frog as I can to make it easier to treat. But you definately won't get the frog healthy without getting the entire hoof healthy. I'd would bet that she is landing to first when she travels & you need her landing heel first.
My starting point if I trimmed her would be to pull the heels back as far as I safely could, they won't go nearly short enough in 1 trim to get the frog close to ground contact but I would do a little rasping every 2-3 weeks to keep making progress instead of waiting for the next trim. I would take out all dead sole & clean up the crushed bars. Bring the toe back to the white line with a pretty strong toe bevel. Clean all the dead frog up that I could & keep treating the thrush. I wouldn't wait 6-8 weeks for the next trim, I would be adjusting this mare's feet every 2-3 weeks so that I get ahead of things & start making progress.
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 Expert
Posts: 1284
Location: Oklahoma | Get the heels down and in balance or she will never had a frog. The frog needs stimulation from the ground and a balanced hoof to thrive, as well as a low NSC diet.
Here is a comparison on my horse. Notice how the heels have moved back, the frog is larger and the whole hoof has more concavity.
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 Sock eating dog owner
Posts: 4557
Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | Leave this horse bare foot and go ride down a rocky road on a daily basis. No hard fast running. The rocks will put pressure on the frog and stimulate the blood. Clean the hooves up a bit more as in trim. Use providone/iodine to clear the thrush daily. Your horse might get a little ouchy but don't worry to much your making the frog create new growth. For a topical feed use a product containing DL Methionie in large portions and biotin. The Dl Methionine produces a very spongy/ rubbery hoof. GOOD LuCK |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 349
| SaraJean - 2014-03-21 8:41 AM
Granted I'd much rather look at recently trimmed pictures with a clean foot but I don't like how your horse is trimmed at all. Overall the horse has way to much hoof, much more than just being late for a trimming. The heels are contracted & underrun, toe is to long, hard to say for sure without a clean foot but I'd say there is a lot of dead sole & curled over bars that need to be cleaned out....I'd also clean up as much of the dead nasty frog as I can to make it easier to treat. But you definately won't get the frog healthy without getting the entire hoof healthy. I'd would bet that she is landing to first when she travels & you need her landing heel first.
My starting point if I trimmed her would be to pull the heels back as far as I safely could, they won't go nearly short enough in 1 trim to get the frog close to ground contact but I would do a little rasping every 2-3 weeks to keep making progress instead of waiting for the next trim. I would take out all dead sole & clean up the crushed bars. Bring the toe back to the white line with a pretty strong toe bevel. Clean all the dead frog up that I could & keep treating the thrush. I wouldn't wait 6-8 weeks for the next trim, I would be adjusting this mare's feet every 2-3 weeks so that I get ahead of things & start making progress.
Completely agree with this. But I will add my newest horse went through a similar recuperation and I wasn't able to get his feet looking and FEELING good until I started backing up the heels with a rasp every two weeks(nothing major just a little at a time) and just rasping out any chips. She doesn't look like chipping is an issue but it helps keep the hoof even as well. |
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Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | cow pie - 2014-03-21 10:14 PM Leave this horse bare foot and go ride down a rocky road on a daily basis. No hard fast running. The rocks will put pressure on the frog and stimulate the blood. Clean the hooves up a bit more as in trim. Use providone/iodine to clear the thrush daily. Your horse might get a little ouchy but don't worry to much your making the frog create new growth. For a topical feed use a product containing DL Methionie in large portions and biotin. The Dl Methionine produces a very spongy/ rubbery hoof. GOOD LuCK
Not arguing, but I don't agree with this. IMO the horse needs to be comfortable to get them traveling correctly. Riding a bunch on rocks is likely to make her sore (especially if the farrier takes off even close to as much foot as needs to come off). I would much rather see the horse in a good set of boots & pads, or even shod with pads & impression material if that's what it takes to get stimulation to the frog and keep her comfortable. I'm all for keeping a horse barefoot when possible & I have no issue with riding on rocks (currently conditioning my shooting horse down our gravel road as it's my only option) but it wouldn't be the route I'd likely go with this horse. |
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Sock eating dog owner
Posts: 4557
Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | Putting pads on this horse will make it worse. The horse is standing straight up, there is hardly anything a farrier can do at this point. Leave the horse barefoot and go ride down a rocky road. The horse needs the stimulation to expand and will break off parts of the hoof where he needs as he is traveling without the farrier trimming down to short to put him at the angles that he should be at. Riding this horse barefoot over rocky terrain will speed up the expansion of the hoof, create new frog and overall healthy feet. It will take 6 months to get this horses angles right with a farrier puting on pads on an already contracted hoof before he creates a healthy hoof or frog. This process can be cut in half the time without laming the horse and the expense of shoes and pads and numerous xrays and bute by simply leaving the horse barefoot and riding down rocky roads, just a little common sense in doing so by simply taking that horse for a leaisurely trail ride. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| cow pie - 2014-03-22 12:32 AM
Putting pads on this horse will make it worse. The horse is standing straight up, there is hardly anything a farrier can do at this point. Leave the horse barefoot and go ride down a rocky road. The horse needs the stimulation to expand and will break off parts of the hoof where he needs as he is traveling without the farrier trimming down to short to put him at the angles that he should be at. Riding this horse barefoot over rocky terrain will speed up the expansion of the hoof, create new frog and overall healthy feet. It will take 6 months to get this horses angles right with a farrier puting on pads on an already contracted hoof before he creates a healthy hoof or frog. This process can be cut in half the time without laming the horse and the expense of shoes and pads and numerous xrays and bute by simply leaving the horse barefoot and riding down rocky roads, just a little common sense in doing so by simply taking that horse for a leaisurely trail ride.
I have to disagree with gong down the road as well, a rocky road can cause bruising which in severe cases can cause founder, and in less severe cases cause horrible abscesses.
I suggest getting a good farrier and rasping the toe wall, moisturizing, removing dead sole, trimming the sole 1/2" all the way around the frog, and trimming the heels down so they no longer curl in. |
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Miss Not Exciting
Posts: 3279
Location: Ft Worth TX | Any other horse I would be fine working on rocks. But I fought for 8 months with abscesses with this horse when I lived where she always had to be on gravel. Now for the frog could I pack her hoof with magic cushion considering it hardens after a few days and looks like leather and leave it in to fill that void some?
On another note- I know how to run a rasp well. When you say rasp back the toe I assume you are say have the hoof on the stand and rasp the outside of the hoof back correct? |
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 Can You Hear Me Now?
Location: When you hit the middle of nowhere .. Keep driving | Is there a chance she's got a clubbed foot or foundered already. I've had a farrier tell me they grow heel when they foundered and the bone has rotated? I agree with everyone I don't like how it's trimmed at all.
Edited by ndiehl 2014-03-22 9:45 AM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Whoop what I mean is rasp the toe hoof wall from the cornet band down to the toe, this has to be thinner to allow the flexion. Also to back the toe up to back the heels, to rasp the hoof wall back to the lamania.
I have a foundered horse, I would say her toe grows faster then her heel, she is a horrible founder under run heels and contracted heels so we back the toe up to the white line, and trim her heels back. We also cut her bars out, remove all dead sole, and remove the sole 1/2" around the frog till we pretty much hit blood.
Everything we do is under direction of the vet, my mare got this way as she abscesses more then not. I finally got smart and started putting boots on her so she no longer bruises and abscesses.
I suggest every horse owner should buy Dave Ramsay book |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1118
Location: The South | I recently went barefoot and the farrier told me to try HOOF HEAL and it is amazing! It's basically turpentine and linseed oil with some other stuff thrown in there but I love it. I noticed a sticker on it said it won the "best thrush treatment" award from a horse magazine so maybe you could try it for your horse?
I also highly recommend Pete Ramey's book. It's not hard to read and it explained stuff so well. I'm just now getting myself educated on hooves and trimming, it can be overwhelming. |
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