Griz - 2014-03-26 5:56 AM Which chiropractor did you use? I'm glad you are getting to the bottom of his issues! 

ACEINTHEHOLE - 2014-03-26 8:47 AM

When they inject the SI joints... whatever you do DO NOT let them if they don't use an Ultrasound to guide the needles.  The difference in the correct spot for the inject and what could kill your horse is literally millimeters!  And to do it correctly, they should use 4 needles:  2 6" ones and 2 8" ones, just fyi.

rodeowithjoker - 2014-03-27 7:39 AM I think Hickman was the name they gave me and they said he was driving over from Andover about once a week. I am so excited to have Chance back to normal soon. 

HotbearLVR - 2014-03-26 9:48 AM

The reason I asked how old he is was because you describe him being basically sore all over.  If he has been acting sore since 2012, I wonder if a few months off, in addition to the chiro treatments (assuming you are planning on more) and the injections, wouldn't be a good idea.  

dianeguinn - 2014-03-26 9:55 AM I've had multiple horses done before, and my vet uses one long needle and doesn't use an ultrasound. In fact, where mine is injecting couldn't be seen by an ultrasound, I don't think....none of mine have died, and all of them have run a LOT better after the injection, so I figure it worked....4 needles is a lot of times to inject...JMO I think there may be different schools of thought on the "correct" way of doing it because my vet is an equine specialist and is VERY well respected all over the world, so I trust that he's doing what my horse needs, and he only uses 1 needle.

dianeguinn - 2014-03-26 10:01 AM No disrespect intended, HotbearLVR, because I highly respect you, but I was told by more than one vet that if the SI is messed up, it will not get well with turn out. The pain HAS to be treated in order to get better and I did find that out with one of mine. I tried a year's turnout and he came back just as sore as when I turned him out. Also, most of my horses do worse with turn out time. (I'm not talking maybe a month's break....I'm talking 3 or 4 months of turnout time). It's like I almost have to train them all over again...they just fall apart after a long break. I'm going through that now because I didn't get to ride all winter due to the lousy winter, and they're acting like they don't even know how to run barrels. It's very frustrating. Also, soreness is just part and parcel of rodeo horses. They stay sore. We can do our best to try to keep them from being sore, but there is always going to be some soreness due to the traveling, etc. Just like we're sore when we climb out of the pickup after 12 hours of driving, so are they sore from being in the trailer that long. That's why good rodeo horses are so expensive. They're a special breed and they're tough. If you baby them, they fall apart. lol

ACEINTHEHOLE - 2014-03-27 9:19 AM Then he is only getting one side of the SI joints.  There are 4 facets in that region, so unless he knows for sure which one is sore, he is only getting part of it.  If he misses with that needle by 1 to 2 millimeters he will puncture the colon/rectum and cause contamination from feces leaking out.  I didn't say if they don't U/S guide that your horse WILL die, I said to make sure and do it in a fashion to guarantee it is correct U/S guided should be used.  To me, it's not worth the risk.  How long of a needle is your vet using, Diane? 

Longneck - 2014-03-26 9:15 AM Yay!  I just wish they could talk!  It would make everything so much easier!



I also wanted to say thanks for sharing your videos on my turny horses thread!  You have a nice trailer load full it looks like! 

HotbearLVR - 2014-03-26 10:43 AM

I guess I was just thinking that it sounds like the horse is sore all over by the OP's original post.  I may be guessing here, but I bet there are a lot of highly respected top level competitors who might take a different approach than you, Dianne.  Again, I am GUESSING.  If I had a horse who was a top tier/1D horse who was sore in several different places, I would consider multiple things that could be done at the same time......some time off, chiro, massage, vets, injections (if indicated), and reconditioning.  You can't tell me that this isn't something that a number of to competitors would do.   It all depends on how sore the horse seems to be, where he is sore, and how it is effecting his performance.  Yes, rodeo horses have to run through pain.....I get that.  I assume this is more than the usual amount of pain.  

classicpotatochip - 2014-03-26 5:18 PM In my experience, horses with spinal/pelvic pain are going to be out all over and may later exhibit some front feet pain from compensating so hard. I usually go with previcox to help them get through until your injections and conditioning program has time to get them back on track. :) Glad you're getting somewhere.

ACEINTHEHOLE - 2014-03-26 10:19 AM

Then he is only getting one side of the SI joints.  There are 4 facets in that region, so unless he knows for sure which one is sore, he is only getting part of it.  If he misses with that needle by 1 to 2 millimeters he will puncture the colon/rectum and cause contamination from feces leaking out.  I didn't say if they don't U/S guide that your horse WILL die, I said to make sure and do it in a fashion to guarantee it is correct U/S guided should be used.  To me, it's not worth the risk.  How long of a needle is your vet using, Diane? 

HotbearLVR - 2014-03-26 10:43 AM

I guess I was just thinking that it sounds like the horse is sore all over by the OP's original post.  I may be guessing here, but I bet there are a lot of highly respected top level competitors who might take a different approach than you, Dianne.  Again, I am GUESSING.  If I had a horse who was a top tier/1D horse who was sore in several different places, I would consider multiple things that could be done at the same time......some time off, chiro, massage, vets, injections (if indicated), and reconditioning.  You can't tell me that this isn't something that a number of to competitors would do.   It all depends on how sore the horse seems to be, where he is sore, and how it is effecting his performance.  Yes, rodeo horses have to run through pain.....I get that.  I assume this is more than the usual amount of pain.  

classicpotatochip - 2014-03-27 7:00 AM Yes but Doc, the word on the streets is that SI inflammation doesn't leave on it's own? I can attest to this, after turning a gelding out for a year, then he came back just as sore, plus I'd lost a year of his life. I injected him, he was back in 30 days getting his job done. I just feel like inflammation and joint pain can't be good for anyone. I know there's breakdown (potential) from injecting, BUT, isn't that less than the joint is inflicting on itself before injecting? I'm all for time off for muscles, suspensories, etc, but the joints? I'm not sure what is the right answer, but I do inject and keep trucking. I really do love my creatures too, it's not about the money, it's about keeping them pain free during their life with me.

HotbearLVR - 2014-03-27 8:40 AM


I'm not necessarily opposed to injecting, I'm just trying to understand or figure out the best approach that would give the best chances for longevity while staying competitive over the long haul.  My oldest horse is 19 and he was a very competitive rodeo horse until I bought him over 7 years ago.  His previous owner was careful and did all the good maintenence things, but if I had to say one reason he stayed sound all those years was good farrier work.  Everything done with him was very thoughtful.  I don't buy this notion that if you "baby" a rodeo horse they fall apart.  Proper diagnostics, as Alison was asking about, combined with some corrective action aimed at the root cause, and a period of conditioning seems most logical to me, in terms of the best chances of long term success and comfort.
In this scenario, we aren't talking about something that's been going on for a week or two.  

HotbearLVR - 2014-03-27 10:06 AM On the other hand, Megan, something Dianne said really made sense to me as well when she talked about people who "tweak" their backs.  She's right about that.  One of the most common causes of misery and time off work in people is low back pain and neck pain. Now, sometimes that can be serious with nerve impingement etc., but usually whatever the cause, the condition is self-limited and it goes away by itself no matter what you do. If I see someone with low back pain in the office, they often act like it's the end of the world and nothing short IV morphine will offer them any relief.  You sit down and explain to them that this will go away.  You give them high doses of NSAIDS for a limited period of time (3-5 days), you show them a couple good stretching exercises that will help a lot in terms of providing relief and minimizing recurrence, and, most importantly you tell them to maintain normal activity as much as possible.  "Bed rest" won't make it go away faster.  Years ago....many years, in fact.....the standard was bed rest and traction.  We learned that doesn't work and it probably is harmful.   In fact, muscle relaxants are not very helpful either.  

In this case, with this horse, we are talking about something that's been going on for quite some time.  That's why I think we need a thoughtful plan of attack.  

 

Three 4 Luck - 2014-03-27 11:14 AM  Horses are so good at compensating and gritting through pain, that it's often like peeling an onion to get them totally sound. Unless you find something that NEEDS rest to heal, you're better off to keep using them, even if it's limited, until you get to the root of the problem and then re-evaluate.  So often you fix one thing and something else shows up--it was there all along, just not apparent. If they're out in the pasture, you're not going to know until you put them back to work and then you have lost more time. 

Three 4 Luck - 2014-03-27 11:14 AM  Horses are so good at compensating and gritting through pain, that it's often like peeling an onion to get them totally sound. Unless you find something that NEEDS rest to heal, you're better off to keep using them, even if it's limited, until you get to the root of the problem and then re-evaluate.  So often you fix one thing and something else shows up--it was there all along, just not apparent. If they're out in the pasture, you're not going to know until you put them back to work and then you have lost more time. 



quoted from barrelracer131 --

If I were in your shoes though, I would probably get a second opinion and pull some films. I prefer to find a definative diagnosis when possible before injecting (since the blocks were inconclusive). In my experience, the "where" of the pain is just as important as the "why".

HotbearLVR - 2014-03-27 11:48 AM Lost more time?  Time for what?  Honestly, I am just trying to understand and reconcile this in my mind.  It's not like you are losing money.....in fact, chances are you are probably saving money overall.  

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to have a discussion and learn.  So far, I'm not convinced that a period of down time, with conditioning, like the things that were suggested to Megan is not lost time.  Actually, it sounds like she has a pretty good plan.  I don't have the answer as to how much down time is a good idea, but it seems to me that a sensible thing would be to err on more time off, rather than pushing things ahead a few weeks.  It would be a shame to spend all that time and effort with the vet, plus meds, chiro/massage, conditioning......only to have it all go to waste because of hauling too soon.  Then again, maybe I'm too conservative with something like this.  



In that run where Megan and Chance fell, he doesn't look right even before the fall.  His head is high.  He's posturing and his back is hollowed out and he's taking his face away.  I wonder if he didn't have something wrong before this fall.  Also, it seems to me I have seen other videos where he is firing a lot better and just running better overall....as far as I can recall, at least. 

 

Barnmom - 2014-03-27 11:00 AM You may want to have someone check his whorlbones (trochantaric bursas) as they will get inflamed when there are long standing back end issues.  Bursitis hurts and will make a horse not want to push off with thier back end.



RVI is an awesome "drug" for all over body soreness, so good that I believe it masked my mares kissing spine issues.  I now only use it after I have my horses thoroughly vetted.  You can get it without prescription from Allivet for $95 for six doses.  Very important to give it under the skin or it will not work, also need to wait a week or so after injecting with any anti inflamitory or cortisone.  This stuff is awesome for getting rid of any leftover body soreness when they have been ouchy for a while.