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  A Lady with Fight
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Location: NC | I took my herd to the chiro yesterday and took an equine production class from my college with me. I had a blast the last time I saw this Dr work on my horses and I wanted to share the knowledge he shared with me. Anyways, while he was checking over my horse (who has NEVER been adjusted before in his 12 years of life) and he found a sore spot. He does an acupuncture exam first that tells him where the horse is sore, then does the chiro exam. He was sore in the spot that was for his heels. So he went to get the hoof testers and my horse all but snatched his foot away when he applied any amount of pressure. He wasn't sore on the other heel though.
This horse hasn't had any other issues in his life. He has had a pretty easy life up until last year when I started hauling him decently heavy (almost every weekend). He's been barefoot his entire life, with awesome solid feet, until I decided to shoe his fronts for this season, since he is VERY sensitive on rocks/hard ground. I haven't seen any soreness issues with him, besides still being pretty sensitive on rocky ground even with shoes.
He recommended to push his break over point back and to add a 2 or 3 degree wedge. I'm just heartbroken in a way, that I had no idea he was in some sort of pain. Do sore heels ALWAYS mean navicular? Can you stop it in its tracks if you catch it early enough?
Edited by hlynn 2014-03-21 5:24 PM
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 304
Location: Up and over to the right | X-ray if you're worried about navicular. My farrier stopped the navicular in my last horse from getting worse with degree pads and bar shoes but he never was sound for long. |
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 Jr. Detective
  
Location: Beggs, OK | Every case of heel soreness I've ever had went away with a farrier change. We had one in wedge shoes and getting coffin joints injected every 4-6 months. I changed farriers and he no longer needs any sort of special maintenance. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Contracted heels can also cause sore heels, I would suggest taking the horse to the vet, flex, block, then X-ray. |
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | rachellyn80 - 2014-03-21 5:48 PM
Every case of heel soreness I've ever had went away with a farrier change. We had one in wedge shoes and getting coffin joints injected every 4-6 months. I changed farriers and he no longer needs any sort of special maintenance.
I trust the farrier. He's turned around several of my horses. I have no doubt he knows what he's doing. We had a farrier before that was junk. This one we have now is awesome.
We had a horse do the same thing last time. Turns out he was just sore for some other reason. When the farrier came to do his feet a few weeks later, we brought out the hoof testers and he didn't flinch at all on either foot. Same horse was with me yesterday and he showed no signs of soreness without any corrective shoeing in the year since he was last examined.
I'm thinking he just stepped on something wrong, since it was only the one foot and not the other. And he's not lame in any way. I rode him Wednesday without any issues. He did everything I asked. So he's either super stoic or he just stepped on a rock and he has a bruise.
Like I said, he has SUPER SUPER sensitive feet. He tip toes over rocks with or without shoes.
Is it normal for them to be sore on one foot but not the other if it really is navicular?
Edited by hlynn 2014-03-21 5:00 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 1617
Location: Oklahoma | I wouldn't get even the least bit worried until I had a DVM DIAGNOSIS from a good equine vet. Just because a horse is a little sore in his front feet doesn't make him navicular. Anymore, that term is so overused, 90% of horses sore in their front feet aren't a true navicular horse. |
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | dinero7783 - 2014-03-21 6:13 PM
I wouldn't get even the least bit worried until I had a DVM DIAGNOSIS from a good equine vet. Just because a horse is a little sore in his front feet doesn't make him navicular. Anymore, that term is so overused, 90% of horses sore in their front feet aren't a true navicular horse.
He is an equine vet. He just happens to also be a chiro and acupuncturist.
But I think you're right about it being over diagnosed. I know you can't be too careful, but I just have this gut feeling that he's fine, just bruised or a pansy on his feet.
I'm getting up with a more local vet to see how much she's charging for x-rays. How much is the going rate? Never had to have them done before. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| hlynn - 2014-03-21 5:16 PM
dinero7783 - 2014-03-21 6:13 PM
I wouldn't get even the least bit worried until I had a DVM DIAGNOSIS from a good equine vet. Just because a horse is a little sore in his front feet doesn't make him navicular. Anymore, that term is so overused, 90% of horses sore in their front feet aren't a true navicular horse.
He is an equine vet. He just happens to also be a chiro and acupuncturist.
But I think you're right about it being over diagnosed. I know you can't be too careful, but I just have this gut feeling that he's fine, just bruised or a pansy on his feet.
I'm getting up with a more local vet to see how much she's charging for x-rays. How much is the going rate? Never had to have them done before.
If he was an equine vet why did he not block then X-ray? |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | cheryl makofka - 2014-03-21 7:20 PM
hlynn - 2014-03-21 5:16 PM
dinero7783 - 2014-03-21 6:13 PM
I wouldn't get even the least bit worried until I had a DVM DIAGNOSIS from a good equine vet. Just because a horse is a little sore in his front feet doesn't make him navicular. Anymore, that term is so overused, 90% of horses sore in their front feet aren't a true navicular horse.
He is an equine vet. He just happens to also be a chiro and acupuncturist.
But I think you're right about it being over diagnosed. I know you can't be too careful, but I just have this gut feeling that he's fine, just bruised or a pansy on his feet.
I'm getting up with a more local vet to see how much she's charging for x-rays. How much is the going rate? Never had to have them done before.
If he was an equine vet why did he not block then X-ray?
My thoughts too  |
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 Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| You won't know until you take xrays. I'm surprised this wasn't done while you were there. |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| I had some soundness issues with my 10yo gelding. Carried him to a vet we thermoscam my horse. When the vet walked up to my horse and first thing he told me was, my farrier did a great job on my horse. The we thermoscan him, first thing that came up hot was his front heels, mind you he was on a 56 degree angle. And his left hock. We did xrays of front feet and found inside angle was lower than outside. And the vet made a boo boo as he only xrayed one hock, if he is fusing one hock the likleyhood of the other being sore, after show season he was so sore i said he has off until i see some of soreness leave. I had sinus surgery after christmas and once imstarted feeling better, it has been nasty here, i had a funeral of a horse related person to go too and i talking to a vet that i have know for years we where talking about my situation and she came by the office and i showed her those xrays she said what i said and we are going to do xrays on ther other side. But i think i am going to buy a cheap horse and let my gelding out to fuse.
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | The thing is, my horse isn't lame. He reacted to the hoof testers, but doesn't take a lame step. He walks, trots, lopes perfectly normal. This is why I'm confused.
And he didn't say "you horse has navicular". He just told me to try him with some wedges and to change the break over point and see if it helped. He didn't tell me he had any issues, just that I might want to make some slight changes to take some stress off of the tendons by changing how he was shod.
Like I said, I'm trying to get some x-rays done at some point. Once I find a vet that can do them.
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 More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | Xray if your concerned. |
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | CYA Ranch - 2014-03-21 9:23 PM
Xray if your concerned.
That's the plan...... |
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 Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | I would x-ray & see if there is navicular issues or not. I absolutely would NOT put wedges on a horse simply because he tested sore to a hoof tester! |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| hlynn - 2014-03-21 8:19 PM
The thing is, my horse isn't lame. He reacted to the hoof testers, but doesn't take a lame step. He walks, trots, lopes perfectly normal. This is why I'm confused.
And he didn't say "you horse has navicular". He just told me to try him with some wedges and to change the break over point and see if it helped. He didn't tell me he had any issues, just that I might want to make some slight changes to take some stress off of the tendons by changing how he was shod.
Like I said, I'm trying to get some x-rays done at some point. Once I find a vet that can do them.
I will never put wedges on a horse, there are many better alternatives to treating a navicular horse before going to wedges.
I also wouldn't ever treat a horse without the medical proof the horse needs to be treated, ie block, X-ray, ultrasound |
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | SaraJean - 2014-03-21 9:30 PM I would x-ray & see if there is navicular issues or not. I absolutely would NOT put wedges on a horse simply because he tested sore to a hoof tester!
ditto.. and for one thing one hoof isnt sore..
wedges can change things..
such drastic measures for one sore heel.. no.. id get another opinion.. |
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | Bibliafarm - 2014-03-21 10:36 PM
SaraJean - 2014-03-21 9:30 PM I would x-ray & see if there is navicular issues or not. I absolutely would NOT put wedges on a horse simply because he tested sore to a hoof tester!
ditto.. and for one thing one hoof isnt sore..
wedges can change things..
such drastic measures for one sore heel.. no.. id get another opinion..
Hence why I asked about it on here. Something just doesn't sit right.
Trying to get x-rays soon, but I just dropped a significant amount on teeth, coggins, adjustments and fuel this week so they may have to wait until pay day. lol
But no, I'm not going out tomorrow and slapping wedges on him. |
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 Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| The only reason I'd put wedges on one is after x-rays to see if the angles need changed. We've put a couple in wedges as we worked toward correcting their angles. I would be more concerned about the tender soles and wonder if the pain was related to that. |
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | Jenbabe - 2014-03-21 10:43 PM
The only reason I'd put wedges on one is after x-rays to see if the angles need changed. We've put a couple in wedges as we worked toward correcting their angles. I would be more concerned about the tender soles and wonder if the pain was related to that.
He's not due for a few more weeks and I'm not going to slap wedges on out of nowhere without some hard evidence. That's not how I am. With the other horse, we let him go until his next shoeing and by that time he wasn't even sore anymore.
He came up three legged lame last year from a bruise. I thought for sure he had an abscess, but nothing ever blew out. I just soaked it, packed it with poultice, then he was better overnight. Never took another bad step. Only thing I could think of was a bruise. I guess he's just a thin soled sensitive horse. He's fine in the pasture (we live in a very sandy area) and he's fine running. Just tip toes over rocks is all.
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 Veteran
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| Blocking the heel can pinpoint the lameness. Also x-rays don't always show navicular as there can be soft tissue damage. A horse that is navicular particularly in one hoof usually has a more contracted heel on that foot as well as sometimes suspensory or tendon soreness on that leg |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 503
| CocoChex - 2014-03-21 10:17 PM
Blocking the heel can pinpoint the lameness. Also x-rays don't always show navicular as there can be soft tissue damage. A horse that is navicular particularly in one hoof usually has a more contracted heel on that foot as well as sometimes suspensory or tendon soreness on that leg
Agreed. My mare didn't show any bone changes on the X-ray but her soft tissue was damaged and her heels were sore - thus dubbed "navicular". Her one foot developed first and then later we came to find out it was both feet.
Edited by LuckyNGG'sGirl 2014-03-21 11:14 PM
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Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| hlynn - 2014-03-21 9:55 PM
Jenbabe - 2014-03-21 10:43 PM
The only reason I'd put wedges on one is after x-rays to see if the angles need changed. We've put a couple in wedges as we worked toward correcting their angles. I would be more concerned about the tender soles and wonder if the pain was related to that.
He's not due for a few more weeks and I'm not going to slap wedges on out of nowhere without some hard evidence. That's not how I am. With the other horse, we let him go until his next shoeing and by that time he wasn't even sore anymore.
He came up three legged lame last year from a bruise. I thought for sure he had an abscess, but nothing ever blew out. I just soaked it, packed it with poultice, then he was better overnight. Never took another bad step. Only thing I could think of was a bruise. I guess he's just a thin soled sensitive horse. He's fine in the pasture (we live in a very sandy area ) and he's fine running. Just tip toes over rocks is all.
I wasn't implying that you would put shoes on without evidence. I was just sharing my opinion about wedges since some people are totally against them. I think that there is a time and place if they are necessary for the soundness of a horse.
My concern about the thin soles would be if you plan to continue hauling him. You might have to look into shoes and pads to keep his feet comfortable on those other types of ground. Otherwise you might be fighting sore feet more often, especially if this current pain is from the thin soles. |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| I had a VERY well regarded lameness vet tell me that my horse most likely had navicular , AFTER he told me that the digital xrays were clean. and AFTER I had told him that the mare consistently dropped 8 degrees or more in one front foot in six weeks (we had already been resetting her every 3 weeks). He did allow that it "could " be a deep digital flexor injury, which with her history made more sense. he told me to put wedge shoes on her , which made no sense at all because she would STILL drop angle in that foot.
SO I took her back to my regular vet, we did shock wave and have had no issues since and that was maybe 6 years ago.
So No, navicular is NOT the only source of heel pain. Not to mention the abcess thing. |
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Member
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Location: California | CocoChex - 2014-03-21 10:17 PM
Blocking the heel can pinpoint the lameness. Also x-rays don't always show navicular as there can be soft tissue damage. A horse that is navicular particularly in one hoof usually has a more contracted heel on that foot as well as sometimes suspensory or tendon soreness on that leg
Thank you, if you want a true diagnosis, do an MRI.
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I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| Bankroll - 2014-03-22 2:57 PM
CocoChex - 2014-03-21 10:17 PM
Blocking the heel can pinpoint the lameness. Also x-rays don't always show navicular as there can be soft tissue damage. A horse that is navicular particularly in one hoof usually has a more contracted heel on that foot as well as sometimes suspensory or tendon soreness on that leg
Thank you, if you want a true diagnosis, do an MRI.
That is all well and good to get a definitive diagnosis, but who has that kind of money to drop on a horse that is not showing any lameness??!! |
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Member
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Location: California | rodeoveteran - 2014-03-22 3:02 PM
Bankroll - 2014-03-22 2:57 PM
CocoChex - 2014-03-21 10:17 PM
Blocking the heel can pinpoint the lameness. Also x-rays don't always show navicular as there can be soft tissue damage. A horse that is navicular particularly in one hoof usually has a more contracted heel on that foot as well as sometimes suspensory or tendon soreness on that leg
Thank you, if you want a true diagnosis, do an MRI.
That is all well and good to get a definitive diagnosis, but who has that kind of money to drop on a horse that is not showing any lameness??!!
When he show's pain to hoof tests and is sore on rocks and hard ground, I would consider the horse to be lame. That's just me. |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | My horse was "off" in his trot last year. Better some days; worse other days. Took him to my lameness vet and he had heel pain in both front feet, slight worse in the left. Took x-rays and there really weren't any navicular changes but his joint spaces looked a little crooked. Put 2 degree wedges on his, have him a week off with bute, and he was honestly cured. Pulled his shoes for winter and now that I'm legging him back up, he doesn't feel quite 100%. Shoes are going back on next weekend. Going to try a plain shoe with a pad and see how he responds to that. I want to avoid long-term wedges if I can, but if it works... Well, then it works. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| r_beau - 2014-03-22 5:34 PM
My horse was "off" in his trot last year. Better some days; worse other days. Took him to my lameness vet and he had heel pain in both front feet, slight worse in the left. Took x-rays and there really weren't any navicular changes but his joint spaces looked a little crooked. Put 2 degree wedges on his, have him a week off with bute, and he was honestly cured. Pulled his shoes for winter and now that I'm legging him back up, he doesn't feel quite 100%. Shoes are going back on next weekend. Going to try a plain shoe with a pad and see how he responds to that. I want to avoid long-term wedges if I can, but if it works... Well, then it works.
Pads can be worse for horses then wedges, as wedges you can gradually reduce with more heel growth.
Pads many things can occur under the pad without your knowledge such as seedy toe, white line disease, and thrush, these things like to grow in warm dark moist places, the pad gives this.
6 weeks is a long time to go without treatment, and most horses won't be lame till there is a lot of damage done to the foot.
I would also want an ultrasound to ensure there is no soft tissue damage causing the horse to be off, but my vet blocks, and depending on the block will X-ray, ultrasound, or both before a diagnosis and treatment plan is developed
Not to quote R Beau again, but antibiotic powder does not erradicate thrush, or seedy toe, or white line disease, as all three are caused by a fungus.
As with anything pertaining to your horse make sure you know what is going in and why it is going in
Edited by cheryl makofka 2014-03-22 7:55 PM
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | cheryl makofka - 2014-03-22 5:43 PM r_beau - 2014-03-22 5:34 PM My horse was "off" in his trot last year. Better some days; worse other days. Took him to my lameness vet and he had heel pain in both front feet, slight worse in the left. Took x-rays and there really weren't any navicular changes but his joint spaces looked a little crooked. Put 2 degree wedges on his, have him a week off with bute, and he was honestly cured. Pulled his shoes for winter and now that I'm legging him back up, he doesn't feel quite 100%. Shoes are going back on next weekend. Going to try a plain shoe with a pad and see how he responds to that. I want to avoid long-term wedges if I can, but if it works... Well, then it works. Pads can be worse for horses then wedges, as wedges you can gradually reduce with more heel growth. Pads many things can occur under the pad without your knowledge such as seedy toe, white line disease, and thrush, these things like to grow in warm dark moist places, the pad gives this. 6 weeks is a long time to go without treatment, and most horses won't be lame till there is a lot of damage done to the foot. I would also want an ultrasound to ensure there is no soft tissue damage causing the horse to be off, but my vet blocks, and depending on the block will X-ray, ultrasound, or both before a diagnosis and treatment plan is developed
This is not my thread so I don't want to hijack it by going into too much detail.
My horse has good heels. He doesn't need anymore growth. I personally feel that pads give a bit of extra protection. He gets his shoes reset every 5 weeks on the nose, and my farrier packs with anti- biotic powder (don't know the official name). He had pads with his wedges and I did not have a problem with them, although of course that doesn't mean it can't happen. |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| I had a nice mare who grew no heel on one front foot and too much heal on the other, what worked the best was to use nb shoes and uprite foot we would slide the shoe a little forward and the other one we would slide it back a little bit and use a pour in pad to help the foot all we could and i would file themtoe on that foot everymcouple of weeks to drive themtoe,back. This mare turned so,hard she would move her shoes even with eight nails front and back shoes one tough cookie.
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | Got him out today. Took my thumbs and squeezed his heels and frog with all my might and he didn't move. Even used the hoof pick and put some pressure on the area and he was fine. Maybe he just didn't take too kindly to someone squeezing the snot out of his foot. Lol. He rode fine. Nothing was really off. His usual turd self.
I really think it was a freak thing. He's not lame at all. So I'm really not worried about it. If he goes lame, then I'll go in depth to figure out why. But I think we're alright for now.
Thanks for all the suggestions and stories. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| hlynn - 2014-03-22 8:27 PM
Got him out today. Took my thumbs and squeezed his heels and frog with all my might and he didn't move. Even used the hoof pick and put some pressure on the area and he was fine. Maybe he just didn't take too kindly to someone squeezing the snot out of his foot. Lol. He rode fine. Nothing was really off. His usual turd self.
I really think it was a freak thing. He's not lame at all. So I'm really not worried about it. If he goes lame, then I'll go in depth to figure out why. But I think we're alright for now.
Thanks for all the suggestions and stories.
Fingers don't work, you actually need hoof testers. For a hot nail you can get away with using pliers, but to test for localized pain in the foot you need the hoof testers.
It is your horse, what you do or don't do with your horse is your decision.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
| dinero7783 - 2014-03-21 3:13 PM
I wouldn't get even the least bit worried until I had a DVM DIAGNOSIS from a good equine vet. Just because a horse is a little sore in his front feet doesn't make him navicular. Anymore, that term is so overused, 90% of horses sore in their front feet aren't a true navicular horse.
^^^^^^^^^^ This  |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 928
Location: Northern CA | My heel sore horse was diagnosed with DDF Tendonitis. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | One of my gelding's had a sore heel for about a week was a back foot, I think he either was kicking at another horse and he hit the fence, are my other gelding run up behind him and froged him. A week with stall rest and soft ground he's back to feeling normal again. |
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 Mature beyond Years
Posts: 10780
Location: North of the 49th Parallel | My "navicular" was actually a tear in the lateral suspensory of the navicular bone. No changes in the actual navicular bone. Wedges and Vetalog in the coffin bone did the trick. |
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Pads are not always a bad thing if handled properly and applied properly- IMO.
Reata Equine Podiatry in Weatherford Tx is the Rood and Riddle foot specialists of the Southwest. They are very serious that a horse with foot lameness issues NEED PROTECTION- ie pad and softrides at ALL times when on anything less that soft ground. That means in your horse trailer-on rocks, on concrete, on hard dirt- protect protect protect to let the horse heal.
And I agree on the MRI- and also agree that it is not viable for most expecially in this early stage. But if you call your your horse a wuss or always tender footed, at the very least you need to start with Xrays and do your best to protect him. |
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Boot Detective
Posts: 1900
| I agree with Dinero. I want to add that sore heels can be caused by a lot of different things. If a horse has low heels (low angles) which are common in thoroughbreds, they are more likely to get sore heels because they are landing on their heels. If a shoer pares the sole too thin (very common) they will get tender footed. Some horses just won't grow a thick sole either.....genetic thing. If the farrier puts a shoe on that is TOO SMALL (also very common), as the hoof grows and the toe gets longer, the shoe will seem to "move forward" and leave the heel with no shoe underneath it. Then you have a double edged sword working against you because the heel is getting bruised by hitting the ground and is worsened because it is dropping off the back of the shoe. Over-reaching will also make them sore. So many things besides navicular. I have a horse with thin soles and I keep him shod with pour in pads and have no problems with it. Every time we reset him I personally look at his feet and check for thrush, etc.... and have not had a problem but I try to keep him on dry ground too. A GOOD vet would never tell you to shoe with wedges without taking good digital xrays and seeing the horse's angles to determine they need it. You should always shoe the natural foot. Changing angles with wedges changes the wear on the pastern and ankle joints and can cause them to wear through the cartilage and have bones rubbing bones. |
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Do sore heels ALWAYS mean navicular?