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Lickable I mean Likeable
Posts: 3965
    
Location: De Berry, Tx | I bought a running bred paint gelding labor day of 2012. He was patterned but not hauled and green. He was an 8 yr old at the time. The girl tome when she did haul him a few times he was in the 3d. I get him home, he has a really nice handle doesn't really use himself correctly around the barrels. He woukd drop his shoulder and sling his butt. So we put headgear that I can work him in and teach him to use himself correctly. This horse is fast and strong. Our first outing is a covered pen I exhibition him a couple times and make my run. He hung up on the first but no big deal he is green. He wins the 4d, great something to build on. I start hauling him more. I notice he has an issue still with the first. Its not like a total green horse where they just need time he had anxiety to the first and then fine to the rest. I never know it until I hit the alley. Ok by spring of 2013 he is a second off sometimes less getting better and better. April he over reaches on his coronary band and I have to get off if him to let it grow out. I was able to get back on him September of last year to leg up. I take him to his first run and he runs up the fence. He did it once before I got off of him that is how I knew his injury was actually bothering him. He wouldnt limp until I had him vetted. He hurt in a circle. Ok so I start looking for anything else that may be causing him to run up the fence and find his saddle doesnt fit. It is to narrow and pinches. So I spend a small fortune in saddles and chiro to get his body straight and get a saddle that fits him. I have slow loped him to the first for months. I have taken him to two shows in the last month. The first one I exhibition he smokes the first I take him in for his run he freaks in the alley wont catch the right lead tries to not turn the first but works great after. So I bring him back home and do more slow work and this past weekend I take him to a show. I decided to try no exhibition and maybe a little guanabenz to help with the anxiety. This is a covered pen with a closed alley so no lope a circle just go right in and ask him to work. He warms up great acts perfect until I get into the alley, head goes up and he freezes, he doesnt want to go. I encourage him to go thinking he will loosen up. Nope, he barely goes to the first in the wrong lead (again) and trots around the first. I am at a total loss right now on what to do. I did everything right taking him slow and bringing him back slow. He practices great. This is a horse that was bumping the 2d loping to the first now I cant get a pattern out of him. I have been told to take him left but I dont know. Is there anyone that rehabs horses that can help? He has always had anxiety going to the first but it was getting better and better. Any one switch a horse to the opposite direction and it help or will it all transfer? He acts blown up but had no reason to be. I have entered and just loped the pattern trying to keep him calm. Please help totally at a loss here! Sorry so long. |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | Sounds to me that he's associating the arena with pain......just my opinion.
Do you do anything else with him? And your sure he isn't sore anywhere else?
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Lickable I mean Likeable
Posts: 3965
Location: De Berry, Tx | He isnt sore anywhere. I have nothing else to do with him. He is very hot and wont trail ride and cows are not an option he is to spooky. I have taken him to arenas and just rode him and not done a pattern. He is fine every where except when we hit the alley at a show. I have paid 10 at small shows just to ease him through but I cant really do that spending 35 or more. |
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 I Chore in Chucks
Posts: 2882
Location: MD | So I may have not read this correctly, and I don't want to offend you.
You have taken all of the steps in the pain dept. He exhibitions well and then he runs up the fence. I'm going to guess before you run you're sending him some distress signals that's now causing this that you aren't sending him when you're exhibitioning him! I would say this is way more mental than you may expect. I have never had a horse that runs up the fence that has kept with it this long. In regards to switching him to the left, if it doesn't work, then switch him back. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 113
Location: Tx | We switched my college mare. Hard to handle, free runner, with an attitude... I patterned her consistently for 5 or 6 months on the left (she was 15 at the time) and after that I could choose which way I wanted to run depending on the pen. It made her really listen to me and pay attention. |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Do you run on bute? I know you said you'd checked him pretty thoroughly, but if you don't, just to ABSOLUTELY rule out the pain issue, you might try him on that and see how he does. If he runs better, something may have been missed.
But otherwise, I agree with other posters that it might be psychological on your end, sending him mixed signals. I do that really bad. Really sensitive horses can pick up your frustration and nervousness and then mirror it. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2154
Location: USA | I've got a mare that had hock and stifle issues and we only knew it when she was at a full run on the pattern. She would pop up at the first barrel then go around it. And she would act all goofy in the alley. Once we figured out what it was and fixed the issue, we then had to work to let her know she wasn't hurting anymore.
I would take her to a show and just walk her around. I'd walk her back and forth in front of the alleyway. Then I'd tie her to the trailer for a while. Then ride her some more. I didn't run her for about 3-4 shows trying to work out some of the anxiety. When I did run her, I only exhibitioned her and ran to the left first. She did fine. I then got some friends together and we were working our horses on the pattern and she was getting antsy, WANTING to run. So I ran her going to the right and she did great.
Now I have a gelding who had a first barrel issue. He would act all blown up and he has only been running a year. I decided to switch him to the left first and he still did it, That's when I knew something was wrong. Vetted him and he had a fetlock issue, Now I'll be taking him and exhibitioning him to make sure he realizes he's not hurting anymore.
In my experience, I think if you switch him and he is not hurting, you should be fine. If you switch him and he still acts up, then he still has an issue somewhere. |
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Lickable I mean Likeable
Posts: 3965
Location: De Berry, Tx | Crowned Image - 2014-03-24 10:57 AMSo I may have not read this correctly, and I don't want to offend you.You have taken all of the steps in the pain dept. He exhibitions well and then he runs up the fence. I'm going to guess before you run you're sending him some distress signals that's now causing this that you aren't sending him when you're exhibitioning him! I would say this is way more mental than you may expect. I have never had a horse that runs up the fence that has kept with it this long. In regards to switching him to the left, if it doesn't work, then switch him back. You are totally not going to offend me. The first run I did get really nervous and will take the blame. The one this weekend I wasn't. However I usually am able to circle him to set him up and that helps. I didnt know this arena was set up like this because I have never been there. He has only ran up the fence twice the last two times I have run him I stopped him before he even got too far off the pattern. Normally he would just run by the barrel. I will say I have switched his bit trying to keep him from running by. That may be inducing it too. Any advice would be appreciated.
Edited by barrelracer4sure 2014-03-24 11:18 AM
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Lickable I mean Likeable
Posts: 3965
Location: De Berry, Tx | oija - 2014-03-24 11:04 AM
Do you run on bute? I know you said you'd checked him pretty thoroughly, but if you don't, just to ABSOLUTELY rule out the pain issue, you might try him on that and see how he does. If he runs better, something may have been missed.
But otherwise, I agree with other posters that it might be psychological on your end, sending him mixed signals. I do that really bad. Really sensitive horses can pick up your frustration and nervousness and then mirror it.
I will try that. Thank you. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | My opinion, your vet has missed something. Not bashing your choice of vets by any means, but it happens. A lot more than people think it does. Just because your vet says well I can't find anything else wrong with him he should be fine, doesn't mean there isn't something else.
They way you're describing him as getting worse since he was treated tells me that he's still in pain somewhere. If the problem had been fixed, sure it may take a little while for them to get better, but they certainly shouldn't be getting worse.
Also, I had one start ducking off the 2nd with me. I had him vetted thought we solved the problem and brought him back. Still doing it. He would not do it in slow work, wouldn't do in practice RUNS at home, wouldn't even do it if I actually ran him in an exhibition. Only ducked when it counted. People swore it had to be me. I was signaling him in some way. Finally got him to a vet that would listen, scanned his front legs and they lit up like a Christmas tree, arthritis in both, poor horse was in severe pain. (This had been missed by several vets before, all of them looking at him several times). After that was taken care of he came back VERY quickly.
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Fire Ant Peddler
Posts: 2881
| TEETH |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | I had a friend that had a horse that sounds just like this. He would be fine practicing, but try to compete and he would run off. She spent a small fortune and finally found out what was wrong with him. He has enlarged hind suspensories, and they get enflamed and hurt him when he makes tight turns. They don't hurt him when he goes straight, therefore, the trouble with the vets finding where he was sore, because 99% of them flex them and then trot straight. He had to be put into a tight circle AT SPEED for it to show. She is heartbroken, but is glad she finally found out what was causing it....and that it wasn't her. This horse had also been on the racetrack and we suspect that the injury was there even then, and we just didn't know it because, as I said, it only presents a problem at the kind of speed you use when you compete....he can do 3/4 speed all day long and never have a problem. I would suspect that your horse has an injury similar to this, probably from the racetrack....if you've never had rear suspensories checked, you might want to do that....I'd also suggest palpating the pelvis for a separation or crack (something else that never shows until you decide to make small circles at a high speed) and if you don't want to do this, I would suggest a different career, because I'd almost lay big money that it's an old injury causing this behavior. |
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Lickable I mean Likeable
Posts: 3965
Location: De Berry, Tx | He is race bred but never been raced. But something to definitely check. My vet does circle them on concrete but only at a trot. |
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas | From what you describe, I'd bet money he's ate up with ulcers. I'd start there.
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Regular
Posts: 99
| Switch directions to the first barrel. If you go to the right barrel first, go to the left first. |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | From what you describe, I'd bet money he's ate up with ulcers. I'd start there.
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Regular
Posts: 99
| Switch directions to the first barrel. If you go to the right barrel first, go to the left first. |
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Lickable I mean Likeable
Posts: 3965
Location: De Berry, Tx | grinandbareit - 2014-03-24 12:35 PM
From what you describe, I'd bet money he's ate up with ulcers. I'd start there.
He did have ulcers. I have him cleared of that. |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I agree that trying him on bute isnt a bad idea. Least you will figure out if its physical or mental.
If its mental, I would switch him to the left. That can alleviate some of the stress. I would also try getting him a job during the week. I am a firm believer in dressage, you really can work a horse both physically and mentally. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1273
Location: South Dakota | dianeguinn - 2014-03-24 12:24 PM I had a friend that had a horse that sounds just like this. He would be fine practicing, but try to compete and he would run off. She spent a small fortune and finally found out what was wrong with him. He has enlarged hind suspensories, and they get enflamed and hurt him when he makes tight turns. They don't hurt him when he goes straight, therefore, the trouble with the vets finding where he was sore, because 99% of them flex them and then trot straight. He had to be put into a tight circle AT SPEED for it to show. She is heartbroken, but is glad she finally found out what was causing it....and that it wasn't her. This horse had also been on the racetrack and we suspect that the injury was there even then, and we just didn't know it because, as I said, it only presents a problem at the kind of speed you use when you compete....he can do 3/4 speed all day long and never have a problem. I would suspect that your horse has an injury similar to this, probably from the racetrack....if you've never had rear suspensories checked, you might want to do that....I'd also suggest palpating the pelvis for a separation or crack (something else that never shows until you decide to make small circles at a high speed) and if you don't want to do this, I would suggest a different career, because I'd almost lay big money that it's an old injury causing this behavior.
That is weird, I had a horse that I got off the track that made a beautiful pattern at a high lope but couldn't make a hard first turn to the right for anything. You could move cows on him all day and he never had a lame step-just couldn't make that tight fast turn. I never did know what his problem was but was heartbroken cause he was such a fun, honest horse. I was really looking forward to hauling him. |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I agree that trying him on bute isnt a bad idea. Least you will figure out if its physical or mental.
If its mental, I would switch him to the left. That can alleviate some of the stress. I would also try getting him a job during the week. I am a firm believer in dressage, you really can work a horse both physically and mentally. |
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Expert
Posts: 1273
Location: South Dakota | dianeguinn - 2014-03-24 12:24 PM I had a friend that had a horse that sounds just like this. He would be fine practicing, but try to compete and he would run off. She spent a small fortune and finally found out what was wrong with him. He has enlarged hind suspensories, and they get enflamed and hurt him when he makes tight turns. They don't hurt him when he goes straight, therefore, the trouble with the vets finding where he was sore, because 99% of them flex them and then trot straight. He had to be put into a tight circle AT SPEED for it to show. She is heartbroken, but is glad she finally found out what was causing it....and that it wasn't her. This horse had also been on the racetrack and we suspect that the injury was there even then, and we just didn't know it because, as I said, it only presents a problem at the kind of speed you use when you compete....he can do 3/4 speed all day long and never have a problem. I would suspect that your horse has an injury similar to this, probably from the racetrack....if you've never had rear suspensories checked, you might want to do that....I'd also suggest palpating the pelvis for a separation or crack (something else that never shows until you decide to make small circles at a high speed) and if you don't want to do this, I would suggest a different career, because I'd almost lay big money that it's an old injury causing this behavior.
That is weird, I had a horse that I got off the track that made a beautiful pattern at a high lope but couldn't make a hard first turn to the right for anything. You could move cows on him all day and he never had a lame step-just couldn't make that tight fast turn. I never did know what his problem was but was heartbroken cause he was such a fun, honest horse. I was really looking forward to hauling him. |
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Member
Posts: 25
Location: siberia it seems | I had a horse with similiar anxiety in a speed situation. He had a chip on a vertebrate and another mare that was calm as the day is long, only showed anxiety at the gate, ended up having kissing spines. I know its frustrating, I hope you figure it out |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| A few things
You say the horse was hurting on circles. This tells me the horse is sore, did the vet block, flexion text, X-rays and ultrasound.
You say your horse has been treated for ulcers, ulcers can come back in as little as 3-5 days, if your horse had them once, he will get them again.
It doesn't matter if it is an alley or where you can circle, there is no reason for your horse to be on the wrong lead, you should be able to cue him to pick up the correct lead before you send him off. Especially if the horse has lost his confidence in you and barrels, this could be part of the problem.
It sounds like this horse doesn't have much for confidence, work on this, give him positive reassurance, ride him with confidence, these horses are tough to fix as they are always second guessing themselves.
Also for work outside of the arena, I know it sucks, but you need to try and get this horse relaxed, if he is spooky out on the trails, ride him through it, sit deep and relaxed. One of my good horses I hated riding him after the winter, he would spook at snowballs, vehicles going by, any reason he would spook, I still did it, and by summer he would finally settle down. |
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Location: Tumbleweed Capital of the World | Another thing to consider is his feet. I had a shoer almost cripple my horse but it wasn't detectable until I asked her to really work. If your horse is lame in a small circle, I'd start with that. Good luck with him, I know how frustrated it can be! |
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Lickable I mean Likeable
Posts: 3965
Location: De Berry, Tx | He WAS lame when he over reached a year ago. That has been fixed and he no longer limps in a circle. I wouldnt get back on until he was sound there. Wouldnt hr palpate sore over the back if it was kissing spine? I changed head gear today and started him to the left. It took a little bit to relax but when he did he was a 100 times calmer than he has ever been to the right. He also would sweat a lot when I worked him. He sweated like a normal horse and seemed happier if that makes sense. We only walked and trotted but I will continue to work him and keep a sharp eye out for anything that indicates he may be hurting. If he does it will go back to the vet. |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Pain. A trip to A&M may be in order.
When you practice, are you truly gunning through like at a show? Or doing slow work? |
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Lickable I mean Likeable
Posts: 3965
Location: De Berry, Tx | At home always slow work. If I feel I need to do speed work I will haul to an arena close by. When I first got him I spent lots of time working the alley because I kind of figured out the person that had him must have not worked one because was lost. But when I do work him fast he works. |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| The saddle problem where he was sore in his back, my gelding was,so,sore in hismback,with fusing hock even on previcox, someone told me mymsaddle was makig him,sore was not as imhad itmcustom made the year before never made,him sore. My gelding also,had lower angles in his feet than the outside so he had heel pain you need to start with a vet. Work on what you find and thenmsee what is sore.
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Lickable I mean Likeable
Posts: 3965
Location: De Berry, Tx | daisycake123 - 2014-03-25 6:13 AM
The saddle problem where he was sore in his back, my gelding was,so,sore in hismback,with fusing hock even on previcox, someone told me mymsaddle was makig him,sore was not as imhad itmcustom made the year before never made,him sore. My gelding also,had lower angles in his feet than the outside so he had heel pain you need to start with a vet. Work on what you find and thenmsee what is sore.
He was sore in his withers. His hocks are good. He does get stifle injections and he was out in his c3. |
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Need Advice I am at a total loss with this horse.