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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| There are a ton of issues at hand here, but I would be interested to know the opinions of the BHW community.CLARK COUNTY, Nevada — A man has been released after being arrested Sunday during an ongoing dispute over grazing rights between the Bureau of Land Management and a family in southern Nevada, and the family is calling for action. A federal judge in Las Vegas first ordered Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy to remove his trespassing cattle in 1998, according to reports from the Associated Press. Similar orders were issued in July 2013, and again in October. Saturday, the BLM began taking some of the 908 cattle from Bundy. The BLM says Bundy's cattle have been trespassing on U.S. land without required grazing permits for over 25 years. However, Bundy said he doesn't recognize federal authority on land that he says belongs to the state of Nevada. The BLM released a statement on its website saying, "Cattle have been in trespass on public lands in Southern Nevada for more than two decades. This is unfair to the thousands of other ranchers who graze livestock in compliance with federal laws and regulations throughout the west. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) and the National Park Service (NPS ) have made repeated attempts to resolve this matter administratively and judicially." The situation escalated Saturday after Cliven Bundy's son, Dave Bundy, 37, was arrested. Members of the Bundy family had gathered to film and take pictures of the removal of their cattle in an effort to document the event, according to Cliven Bundy's daughter, Bailey Bundy Logue. The family members had parked on the side of Nevada state Route 170, but the highway was included in the temporary closure of public lands, according to BLM representative Kirsten Cannon. Dave Bundy was arrested and cited with a criminal charge of refusing to disperse and resisting officers. Cannon said all public lands are closed within the designated closure area during the removal of the trespassing cattle. Wake up America. Look what our ancestors fought for and we need to stand up for that. We need to realize what's happening. They are taking everything away from us. This isn't only about one family. This is about everyone's family. –Bailey Bundy Logue Logue said Dave Bundy was taking pictures and recording on his iPad when he was asked by federal employees what he was doing. Logue said that Dave Bundy told the BLM workers that he was "exercising (his ) First Amendment rights." "He did not resist arrest, but they continued to beat him," Logue told KSL. "They put him on the ground and were standing on his head and had a dozen officers on top of him and dogs." The Bundy family was asked to leave the premises after Dave Bundy's arrest. Logue said that there were snipers and uniformed men on the scene during the cattle impoundment. "That's scary," Logue said. "I was angry, but there was nothing I can do. We were so outnumbered. With nothing but weapons of our cameras, we did our best at taking pictures. But when you're in that situation your mind is not thinking very straight." Dave Bundy was released Monday afternoon. However, the Bundy family said they feel that their First Amendment rights were violated and that they were entitled to meet on state Route 170 to take pictures. “That is against our First Amendment right," Logue said. "They say it’s a First Amendment area, but we have rights everywhere. Since when have we had First Amendment areas? That’s not what it says in the Constitution.” The Bundy family said they organized a rally for people to meet to support their First Amendment rights and their rights to public land. The rally was held near state Route 170 and I-15 on private land and around 100 people held a peaceful protest, Cannon said. "We have got together hundreds of people from all over the world and they are here, not because this is about cattle," Logue said. "We are asking people to come and stand up for their rights. We have lost all state sovereignty. I mean (it's like ) martial law in our home town, in America." Cannon said 134 cattle had been impounded by federal employees as of Monday afternoon, but the location will not be released during the ongoing operation. The cattle roundup was estimated to take between 21 to 30 days with further temporary closures during the operation. “Wake up America," Logue said. "Look what our ancestors fought for and we need to stand up for that. We need to realize what’s happening. They are taking everything away from us. This isn’t only about one family. This is about everyone’s family. This is martial law and it’s in America and so what are you going to do to have it stay out of America?” Cliven Bundy reportedly owes the BLM and U.S. government $1 million in back grazing fees, according to Cannon. Read more at http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=29387272#MdOFMigeJ4dksV9t.99 | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | he should have paid his rent......which is pretty cheap to start with.....i don't really have any sympathy for him in regards to his ranch and living of the govt for free for the last couple of decades......so, the govt moves off his cattle ....big deal....and so they have half an army.....i don't really care either....there is a risk that it could turn into a shootout.....
but....i have a huge problem with the family members being mistreated for documenting this.....but this happens with law enforcement at every level and people need to wake up and realize that most of those involved in law enforcement do not have our rights in mind when it comes to protection......they protect the govt.....and themselves... | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
      
| WOW. He should have been paying rent ... but why did it take so many years to "enforce" the movement of the livestock if the BLM knew he was keeping them on gov't property?
I also agree that they shouldn't have mistreated the family. There are many things I don't know about the situation ... just sucks all the way around. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | lindseylou2290 - 2014-04-08 12:35 PM WOW. He should have been paying rent ... but why did it take so many years to "enforce" the movement of the livestock if the BLM knew he was keeping them on gov't property? I also agree that they shouldn't have mistreated the family. There are many things I don't know about the situation ... just sucks all the way around.
I agree, what took so long to enforce the rules? I don't pretend to understand how all that works with state land/federal land/BLM, but the govt folks obviously knew for a very long time and did nothing. And no excuse for treating the family that way. That sort of thing will get worse if we continue to tolerate it. We're throwing away what our ancestors fought for. | |
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  Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
  
| dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:24 PM he should have paid his rent......which is pretty cheap to start with.....i don't really have any sympathy for him in regards to his ranch and living of the govt for free for the last couple of decades......so, the govt moves off his cattle ....big deal....and so they have half an army.....i don't really care either....there is a risk that it could turn into a shootout.....
but....i have a huge problem with the family members being mistreated for documenting this.....but this happens with law enforcement at every level and people need to wake up and realize that most of those involved in law enforcement do not have our rights in mind when it comes to protection......they protect the govt.....and themselves...
I'm not sure it is as simple as nonpayment...I thought I had read where his grazing permit was terminated to protect a desert tortoise or something? I'm off to google... | |
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  Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
  
| found this below...he did stop paying the rent before the tortoise thing.
For 20 years, a tough-as-leather Nevada rancher and the federal government have been locked in a bitter range war over cattle grazing rights. This weekend the confrontation got worse, when the feds hired contract cowboys to start seizing Cliven Bundy's cattle, which have been grazing on public land managed by the Bureau of Land Management. The government officials brought a show of force that included dozens of armed agents in SUVs and helicopters.Bundy, 67, who has been a rancher all his life, accuses BLM of stampeding over on his rights. “This is a lot bigger deal than just my cows,” Bundy told FoxNews.com. “It’s a statement for freedom and liberty and the Constitution.” The fight involves a 600,000-acre area under BLM control called Gold Butte, near the Utah border. The vast and rugged land is the habitat of the protected desert tortoise, and the land has been off-limits for cattle since 1998. Five years before that, when grazing was legal, Bundy stopped paying federal fees for the right. | |
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  Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
  
| http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/07/feds-move-in-on-nevada-rancher-herd-over-illegal-grazing/ link to the whole article | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | bennie1 - 2014-04-08 12:49 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:24 PM he should have paid his rent......which is pretty cheap to start with.....i don't really have any sympathy for him in regards to his ranch and living of the govt for free for the last couple of decades......so, the govt moves off his cattle ....big deal....and so they have half an army.....i don't really care either....there is a risk that it could turn into a shootout.....
but....i have a huge problem with the family members being mistreated for documenting this.....but this happens with law enforcement at every level and people need to wake up and realize that most of those involved in law enforcement do not have our rights in mind when it comes to protection......they protect the govt.....and themselves... I'm not sure it is as simple as nonpayment...I thought I had read where his grazing permit was terminated to protect a desert tortoise or something?
I'm off to google...
it did....but the agreement they finally came to only affected 10 ranchers and it only restricted them from grazing on certain areas in a sensitive springtime period.....this was back in the 90's......i think.....seems to me that beyond the noncompliance on land he doesn't own, he hasn't paid anyone anything for 25 years.......now if i had a renter like that, the first year he didn't abide by our agreement, let alone not pay rent, his cows would have been hauled off.... | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
      
| Whiteboy - 2014-04-08 12:17 PM There are a ton of issues at hand here, but I would be interested to know the opinions of the BHW community.
CLARK COUNTY, Nevada — A man has been released after being arrested Sunday during an ongoing dispute over grazing rights between the Bureau of Land Management and a family in southern Nevada, and the family is calling for action.
A federal judge in Las Vegas first ordered Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy to remove his trespassing cattle in 1998, according to reports from the Associated Press. Similar orders were issued in July 2013, and again in October.
Saturday, the BLM began taking some of the 908 cattle from Bundy. The BLM says Bundy's cattle have been trespassing on U.S. land without required grazing permits for over 25 years. However, Bundy said he doesn't recognize federal authority on land that he says belongs to the state of Nevada.
The BLM released a statement on its website saying, "Cattle have been in trespass on public lands in Southern Nevada for more than two decades. This is unfair to the thousands of other ranchers who graze livestock in compliance with federal laws and regulations throughout the west. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) and the National Park Service (NPS ) have made repeated attempts to resolve this matter administratively and judicially."
The situation escalated Saturday after Cliven Bundy's son, Dave Bundy, 37, was arrested. Members of the Bundy family had gathered to film and take pictures of the removal of their cattle in an effort to document the event, according to Cliven Bundy's daughter, Bailey Bundy Logue.
The family members had parked on the side of Nevada state Route 170, but the highway was included in the temporary closure of public lands, according to BLM representative Kirsten Cannon. Dave Bundy was arrested and cited with a criminal charge of refusing to disperse and resisting officers. Cannon said all public lands are closed within the designated closure area during the removal of the trespassing cattle.
Wake up America. Look what our ancestors fought for and we need to stand up for that. We need to realize what's happening. They are taking everything away from us. This isn't only about one family. This is about everyone's family.
–Bailey Bundy Logue
Logue said Dave Bundy was taking pictures and recording on his iPad when he was asked by federal employees what he was doing. Logue said that Dave Bundy told the BLM workers that he was "exercising (his ) First Amendment rights."
"He did not resist arrest, but they continued to beat him," Logue told KSL. "They put him on the ground and were standing on his head and had a dozen officers on top of him and dogs."
The Bundy family was asked to leave the premises after Dave Bundy's arrest. Logue said that there were snipers and uniformed men on the scene during the cattle impoundment.
"That's scary," Logue said. "I was angry, but there was nothing I can do. We were so outnumbered. With nothing but weapons of our cameras, we did our best at taking pictures. But when you're in that situation your mind is not thinking very straight."
Dave Bundy was released Monday afternoon. However, the Bundy family said they feel that their First Amendment rights were violated and that they were entitled to meet on state Route 170 to take pictures.
“That is against our First Amendment right," Logue said. "They say it’s a First Amendment area, but we have rights everywhere. Since when have we had First Amendment areas? That’s not what it says in the Constitution.”
The Bundy family said they organized a rally for people to meet to support their First Amendment rights and their rights to public land. The rally was held near state Route 170 and I-15 on private land and around 100 people held a peaceful protest, Cannon said.
"We have got together hundreds of people from all over the world and they are here, not because this is about cattle," Logue said. "We are asking people to come and stand up for their rights. We have lost all state sovereignty. I mean (it's like ) martial law in our home town, in America."
Cannon said 134 cattle had been impounded by federal employees as of Monday afternoon, but the location will not be released during the ongoing operation. The cattle roundup was estimated to take between 21 to 30 days with further temporary closures during the operation.
“Wake up America," Logue said. "Look what our ancestors fought for and we need to stand up for that. We need to realize what’s happening. They are taking everything away from us. This isn’t only about one family. This is about everyone’s family. This is martial law and it’s in America and so what are you going to do to have it stay out of America?”
Cliven Bundy reportedly owes the BLM and U.S. government $1 million in back grazing fees, according to Cannon.
Read more at http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=29387272#MdOFMigeJ4dksV9t.99
WHAT the WHAT??!! So he basically picked a fight by not recognizing federal law and didn't pay his rent. Hmmmmmmm this story will be interesting to follow as more details come out ..... | |
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 Uh....never mind
Posts: 2696
      Location: Midwest Farmer's Daughter: Central Illinois | Sounds to me like the local gov'ts are kowtowing to the great Fed instead of making a decision that they should have made a long time ago. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | I read about this event earlier this week and have decided that the BLM is #3 on My Most Despised/Hated/ unConstitutional Government Agencies List out there.
#1 IRS
#2 EPA
#3 BLM
#4 BATFE
and then throw in the Department of Education.
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | bennie1 - 2014-04-08 12:49 PM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:24 PM he should have paid his rent......which is pretty cheap to start with.....i don't really have any sympathy for him in regards to his ranch and living of the govt for free for the last couple of decades......so, the govt moves off his cattle ....big deal....and so they have half an army.....i don't really care either....there is a risk that it could turn into a shootout.....
but....i have a huge problem with the family members being mistreated for documenting this.....but this happens with law enforcement at every level and people need to wake up and realize that most of those involved in law enforcement do not have our rights in mind when it comes to protection......they protect the govt.....and themselves...
I'm not sure it is as simple as nonpayment...I thought I had read where his grazing permit was terminated to protect a desert tortoise or something? I'm off to google...
Desert Tortoise per the article I have read. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:56 PM
bennie1 - 2014-04-08 12:49 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:24 PM he should have paid his rent......which is pretty cheap to start with.....i don't really have any sympathy for him in regards to his ranch and living of the govt for free for the last couple of decades......so, the govt moves off his cattle ....big deal....and so they have half an army.....i don't really care either....there is a risk that it could turn into a shootout.....
but....i have a huge problem with the family members being mistreated for documenting this.....but this happens with law enforcement at every level and people need to wake up and realize that most of those involved in law enforcement do not have our rights in mind when it comes to protection......they protect the govt.....and themselves... I'm not sure it is as simple as nonpayment...I thought I had read where his grazing permit was terminated to protect a desert tortoise or something?
I'm off to google...
it did....but the agreement they finally came to only affected 10 ranchers and it only restricted them from grazing on certain areas in a sensitive springtime period.....this was back in the 90's......i think.....seems to me that beyond the noncompliance on land he doesn't own, he hasn't paid anyone anything for 25 years.......now if i had a renter like that, the first year he didn't abide by our agreement, let alone not pay rent, his cows would have been hauled off....
Counterpoint: As a taxpaying American Citizen, how does said Citizen 'not' own Government Land ie BLM Land? Remember, America Citizens fund the American Government. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | foundation horse - 2014-04-08 1:00 PM I read about this event earlier this week and have decided that the BLM is #3 on My Most Despised/Hated/ unConstitutional Government Agencies List out there. #1 IRS #2 EPA #3 BLM #4 BATFE and then throw in the Department of Education.
that is a very disagreeable list.......although i might switch it around a little....they are all the same | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1611
   Location: bring on the heat, NV | We are bit involved and know cliven personally. I believe that he is okay with paying his allotment fees but believes that the state is responsible and doesnt recongize the federal aspect of the BLM. I think he said he was putting all those fees in a special savings account even though he didnt pay the BLM. Im not sure what the truth is on that. Quite a few are shaking heads. There are wrongs and rights here but really wish he hadnt picked a fight..... He has some support and quite a few that are angry that he is going to set the BLM up to run the rest of us off.... Nerve wrecking.... | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | foundation horse - 2014-04-08 1:04 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:56 PM bennie1 - 2014-04-08 12:49 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:24 PM he should have paid his rent......which is pretty cheap to start with.....i don't really have any sympathy for him in regards to his ranch and living of the govt for free for the last couple of decades......so, the govt moves off his cattle ....big deal....and so they have half an army.....i don't really care either....there is a risk that it could turn into a shootout.....
but....i have a huge problem with the family members being mistreated for documenting this.....but this happens with law enforcement at every level and people need to wake up and realize that most of those involved in law enforcement do not have our rights in mind when it comes to protection......they protect the govt.....and themselves... I'm not sure it is as simple as nonpayment...I thought I had read where his grazing permit was terminated to protect a desert tortoise or something?
I'm off to google... it did....but the agreement they finally came to only affected 10 ranchers and it only restricted them from grazing on certain areas in a sensitive springtime period.....this was back in the 90's......i think.....seems to me that beyond the noncompliance on land he doesn't own, he hasn't paid anyone anything for 25 years.......now if i had a renter like that, the first year he didn't abide by our agreement, let alone not pay rent, his cows would have been hauled off.... Counterpoint: As a taxpaying American Citizen, how does said Citizen 'not' own Government Land ie BLM Land? Remember, America Citizens fund the American Government.
american citizens do not own the government......while they do fund it..... | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 1:06 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-08 1:00 PM I read about this event earlier this week and have decided that the BLM is #3 on My Most Despised/Hated/ unConstitutional Government Agencies List out there. #1 IRS #2 EPA #3 BLM #4 BATFE and then throw in the Department of Education.
that is a very disagreeable list.......although i might switch it around a little....they are all the same
The IRS is the World's Foremost Financial Collection and perhaps the most unConstitutional! The rest are far behind the IRS, due to the IRS's wide ranging illegal unConstitutional Powers! | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 1:08 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-08 1:04 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:56 PM bennie1 - 2014-04-08 12:49 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:24 PM he should have paid his rent......which is pretty cheap to start with.....i don't really have any sympathy for him in regards to his ranch and living of the govt for free for the last couple of decades......so, the govt moves off his cattle ....big deal....and so they have half an army.....i don't really care either....there is a risk that it could turn into a shootout.....
but....i have a huge problem with the family members being mistreated for documenting this.....but this happens with law enforcement at every level and people need to wake up and realize that most of those involved in law enforcement do not have our rights in mind when it comes to protection......they protect the govt.....and themselves... I'm not sure it is as simple as nonpayment...I thought I had read where his grazing permit was terminated to protect a desert tortoise or something?
I'm off to google... it did....but the agreement they finally came to only affected 10 ranchers and it only restricted them from grazing on certain areas in a sensitive springtime period.....this was back in the 90's......i think.....seems to me that beyond the noncompliance on land he doesn't own, he hasn't paid anyone anything for 25 years.......now if i had a renter like that, the first year he didn't abide by our agreement, let alone not pay rent, his cows would have been hauled off.... Counterpoint: As a taxpaying American Citizen, how does said Citizen 'not' own Government Land ie BLM Land? Remember, America Citizens fund the American Government.
american citizens do not own the government......while they do fund it.....
In my lil' Constitutional Mind to fund is to Own. Especially in the case of The Federal Government when viewed from a United States Constitutional Point of View. | |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
       Location: Florida | He should have paid his rent like the rest of us. The government charges so little for grazing rights it's not like it would have been a hardship. If the Bureau of Land Management can't manage the land we might as well have no property rights, we all take what we want. | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:24 PM
he should have paid his rent......which is pretty cheap to start with.....i don't really have any sympathy for him in regards to his ranch and living of the govt for free for the last couple of decades......so, the govt moves off his cattle ....big deal....and so they have half an army.....i don't really care either....there is a risk that it could turn into a shootout.....
but....i have a huge problem with the family members being mistreated for documenting this.....but this happens with law enforcement at every level and people need to wake up and realize that most of those involved in law enforcement do not have our rights in mind when it comes to protection......they protect the govt.....and themselves...
I would agree with you if all the facts are true. But when you read deeper this rancher and his family have been using this land since the 1880's. I tend to agree with the rancher. When you look at the history of this land I am not to sure that the BLM has a right to this land. It is certainly a gray area. | |
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 Uh....never mind
Posts: 2696
      Location: Midwest Farmer's Daughter: Central Illinois | jbhoot - 2014-04-08 1:15 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:24 PM he should have paid his rent......which is pretty cheap to start with.....i don't really have any sympathy for him in regards to his ranch and living of the govt for free for the last couple of decades......so, the govt moves off his cattle ....big deal....and so they have half an army.....i don't really care either....there is a risk that it could turn into a shootout.....
but....i have a huge problem with the family members being mistreated for documenting this.....but this happens with law enforcement at every level and people need to wake up and realize that most of those involved in law enforcement do not have our rights in mind when it comes to protection......they protect the govt.....and themselves... I would agree with you if all the facts are true. But when you read deeper this rancher and his family have been using this land since the 1880's. I tend to agree with the rancher. When you look at the history of this land I am not to sure that the BLM has a right to this land. It is certainly a gray area.
If they're going to have a leg to stand on with this train of thought, then all of the Native 'rights' to land don't stand either. The Fed rules it all. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Vickie - 2014-04-08 1:14 PM
He should have paid his rent like the rest of us. The government charges so little for grazing rights it's not like it would have been a hardship. If the Bureau of Land Management can't manage the land we might as well have no property rights, we all take what we want.
Per the Government: Unless a Property OWNER, pays something called TAXES, then said OWNER has no RIGHTS. Cease paying any kind of Property Taxes and see what happens to Owner's RIGHTS. OWNERS that have CLEAR DEEDS of TITLE to said Property. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
      
| Heres another article, reliable I don't know
http://www.infowars.com/armed-feds-prepare-for-showdown-with-nevada...
It seems that facts seem to be in short supply when the government is involved!! | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| This story has been gracing our local news for the last couple of months.
The "trespassing" issue is being pushed by a group of individuals who feel that the tortoises and the cattle are competing for habitat and feed. The lease that Bundy's cattle are "trespassing" on is legally owned by a habitat conservation organization.
He did not pay his grazing fees, plain and simple, and there for he should be responsible for that. BLM grazing fees are set at $1.35 an animal unit or $16.20 per animal unit per year as of 2013. This amounts to $14,709.60 per year IF all of the 908 head were weaned cattle, which I highly doubt. How the BLM determined he owes over $1M in back fees is beyond me. With his current heard and the current permit fees his total owed would be $220,640.40 a far cry from the estimated back fees the government is claiming he owes. Even if he had 3 times the number of cattle on that lease at the time it still would not meet the $1M estimate.
Why the BLM did not take action for 15 years is beyond me. They should have pursued the removal back in 1998 rather than allowing it escalate.
As for the treatment of the family, that is absolutely deplorable assuming they were "assembling" peacefully. There has not been too much light shown on the treatment in our local news. I did see Bundy on a broadcast this morning explaining his stance and the treatment of the family but at that the BLM and other government entities were declining to make statements.
Edited by cyount2009 2014-04-08 1:41 PM
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| This problem is directly related to one of our own. The county I live in connects to the county Cliven runs his cattle on. The BLM have done such a poor job at manageing the wild horse herds that they have reproduced beyond control. The deal our county commissioners along with the county commissioners to the south of us is that if the BLM cant manage the land they are in chage of we will do it for them. In our case, if they touch Bundys cattle, we start collecting their horses. This is all coming unraveled, with far reaching effects. Most people wont involve themselves until it is their cheese that was taken. People, this has nothing to do with cows, Bundy or horses, it is all about bloated government and the need for everyone of us to involve ourselves, or it will be you next.
Edited by Whiteboy 2014-04-08 3:29 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1094
    Location: Idahome | Whiteboy - 2014-04-08 12:35 PM
This problem is directly related to one of our own. The county I live in connects to the county Cliven runs his cattle on. The BLM have done such a poor job at manageing the wild horse herds that they have reproduced beyond control. The deal our county commissioners along with the county commissioners to the south of us is that if the BLM cant manage the land they are in chage of we will do it for them. In our case, if they touch Bundys cattle, we start collecting thier horses. This is all coming unraveled, with far reaching effects. Most people wont involve themselves until it is their cheese that was taken. People, this has nothing to do with cows, Bundy or horses, it is all about bloated government and the need for everyone of us to involve ourselves, or it will be you next.
I cannot stand the BLM for the reasoning on their precious tortoise and the mustangs are a whole other story. I have seen both affect my families cattle in Southern Nevada. The horses are so overpopulated and uncontrolled that even if you pay for a HORSE FREE permit to run your cattle, they still find a way in to eat and drink what should be there for the cattle. I don't know the whole story, but it is the action of the government doing what it does best being azzhats! | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | jbhoot - 2014-04-08 1:15 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:24 PM he should have paid his rent......which is pretty cheap to start with.....i don't really have any sympathy for him in regards to his ranch and living of the govt for free for the last couple of decades......so, the govt moves off his cattle ....big deal....and so they have half an army.....i don't really care either....there is a risk that it could turn into a shootout.....
but....i have a huge problem with the family members being mistreated for documenting this.....but this happens with law enforcement at every level and people need to wake up and realize that most of those involved in law enforcement do not have our rights in mind when it comes to protection......they protect the govt.....and themselves... I would agree with you if all the facts are true. But when you read deeper this rancher and his family have been using this land since the 1880's. I tend to agree with the rancher. When you look at the history of this land I am not to sure that the BLM has a right to this land. It is certainly a gray area.
but then make that your argument.....what i gather is that he's not claiming any private right, just that the state owns it instead of the feds......i could understand that argument.....although a tough one to go on at this point.... | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | cyount2009 - 2014-04-08 1:34 PM This story has been gracing our local news for the last couple of months. The "trespassing" issue is being pushed by a group of individuals who feel that the tortoises and the cattle are competing for habitat and feed. The lease that Bundy's cattle are "trespassing" on is legally owned by a habitat conservation organization. He did not pay his grazing fees, plain and simple, and there for he should be responsible for that. BLM grazing fees are set at $1.35 an animal unit or $16.20 per animal unit per year as of 2013. This amounts to $14,709.60 per year IF all of the 908 head were weaned cattle, which I highly doubt. How the BLM determined he owes over $1M in back fees is beyond me. With his current heard and the current permit fees his total owed would be $220,640.40 a far cry from the estimated back fees the government is claiming he owes. Even if he had 3 times the number of cattle on that lease at the time it still would not meet the $1M estimate. Why the BLM did not take action for 15 years is beyond me. They should have pursued the removal back in 1998 rather than allowing it escalate. As for the treatment of the family, that is absolutely deplorable assuming they were "assembling" peacefully. There has not been too much light shown on the treatment in our local news. I did see Bundy on a broadcast this morning explaining his stance and the treatment of the family but at that the BLM and other government entities were declining to make statements. the issue with persuing this has been a great example of how our govt agencies choose or do not choose to enforce things......previous administrations left this one alone as far as enforcement.....much like the current administration chooses to minimally enforce illegal alien deportations... but go after this.....(although i think rightly so)
Edited by dhdqhllc 2014-04-08 2:32 PM
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 Always Off Topic
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        Location: ND | Whiteboy - 2014-04-08 1:35 PM This problem is directly related to one of our own. The county I live in connects to the county Cliven runs his cattle on. The BLM have done such a poor job at manageing the wild horse herds that they have reproduced beyond control. The deal our county commissioners along with the county commissioners to the south of us is that if the BLM cant manage the land they are in chage of we will do it for them. In our case, if they touch Bundys cattle, we start collecting thier horses. This is all coming unraveled, with far reaching effects. Most people wont involve themselves until it is their cheese that was taken. People, this has nothing to do with cows, Bundy or horses, it is all about bloated government and the need for everyone of us to involve ourselves, or it will be you next.
boom..... | |
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     Location: Northeast Nebraska | I don't believe one **** word any **** government agency says. Fluke the blm and the federal government and every jack booted thug working for them. | |
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   Location: The Great West | KylaKris - 2014-04-08 1:02 PM Whiteboy - 2014-04-08 12:35 PM This problem is directly related to one of our own. The county I live in connects to the county Cliven runs his cattle on. The BLM have done such a poor job at manageing the wild horse herds that they have reproduced beyond control. The deal our county commissioners along with the county commissioners to the south of us is that if the BLM cant manage the land they are in chage of we will do it for them. In our case, if they touch Bundys cattle, we start collecting thier horses. This is all coming unraveled, with far reaching effects. Most people wont involve themselves until it is their cheese that was taken. People, this has nothing to do with cows, Bundy or horses, it is all about bloated government and the need for everyone of us to involve ourselves, or it will be you next. I cannot stand the BLM for the reasoning on their precious tortoise and the mustangs are a whole other story. I have seen both affect my families cattle in Southern Nevada. The horses are so overpopulated and uncontrolled that even if you pay for a HORSE FREE permit to run your cattle, they still find a way in to eat and drink what should be there for the cattle. I don't know the whole story, but it is the action of the government doing what it does best being azzhats!
From what I understand the Bundy family has been using the land for well over 100 years, since the 1880s. Since before the BLM existed, and now they want to get involved, sounds to me like someone is trying to justify their jobs at our expense. | |
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| Black Horse - 2014-04-08 5:39 PM
KylaKris - 2014-04-08 1:02 PM Whiteboy - 2014-04-08 12:35 PM This problem is directly related to one of our own. The county I live in connects to the county Cliven runs his cattle on. The BLM have done such a poor job at manageing the wild horse herds that they have reproduced beyond control. The deal our county commissioners along with the county commissioners to the south of us is that if the BLM cant manage the land they are in chage of we will do it for them. In our case, if they touch Bundys cattle, we start collecting thier horses. This is all coming unraveled, with far reaching effects. Most people wont involve themselves until it is their cheese that was taken. People, this has nothing to do with cows, Bundy or horses, it is all about bloated government and the need for everyone of us to involve ourselves, or it will be you next. I cannot stand the BLM for the reasoning on their precious tortoise and the mustangs are a whole other story. I have seen both affect my families cattle in Southern Nevada. The horses are so overpopulated and uncontrolled that even if you pay for a HORSE FREE permit to run your cattle, they still find a way in to eat and drink what should be there for the cattle. I don't know the whole story, but it is the action of the government doing what it does best being azzhats!
From what I understand the Bundy family has been using the land for well over 100 years, since the 1880s. Since before the BLM existed, and now they want to get involved, sounds to me like someone is trying to justify their jobs at our expense.
yeah ... I'd love to know the whole story ... I got some background as my BFF worked for the BLM in NV for 2 years before she had enough of the politics, to quote her "it's a freakin' ticking time bomb" there in reference to all the issues ....
Hopefully the media can or will report all sides of this ... | |
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| http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/25/government-plans-to-euthanize...
Government plans to euthanize hundreds of desert tortoises after budget cuts to refuge
Edited by FlyingJT 2014-04-09 12:11 PM
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| https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/04/mgk-range-war-i...
Range war: County resolves to solve wild horse problem if BLM prioritizes Bundy cattle
IRON COUNTY – Earlier this week Iron County Commission sent a letter to the Bureau of Land Management regarding the agency’s activity in Clark County, Nev., versus its apparent lack thereof in Iron County concerning an ongoing problem of feral horses and burros within the county.
Addressed to Neil Kornze, the BLM’s principal deputy director, and Amy Lueders, the BLM Nevada state director, the letter begins: “Please be advised that the decision of the BLM in Clark County Nevada to force trespass on private citizens has triggered our interest in Iron County, Utah and has spillover ramifications.”
Sponsor
In the letter, the County Commission states the BLM is spending around $2 million to impound the cattle of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, while at the same time saying it has no money to deal with the feral horse issue.
**more in the article attached**
**letter to BLM**
http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/216192732-Ir...
**
http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/05/mgk-range-war-b...
Edited by FlyingJT 2014-04-09 12:42 PM
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FlyingJT - 2014-04-09 12:34 PM
https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/04/mgk-range-war-i...
Range war: County resolves to solve wild horse problem if BLM prioritizes Bundy cattle
IRON COUNTY – Earlier this week Iron County Commission sent a letter to the Bureau of Land Management regarding the agency’s activity in Clark County, Nev., versus its apparent lack thereof in Iron County concerning an ongoing problem of feral horses and burros within the county.
Addressed to Neil Kornze, the BLM’s principal deputy director, and Amy Lueders, the BLM Nevada state director, the letter begins: “Please be advised that the decision of the BLM in Clark County Nevada to force trespass on private citizens has triggered our interest in Iron County, Utah and has spillover ramifications.”
Sponsor
In the letter, the County Commission states the BLM is spending around $2 million to impound the cattle of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, while at the same time saying it has no money to deal with the feral horse issue.
**more in the article attached**
**letter to BLM**
http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/216192732-Ir...
**
http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/05/mgk-range-war-b...
Interesting is it not? Evidently there is money enough to confiscate Private Property (Cattle ) and harass Private Citizens, but publicly speaking there is NO money to control feral horse and donkey bands. Hypocrisy in action for the Public's Viewing! | |
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| Interesting is it not? Evidently there is money enough to confiscate Private Property (Cattle) and harass Private Citizens, but publicly speaking there is NO money to control feral horse and donkey bands. Hypocrisy in action for the Public's Viewing!
That it is!!! | |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| FlyingJT - 2014-04-09 12:49 PM Interesting is it not? Evidently there is money enough to confiscate Private Property (Cattle) and harass Private Citizens, but publicly speaking there is NO money to control feral horse and donkey bands. Hypocrisy in action for the Public's Viewing! That it is!!!
With the horse problem we are talking several thousand horses that need to be removed. But how many horses does the BLM already have in holding facilities right now? The answer is 10's of thousands. Removing them from the range and then paying contractors tons of money to just hold them doesn't seem like a mangament plan. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Whiteboy - 2014-04-09 2:13 PM
FlyingJT - 2014-04-09 12:49 PM Interesting is it not? Evidently there is money enough to confiscate Private Property (Cattle) and harass Private Citizens, but publicly speaking there is NO money to control feral horse and donkey bands. Hypocrisy in action for the Public's Viewing! That it is!!!
With the horse problem we are talking several thousand horses that need to be removed. But how many horses does the BLM already have in holding facilities right now? The answer is 10's of thousands. Removing them from the range and then paying contractors tons of money to just hold them doesn't seem like a mangament plan.
It is not. It is a Monetary Black Hole!
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    Location: Idahome | Found this that someone had posted on TheBlaze FB. It was written by Cliven's daughter:
"Sorry this is long but applicable here. By SHIREE BUNDY COX: I have had people ask me to explain my dad's stance on this BLM fight. Here it is in as simple of terms as I can explain it. There is so much to it, but here it s in a nut shell. My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the servival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars. These rights to the land use is called preemptive rights. Some where down the line, to keep the cows from over grazing, came the bureau of land management. They were supposed to assist the ranchers in the management of their ranges while the ranchers paid a yearly allotment which was to be use to pay the BLM wages and to help with repaires and improvements of the ranches. My dad did pay his grazing fees for years to the BLM until they were no longer using his fees to help him and to improve. Instead they began using these money's against the ranchers. They bought all the rest of the ranchers in the area out with they're own grazing fees. When they offered to buy my dad out for a penence he said no thanks and then fired them because they weren't doing their job. He quit paying the BLM but, tried giving his grazing fees to the county, which they turned down. So my dad just went on running his ranch and making his own improvements with his own equipment and his own money, not taxes. In essence the BLM was managing my dad out of business. Well when buying him out didn't work, they used the indangered species card. You've already heard about the desert tortis. Well that didn't work either, so then began the threats and the court orders, which my dad has proven to be unlawful for all these years. Now their desperate. It's come down to buying the brand inspector off and threatening the County Sheriff. Everything their doing at this point is illegal and totally against the constitution of the United States of America. Now you may be saying," how sad, but what does this have to do with me?" Well, I'll tell you. They will get rid of Cliven Bundy, the last man standing on the Bunkerville allotment and then they will close all the roads so no one can ever go on it again. Next, it's Utah's turn. Mark my words, Utah is next.
Then there's the issue of the cattle that are at this moment being stolen. See even if dad hasn't paid them, those cattle do belong to him. Regardless where they are they are my fathers property. His herd has been part of that range for over a hundred years, long before the BLM even exsisted. Now the Feds think they can just come in and remove them and sell them without a legal brand inspection or without my dad's signature on it. They think they can take them over two boarders, which is illegal, ask any trucker. Then they plan to take them to the Richfeild Aucion and sell them. All with our tax money. They have paid off the contract cowboys and the auction owner as well as the Nevada brand inspector with our tax dollars. See how slick they are?
Well, this is it in a nut shell. Thanks" | |
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  That's White "Man" to You
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| I agree with that, next Utah, then Wyoming, Idaho, Arizona and Montana. It will not end if we allow them to run rogue. Same with the President. | |
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     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Another thing the BLM did was set up a 'First Amendment Zone'! I know...Pres. Bush did this during war protests back when so they throw that in the faces of patriots now...major difference is the terrain, the area. There were also 'snipers' in the hills, wearing BLM uniforms. Terrorists. Velcome to Amirika. | |
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| Nevada's Governor released a statement.
SANDOVAL STATEMENT ON BLM ROUNDUP
Contact
Tyler Klimas
(775) 684-5667
Las Vegas, NV - April 08, 2014
Governor Brian Sandoval made the following statement today:
“Due to the roundup by the BLM, my office has received numerous complaints of BLM misconduct, road closures and other disturbances. I have recently met with state legislators, county officials and concerned citizens to listen to their concerns. I have expressed those concerns directly to the BLM.”
“Most disturbing to me is the BLM’s establishment of a ‘First Amendment Area’ that tramples upon Nevadans’ fundamental rights under the U.S. Constitution. To that end, I have advised the BLM that such conduct is offensive to me and countless others and that the ‘First Amendment Area’ should be dismantled immediately. No cow justifies the atmosphere of intimidation which currently exists nor the limitation of constitutional rights that are sacred to all Nevadans. The BLM needs to reconsider its approach to this matter and act accordingly.”
Edited by FlyingJT 2014-04-09 4:20 PM
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| There was a protest today and I believe it didn't go well. I think a man got tazed by a BLM worker, I'm sure it will be all over the news tonight. | |
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Posts: 5515
 
| musikmaker - 2014-04-09 4:09 PM Another thing the BLM did was set up a 'First Amendment Zone'! I know...Pres. Bush did this during war protests back when so they throw that in the faces of patriots now...major difference is the terrain, the area.
There were also 'snipers' in the hills, wearing BLM uniforms. Terrorists.
Velcome to Amirika.
Seriously!? Zones!? I want them to show me where it specifies zones in the constitution. Whats next folks? 2nd amendment zones? | |
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 Nicknameless
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     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Whiteboy - 2014-04-09 3:21 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-09 4:09 PM Another thing the BLM did was set up a 'First Amendment Zone'! I know...Pres. Bush did this during war protests back when so they throw that in the faces of patriots now...major difference is the terrain, the area.
There were also 'snipers' in the hills, wearing BLM uniforms. Terrorists.
Velcome to Amirika.
Seriously!? Zones!? I want them to show me where it specifies zones in the constitution. Whats next folks? 2nd amendment zones?
And...'installed' by uniforms who do not represent the people in any way as they are NOT elected, they have absolutely no authority or jurisdiction...just like a bully, it's all in what we allow. | |
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          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Whiteboy - 2014-04-09 4:21 PM
musikmaker - 2014-04-09 4:09 PM Another thing the BLM did was set up a 'First Amendment Zone'! I know...Pres. Bush did this during war protests back when so they throw that in the faces of patriots now...major difference is the terrain, the area.
There were also 'snipers' in the hills, wearing BLM uniforms. Terrorists.
Velcome to Amirika.
Seriously!? Zones!? I want them to show me where it specifies zones in the constitution. Whats next folks? 2nd amendment zones?
We already have non-2nd amendment zones. | |
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     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | I guess it shouldn't surprise me when people say "the fee is nominal...just pay it" or "Everyone else pays it..."...but, it does. At what point do we say "Enough!"? If we stoop for this...we'll stoop forever... I've read some comments on the online KSL news report out of Salt Lake and find the varying views interesting...and alarming. Alas...we've gotten to the point that if it doesn't affect us directly then we don't care. Very sad...the 'What's in it for me?' mentality. Our forefathers didn't think that way & they put together a Nation that can endure if we have the guts to keep it. What they envisioned did not include the various gov't agencies who have slowly & assuredly claimed authority they do not possess. | |
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  Location: Utah | I've been watching this for a while now, and to tell you honestly I have very mixed emotions. On one had I think well he should have just paid, but then on the other I think well from what I've read they feel like they have paid for the grazing rights. I know that our town has a land company and land up the 2 canyons that feed into us. There have been permits taken from grazing up there, and I wonder when the "permits" will be taken away totally here. There was a post on FB last night by Randy Lewis, I believe. He made some good points, that this has been going on quietly for years and finally someone stood up and said "no". He also pointed out that if this becomes ok for cattle at what point will it be ok for our guns, or our children? At least that was my take on it. I don't really know the best way to try and articulate my thoughts. There are a lot of things that are happening in our country that really worry me.... they worry me for my future as well as that of my family & our country as a whole. | |
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     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Snappy - 2014-04-09 6:11 PM I've been watching this for a while now, and to tell you honestly I have very mixed emotions. On one had I think well he should have just paid, but then on the other I think well from what I've read they feel like they have paid for the grazing rights. I know that our town has a land company and land up the 2 canyons that feed into us. There have been permits taken from grazing up there, and I wonder when the "permits" will be taken away totally here. There was a post on FB last night by Randy Lewis, I believe. He made some good points, that this has been going on quietly for years and finally someone stood up and said "no". He also pointed out that if this becomes ok for cattle at what point will it be ok for our guns, or our children? At least that was my take on it. I don't really know the best way to try and articulate my thoughts. There are a lot of things that are happening in our country that really worry me.... they worry me for my future as well as that of my family & our country as a whole.
I agree...ultimately, the Sheriff, as the elected official who represents the citizens directly, is the one who should be settling this...that is the most powerful position that a person acan hold and it's taken far too lightly by some. I sure hope some good comes out of this rather than more confusion and infighting. | |
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| I've read everything out there about this situation, and I am still not sure what to make out of it. No doubt this gentleman "probably" is holding the moral high ground in this arguement. The government is not known for settling on the side of "right". He would probably have to write a book, to ever tell his side of the story. | |
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Posts: 1229
    Location: Royal J Performance Horses, AZ | Um... WHAT!!?!?!?!?! arent they trying to save these darn things? from the cattle/horses??
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/25/government-plans-to-euthanize... | |
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Expert
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| He is going to be the next Ruby Ridge, Waco "nut job" and Americans will be more worried about American Idol and the Voice to even care.
WHAT A SAD PLACE WE LIVE IN TODAY! | |
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 Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
  Location: Four Corners Colorado | Here is a facebook page to support Bundy
https://www.facebook.com/support.cliven.bundy | |
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| http://youtu.be/LhJ6H9vlEDA | |
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Dude took 3 shots from a tazer liker a champ!!
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| that video went from 350 views when I posted it to over 44,000 now. | |
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 Nicknameless
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     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This is a statement from Staton & Charolette Gleave & sons:
(Bundy ranch.jpg)
(Bundy Ranch 2.jpg)
Attachments ----------------
Bundy ranch.jpg (95KB - 244 downloads)
Bundy Ranch 2.jpg (36KB - 243 downloads)
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| I don't think people in the east can understand what it is like to run cattle in the west. Not really like leasing land from your neighbor! | |
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     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | river runner - 2014-04-10 5:29 AM I don't think people in the east can understand what it is like to run cattle in the west. Not really like leasing land from your neighbor!
If that's the case then they should just sit back and watch...that's the entire problem, people in the east believing they have a voice concerning our so-called 'public land' here in the west. Divide and conquer. In real life we don't get involved in issues we don't comprehend. What a mess, though...I live next to the future Red Rock Wilderness (if the enviro terrorists have their way) & getting support from like-minded folks is so hard cuz we're not brought up that way...yet, in order to maintain our Freedom, we need to fight fire with fire...it really goes against our grain to stick our nose where it doesn't belong...sure doesn't bother the 'other side' to cause all these problems, though! Lol... | |
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     Location: In The Land of Cotton | musikmaker - 2014-04-09 7:39 PM I guess it shouldn't surprise me when people say "the fee is nominal...just pay it" or "Everyone else pays it..."...but, it does. At what point do we say "Enough!"?
If we stoop for this...we'll stoop forever...
I've read some comments on the online KSL news report out of Salt Lake and find the varying views interesting...and alarming. Alas...we've gotten to the point that if it doesn't affect us directly then we don't care. Very sad...the 'What's in it for me?' mentality. Our forefathers didn't think that way & they put together a Nation that can endure if we have the guts to keep it. What they envisioned did not include the various gov't agencies who have slowly & assuredly claimed authority they do not possess.
I agree. I am so sick and tired of people and even relatives that say - well it won't affect me, it's not my business. Oh yes it is. | |
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          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | musikmaker - 2014-04-10 6:57 AM river runner - 2014-04-10 5:29 AM I don't think people in the east can understand what it is like to run cattle in the west. Not really like leasing land from your neighbor! If that's the case then they should just sit back and watch...that's the entire problem, people in the east believing they have a voice concerning our so-called 'public land' here in the west. Divide and conquer. In real life we don't get involved in issues we don't comprehend. What a mess, though...I live next to the future Red Rock Wilderness (if the enviro terrorists have their way) & getting support from like-minded folks is so hard cuz we're not brought up that way...yet, in order to maintain our Freedom, we need to fight fire with fire...it really goes against our grain to stick our nose where it doesn't belong...sure doesn't bother the 'other side' to cause all these problems, though! Lol...
I admitted on page 1 that I don't understand how all that works. I sure understand clueless people thinking they should get to dictate your agricultural practices tho...and thinking if only they were in your shoes, they could do it better. Have at it people, it's a free country, so what's stopping you? 
When did we get to the point that citizens feel helpless and victimized by the federal government to the point of standing up for nothing? What was the tipping point? Because my parents grew up believing that and I've heard it from them my whole life. Was it the post-civil war reconstruction for the southerners? Because they were obviously ready to fight for their rights before that. What happened in the rest of the country? Brainwashing in public education maybe? | |
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     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-10 6:45 AM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 6:57 AM river runner - 2014-04-10 5:29 AM I don't think people in the east can understand what it is like to run cattle in the west. Not really like leasing land from your neighbor! If that's the case then they should just sit back and watch...that's the entire problem, people in the east believing they have a voice concerning our so-called 'public land' here in the west. Divide and conquer. In real life we don't get involved in issues we don't comprehend. What a mess, though...I live next to the future Red Rock Wilderness (if the enviro terrorists have their way) & getting support from like-minded folks is so hard cuz we're not brought up that way...yet, in order to maintain our Freedom, we need to fight fire with fire...it really goes against our grain to stick our nose where it doesn't belong...sure doesn't bother the 'other side' to cause all these problems, though! Lol... I admitted on page 1 that I don't understand how all that works. I sure understand clueless people thinking they should get to dictate your agricultural practices tho...and thinking if only they were in your shoes, they could do it better. Have at it people, it's a free country, so what's stopping you?
When did we get to the point that citizens feel helpless and victimized by the federal government to the point of standing up for nothing? What was the tipping point? Because my parents grew up believing that and I've heard it from them my whole life. Was it the post-civil war reconstruction for the southerners? Because they were obviously ready to fight for their rights before that. What happened in the rest of the country? Brainwashing in public education maybe?
Boy...I sure wish I had the answer to that. I sincerely think it's because we fail to accept that terrible people exist...then we get paranoid and think ALL people are evil! Lol. My favorite saying of all time is: "People are only capable of comprehending feelings in other that they feel in themselves." It explains the hope...the 'log in the eye'...the inability to assess anothers character, thereby protecting ourselves. We just can't grasp the desperate measures others take...or the patience they have to manipulate situations and people. We assume that when a hand is lended it's sincere...because when we lend a hand we're sincere...so, here we are. We need to be much more diligent & much less gullable. What we really need to do is listen to that 'still voice', the one that leads us to decipher right from wrong...then follow it regardless of how rocky the road may become. The tipping point...I think it'll always take hard work to keep the wolves at bay. People give up & are relieved to hand over the guard to anyone willing to take it on...it's rarely the good guy that offers, it's the opportunists, the scallywags! Lol! Then we refuse to accept our role in our own demise. Crazy. The wrong side won the civil war. Actually...we're still fighting that one! States Rights vs Federal. That's all it ever was...so yeah, public schools don't teach the truth. Why would they? What has freed people from religious persecution to slavery was learning the written word...the ability to read and demand liberty & justice...in certain times, that very education was done privately as it was illegal! Yet, when our schools came under the thumb of the fed we lost the control of what our children learn.
As we all know, the victors write the history. Always have & if we're smart we'll keep that in mind...while still respecting our elders. What I'm saying is that to blindly 'believe like my daddy' is foolish...we better arm ourselves with truth instead of pride. We're dealing with many generations of this...and there were times that that was all people had...now we have options, we have info available to us like never before. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1094
    Location: Idahome | Itsme - 2014-04-09 8:39 PM
Dude took 3 shots from a tazer liker a champ!!
Just watched this and I really feel bad for the poor dogs that get put into the middle of this mess. I will say though, that to me it looks like the feds are outnumbered by the amount of people supporting Cliven. If the feds would put their weapons away there is no doubt in my mind they would get their azz handed to them on a platter by the supporters. I just hope no one gets seriously hurt or killed from all of this. | |
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| So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out… | |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out… In my opinion this is where they went wrong. The BLM is charged with "managing" the land. They can decrease or increase the allotments at their will, but what is driving those decisions? Special interest groups and environmentalists have such strong lobbying power that this agency no longer functions as it should. Why would a agency that should probably be filled with biologist, need so many hired guns? If they could correctly manage the land, and do the job they were originally charged with, this wouldn't be an issue. If we so willingly give up our rights, how long will it take to become subjects? Things that used to be a right are now a privlege. That privlege will become a crime. That crime will become a death sentance. You can stand where you want on this issue, but when it's your freedom, family and religion that are taken away, remember YOU allowed it to happen.
Edited by Whiteboy 2014-04-10 10:25 AM
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 Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
  Location: Four Corners Colorado | Whiteboy - 2014-04-10 9:20 AM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
In my opinion this is where they went wrong. The BLM is charged with "managing" the land. They can decrease or increase the allotments at their will, but what is driving those decisions? Special interest groups and environmentalists have such strong lobbying power that this agency no longer functions as it should. Why would a agency that should probably be filled with biologist, need so many hired guns? If they could correctly manage the land, and do the job they were originally charged with, this wouldn't be an issue.
If we so willingly give up our rights, how long will it take to become subjects? Things that used to be a right are now a privlege. That privlege will become a crime. That crime will become a death sentance. You can stand where you want on this issue, but when it's your freedom, family and religion that are taken away, remember YOU allowed it to happen.
   
That it right there. Honestly the BLM has done a crappy job managing the land anyway. If they were doing their jobs right shouldn't the land be in better condition? They need to take a look at how these ranchers improve the range. Maybe they should take a look at the work of Allan Savory and really make things better for the "endangered" species and the cattle/sheep/horses. They can co-exist. But it's not about that, it's about money and CONTROL. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
What would have happened if at the beginning, they had all stood together and refused to acknowledge federal authority? I wish the previous generations of farmers had done that rather than trade freedom for security. Because now we are dealing with an industry that has evolved around federal market control and manipulation and must bear the burden of hypocrisy to survive. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-10 10:34 AM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
What would have happened if at the beginning, they had all stood together and refused to acknowledge federal authority? I wish the previous generations of farmers had done that rather than trade freedom for security. Because now we are dealing with an industry that has evolved around federal market control and manipulation and must bear the burden of hypocrisy to survive.
How many readers of this forum are familiar w/ these quotes:
Ben Franklin Quotes
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Ben Franklin
”Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.”
”He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.”
”He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.”
”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.”
”If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both.”
”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
”He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.”
”Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither.”
”Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security.”
Ben Franklin
In other words The Feds can KISS MY AZZ! | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
Does your Flame Suit have eyes to READ The Constitution and a Mind to Comprehend The Constitution?
So I suppose you support The Federal Government and expect The Feds to take care of you and yours?! HA!
Hope you enjoy being a Subject! | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
      
| foundation horse - 2014-04-10 11:18 AM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
Does your Flame Suit have eyes to READ The Constitution and a Mind to Comprehend The Constitution?
So I suppose you support The Federal Government and expect The Feds to take care of you and yours?! HA!
Hope you enjoy being a Subject!
 | |
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| I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either. Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either. As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? | |
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| FlyingJT - 2014-04-10 11:50 AM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 11:18 AM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
Does your Flame Suit have eyes to READ The Constitution and a Mind to Comprehend The Constitution? So I suppose you support The Federal Government and expect The Feds to take care of you and yours?! HA! Hope you enjoy being a Subject! 
Yep those dang "First Amendment" zones... They would be useless if he would have paid his fees or removed his cattle. Could you imagine the sight of seeing a "first Amendment" zone set up in the middle of no-where and for absolutely no reason? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here ya go...everything you asked, from the horses mouth! In the words of my son: The level-headedness of Mr. Bundy is quite clear as is his motives. Time to put on our boots ladies and gentleman and stand behind him. He's walking a straight line, so must we.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkWljeiAhYI | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM
I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either. Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either. As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different?
From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal.
Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada.
Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment?
Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights.
I eagerly await your response(s). | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:13 PM
FlyingJT - 2014-04-10 11:50 AM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 11:18 AM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
Does your Flame Suit have eyes to READ The Constitution and a Mind to Comprehend The Constitution? So I suppose you support The Federal Government and expect The Feds to take care of you and yours?! HA! Hope you enjoy being a Subject! 
Yep those dang "First Amendment" zones... They would be useless if he would have paid his fees or removed his cattle. Could you imagine the sight of seeing a "first Amendment" zone set up in the middle of no-where and for absolutely no reason?
Does the Constitution require 'zones'? | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| As soon as some can tell me how the Fed. Gov. retained vast amounts of the west when the same land was granted statehood than I might buy the argument that the BLM has the authority it says it does. I find no such authority granted in the constitution. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | jbhoot - 2014-04-10 12:39 PM
As soon as some can tell me how the Fed. Gov. retained vast amounts of the west when the same land was granted statehood than I might buy the argument that the BLM has the authority it says it does. I find no such authority granted in the constitution.
Quite likely the same The Feds have created Constitutional 'Zones'. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed
Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | i watched his interview last night......he is getting what he deserves.........which is a completely separate issue from federal 'ownership' of all the acres.....which is continually increasing........nor is it part of the issue involved with beieng able to video what is taking place.......which is not just a problem with federal enforcers, it is every level of govt enforcement......
but, back to Bundy......run the sucker off..... | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario?
the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:46 PM
i watched his interview last night......he is getting what he deserves.........which is a completely separate issue from federal 'ownership' of all the acres.....which is continually increasing........nor is it part of the issue involved with beieng able to video what is taking place.......which is not just a problem with federal enforcers, it is every level of govt enforcement......
but, back to Bundy......run the sucker off.....
Who owns that particular land? The Feds or Clark County? Either way it is American Citizens not Federales! And per my understanding Cliven Bundy has attempted to pay grazing fees to Clark County Government. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario?
the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question
And what about Brand Inspections? And sales of nonBrand approved Cattle? Do you condone theft? Or sales of stolen property? | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Oh I have watched the youtube video(s) regarding Cliven Bundy. I am still awaiting bscanchaser response to my questions. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:50 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question And what about Brand Inspections? And sales of nonBrand approved Cattle? Do you condone theft? Or sales of stolen property?
not sure what point you are trying to make about brands......regardless, he should have moved his cattle if he wanted to keep them....i don't care if the govt sells every head and spends it all on strippers......
now, if you want to talk about citizens that have really had their rights stomped on then lets forget this dipstick bundy and talk about folks that have been raided by these various agencies, had property confiscated and never even been charged or conviceted and never received their property or compensation......happens all the frickin time.......those are where the real problems are....not this dufus.... | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:55 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:50 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question And what about Brand Inspections? And sales of nonBrand approved Cattle? Do you condone theft? Or sales of stolen property?
not sure what point you are trying to make about brands......regardless, he should have moved his cattle if he wanted to keep them....i don't care if the govt sells every head and spends it all on strippers......
now, if you want to talk about citizens that have really had their rights stomped on then lets forget this dipstick bundy and talk about folks that have been raided by these various agencies, had property confiscated and never even been charged or conviceted and never received their property or compensation......happens all the frickin time.......those are where the real problems are....not this dufus....
Not that I disagree with you, but this "dufus" as you have dubbed him is actually becoming the symbolic face of those you have mentioned. So in the 'Big Picture' this Guy is doing a Good Thing! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 11:47 AM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question
The 'black eye' you refer to is childs play compared to the loss of our country. Have either of you opened your minds to the possibility that Mr. Bundy is right? Are you continuing to gather info on this subject? Are you educating yourselves as to the history of our Nation and intent of our forefathers? Do you understand the history of our 'public land'?
Property taxes...one of the most insidious & UN Constitutional taxes to ever have been considered, much less implimented! In a nut shell...they strip each of us from having the power to own anything. They make us a 'subject'. Going along with laws that are wrong does not equal integrity or honor. Especially when those rules & regs come from an agency that's not answerable (as in elected) to the people...those rules are not legal. It's our DUTY to stand up against those who would oppress us or our neighbor. We have our 2nd Amendment rights...for when our 1st Amendment rights are being trampled... | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | well....that could end up being true.....and if he becomes a martyr that leads to change......more power to the people......
but his cows should still be sold and strippers and steaks aquired...... | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | musikmaker - 2014-04-10 1:03 PM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 11:47 AM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question
The 'black eye' you refer to is childs play compared to the loss of our country. Have either of you opened your minds to the possibility that Mr. Bundy is right? Are you continuing to gather info on this subject? Are you educating yourselves as to the history of our Nation and intent of our forefathers? Do you understand the history of our 'public land'?
Property taxes...one of the most insidious & UN Constitutional taxes to ever have been considered, much less implimented! In a nut shell...they strip each of us from having the power to own anything. They make us a 'subject'. Going along with laws that are wrong does not equal integrity or honor. Especially when those rules & regs come from an agency that's not answerable (as in elected) to the people...those rules are not legal. It's our DUTY to stand up against those who would oppress us or our neighbor. We have our 2nd Amendment rights...for when our 1st Amendment rights are being trampled...
MM, I stated something earlier in this discussion very similar in regards to unConstitutional property taxes. Seems not many people can grasp this concept. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | musikmaker - 2014-04-10 1:03 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 11:47 AM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question The 'black eye' you refer to is childs play compared to the loss of our country.
Have either of you opened your minds to the possibility that Mr. Bundy is right?
Are you continuing to gather info on this subject?
Are you educating yourselves as to the history of our Nation and intent of our forefathers?
Do you understand the history of our 'public land'?
Property taxes...one of the most insidious & UN Constitutional taxes to ever have been considered, much less implimented!
In a nut shell...they strip each of us from having the power to own anything. They make us a 'subject'.
Going along with laws that are wrong does not equal integrity or honor. Especially when those rules & regs come from an agency that's not answerable (as in elected) to the people...those rules are not legal.
It's our DUTY to stand up against those who would oppress us or our neighbor.
We have our 2nd Amendment rights...for when our 1st Amendment rights are being trampled...
do you pay property taxes??? | |
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| foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:18 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either.
Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either.
As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal. Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada. Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser ) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment? Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights. I eagerly await your response (s ).
Sorry to keep you hanging- I had some work to do. Yes I'm familiar with the 10th amendment... Apparently so is our state Governor since Sandoval activated the state militia to remove the BLM- oh wait, that didn't happen. His only concern was the first amendment areas in which he asked for them to be taken down- last I saw they were still in place so that was pressing. Idk, for some reason it seems like the county and state are both ok with allowing the BLM to handle this situation since they only asked that they reconsider their approach. Ever wonder if the State and County asked the BLM to intervene to protect their rights to the ground Bundy was illegally grazing? | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 1:07 PM
well....that could end up being true.....and if he becomes a martyr that leads to change......more power to the people......
but his cows should still be sold and strippers and steaks aquired......
Surprise. | |
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
      Location: Online | Maybe this is just what America needs. The more the government oversteps and bullies, the better the chance of waking a sleeping giant in the American people. This is why we need to fight for our rights, whether it's affecting us personally or not, because if they get away with this, that will only embolden them to go after everyone else. Right now our 2nd Amendment rights are most important, without that we are helpless. Our current administration knows this, as soon as they get their way, we're screwed.
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:09 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:18 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either.
Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either.
As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal. Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada. Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser ) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment? Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights. I eagerly await your response (s ).
Sorry to keep you hanging- I had some work to do. Yes I'm familiar with the 10th amendment... Apparently so is our state Governor since Sandoval activated the state militia to remove the BLM- oh wait, that didn't happen. His only concern was the first amendment areas in which he asked for them to be taken down- last I saw they were still in place so that was pressing. Idk, for some reason it seems like the county and state are both ok with allowing the BLM to handle this situation since they only asked that they reconsider their approach. Ever wonder if the State and County asked the BLM to intervene to protect their rights to the ground Bundy was illegally grazing?
I have as yet to see Constitutional Proof that Cliven Bundy was or is illegally grazing. Also, has the thought occurred to you that perhaps just perhaps there is great pressure being brought to bear on Nevada's Governor? And Clark County Governing Officials? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
      
| Opinions?
BLM Seeks Public Interest for Solar Energy Development in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Washington, D.C. - The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) today announced that it is accepting preliminary right-of-way (ROW) applications and expressions of interest from interested parties for conducting a solar competitive auction on the 5,717–acre Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone in Clark County, Nevada.
The BLM's current action builds on the Western Solar Energy Plan, a two-year planning effort conducted on behalf of the Secretary of the Interior and the Secretary of Energy to expand domestic energy production and spur development of solar energy on public lands in six western states. The Western Solar Energy Plan provides a blueprint for utility-scale solar energy permitting in Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Utah by establishing Solar Energy Zones with access to existing or planned transmission, incentives for development within those Solar Energy Zones, and a process through which to consider additional Solar Energy Zones and solar projects.
This public notification is the first step toward possible competitive solar energy development on public lands in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone. Once the 30 day notice period closes, the BLM will review all submissions from interested parties to see if other companies are interested in developing solar energy in these areas. If the BLM determines that sufficient competition exists, it may use a competitive bidding process, consistent with its regulations, to select a preferred applicant in the Solar Energy Zone.
“By locating projects in areas of high development potential and low resource conflict, the BLM is providing a more predictable process for industry while ensuring better outcomes for communities and the environment,” said Principal Deputy Director Neil Kornze. “In addition, competitive bidding for solar energy development ensures that we are securing a fair return for the American taxpayer.”
Today’s announcement also includes the release of the "Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone,” a pilot effort by the BLM that identifies mitigation priorities and options in advance of development. The strategy takes into account the resource conditions of the land and regional trends informed by BLM's recent Rapid Ecoregional Assessments. Regional mitigation plans are intended to provide a more predictable and effective landscape-scale approach to mitigation, while providing both greater certainty for project developers and more benefit to the natural resources affected by energy development. The Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone is the first of several pilot plans to be developed by the BLM.
The strategy was developed in collaboration with dozens of stakeholders to address key issues such as where and how mitigation may be achieved and the costs associated with doing so. The BLM will conduct additional stakeholder outreach on the development of future regional mitigation strategies for solar energy zones.
The Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone is available online at: http://on.doi.gov/1iJOtNb.
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:09 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:18 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either.
Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either.
As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal. Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada. Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser ) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment? Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights. I eagerly await your response (s ). Sorry to keep you hanging- I had some work to do. Yes I'm familiar with the 10th amendment... Apparently so is our state Governor since Sandoval activated the state militia to remove the BLM- oh wait, that didn't happen. His only concern was the first amendment areas in which he asked for them to be taken down- last I saw they were still in place so that was pressing. Idk, for some reason it seems like the county and state are both ok with allowing the BLM to handle this situation since they only asked that they reconsider their approach. Ever wonder if the State and County asked the BLM to intervene to protect their rights to the ground Bundy was illegally grazing? I have as yet to see Constitutional Proof that Cliven Bundy was or is illegally grazing. Also, has the thought occurred to you that perhaps just perhaps there is great pressure being brought to bear on Nevada's Governor? And Clark County Governing Officials?
you may not see constituional proof of this but Clive Bundy has over and over acknowledged this as BLM property and used this a s part of his argument.......can't have it both ways Clive.... | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | FlyingJT - 2014-04-10 1:22 PM Opinions? BLM Seeks Public Interest for Solar Energy Development in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone WASHINGTON, D.C. – Washington, D.C. - The Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) today announced that it is accepting preliminary right-of-way (ROW ) applications and expressions of interest from interested parties for conducting a solar competitive auction on the 5,717–acre Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone in Clark County, Nevada. The BLM's current action builds on the Western Solar Energy Plan, a two-year planning effort conducted on behalf of the Secretary of the Interior and the Secretary of Energy to expand domestic energy production and spur development of solar energy on public lands in six western states. The Western Solar Energy Plan provides a blueprint for utility-scale solar energy permitting in Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Utah by establishing Solar Energy Zones with access to existing or planned transmission, incentives for development within those Solar Energy Zones, and a process through which to consider additional Solar Energy Zones and solar projects. This public notification is the first step toward possible competitive solar energy development on public lands in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone. Once the 30 day notice period closes, the BLM will review all submissions from interested parties to see if other companies are interested in developing solar energy in these areas. If the BLM determines that sufficient competition exists, it may use a competitive bidding process, consistent with its regulations, to select a preferred applicant in the Solar Energy Zone. “By locating projects in areas of high development potential and low resource conflict, the BLM is providing a more predictable process for industry while ensuring better outcomes for communities and the environment,” said Principal Deputy Director Neil Kornze. “In addition, competitive bidding for solar energy development ensures that we are securing a fair return for the American taxpayer.” Today’s announcement also includes the release of the "Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone,” a pilot effort by the BLM that identifies mitigation priorities and options in advance of development. The strategy takes into account the resource conditions of the land and regional trends informed by BLM's recent Rapid Ecoregional Assessments. Regional mitigation plans are intended to provide a more predictable and effective landscape-scale approach to mitigation, while providing both greater certainty for project developers and more benefit to the natural resources affected by energy development. The Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone is the first of several pilot plans to be developed by the BLM. The strategy was developed in collaboration with dozens of stakeholders to address key issues such as where and how mitigation may be achieved and the costs associated with doing so. The BLM will conduct additional stakeholder outreach on the development of future regional mitigation strategies for solar energy zones. The Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone is available online at: http://on.doi.gov/1iJOtNb.
more frickin taxpayer waste...... | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | and to add to the rest of my opinion.....
i think the regulations regarding the desert tortoise were appropriate and a good compromise for the ranchers in that area...... | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FlyingJT - 2014-04-10 1:22 PM
Opinions?
BLM Seeks Public Interest for Solar Energy Development in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Washington, D.C. - The Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) today announced that it is accepting preliminary right-of-way (ROW ) applications and expressions of interest from interested parties for conducting a solar competitive auction on the 5,717–acre Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone in Clark County, Nevada.
The BLM's current action builds on the Western Solar Energy Plan, a two-year planning effort conducted on behalf of the Secretary of the Interior and the Secretary of Energy to expand domestic energy production and spur development of solar energy on public lands in six western states. The Western Solar Energy Plan provides a blueprint for utility-scale solar energy permitting in Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Utah by establishing Solar Energy Zones with access to existing or planned transmission, incentives for development within those Solar Energy Zones, and a process through which to consider additional Solar Energy Zones and solar projects.
This public notification is the first step toward possible competitive solar energy development on public lands in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone. Once the 30 day notice period closes, the BLM will review all submissions from interested parties to see if other companies are interested in developing solar energy in these areas. If the BLM determines that sufficient competition exists, it may use a competitive bidding process, consistent with its regulations, to select a preferred applicant in the Solar Energy Zone.
“By locating projects in areas of high development potential and low resource conflict, the BLM is providing a more predictable process for industry while ensuring better outcomes for communities and the environment,” said Principal Deputy Director Neil Kornze. “In addition, competitive bidding for solar energy development ensures that we are securing a fair return for the American taxpayer.”
Today’s announcement also includes the release of the "Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone,” a pilot effort by the BLM that identifies mitigation priorities and options in advance of development. The strategy takes into account the resource conditions of the land and regional trends informed by BLM's recent Rapid Ecoregional Assessments. Regional mitigation plans are intended to provide a more predictable and effective landscape-scale approach to mitigation, while providing both greater certainty for project developers and more benefit to the natural resources affected by energy development. The Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone is the first of several pilot plans to be developed by the BLM.
The strategy was developed in collaboration with dozens of stakeholders to address key issues such as where and how mitigation may be achieved and the costs associated with doing so. The BLM will conduct additional stakeholder outreach on the development of future regional mitigation strategies for solar energy zones.
The Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone is available online at: http://on.doi.gov/1iJOtNb.
Coincidence that the BLM is just now enforcing Grazing Permits? I think not. Follow the money folks! | |
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| foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:09 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:18 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either.
Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either.
As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal. Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada. Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser ) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment? Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights. I eagerly await your response (s ). Sorry to keep you hanging- I had some work to do. Yes I'm familiar with the 10th amendment... Apparently so is our state Governor since Sandoval activated the state militia to remove the BLM- oh wait, that didn't happen. His only concern was the first amendment areas in which he asked for them to be taken down- last I saw they were still in place so that was pressing. Idk, for some reason it seems like the county and state are both ok with allowing the BLM to handle this situation since they only asked that they reconsider their approach. Ever wonder if the State and County asked the BLM to intervene to protect their rights to the ground Bundy was illegally grazing? I have as yet to see Constitutional Proof that Cliven Bundy was or is illegally grazing. Also, has the thought occurred to you that perhaps just perhaps there is great pressure being brought to bear on Nevada's Governor? And Clark County Governing Officials?
Well I guess the Constitutional proof is that Clark County, Nevada purchased all rights to this land and declared it a no-grazing permit area after Bundy refused to pay his fees. Nothing was taken from him until he choices allowed the permit to sell to another entity- typically happens in non-payment instances. Clark county refused to accept his payment because they don't want him out there. I would imagine the pressure isn't to refrain from getting involved- I would be Pi$&ed off if I paid rent and some freeloader took up residence without my permission. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 1:26 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:09 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:18 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either.
Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either.
As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal. Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada. Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser ) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment? Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights. I eagerly await your response (s ). Sorry to keep you hanging- I had some work to do. Yes I'm familiar with the 10th amendment... Apparently so is our state Governor since Sandoval activated the state militia to remove the BLM- oh wait, that didn't happen. His only concern was the first amendment areas in which he asked for them to be taken down- last I saw they were still in place so that was pressing. Idk, for some reason it seems like the county and state are both ok with allowing the BLM to handle this situation since they only asked that they reconsider their approach. Ever wonder if the State and County asked the BLM to intervene to protect their rights to the ground Bundy was illegally grazing? I have as yet to see Constitutional Proof that Cliven Bundy was or is illegally grazing. Also, has the thought occurred to you that perhaps just perhaps there is great pressure being brought to bear on Nevada's Governor? And Clark County Governing Officials?
you may not see constituional proof of this but Clive Bundy has over and over acknowledged this as BLM property and used this a s part of his argument.......can't have it both ways Clive....
Then what of Cliven Bundy's claim dating back to the 1880s? Which by the way predates Nevada as a State and The BLM. | |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:46 PM i watched his interview last night......he is getting what he deserves.........which is a completely separate issue from federal 'ownership' of all the acres.....which is continually increasing........nor is it part of the issue involved with beieng able to video what is taking place.......which is not just a problem with federal enforcers, it is every level of govt enforcement......
but, back to Bundy......run the sucker off.....
And then once he is gone, move onto each national park and monument and run off the cattlemen, then close the roads, then run off the horseback riders. After all it should be the granola eating, subaru driving hippies that should have uninterupted access.
Oh wait...that is already happening. (Escalante Grand Staircase National Monument) | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
      
| dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 1:26 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:09 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:18 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either.
Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either.
As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal. Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada. Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser ) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment? Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights. I eagerly await your response (s ). Sorry to keep you hanging- I had some work to do. Yes I'm familiar with the 10th amendment... Apparently so is our state Governor since Sandoval activated the state militia to remove the BLM- oh wait, that didn't happen. His only concern was the first amendment areas in which he asked for them to be taken down- last I saw they were still in place so that was pressing. Idk, for some reason it seems like the county and state are both ok with allowing the BLM to handle this situation since they only asked that they reconsider their approach. Ever wonder if the State and County asked the BLM to intervene to protect their rights to the ground Bundy was illegally grazing? I have as yet to see Constitutional Proof that Cliven Bundy was or is illegally grazing. Also, has the thought occurred to you that perhaps just perhaps there is great pressure being brought to bear on Nevada's Governor? And Clark County Governing Officials?
you may not see constituional proof of this but Clive Bundy has over and over acknowledged this as BLM property and used this a s part of his argument.......can't have it both ways Clive....
Lets put this in the perspective of an average citizen(thank you Amy): What if this the government suddenly controlled the street in front of your house. Imagine that you start paying a toll each month to utilize that street as well as paying your taxes, and then the toll increases, and then it goes from monthly to daily, and it continues to get more and more restrictive and then you attempt to take these matters before your representatives and before your courts but they just ignore your problems because they are getting paid by the same people that you are butting heads with. Then you realize that you are going into Court and the things said within the court room are not reflected in the transcripts and your right to record it yourself is prohibited. And then let it sink in that every dime you pay in taxes and tolls is being used in every way to combat all that you do to bring awareness to the situation.
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:32 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 1:26 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:09 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:18 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either.
Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either.
As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal. Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada. Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser ) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment? Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights. I eagerly await your response (s ). Sorry to keep you hanging- I had some work to do. Yes I'm familiar with the 10th amendment... Apparently so is our state Governor since Sandoval activated the state militia to remove the BLM- oh wait, that didn't happen. His only concern was the first amendment areas in which he asked for them to be taken down- last I saw they were still in place so that was pressing. Idk, for some reason it seems like the county and state are both ok with allowing the BLM to handle this situation since they only asked that they reconsider their approach. Ever wonder if the State and County asked the BLM to intervene to protect their rights to the ground Bundy was illegally grazing? I have as yet to see Constitutional Proof that Cliven Bundy was or is illegally grazing. Also, has the thought occurred to you that perhaps just perhaps there is great pressure being brought to bear on Nevada's Governor? And Clark County Governing Officials? you may not see constituional proof of this but Clive Bundy has over and over acknowledged this as BLM property and used this a s part of his argument.......can't have it both ways Clive.... Then what of Cliven Bundy's claim dating back to the 1880s? Which by the way predates Nevada as a State and The BLM.
which is trying to have it both ways.......hippocritical.....you can't pay the fees, get ****ed that they reduce your stocking rates, quit paying fees, claim it's the landowners responsibility (BLM) to fence out these areas of concern to keep Bundy's cattle out based on state law, then claim it's all your property anyway because you had a melon farm and a few wandering cattle in the 1880's and never bothered to deed anything.....then go on to claim that any unbranded cattle found in this 600,000 acres must be yours.... | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:08 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 1:03 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 11:47 AM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question The 'black eye' you refer to is childs play compared to the loss of our country.
Have either of you opened your minds to the possibility that Mr. Bundy is right?
Are you continuing to gather info on this subject?
Are you educating yourselves as to the history of our Nation and intent of our forefathers?
Do you understand the history of our 'public land'?
Property taxes...one of the most insidious & UN Constitutional taxes to ever have been considered, much less implimented!
In a nut shell...they strip each of us from having the power to own anything. They make us a 'subject'.
Going along with laws that are wrong does not equal integrity or honor. Especially when those rules & regs come from an agency that's not answerable (as in elected) to the people...those rules are not legal.
It's our DUTY to stand up against those who would oppress us or our neighbor.
We have our 2nd Amendment rights...for when our 1st Amendment rights are being trampled...
do you pay property taxes???
Lol...point taken! I sure hope some of this leads to an uprising in that regard, though! Gotta start somewhere! | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | here's the case we should be outraged by.....
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152735638969167&set=vb.71233394166&type=2&theater | |
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| foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:32 PM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 1:26 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:09 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:18 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either.
Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either.
As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal. Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada. Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser ) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment? Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights. I eagerly await your response (s ). Sorry to keep you hanging- I had some work to do. Yes I'm familiar with the 10th amendment... Apparently so is our state Governor since Sandoval activated the state militia to remove the BLM- oh wait, that didn't happen. His only concern was the first amendment areas in which he asked for them to be taken down- last I saw they were still in place so that was pressing. Idk, for some reason it seems like the county and state are both ok with allowing the BLM to handle this situation since they only asked that they reconsider their approach. Ever wonder if the State and County asked the BLM to intervene to protect their rights to the ground Bundy was illegally grazing? I have as yet to see Constitutional Proof that Cliven Bundy was or is illegally grazing. Also, has the thought occurred to you that perhaps just perhaps there is great pressure being brought to bear on Nevada's Governor? And Clark County Governing Officials?
you may not see constituional proof of this but Clive Bundy has over and over acknowledged this as BLM property and used this a s part of his argument.......can't have it both ways Clive....
Then what of Cliven Bundy's claim dating back to the 1880s? Which by the way predates Nevada as a State and The BLM.
Have you seen any paperwork to prove this? Ya, me neither. I guess that's probably why he lost the court cases. You are listening to one mans story which seems to contain a fair bit of double speak at times when you compare different things that have been said. He has clear title of 150 acres that I have found- nothing more, nothing less. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | musikmaker - 2014-04-10 1:39 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:08 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 1:03 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 11:47 AM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question The 'black eye' you refer to is childs play compared to the loss of our country.
Have either of you opened your minds to the possibility that Mr. Bundy is right?
Are you continuing to gather info on this subject?
Are you educating yourselves as to the history of our Nation and intent of our forefathers?
Do you understand the history of our 'public land'?
Property taxes...one of the most insidious & UN Constitutional taxes to ever have been considered, much less implimented!
In a nut shell...they strip each of us from having the power to own anything. They make us a 'subject'.
Going along with laws that are wrong does not equal integrity or honor. Especially when those rules & regs come from an agency that's not answerable (as in elected) to the people...those rules are not legal.
It's our DUTY to stand up against those who would oppress us or our neighbor.
We have our 2nd Amendment rights...for when our 1st Amendment rights are being trampled...
do you pay property taxes??? Lol...point taken!
I sure hope some of this leads to an uprising in that regard, though! Gotta start somewhere!
fair enough.....
i agree though that the people need to start taking back control from these agencies and the govt that has turned them loose....on every level....and i think you are seeing more of it.... | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 1:35 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:32 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 1:26 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:09 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:18 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either.
Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either.
As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal. Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada. Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser ) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment? Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights. I eagerly await your response (s ). Sorry to keep you hanging- I had some work to do. Yes I'm familiar with the 10th amendment... Apparently so is our state Governor since Sandoval activated the state militia to remove the BLM- oh wait, that didn't happen. His only concern was the first amendment areas in which he asked for them to be taken down- last I saw they were still in place so that was pressing. Idk, for some reason it seems like the county and state are both ok with allowing the BLM to handle this situation since they only asked that they reconsider their approach. Ever wonder if the State and County asked the BLM to intervene to protect their rights to the ground Bundy was illegally grazing? I have as yet to see Constitutional Proof that Cliven Bundy was or is illegally grazing. Also, has the thought occurred to you that perhaps just perhaps there is great pressure being brought to bear on Nevada's Governor? And Clark County Governing Officials? you may not see constituional proof of this but Clive Bundy has over and over acknowledged this as BLM property and used this a s part of his argument.......can't have it both ways Clive.... Then what of Cliven Bundy's claim dating back to the 1880s? Which by the way predates Nevada as a State and The BLM.
which is trying to have it both ways.......hippocritical.....you can't pay the fees, get ****ed that they reduce your stocking rates, quit paying fees, claim it's the landowners responsibility (BLM) to fence out these areas of concern to keep Bundy's cattle out based on state law, then claim it's all your property anyway because you had a melon farm and a few wandering cattle in the 1880's and never bothered to deed anything.....then go on to claim that any unbranded cattle found in this 600,000 acres must be yours....
Per Cliven Bundy, he has made land improvements (water holes, fencing, gates, etc) that the BLM refused to do. I would imagine that these improvements were done when Cliven was still paying Grazing Fees. What about these investments? | |
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| foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:43 PM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 1:35 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:32 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 1:26 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:09 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:18 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either.
Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either.
As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal. Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada. Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser ) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment? Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights. I eagerly await your response (s ). Sorry to keep you hanging- I had some work to do. Yes I'm familiar with the 10th amendment... Apparently so is our state Governor since Sandoval activated the state militia to remove the BLM- oh wait, that didn't happen. His only concern was the first amendment areas in which he asked for them to be taken down- last I saw they were still in place so that was pressing. Idk, for some reason it seems like the county and state are both ok with allowing the BLM to handle this situation since they only asked that they reconsider their approach. Ever wonder if the State and County asked the BLM to intervene to protect their rights to the ground Bundy was illegally grazing? I have as yet to see Constitutional Proof that Cliven Bundy was or is illegally grazing. Also, has the thought occurred to you that perhaps just perhaps there is great pressure being brought to bear on Nevada's Governor? And Clark County Governing Officials? you may not see constituional proof of this but Clive Bundy has over and over acknowledged this as BLM property and used this a s part of his argument.......can't have it both ways Clive.... Then what of Cliven Bundy's claim dating back to the 1880s? Which by the way predates Nevada as a State and The BLM.
which is trying to have it both ways.......hippocritical.....you can't pay the fees, get ****ed that they reduce your stocking rates, quit paying fees, claim it's the landowners responsibility (BLM) to fence out these areas of concern to keep Bundy's cattle out based on state law, then claim it's all your property anyway because you had a melon farm and a few wandering cattle in the 1880's and never bothered to deed anything.....then go on to claim that any unbranded cattle found in this 600,000 acres must be yours....
Per Cliven Bundy, he has made land improvements (water holes, fencing, gates, etc ) that the BLM refused to do. I would imagine that these improvements were done when Cliven was still paying Grazing Fees. What about these investments?
No different than putting in granite counter tops and tile floors- when your house gets repossessed you tend to not have rights to that anymore. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:32 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 1:26 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:09 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:18 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either.
Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either.
As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal. Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada. Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser ) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment? Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights. I eagerly await your response (s ). Sorry to keep you hanging- I had some work to do. Yes I'm familiar with the 10th amendment... Apparently so is our state Governor since Sandoval activated the state militia to remove the BLM- oh wait, that didn't happen. His only concern was the first amendment areas in which he asked for them to be taken down- last I saw they were still in place so that was pressing. Idk, for some reason it seems like the county and state are both ok with allowing the BLM to handle this situation since they only asked that they reconsider their approach. Ever wonder if the State and County asked the BLM to intervene to protect their rights to the ground Bundy was illegally grazing? I have as yet to see Constitutional Proof that Cliven Bundy was or is illegally grazing. Also, has the thought occurred to you that perhaps just perhaps there is great pressure being brought to bear on Nevada's Governor? And Clark County Governing Officials? you may not see constituional proof of this but Clive Bundy has over and over acknowledged this as BLM property and used this a s part of his argument.......can't have it both ways Clive.... Then what of Cliven Bundy's claim dating back to the 1880s? Which by the way predates Nevada as a State and The BLM. Have you seen any paperwork to prove this? Ya, me neither. I guess that's probably why he lost the court cases. You are listening to one mans story which seems to contain a fair bit of double speak at times when you compare different things that have been said. He has clear title of 150 acres that I have found- nothing more, nothing less.
Hold on there...once upon a time, when the land was considered 'wasteland', the gov't, in order to live up to their end of the deal (disposing of land per Treaty), offered much more than the 160 acre homestead...many folks took advantage of it & some even had thousands of acres...in 1910 and therebouts, the fed 'retracted' these land grants, leaving many a rancher at the mercy of leasing from the gov't. They did this due to 'monopoly laws', which seriously makes me ask how 'they' or say, the Nature Conservancy bunch, can now 'own' huge tracts of land...talk about hypocricy...or should we call it what it really is? Thievery. BTW...Bundy has never said that the BLM owns the land...he maintains that the people of Clark County Neveada ownit and I agree. | |
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 Cactus Cowgirl
Posts: 2791
       Location: Montana | jbhoot - 2014-04-08 12:15 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-08 12:24 PM he should have paid his rent......which is pretty cheap to start with.....i don't really have any sympathy for him in regards to his ranch and living of the govt for free for the last couple of decades......so, the govt moves off his cattle ....big deal....and so they have half an army.....i don't really care either....there is a risk that it could turn into a shootout.....
but....i have a huge problem with the family members being mistreated for documenting this.....but this happens with law enforcement at every level and people need to wake up and realize that most of those involved in law enforcement do not have our rights in mind when it comes to protection......they protect the govt.....and themselves... I would agree with you if all the facts are true. But when you read deeper this rancher and his family have been using this land since the 1880's. I tend to agree with the rancher. When you look at the history of this land I am not to sure that the BLM has a right to this land. It is certainly a gray area.
Ok, I have not read all of this, so if this has been brought up, I apologize. The 1880 crap is a mute point. If the family was tilling that land then, they should have filed for a homestead like thousands of other would be ranchers and farmers did back in the day. The Allan Savory deal really set me off. We have neighbors who are operating under the Allan Savory grazing and let me tell, it may work in certain soil and climates. It does not work here and I believe Nevada has similiar soil and conditions. You have to have lots of water for one thing. From what I have read the BLM is in the wrong for letting this man graze his cattle for 20 some years without paying a dime. We also have BLM leases and due to sage chickens have certain times we can't be on the land. We abide by the rules or we loose our lease. End of story. Also you do not purchase leases like you do private land. As ranches are sold the leases go with the ranch at BLM approval. If you do not abide by the lease agreements they can offer the lease to others. | |
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| dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario?
the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question
Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when opposition has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | musikmaker - 2014-04-10 1:49 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:32 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 1:26 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 1:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:09 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:18 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:07 PM I could understand if this was his private land but it’s not... I could understand if he was being removed after paying his dues but that didn’t happen either. I have asked several times on several different discussions and have yet to have someone answer- what makes him have concrete rights to this land that he doesn’t own? Beyond the bleeding heart story, this is basically a Democrat rancher who is living off the government and people because he, himself, determined that he is entitled to free grazing. Again, if he would have taken care of business then this would be a non-issue and as it is now his rights to the land are the same as everyone else’s meaning no grazing rights because Clark County bought out the permit and elimated the area from grazing rights to protect the tortis- Ever wonder why the Clark county sheriff hasn't intervened since it’s his jurisdiction? Probably because they leased the rights and are pushing for the trespasser to be removed. The reason Clark county wouldn’t accept his money for grazing payment is because they don’t want him there either.
Since both of you live in the western states, I know you understand the land. Why shouldn't the BLM be able to reduce or revoke AUM's? Seriously, when Nevada catches on fire it’s not a nice little campfire- its typically huge acreage loss and with the average of 7" of precipitation per year it takes a while (years/decades) to re-vegetate. I’m by no means an environmentalist or government supporter, but why should this particular rancher’s grazing come before anything else? BLM land isn’t designated for only cattle; People use these areas for hunting, trail rides, hiking, sight-seeing, photography... if the lands not supported then none of the other uses will be either.
As far as “rights” go...laws were put into place to protect common people. Whether it’s at the city, county, state or federal level majority of people seem to abide by everything other law so why is this one different? From my understanding The Cliven Bundy Ranching Claim dates back to the 1880s, predating Nevada as a State I believe. Now on whose Authority and when was the Bureau of Land Management created? Answer 1934 under FDR and His New Deal. Also, per Cliven Bundy he has made Land Improvements that the unConstitutional BLM has refused to do, all the while offering to pay Grazing Fees first to the unConstitutional BLM and then to Clark County Nevada. Now another question: Are You (bscanchaser ) familiar with The U.S. Constitution? And particularly The 10th Amendment? Because per The Constitution, The BLM is unauthorized and The 10th Amendment protects States' Rights. I eagerly await your response (s ). Sorry to keep you hanging- I had some work to do. Yes I'm familiar with the 10th amendment... Apparently so is our state Governor since Sandoval activated the state militia to remove the BLM- oh wait, that didn't happen. His only concern was the first amendment areas in which he asked for them to be taken down- last I saw they were still in place so that was pressing. Idk, for some reason it seems like the county and state are both ok with allowing the BLM to handle this situation since they only asked that they reconsider their approach. Ever wonder if the State and County asked the BLM to intervene to protect their rights to the ground Bundy was illegally grazing? I have as yet to see Constitutional Proof that Cliven Bundy was or is illegally grazing. Also, has the thought occurred to you that perhaps just perhaps there is great pressure being brought to bear on Nevada's Governor? And Clark County Governing Officials? you may not see constituional proof of this but Clive Bundy has over and over acknowledged this as BLM property and used this a s part of his argument.......can't have it both ways Clive.... Then what of Cliven Bundy's claim dating back to the 1880s? Which by the way predates Nevada as a State and The BLM. Have you seen any paperwork to prove this? Ya, me neither. I guess that's probably why he lost the court cases. You are listening to one mans story which seems to contain a fair bit of double speak at times when you compare different things that have been said. He has clear title of 150 acres that I have found- nothing more, nothing less. Hold on there...once upon a time, when the land was considered 'wasteland', the gov't, in order to live up to their end of the deal (disposing of land per Treaty), offered much more than the 160 acre homestead...many folks took advantage of it & some even had thousands of acres...in 1910 and therebouts, the fed 'retracted' these land grants, leaving many a rancher at the mercy of leasing from the gov't. They did this due to 'monopoly laws', which seriously makes me ask how 'they' or say, the Nature Conservancy bunch, can now 'own' huge tracts of land...talk about hypocricy...or should we call it what it really is? Thievery.
BTW...Bundy has never said that the BLM owns the land...he maintains that the people of Clark County Neveada ownit and I agree.
don't even get me started on these fricking 'conservation' groups and their land ownership (free from taxation) and their permanent easements (another thing that should be illegal and dissolve with change of ownership) ;........yes, hippocricy (i prefer a hippo reference) it is not.....call it what it is thievery....
WHEN ARE THOSE IN AGRICULTURE AND EVEN SPORTSMEN GOING TO WAKE UP.......
DUCKS UNLIMITED, NATURE'S CONSERVANCY, PHEASANTS FOREVER, ROCKY MOUNTAIN ELK FOUNDATION....ON AND ON AND ON......ALL OF THE 'CONSERVATION' GROUPS WANT NOTHING MORE BUT TO CONTROL THE LAND AND EVENTUALLY ALLOW NO AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTION OR HUNTING.....WAKE UP FARMERS, RANCHERS AND HUNTERS......YOU THINK THESE EASEMENTS ARE FREE MONEY...AND RIGHT NOW THEY CAN BE HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY AND GROWING....THEY AREN'T....AND SOMEDAY THEY WILL BE USED TO TELL YOUR GRANDKIDS THAT THEIR DAYS OF FARMING, RANCHING AND HUNTING ARE OVER....WITH THE HELP OF THE GOVT YOU ARE ELECTING.... | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | They just had a piece on this on Fox news and they said they were removing his cattle because of an endangered tortoise. I just love how ALL the news agencies report the news half ass. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | well.....that is the short version.... | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done.
Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side. And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know. Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way. I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle! America better wake the heck up. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
      
| musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
Against all enemies, foriegn and DOMESTIC! | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done.
Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side. And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know. Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way. I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle! America better wake the heck up.
In my original response I told bscanchaser I hoped she or he and theirs liked being a subject. Turns out I was closer than I thought! ETA Hail to The Feds!
As Me and Mine: We like Our Freedom! And don't need the Feds!
Edited by foundation horse 2014-04-10 2:27 PM
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Holy Fruit Loops!
Posts: 1708
    Location: Colorado | musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
Right side?? They are American citizens, hired to do a job! Bundy is the one who called for a Range war and is workin towards getting every goofy milita want a be in the country involved.
Those cowboys who are there moving cattle are not the bad guys and they do not deserve to be shot at or treated like dirt either. Thanks to the Bundy family and their videos Growney Brothers Rodeo Co. is now receiving death threats.
If Bundy feels it is time for a range war he needs to be front and center. And it is with the court system NOT a bunch of cowboys trying to make some day money to support their families!
karen | |
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
      Location: Online | This isn't about a ****ing contest between a rancher and the government. It's about government control. We can argue who's right and who's wrong until our fingers bleed, it won't do any good. Somebody needs to stand up to this overzealous government.
We were renting some pasture from a company who was leasing from the BLM. (yes it was legal) Anyway, we were using our time and money to maintain those pastures. Keeping sucker trees down, weeds out, overseeding thin spots, maintaining the irrigation system, etc. Well some goon from the BLM came along and decided that we were over grazing. There was 5 acres total and we had 4 sometimes 5 horses grazing. For 10 years it was like that. Every year the grass was tall and healthy, it could sustain 5 horses from April well into November every year. Well this book educated goon decides that we can't have horses in there in the winter because they kill the grass. We were no longer allowed to spray weeds, we had to get approval for everything we did. For 10 YEARS we did the same thing with no issue. So we gave them the 1 finger salute and left. You should see those pastures now. The grass has died out for lack of water, they are over grown with sucker trees and weeds. Yep, the BLM knows what's right.
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
I believe there is more to the rest of the story. Bscanchaser, is your neighbor part of Law Enforcement under orders to conficate these cattle? Or is He one of the Contract Cowboys who would/will divide up the proceeds of the sale(s) of these nonbrand approved conficated cattle? Your answer (if there is one) will be telling. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 448
     Location: lone star state | Another waste of tax payer dollars! | |
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Holy Fruit Loops!
Posts: 1708
    Location: Colorado | foundation horse - 2014-04-10 2:36 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
I believe there is more to the rest of the story.
Bscanchaser, is your neighbor part of Law Enforcement under orders to conficate these cattle? Or is He one of the Contract Cowboys who would/will divide up the proceeds of the sale(s) of these nonbrand approved conficated cattle?
Your answer (if there is one ) will be telling.
Do you have ANY proof that is what will happen? Or are you making this up as you go?
karen | |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done.
Would you sell your soul for a nickel? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Stitch4k9 - 2014-04-10 1:31 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
Right side?? They are American citizens, hired to do a job! Bundy is the one who called for a Range war and is workin towards getting every goofy milita want a be in the country involved.
Those cowboys who are there moving cattle are not the bad guys and they do not deserve to be shot at or treated like dirt either.
Thanks to the Bundy family and their videos Growney Brothers Rodeo Co. is now receiving death threats.
If Bundy feels it is time for a range war he needs to be front and center. And it is with the court system NOT a bunch of cowboys trying to make some day money to support their families!
karen
Then they should quit their job. It certainly says a lot about their character...just doing my job...ugh. those kinds of people are what's wrong with this world. You know...I've been in the line of fire for things I believed in, but, NEVER for something I didn't believe in. There is a right and a wrong. Period. Yeah....Bundy should do this alone...just look how well it turned out for Randy Weaver...uh huh. AND...the court system is so dysfunctional...what do you call 2 lawyers and a judge who meet in the judge's chambers? A conspiracy. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here's another video...I rather like this one! Haven't found it except on FB...yet! https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=691822670875219
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
     Location: In The Land of Cotton | Stitch4k9 - 2014-04-10 3:40 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 2:36 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
I believe there is more to the rest of the story.
Bscanchaser, is your neighbor part of Law Enforcement under orders to conficate these cattle? Or is He one of the Contract Cowboys who would/will divide up the proceeds of the sale(s) of these nonbrand approved conficated cattle?
Your answer (if there is one ) will be telling. Do you have ANY proof that is what will happen? Or are you making this up as you go?
karen
Kristen Cannon, a spokesman of the BLM said this (and sorry it is copy and paste from a news article) - The bureau last week announced the area would be closed through May 12 while contractors conduct the roundup using helicopters, vehicles and temporary pens. Cannon said the agency paid the contractors $966,000. | |
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| foundation horse - 2014-04-10 2:25 PM
musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done.
Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side. And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know. Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way. I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle! America better wake the heck up.
In my original response I told bscanchaser I hoped she or he and theirs liked being a subject. Turns out I was closer than I thought! ETA Hail to The Feds!
As Me and Mine: We like Our Freedom! And don't need the Feds!
LOL- I guess the rest of the story is that he is LSD, knows the Bundy family well from growing up near them but isn't going to quit his paying job to support the cause because he is the only source of income. I don't really know these people because I'm not Mormon and like wine- I just happened to ask how she was when I was doing some fence work yesterday and she was walking by our place. Btw- her husband works for the US forest service... Usually manned the cleanup/prison crews so I'm sure he's a spotter down there.
Wait- you're going to have to educate me- I thought the "right" side represented the people that actually worked to afford to pay for what they have and dont expect free services. He seems to be more to the left in my opinion as he comes off as a welfare rancher that is wanting free grazing. BTW- he could have protected his property by removing them himself. Maybe a lawyer on here can chime in but basically the BLM/Clark county did their due diligence by trying to get him to remove his herd for the last 20 years. Since he didn't and seems to have abandoned his cattle- does that truly fall under the definition of theft? Especially since a large number aren't branded- how can he prove he actually owns them? If my memory serves me right, the BLM did give him the option to purchase his back cattle with his brand prior to the auction. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Stitch4k9 - 2014-04-10 2:31 PM
musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
Right side?? They are American citizens, hired to do a job! Bundy is the one who called for a Range war and is workin towards getting every goofy milita want a be in the country involved.
Those cowboys who are there moving cattle are not the bad guys and they do not deserve to be shot at or treated like dirt either. Thanks to the Bundy family and their videos Growney Brothers Rodeo Co. is now receiving death threats.
If Bundy feels it is time for a range war he needs to be front and center. And it is with the court system NOT a bunch of cowboys trying to make some day money to support their families!
karen
No one (yet) has provided information in regards to how and who will profit by the sale of Cliven Bundy's confiscated cattle. There is question and reason to believe that the 'contract cowboys' very well may share in these proceeds beyond day wages. Stolen Property laws obviously do not apply when it comes to The Feds. | |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| 3canstorun - 2014-04-10 2:49 PM Stitch4k9 - 2014-04-10 3:40 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 2:36 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
I believe there is more to the rest of the story.
Bscanchaser, is your neighbor part of Law Enforcement under orders to conficate these cattle? Or is He one of the Contract Cowboys who would/will divide up the proceeds of the sale(s) of these nonbrand approved conficated cattle?
Your answer (if there is one ) will be telling. Do you have ANY proof that is what will happen? Or are you making this up as you go?
karen Kristen Cannon, a spokesman of the BLM said this (and sorry it is copy and paste from a news article ) - The bureau last week announced the area would be closed through May 12 while contractors conduct the roundup using helicopters, vehicles and temporary pens. Cannon said the agency paid the contractors $966,000.
There is also a ton of money in drug dealing and human trafficking, but that doesn't make it right! | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Stitch4k9 - 2014-04-10 2:40 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-10 2:36 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
I believe there is more to the rest of the story.
Bscanchaser, is your neighbor part of Law Enforcement under orders to conficate these cattle? Or is He one of the Contract Cowboys who would/will divide up the proceeds of the sale(s) of these nonbrand approved conficated cattle?
Your answer (if there is one ) will be telling.
Do you have ANY proof that is what will happen? Or are you making this up as you go?
karen
Do YOU have any documentation to prove otherwise? Remember the current cattle is at record levels. And should the offered deal been 'You (contract cowboys) round em up you split the proceeds'? Not the first time something like this has happened in history.......................And History has a habit of repeating itself. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
      
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Holy Fruit Loops!
Posts: 1708
    Location: Colorado | foundation horse - 2014-04-10 2:52 PM Stitch4k9 - 2014-04-10 2:31 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
Right side?? They are American citizens, hired to do a job! Bundy is the one who called for a Range war and is workin towards getting every goofy milita want a be in the country involved.
Those cowboys who are there moving cattle are not the bad guys and they do not deserve to be shot at or treated like dirt either.
Thanks to the Bundy family and their videos Growney Brothers Rodeo Co. is now receiving death threats.
If Bundy feels it is time for a range war he needs to be front and center. And it is with the court system NOT a bunch of cowboys trying to make some day money to support their families!
karen No one (yet ) has provided information in regards to how and who will profit by the sale of Cliven Bundy's confiscated cattle. There is question and reason to believe that the 'contract cowboys' very well may share in these proceeds beyond day wages. Stolen Property laws obviously do not apply when it comes to The Feds.
So you are just making it up as you go. Cool!
karen | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | 3canstorun - 2014-04-10 2:49 PM
Stitch4k9 - 2014-04-10 3:40 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 2:36 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
I believe there is more to the rest of the story.
Bscanchaser, is your neighbor part of Law Enforcement under orders to conficate these cattle? Or is He one of the Contract Cowboys who would/will divide up the proceeds of the sale(s) of these nonbrand approved conficated cattle?
Your answer (if there is one ) will be telling. Do you have ANY proof that is what will happen? Or are you making this up as you go?
karen
Kristen Cannon, a spokesman of the BLM said this (and sorry it is copy and paste from a news article ) - The bureau last week announced the area would be closed through May 12 while contractors conduct the roundup using helicopters, vehicles and temporary pens. Cannon said the agency paid the contractors $966,000.
Close to $1 Million. That is a lot of Cash to divvy up. | |
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Holy Fruit Loops!
Posts: 1708
    Location: Colorado | bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 2:51 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 2:25 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
In my original response I told bscanchaser I hoped she or he and theirs liked being a subject. Turns out I was closer than I thought! ETA Hail to The Feds! As Me and Mine: We like Our Freedom! And don't need the Feds! LOL- I guess the rest of the story is that he is LSD, knows the Bundy family well from growing up near them but isn't going to quit his paying job to support the cause because he is the only source of income. I don't really know these people because I'm not Mormon and like wine- I just happened to ask how she was when I was doing some fence work yesterday and she was walking by our place. Btw- her husband works for the US forest service... Usually manned the cleanup/prison crews so I'm sure he's a spotter down there. Wait- you're going to have to educate me- I thought the "right" side represented the people that actually worked to afford to pay for what they have and dont expect free services. He seems to be more to the left in my opinion as he comes off as a welfare rancher that is wanting free grazing. BTW- he could have protected his property by removing them himself. Maybe a lawyer on here can chime in but basically the BLM/Clark county did their due diligence by trying to get him to remove his herd for the last 20 years. Since he didn't and seems to have abandoned his cattle- does that truly fall under the definition of theft? Especially since a large number aren't branded- how can he prove he actually owns them? If my memory serves me right, the BLM did give him the option to purchase his back cattle with his brand prior to the auction.
Unless it is in the form of a pay check? Or are the Marines not funded through the"Feds"?
karen | |
| | |
 
| Whiteboy - 2014-04-10 2:43 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done.
Would you sell your soul for a nickel?
Might do it for 4 pennies if it meant I was doing what I felt was right. I don't believe in blatantly breaking the law and will support those that uphold the law. As far as my neighbor- I can't answer that for him- I'm not sure. | |
| | |
 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| Stitch4k9 - 2014-04-10 2:31 PM
musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
Right side?? They are American citizens, hired to do a job! Bundy is the one who called for a Range war and is workin towards getting every goofy milita want a be in the country involved.
Those cowboys who are there moving cattle are not the bad guys and they do not deserve to be shot at or treated like dirt either. Thanks to the Bundy family and their videos Growney Brothers Rodeo Co. is now receiving death threats.
If Bundy feels it is time for a range war he needs to be front and center. And it is with the court system NOT a bunch of cowboys trying to make some day money to support their families!
karen
What is Growney's affiliation with this whole mess? I thought his crew was in Logendale putting on a rodeo? | |
| | |
  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Stitch4k9 - 2014-04-10 3:00 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 2:51 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 2:25 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
In my original response I told bscanchaser I hoped she or he and theirs liked being a subject. Turns out I was closer than I thought! ETA Hail to The Feds! As Me and Mine: We like Our Freedom! And don't need the Feds! LOL- I guess the rest of the story is that he is LSD, knows the Bundy family well from growing up near them but isn't going to quit his paying job to support the cause because he is the only source of income. I don't really know these people because I'm not Mormon and like wine- I just happened to ask how she was when I was doing some fence work yesterday and she was walking by our place. Btw- her husband works for the US forest service... Usually manned the cleanup/prison crews so I'm sure he's a spotter down there. Wait- you're going to have to educate me- I thought the "right" side represented the people that actually worked to afford to pay for what they have and dont expect free services. He seems to be more to the left in my opinion as he comes off as a welfare rancher that is wanting free grazing. BTW- he could have protected his property by removing them himself. Maybe a lawyer on here can chime in but basically the BLM/Clark county did their due diligence by trying to get him to remove his herd for the last 20 years. Since he didn't and seems to have abandoned his cattle- does that truly fall under the definition of theft? Especially since a large number aren't branded- how can he prove he actually owns them? If my memory serves me right, the BLM did give him the option to purchase his back cattle with his brand prior to the auction.
Unless it is in the form of a pay check? Or are the Marines not funded through the"Feds"?
karen
The Marines also swore an Oath to Defend The Constitution from ALL Enemies Foreign and DOMESTIC! As LEOs are also required to do. | |
| | |
 Expert
Posts: 1857
      
| Stitch4k9 - 2014-04-10 3:00 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 2:51 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 2:25 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
In my original response I told bscanchaser I hoped she or he and theirs liked being a subject. Turns out I was closer than I thought! ETA Hail to The Feds! As Me and Mine: We like Our Freedom! And don't need the Feds! LOL- I guess the rest of the story is that he is LSD, knows the Bundy family well from growing up near them but isn't going to quit his paying job to support the cause because he is the only source of income. I don't really know these people because I'm not Mormon and like wine- I just happened to ask how she was when I was doing some fence work yesterday and she was walking by our place. Btw- her husband works for the US forest service... Usually manned the cleanup/prison crews so I'm sure he's a spotter down there. Wait- you're going to have to educate me- I thought the "right" side represented the people that actually worked to afford to pay for what they have and dont expect free services. He seems to be more to the left in my opinion as he comes off as a welfare rancher that is wanting free grazing. BTW- he could have protected his property by removing them himself. Maybe a lawyer on here can chime in but basically the BLM/Clark county did their due diligence by trying to get him to remove his herd for the last 20 years. Since he didn't and seems to have abandoned his cattle- does that truly fall under the definition of theft? Especially since a large number aren't branded- how can he prove he actually owns them? If my memory serves me right, the BLM did give him the option to purchase his back cattle with his brand prior to the auction.
Unless it is in the form of a pay check? Or are the Marines not funded through the"Feds"?
karen
We, as taxpayers, pay for all government expenses, including the military in exchange for services and security. so no Karen, the marines are not funded by the feds, they are funded by the people. | |
| | |
  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 3:02 PM
Whiteboy - 2014-04-10 2:43 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 1:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done.
Would you sell your soul for a nickel?
Might do it for 4 pennies if it meant I was doing what I felt was right. I don't believe in blatantly breaking the law and will support those that uphold the law. As far as my neighbor- I can't answer that for him- I'm not sure.
Won't break the Law? What about breaking The Constitution? Because there exists many 'laws' that are unConstitutional. Theft is illegal. Theft by Government is illegal, do you support that? | |
| | |
 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! |
In my original response I told bscanchaser I hoped she or he and theirs liked being a subject. Turns out I was closer than I thought! ETA Hail to The Feds! As Me and Mine: We like Our Freedom! And don't need the Feds! LOL- I guess the rest of the story is that he is LSD, knows the Bundy family well from growing up near them but isn't going to quit his paying job to support the cause because he is the only source of income. I don't really know these people because I'm not Mormon and like wine- I just happened to ask how she was when I was doing some fence work yesterday and she was walking by our place. Btw- her husband works for the US forest service... Usually manned the cleanup/prison crews so I'm sure he's a spotter down there. Wait- you're going to have to educate me- I thought the "right" side represented the people that actually worked to afford to pay for what they have and dont expect free services. He seems to be more to the left in my opinion as he comes off as a welfare rancher that is wanting free grazing. BTW- he could have protected his property by removing them himself. Maybe a lawyer on here can chime in but basically the BLM/Clark county did their due diligence by trying to get him to remove his herd for the last 20 years. Since he didn't and seems to have abandoned his cattle- does that truly fall under the definition of theft? Especially since a large number aren't branded- how can he prove he actually owns them? If my memory serves me right, the BLM did give him the option to purchase his back cattle with his brand prior to the auction.
Unless it is in the form of a pay check? Or are the Marines not funded through the"Feds"?
karen
Come on...we all know the Armed Forces are there to protect our borders which is the ENTIRE purose of the 'federal government'. Their role in our lives should be nothing more than that...protect our borders so we may govern ourselves within. | |
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      Location: The Saudia Arabia of Wind Energy, Western Oklahoma | cyount2009 - 2014-04-10 3:02 PM Stitch4k9 - 2014-04-10 2:31 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
Right side?? They are American citizens, hired to do a job! Bundy is the one who called for a Range war and is workin towards getting every goofy milita want a be in the country involved.
Those cowboys who are there moving cattle are not the bad guys and they do not deserve to be shot at or treated like dirt either.
Thanks to the Bundy family and their videos Growney Brothers Rodeo Co. is now receiving death threats.
If Bundy feels it is time for a range war he needs to be front and center. And it is with the court system NOT a bunch of cowboys trying to make some day money to support their families!
karen What is Growney's affiliation with this whole mess? I thought his crew was in Logendale putting on a rodeo?
Isn't Logandale in Clark County? | |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| ksjackofalltrades - 2014-04-10 3:09 PM cyount2009 - 2014-04-10 3:02 PM Stitch4k9 - 2014-04-10 2:31 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 2:12 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 12:56 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:47 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-10 12:44 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:40 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-10 9:54 AM
So I totally expect to get flamed (zipping up Flame suit) but as a Nevadan and knowing/reading about this story, I totally disagree with the Bundy’s. He never owned the land(with title), he hasn’t paid his grazing right fees in 21 years, he failed to respond to multiple requests from the BLM for him to remove his cattle, he lost 2 federal court case’s and was issued court orders to remove his cattle-in which he didn’t do and is throwing a fit that they are removing them for him.
Most ranchers in Nevada have been here since the 1800’s and are multi-generational, they have title to the land they own and then they pay AUM rent to run cattle on BLM land-the same land that they originally started grazing on. All have had AUM number decreased due to BLM management-whether the reason was for overgrazing, fires or environmental…I’m sure they weren’t happy with the reductions but they all complied. Basically in my opinion, Bundy wants something for free- when all the rest are paying for the same exact thing. Why is he entitled to graze for free and what makes him entitled to be above the rest of the people who actually pay their fees and take care of their responsibilities? Bundy’s background story is no different than any other ranching family I know-except all the others pay their dues and take care of business. This is nothing but a black eye for the good ranchers who are diligent with managing their stock and grazing grounds. Bundy’s are no different than the Dann Sisters, Crutcher’s or Caseys-who also found out they weren’t entitled to graze illegally and subsequently lost their herds to BLM round-ups because they also refused to remove them. I know most people would rather not have the BLM…but what makes this type of anti-government behavior stop here? My grandparents have lived on the same ranch they owned since the early 1900’s- are they now entitled to quit paying property taxes? Can they just fire the county government because they choose not to recognize them as the authority of the land?
I guess for me, this isn’t any different than someone who lives off tax payers, quits paying their mortgage, fails to respond to eviction notices and then is mad that the sheriff comes to remove them and the bank takes all the possessions in the home to pay for the back owed debt… I don’t see too many people waging war in these scenarios- basically would call it life and not taking care of responsibilities to ensure they kept their house. If you refuse to pay for your house, you don’t just miraculously get it for free-you get to move and figure something else out…
agreed Do the two of you agree with the heavy handed ways being employed by the Feds in this scenario? the removal of the cattle was not heavy handed....in fact it should have been done years ago.....everything else....well....i said it in my previous post so you should already no the answer to the question Considering my neighbors husband is down there potentially risking his life to remove cattle that shouldn't be there- yes, I agree with them being armed when op position has threatened violence. He has 3 young children that would be fatherless if something were to happen. I support city, county and state law enforcement to carry similar weapons when they are enforcing the law- why would I think the federal level shouldn't have the same protections? Several people in my little town have been assigned to this operation- all have lives that have been disrupted by a person who thinks he is above the law and all have families and friends to return to when the job is done. Aha! NOW we know the 'rest of the story'! All I can say is that for those foolish enough to wear the wrong uniform...well, sorry bout' their luck. Maybe they should get on the 'right' side.
And yes, I mean that more than you can ever know.
Why aren't the law enforcement officials who actually have authority & jurisdiction on the scene? It's NOT their option to just hand it over to the federal goons...they take an oath to protect our property, freedom & liberty. Nobody forced them into that job...they better be a patriot or get the he$$ outta the way.
I offer absolutely no sympathy for those standing in the way of our freedoms or those who are helping to steal those cattle!
America better wake the heck up.
Right side?? They are American citizens, hired to do a job! Bundy is the one who called for a Range war and is workin towards getting every goofy milita want a be in the country involved.
Those cowboys who are there moving cattle are not the bad guys and they do not deserve to be shot at or treated like dirt either.
Thanks to the Bundy family and their videos Growney Brothers Rodeo Co. is now receiving death threats.
If Bundy feels it is time for a range war he needs to be front and center. And it is with the court system NOT a bunch of cowboys trying to make some day money to support their families!
karen What is Growney's affiliation with this whole mess? I thought his crew was in Logendale putting on a rodeo? Isn't Logandale in Clark County?
About an hour from the "fight". | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Stitk9, you know what? I would gladly go w/o a paycheck to support The Constitution! Cause w/o the Constitution I wouldn't entitled to a paycheck anyway! Cause the Feds would 'allot' the fruits of my labor(s) to someone else who has done as much and call 'it' equality! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Love the Clark County Rodeo! Here's a good 'capture' of yesterday's brutality:
http://instagram.com/p/mmChBWjOkK/# | |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
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The fair and rodeo is one of the best around! | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 292
     Location: Northeast Nebraska | This guy is the LAST rancher in this county. This isn't about grazing fees, or "endangered" tortoises. It's about tyranny, control of land, people, food and water. He has been fighting for decades, until a corrupt FEDERAL judge let loose the hounds of hell. I hope plenty of jack booted, brown shirted blood is shed. And I have NO sympathy for treasonous "cowboys" willing to sell their souls to the devil. If you work for Satan, expect to get in the crossfire.
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | GoGaited - 2014-04-10 3:32 PM
This guy is the LAST rancher in this county. This isn't about grazing fees, or "endangered" tortoises. It's about tyranny, control of land, people, food and water. He has been fighting for decades, until a corrupt FEDERAL judge let loose the hounds of hell. I hope plenty of jack booted, brown shirted blood is shed. And I have NO sympathy for treasonous "cowboys" willing to sell their souls to the devil. If you work for Satan, expect to get in the crossfire.
And more information is revealed. | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where |
WOW!!!
That's awful. This needs to be on every news feed there is, that guy needs charged. | |
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 I'm not opinionated
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | FlyingJT - 2014-04-10 3:46 PM https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152076448588506&set=vb.68...
urban vs rural expansion is a huge problem...issue...whatever you want to call it.....
still doesn't change my mind on the guys who would see every last tortoise (not turtle), wolf, mountain lion, bobcat, snake, whatever, exterminated so they could have a bunch of cows on cheap govt land......of course, plenty of purely private guys are no different.......the land should be cleared except for cows and grass or crops.....unless it's some animal they can make money off of....elk, moose, ducks, pheasants.....obviously those are the only good animals.... | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 3:19 PM FlyingJT - 2014-04-10 3:46 PM https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152076448588506&set=vb.68... urban vs rural expansion is a huge problem...issue...whatever you want to call it.....
still doesn't change my mind on the guys who would see every last tortoise (not turtle), wolf, mountain lion, bobcat, snake, whatever, exterminated so they could have a bunch of cows on cheap govt land......of course, plenty of purely private guys are no different.......the land should be cleared except for cows and grass or crops.....unless it's some animal they can make money off of....elk, moose, ducks, pheasants.....obviously those are the only good animals....
How do you read that into any of this? Fyi...the so-called endangered species issues are nothing more than a ruse...google Doyel Shamely IF you want to get educated on our public lands & the many ways we've been duped. Please. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | musikmaker - 2014-04-10 4:33 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 3:19 PM FlyingJT - 2014-04-10 3:46 PM https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152076448588506&set=vb.68... urban vs rural expansion is a huge problem...issue...whatever you want to call it.....
still doesn't change my mind on the guys who would see every last tortoise (not turtle), wolf, mountain lion, bobcat, snake, whatever, exterminated so they could have a bunch of cows on cheap govt land......of course, plenty of purely private guys are no different.......the land should be cleared except for cows and grass or crops.....unless it's some animal they can make money off of....elk, moose, ducks, pheasants.....obviously those are the only good animals.... How do you read that into any of this? Fyi...the so-called endangered species issues are nothing more than a ruse...google Doyel Shamely IF you want to get educated on our public lands & the many ways we've been duped. Please. not to say that there aren't plenty of ways these issues have been used to try to dupe us but if you really think that endangered species are nothing more than a ruse, then you really have been duped and somehow can ignore history...
and i didn't have to read that into it.....i listened to what he saidEdited by dhdqhllc 2014-04-10 4:38 PM
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| Whiteboy - 2014-04-10 1:33 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:46 PM i watched his interview last night......he is getting what he deserves.........which is a completely separate issue from federal 'ownership' of all the acres.....which is continually increasing........nor is it part of the issue involved with beieng able to video what is taking place.......which is not just a problem with federal enforcers, it is every level of govt enforcement......
but, back to Bundy......run the sucker off..... And then once he is gone, move onto each national park and monument and run off the cattlemen, then close the roads, then run off the horseback riders. After all it should be the granola eating, subaru driving hippies that should have uninterupted access.
Oh wait...that is already happening. (Escalante Grand Staircase National Monument)
As we talk about this issue I received an email from a friend requesting comments on rule changes in the Bryce Canyon National Park. This park is an hour from my house. I basicly grew up ridding my horses in the park. Now they want to restrict private citizens form riding in the park and make it incredibly difficult for guide companys to access the park as well. Here is the email. Feel free to send in a comment if you are willing.
 Back County Horsemen of America Working to keep trails open on public lands. Back Country Horsemen of America E-Blast April 7, 2014 Action Alert: Deadline for Comments: May 24, 2014 (midnight Mountain time zone) Proposed Rule Change for Private Horse Use –Bryce Canyon National Park Dear BCHA members, Bryce Canyon National Park has proposed changes for users of privately-owned stock on designated horse trails within the park. The changes are intended to ensure the safety of all visitors and to protect park resources. The park initiated a public comment period on the proposed changes for 30 days beginning March 26, 2014. The changes proposed by Bryce Canyon National Park include a requirement that all horseback riding must be coordinated with the park’s authorized trail-ride concessioner, prior to entering the park. Of concern, however, is that private stock users also would be required to the pay a substantial fee to the park’s concessioner to guide and accompany all privately-owned stock riding groups for the duration of their trip over any portion of the eight miles of park trails available for stock use. The fee that would be charged by the concessioner for this service would be based on the number of riders, up to eight riders per guide. The proposed fee schedule would range from $100 for the first rider to $345 for eight riders. For more information, view the Park’s website here: http://www.nps.gov/brca/parknews/proposed-rule-change-for-private-horse-use.htm If approved, the proposed changes would represent a new and disturbing precedent among National Parks to require all private stock users to hire a commercial guide. We are not aware of any National Park where such a requirement currently exists. Nor does BCHA want to see this precedent established at Bryce Canyon. In order to adequately resolve concerns regarding visitor safety, we believe that alternative measures can be taken that emphasize rider education, resource protection, and the role of law enforcement in dealing with rogue riders who choose to violate the rules. The public is encouraged to submit comments by April 24, 2014, via email to the following address: brca_information@nps.gov, or mail your comments to: Program Analyst, Bryce Canyon National Park, P.O. Box 640201, Bryce, Utah 84764 BCHA’s Advisor for Wilderness & Recreation is coordinating the public comment effort with BCH Utah’s Officer for Public Lands. They recommend you consider including some or all of the following talking points in your comments to Bryce Canyon National Park. Remember, “Cool heads prevail.” It’s important to be courteous, to make constructive recommendations that address the safety problem and, importantly, to demonstrate your passion and knowledge by adding your personal story among these talking points: · I am writing about the Proposed Rule Change for Private Horse Use. · As a private user of recreational stock, I recognize the importance of minimizing safety hazards and resource damage on our public lands. · I appreciate the Park Superintendent’s announcement of a 30-day comment period on the matter. By doing so, he recognized the high level of public interest and desire of visitors who use their horses and mules to enjoy the beauty and splendor of Bryce Canyon and other National Parks. · I understand that portions of the trails at Bryce Canyon are unusually narrow and steep. This is why horse trails at the park are designated “one-way,” in order to minimize the potential for parties on horseback to pass each other along segments of trail where it is dangerous to do so. · I understand that additional measures are needed to avoid private and commercially-guided parties from converging at those sections of trail where there is high safety risk. · I do not, however, support the park’s current proposal that all private stock parties be required to hire the services of a commercial guide. · Instead, I understand the Park Superintendent is open to constructive comments that would help alleviate the safety situation and ensure that riders stay on designated trails and not damage park resources. · In addition to the currently required 48-hour advance check-in by private stock users, I recommend the park adopt an alternative that would restrict the time(s) of day a private party be allowed to traverse sections of trail where there is high safety risk, in order to allow commercially-guided trips safe passage. · I understand the need to minimize damage to off-trail soils and cultural resources. · I recommend that private stock parties be required to check in--prior to riding in the park--both to coordinate departure/itinerary logistics regarding rider safety and to receive a briefing from either park or commercial outfitter personnel. The briefing could be used to convey regulations pertaining to use of park trails, including prohibitions on off-trail travel, cutting of switchbacks and riding parallel or side-by-side on designated trails where the trail tread is narrow. · I do not object to paying a modest fee to cover agency and/or commercial outfitter costs associated with the recommended pre-departure briefing for private stock parties. · I encourage the Park Service to explore methods by which NPS law enforcement personnel can more readily identify and make contact with stock users who do not follow the rules. These methods should emphasize streamlined communication with park volunteers and the stock concession operator to report violations in a timely manner. · I understand that Back Country Horsemen of Utah (BCHU) has volunteered to assist the Park Service in developing a curriculum of the pre-trip training for private stock users. They have several Master Trainers versed in Leave No Trace techniques, and the Park Service would benefit from cultivating closer relations with BCHU and enlisting their assistance. · I appreciate this opportunity to provide public comment. · Thank you for your effort to make the unique trail experience offered at Bryce Canyon safe and affordable for everyone. I look forward to my next visit to Bryce Canyon National Park. BCHA: Working to insure that public lands remain open to recreational stock use. Forgot to renew your membership? Donate to BCHA now! This e-blast is not meant to take the place of our hard copy newsletter but to inform and communicate on issues in a timelier manner. This does not take away from the roll of your National Directors on issues of a more BCHA nature that are the responsibility of your elected National Directors. Please feel free to pass this newsletter on to members and non-members who might not have email. Don’t forget to Like us on Facebook.com at: http://www.facebook.com/#!/bcha.org. We have had to date 2,260 likes on our Facebook page. It is a good place to post your chapter, affiliates and at-large members to post updates and information on accomplishments and upcoming events and work days. About Back Country Horsemen of America BCHA is a non-profit corporation made up of state organizations, affiliates, and at large members. Their efforts have brought about positive changes in regards to the use of horses and stock in the wilderness and public lands. If you want to know more about Back Country Horsemen of America or become a member, visit our website: www.backcountryhorse.com, call 888-893-5161, or write PO Box 1367, Graham, WA 98338-1367. The future of horse use on public lands is in our hands!
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 3:37 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 4:33 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 3:19 PM FlyingJT - 2014-04-10 3:46 PM https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152076448588506&set=vb.68... urban vs rural expansion is a huge problem...issue...whatever you want to call it.....
still doesn't change my mind on the guys who would see every last tortoise (not turtle), wolf, mountain lion, bobcat, snake, whatever, exterminated so they could have a bunch of cows on cheap govt land......of course, plenty of purely private guys are no different.......the land should be cleared except for cows and grass or crops.....unless it's some animal they can make money off of....elk, moose, ducks, pheasants.....obviously those are the only good animals.... How do you read that into any of this?
Fyi...the so-called endangered species issues are nothing more than a ruse...google Doyel Shamely IF you want to get educated on our public lands & the many ways we've been duped. Please.
not to say that there aren't plenty of ways these issues have been used to try to dupe us but if you really think that endangered species are nothing more than a ruse, then you really have been duped and somehow can ignore history...
and i didn't have to read that into it.....i listened to what he said
He said the tortoise & the cattle got along just fine. They both eat the same thing but in no way was the range ever in jeopardy over grazing. I've been duped before, I'm sure...just don't think the real concern of the environmentalists is for the animal. Years ago my husband was the 'bad guy', he's the one who did all the controversial uranium exploration at the Grand Canyon, suffice it to say we have some experience with the types who receive monies to 'protest'...most of them at that time didn't even know what they were protesting, just new it was a party...and they got money to show up! Idk if they were paid extra to damage equipment. Wouldn't surprise me coming from those nice, animal loving souls. Uh-huh. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | musikmaker - 2014-04-10 5:38 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 3:37 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 4:33 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 3:19 PM FlyingJT - 2014-04-10 3:46 PM https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152076448588506&set=vb.68... urban vs rural expansion is a huge problem...issue...whatever you want to call it.....
still doesn't change my mind on the guys who would see every last tortoise (not turtle), wolf, mountain lion, bobcat, snake, whatever, exterminated so they could have a bunch of cows on cheap govt land......of course, plenty of purely private guys are no different.......the land should be cleared except for cows and grass or crops.....unless it's some animal they can make money off of....elk, moose, ducks, pheasants.....obviously those are the only good animals.... How do you read that into any of this?
Fyi...the so-called endangered species issues are nothing more than a ruse...google Doyel Shamely IF you want to get educated on our public lands & the many ways we've been duped. Please.
not to say that there aren't plenty of ways these issues have been used to try to dupe us but if you really think that endangered species are nothing more than a ruse, then you really have been duped and somehow can ignore history...
and i didn't have to read that into it.....i listened to what he said He said the tortoise & the cattle got along just fine. They both eat the same thing but in no way was the range ever in jeopardy over grazing.
I've been duped before, I'm sure...just don't think the real concern of the environmentalists is for the animal.
Years ago my husband was the 'bad guy', he's the one who did all the controversial uranium exploration at the Grand Canyon, suffice it to say we have some experience with the types who receive monies to 'protest'...most of them at that time didn't even know what they were protesting, just new it was a party...and they got money to show up! Idk if they were paid extra to damage equipment. Wouldn't surprise me coming from those nice, animal loving souls. Uh-huh.
yes....and at times he said turtle.....they are not the same.......so i would bet my salary he doesn't know anything about the desert tortoise......or that their is a difference between a tortoise and a turtle....
and along that line, he obviously isn't to interested in the grass issue in regards to the tortoise......there does need to be a balance......and a decent plan between interests isn't a bad thing.....but obviously that opinion paints us as on the side of a govt takeover, which everyone on here already knows where i stand......but hey, musikmaker (and i still prefer the sexy pirate), if you're ranch was looking to expand and all the surrounding land for 30 miles was owned by a guy that grazed it to the dirt and ruined it for the next 50 years or more (and in desert country, that's no joke) (and happens)......would you be support that ranchers right to destroy that land, maybe for 100 years, just because it was private land and the owners right......????? now you've got no where to grow.....now make that rancher a renter....(and i realize this federal land control issue is a big one and one i would like to see decrease)....but i can't imagine that if you were the landlord, that you would let a renter do this to your land without kicking them off long before too much damage was done....wouldn't you???? well, public land isn't just managed for the benefit of the cattlemen......hhell, they get enough of a subsidy with the cheap grazing rights they have and can retain....now it's a huge problem that they still have to work with a govt that goes from one extreme to the other and continually whittles away rights......but just because something involves the environment, doesn't mean it's a ruse.... but hey.....let ignore good science unless it supports our side.... | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | They just said he was the last rancher left in that county and that around 50 other ranchers that were his neighbors have been put out of business by the Federal Government. It looks like we might have another Ruby Ridge like stand off. They say there are militants on the way to help defend the rancher. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 5:00 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 5:38 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 3:37 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-10 4:33 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 3:19 PM FlyingJT - 2014-04-10 3:46 PM https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152076448588506&set=vb.68... urban vs rural expansion is a huge problem...issue...whatever you want to call it.....
still doesn't change my mind on the guys who would see every last tortoise (not turtle), wolf, mountain lion, bobcat, snake, whatever, exterminated so they could have a bunch of cows on cheap govt land......of course, plenty of purely private guys are no different.......the land should be cleared except for cows and grass or crops.....unless it's some animal they can make money off of....elk, moose, ducks, pheasants.....obviously those are the only good animals.... How do you read that into any of this?
Fyi...the so-called endangered species issues are nothing more than a ruse...google Doyel Shamely IF you want to get educated on our public lands & the many ways we've been duped. Please.
not to say that there aren't plenty of ways these issues have been used to try to dupe us but if you really think that endangered species are nothing more than a ruse, then you really have been duped and somehow can ignore history...
and i didn't have to read that into it.....i listened to what he said He said the tortoise & the cattle got along just fine. They both eat the same thing but in no way was the range ever in jeopardy over grazing.
I've been duped before, I'm sure...just don't think the real concern of the environmentalists is for the animal.
Years ago my husband was the 'bad guy', he's the one who did all the controversial uranium exploration at the Grand Canyon, suffice it to say we have some experience with the types who receive monies to 'protest'...most of them at that time didn't even know what they were protesting, just new it was a party...and they got money to show up! Idk if they were paid extra to damage equipment. Wouldn't surprise me coming from those nice, animal loving souls. Uh-huh.
yes....and at times he said turtle.....they are not the same.......so i would bet my salary he doesn't know anything about the desert tortoise......or that their is a difference between a tortoise and a turtle....
and along that line, he obviously isn't to interested in the grass issue in regards to the tortoise......there does need to be a balance......and a decent plan between interests isn't a bad thing.....but obviously that opinion paints us as on the side of a govt takeover, which everyone on here already knows where i stand......but hey, musikmaker (and i still prefer the sexy pirate), if you're ranch was looking to expand and all the surrounding land for 30 miles was owned by a guy that grazed it to the dirt and ruined it for the next 50 years or more (and in desert country, that's no joke) (and happens)......would you be support that ranchers right to destroy that land, maybe for 100 years, just because it was private land and the owners right......????? now you've got no where to grow.....now make that rancher a renter....(and i realize this federal land control issue is a big one and one i would like to see decrease)....but i can't imagine that if you were the landlord, that you would let a renter do this to your land without kicking them off long before too much damage was done....wouldn't you???? well, public land isn't just managed for the benefit of the cattlemen......hhell, they get enough of a subsidy with the cheap grazing rights they have and can retain....now it's a huge problem that they still have to work with a govt that goes from one extreme to the other and continually whittles away rights......but just because something involves the environment, doesn't mean it's a ruse....
but hey.....let ignore good science unless it supports our side....
Ok, I'll play (do keep in mind that I'm still a pirate at heart). I don'tknow how old Mr. Bundy is, but, I do know I'd never hear the word 'tortoise' out of any of the oldtimers mouths that I know...just cuz. Regardless. why are they now going to destroy them? It wasn't too long ago that I saw a news article about the 'homing' of said tortoise due to a lack of water in the area...something something...I don't recall exactly, just that they would be trying to find homes for some & euthanizing the rest. So...that is no longer a...um...'means' of removing the cattle. I've actually witnessed a few 'ranchers' who have no clue how to read the range & no interest in learning...burns me up as I agree that it only creates the perfect excuse to close said range...but, why would the managers allow it get so bad unless they saw an opportunity? As to the private owner...it's none of my business what he/she does with their land. I live in the desert of Utah! Red Rock Country...surrounded on all sides by 'managed' land of one sort or another...Navajo Reservation to the south & BLM everywhere else. I don't see any of it working. If you take a journey back to the days when men & women were willing to brave this rough a$$ country just to try their hand at living a free life...when they left everything that they knew, all that was familiar and came out here to flee the oppression of their home country's gov't...then maybe you'd see what the fight is really about. We have nowhere else to go. We must make it work here & most of us have enjoyed the opportunity to succeed or parrish...whatever luck & hard work allowed...and we like it that way. We're not anserable to nobody but ourselves. The 'public land' is just there. Mostly because it can't sustain much life...there's no water. It was considered 'wasteland'...still is. Just north of Flagstaff is some of the prettiest country with more feed than you can imagine...a lot of it going to waste it seems, because there's no water for the livestock...you can't drill deep enough to hit it.
Anyhow...I've yet to hear of Bundy being accused of bad range management? From what I can gather it's about water & growth. Also...about that 'good science' stuff...they say the earth is getting bigger! The ice burgs are melting & changing the diameter of the earth! Imagine! Lol... | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Whiteboy - 2014-04-10 4:19 PM Whiteboy - 2014-04-10 1:33 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-10 12:46 PM i watched his interview last night......he is getting what he deserves.........which is a completely separate issue from federal 'ownership' of all the acres.....which is continually increasing........nor is it part of the issue involved with beieng able to video what is taking place.......which is not just a problem with federal enforcers, it is every level of govt enforcement......
but, back to Bundy......run the sucker off..... And then once he is gone, move onto each national park and monument and run off the cattlemen, then close the roads, then run off the horseback riders. After all it should be the granola eating, subaru driving hippies that should have uninterupted access.
Oh wait...that is already happening. (Escalante Grand Staircase National Monument)
As we talk about this issue I received an email from a friend requesting comments on rule changes in the Bryce Canyon National Park. This park is an hour from my house. I basicly grew up ridding my horses in the park. Now they want to restrict private citizens form riding in the park and make it incredibly difficult for guide companys to access the park as well. Here is the email. Feel free to send in a comment if you are willing.
Back County Horsemen of America
Working to keep trails open on public lands.
Back Country Horsemen of America E-Blast
April 7, 2014
Action Alert: Deadline for Comments: May 24, 2014 (midnight Mountain time zone)
Proposed Rule Change for Private Horse Use –Bryce Canyon National Park
Dear BCHA members,
Bryce Canyon National Park has proposed changes for users of privately-owned stock on designated horse trails within the park. The changes are intended to ensure the safety of all visitors and to protect park resources. The park initiated a public comment period on the proposed changes for 30 days beginning March 26, 2014.
The changes proposed by Bryce Canyon National Park include a requirement that all horseback riding must be coordinated with the park’s authorized trail-ride concessioner, prior to entering the park. Of concern, however, is that private stock users also would be required to the pay a substantial fee to the park’s concessioner to guide and accompany all privately-owned stock riding groups for the duration of their trip over any portion of the eight miles of park trails available for stock use.
The fee that would be charged by the concessioner for this service would be based on the number of riders, up to eight riders per guide. The proposed fee schedule would range from $100 for the first rider to $345 for eight riders.
For more information, view the Park’s website here:
http://www.nps.gov/brca/parknews/proposed-rule-change-for-private-horse-use.htm
If approved, the proposed changes would represent a new and disturbing precedent among National Parks to require all private stock users to hire a commercial guide. We are not aware of any National Park where such a requirement currently exists. Nor does BCHA want to see this precedent established at Bryce Canyon. In order to adequately resolve concerns regarding visitor safety, we believe that alternative measures can be taken that emphasize rider education, resource protection, and the role of law enforcement in dealing with rogue riders who choose to violate the rules.
The public is encouraged to submit comments by April 24, 2014, via email to the following address: brca_information@nps.gov, or mail your comments to: Program Analyst, Bryce Canyon National Park, P.O. Box 640201, Bryce, Utah 84764
BCHA’s Advisor for Wilderness & Recreation is coordinating the public comment effort with BCH Utah’s Officer for Public Lands. They recommend you consider including some or all of the following talking points in your comments to Bryce Canyon National Park.
Remember, “Cool heads prevail.” It’s important to be courteous, to make constructive recommendations that address the safety problem and, importantly, to demonstrate your passion and knowledge by adding your personal story among these talking points:
· I am writing about the Proposed Rule Change for Private Horse Use.
· As a private user of recreational stock, I recognize the importance of minimizing safety hazards and resource damage on our public lands.
· I appreciate the Park Superintendent’s announcement of a 30-day comment period on the matter. By doing so, he recognized the high level of public interest and desire of visitors who use their horses and mules to enjoy the beauty and splendor of Bryce Canyon and other National Parks.
· I understand that portions of the trails at Bryce Canyon are unusually narrow and steep. This is why horse trails at the park are designated “one-way,” in order to minimize the potential for parties on horseback to pass each other along segments of trail where it is dangerous to do so.
· I understand that additional measures are needed to avoid private and commercially-guided parties from converging at those sections of trail where there is high safety risk.
· I do not, however, support the park’s current proposal that all private stock parties be required to hire the services of a commercial guide.
· Instead, I understand the Park Superintendent is open to constructive comments that would help alleviate the safety situation and ensure that riders stay on designated trails and not damage park resources.
· In addition to the currently required 48-hour advance check-in by private stock users, I recommend the park adopt an alternative that would restrict the time (s ) of day a private party be allowed to traverse sections of trail where there is high safety risk, in order to allow commercially-guided trips safe passage.
· I understand the need to minimize damage to off-trail soils and cultural resources.
· I recommend that private stock parties be required to check in--prior to riding in the park--both to coordinate departure/itinerary logistics regarding rider safety and to receive a briefing from either park or commercial outfitter personnel. The briefing could be used to convey regulations pertaining to use of park trails, including prohibitions on off-trail travel, cutting of switchbacks and riding parallel or side-by-side on designated trails where the trail tread is narrow.
· I do not object to paying a modest fee to cover agency and/or commercial outfitter costs associated with the recommended pre-departure briefing for private stock parties.
· I encourage the Park Service to explore methods by which NPS law enforcement personnel can more readily identify and make contact with stock users who do not follow the rules. These methods should emphasize streamlined communication with park volunteers and the stock concession operator to report violations in a timely manner.
· I understand that Back Country Horsemen of Utah (BCHU ) has volunteered to assist the Park Service in developing a curriculum of the pre-trip training for private stock users. They have several Master Trainers versed in Leave No Trace techniques, and the Park Service would benefit from cultivating closer relations with BCHU and enlisting their assistance.
· I appreciate this opportunity to provide public comment.
· Thank you for your effort to make the unique trail experience offered at Bryce Canyon safe and affordable for everyone. I look forward to my next visit to Bryce Canyon National Park.
BCHA: Working to insure that public lands remain open to recreational stock use.
Forgot to renew your membership? Donate to BCHA now!
This e-blast is not meant to take the place of our hard copy newsletter but to inform and communicate on issues in a timelier manner. This does not take away from the roll of your National Directors on issues of a more BCHA nature that are the responsibility of your elected National Directors. Please feel free to pass this newsletter on to members and non-members who might not have email.
Don’t forget to Like us on Facebook.com at: http://www.facebook.com/#!/bcha.org. We have had to date 2,260 likes on our Facebook page. It is a good place to post your chapter, affiliates and at-large members to post updates and information on accomplishments and upcoming events and work days.
About Back Country Horsemen of America
BCHA is a non-profit corporation made up of state organizations, affiliates, and at large members. Their efforts have brought about positive changes in regards to the use of horses and stock in the wilderness and public lands.
If you want to know more about Back Country Horsemen of America or become a member, visit our website: www.backcountryhorse.com, call 888-893-5161, or write PO Box 1367, Graham, WA 98338-1367. The future of horse use on public lands is in our hands!
Remove me from future E-Blast and Alert Messages
I can't believe nobody else has jumped on this one! A glimpse into the future...if we're dumb enough to allow it...then we deserve it. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | No matter where you think you are on this we all need to consider the real implications. This is just another emotional, heartfelt video from a man who's willing to stand. It's all kinda sad, but, know that all these people are doing everything they can to prevent another Ruby Ridge...a time, a place, a family...who didn't have what we have today...the internet. That blood is on all ours hands...let's be strong & sure that we can fight this fight without bloodshed, without hate, rather, let's get it right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ncLjvoTa0Xw | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
   
| The true American citizens need to arm themselves and set up "road blocks" and get behind the snipers, dont let the feds surround you. Road blocks around the feds road blocks and snipers behind their snipers. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | musikmaker - 2014-04-10 11:15 PM
No matter where you think you are on this we all need to consider the real implications. This is just another emotional, heartfelt video from a man who's willing to stand. It's all kinda sad, but, know that all these people are doing everything they can to prevent another Ruby Ridge...a time, a place, a family...who didn't have what we have today...the internet. That blood is on all ours hands...let's be strong & sure that we can fight this fight without bloodshed, without hate, rather, let's get it right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ncLjvoTa0Xw
This man speaks the TRUTH! | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Itsme - 2014-04-10 11:30 PM The true American citizens need to arm themselves and set up "road blocks" and get behind the snipers, dont let the feds surround you. Road blocks around the feds road blocks and snipers behind their snipers.
Itsme: I am about radical as they come where The Constitution is concerned...........but I am at least halfway sensible when it comes to starting a Shooting Civil War between Americans! The guy in the Youtube Video MM posted has it right! Let The Feds fire the first shot. I really have to wonder if you have ever studied any kind of history whatsoever. Also have you ever experienced the aftermath of a shooting event? Real People with Real Families get hurt and die who leave Loved Ones behind. Did you ever think of that? I am not against a 'Civil War' per se. I am just not particularly interested in being the party or parties who are responible for the opening round.
Edited by foundation horse 2014-04-11 8:40 AM
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
      
| musikmaker - 2014-04-10 11:15 PM
No matter where you think you are on this we all need to consider the real implications. This is just another emotional, heartfelt video from a man who's willing to stand. It's all kinda sad, but, know that all these people are doing everything they can to prevent another Ruby Ridge...a time, a place, a family...who didn't have what we have today...the internet. That blood is on all ours hands...let's be strong & sure that we can fight this fight without bloodshed, without hate, rather, let's get it right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ncLjvoTa0Xw
Thank you for posting that! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Texans...here ya go, you've been targeted, too. I'm (nearly) speechless at this blatent disregard for our Consitution...I want to remind us of where, precisely, the power & control lies: whosoever owns/controls the land. And although the BLM and other agencies that fall under the umbrella of the Dept. of Interior pretend to be part of our gov't...they are not. They do not represent The People! So...when you realize that the current managers of the public lands are not directly answerable to the people you then realize that the land is being stolen from all of us. arrrggghhhh.... http://gopthedailydose.com/2014/04/11/not-just-nevada-blm-land-grabbing-90000-deeded-acres-in-texas-too/ | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | musikmaker - 2014-04-11 9:28 AM Texans...here ya go, you've been targeted, too.
I'm (nearly) speechless at this blatent disregard for our Consitution...I want to remind us of where, precisely, the power & control lies: whosoever owns/controls the land. And although the BLM and other agencies that fall under the umbrella of the Dept. of Interior pretend to be part of our gov't...they are not. They do not represent The People! So...when you realize that the current managers of the public lands are not directly answerable to the people you then realize that the land is being stolen from all of us.
arrrggghhhh....
http://gopthedailydose.com/2014/04/11/not-just-nevada-blm-land-grabbing-90000-deeded-acres-in-texas-too/
where have you been???? you're right...no one pays attention....i posted about this several pages back as a much better example of BLM over reach and a link to a video of a texas rancher that they've already run off and an oklahoma rancher that is worried that if the BLM pulls this, he might lose some of his property to a texas rancher because fo the interpretation..... | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | musikmaker - 2014-04-11 9:28 AM
Texans...here ya go, you've been targeted, too. I'm (nearly) speechless at this blatent disregard for our Consitution...I want to remind us of where, precisely, the power & control lies: whosoever owns/controls the land. And although the BLM and other agencies that fall under the umbrella of the Dept. of Interior pretend to be part of our gov't...they are not. They do not represent The People! So...when you realize that the current managers of the public lands are not directly answerable to the people you then realize that the land is being stolen from all of us. arrrggghhhh.... http://gopthedailydose.com/2014/04/11/not-just-nevada-blm-land-grabbing-90000-deeded-acres-in-texas-too/
And these Ranchers have CLEAR Deeds of Title to their land DHDQLC! Same concept though! The Feds are attempting to ride roughshod over Private Citizen Property Owners! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-11 8:33 AM musikmaker - 2014-04-11 9:28 AM Texans...here ya go, you've been targeted, too.
I'm (nearly) speechless at this blatent disregard for our Consitution...I want to remind us of where, precisely, the power & control lies: whosoever owns/controls the land. And although the BLM and other agencies that fall under the umbrella of the Dept. of Interior pretend to be part of our gov't...they are not. They do not represent The People! So...when you realize that the current managers of the public lands are not directly answerable to the people you then realize that the land is being stolen from all of us.
arrrggghhhh....
http://gopthedailydose.com/2014/04/11/not-just-nevada-blm-land-grabbing-90000-deeded-acres-in-texas-too/
where have you been???? you're right...no one pays attention....i posted about this several pages back as a much better example of BLM over reach and a link to a video of a texas rancher that they've already run off and an oklahoma rancher that is worried that if the BLM pulls this, he might lose some of his property to a texas rancher because fo the interpretation.....
Oops...! I thought I clicked on all the links...hmmm. An aspect of this land grap that's very alarming is the precedence that was set previously... This is the thing with the appointed agencies...they don't take an oath, yet, they make policy! They are law makers. No different than the United Nations taking a 'blanket approach' to the world, these agencies do the same blanket approach over all the states, which makes a joke of States Rights, which makesd citizens powerless. Voiceless. Subjects.
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | musikmaker - 2014-04-11 9:39 AM
dhdqhllc - 2014-04-11 8:33 AM musikmaker - 2014-04-11 9:28 AM Texans...here ya go, you've been targeted, too.
I'm (nearly) speechless at this blatent disregard for our Consitution...I want to remind us of where, precisely, the power & control lies: whosoever owns/controls the land. And although the BLM and other agencies that fall under the umbrella of the Dept. of Interior pretend to be part of our gov't...they are not. They do not represent The People! So...when you realize that the current managers of the public lands are not directly answerable to the people you then realize that the land is being stolen from all of us.
arrrggghhhh....
http://gopthedailydose.com/2014/04/11/not-just-nevada-blm-land-grabbing-90000-deeded-acres-in-texas-too/
where have you been???? you're right...no one pays attention....i posted about this several pages back as a much better example of BLM over reach and a link to a video of a texas rancher that they've already run off and an oklahoma rancher that is worried that if the BLM pulls this, he might lose some of his property to a texas rancher because fo the interpretation.....
Oops...! I thought I clicked on all the links...hmmm. An aspect of this land grap that's very alarming is the precedence that was set previously... This is the thing with the appointed agencies...they don't take an oath, yet, they make policy! They are law makers. No different than the United Nations taking a 'blanket approach' to the world, these agencies do the same blanket approach over all the states, which makes a joke of States Rights, which makesd citizens powerless. Voiceless. Subjects.
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-11 9:33 AM musikmaker - 2014-04-11 9:28 AM Texans...here ya go, you've been targeted, too.
I'm (nearly) speechless at this blatent disregard for our Consitution...I want to remind us of where, precisely, the power & control lies: whosoever owns/controls the land. And although the BLM and other agencies that fall under the umbrella of the Dept. of Interior pretend to be part of our gov't...they are not. They do not represent The People! So...when you realize that the current managers of the public lands are not directly answerable to the people you then realize that the land is being stolen from all of us.
arrrggghhhh....
http://gopthedailydose.com/2014/04/11/not-just-nevada-blm-land-grabbing-90000-deeded-acres-in-texas-too/
where have you been???? you're right...no one pays attention....i posted about this several pages back as a much better example of BLM over reach and a link to a video of a texas rancher that they've already run off and an oklahoma rancher that is worried that if the BLM pulls this, he might lose some of his property to a texas rancher because fo the interpretation.....
But your link wasn't live. It's a PIA to copy and paste on an iThang. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | bingo.....see what i mean about it's gotta be easy for folks to pay attention to something!!!!! lol | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-11 9:44 AM
bingo.....see what i mean about it's gotta be easy for folks to pay attention to something!!!!! lol
At least I'm honest.  | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Not a Tortoise, Fracking Millions Behind BLM Evicting NV Rancher, BLM Wants That Land The Bureau of Land Management claims to be evicting the Bundy cattle from public land for which he has a legal permit to use for the benefit of a tortoise. They are spending incredible amounts of money and have 200 or more armed enforcement officers with vehicles dedicated to the removal of these cattle. Are they simply warm and fuzzy environmental do-gooders or could there be more to the story? Yes, there could be a lot more. A lot of potentially very profitable fracking leases, with exploratory drilling already being conducted. The money BLM gets from cattle is nothing compared to what they can generate with oil leases. While the tortoises are incapable of representing themselves as to whether they would prefer the risk presented by a herd of cattle to that of fleets of trucks and fracking rigs, one has to believe the impact imposed by the cattle would be significantly lower. Fracking requires a lot of trucks and trailers, carrying fresh water in, and transporting waste water back out. The recovered oil product will also need to be carried out by truck and the transportation of the equipment itself. No pipelines exist in these areas, trucks carry everything. Roads will have to be built. This map from the Nevada Bureau of Mines and Geology shows significant exploratory drilling being carried out in exactly the same area, “Gold Butte,” from which the offending Bundy cattle are being rounded up. Oil has been found in nearby areas and may already have been discovered in Gold Butte as well. The markings on the map indicate oil exploration sites, with the red markings identifying actual oil and gas drilling operations. Two weeks ago it was reported in ShaleReporter.com that the BLM struck it rich with the issuance of $1.27 million in Nevada oil and gas leases, at a recent auction in Reno. It is indeed fortunate for the BLM that these tortoises only recently became endangered by the cattle the Bundy family has been running in that area for generations. Had the same “risks” posed now succeeded in killing off the tortoises years ago, opposing the interests of the small-time cattle rancher would have been more difficult. There’s nothing like an environmental premise as a foundation for effective tyranny. Naturally, the coexistence of the Bundy cattle and the desert tortoise for all of these years does call into question the legitimacy of the government position and the validity of the supposed threat the cattle pose. The Huffington Post exposed the federal hypocrisy and outright lies. Their report from August of last year details how a lack of funding was being faulted for plans to kill the tortoises being held in a 220 acre conservation center in the same area. Given the incredible amount of manpower and equipment being used to evict the Bundys, one wonders how long the tortoise center could have remained operational if that money had merely been spent on what the Feds now claim to be the actual motive of their operations. One also wonders if they still plan to kill of the tortoises, is there any other rational explanation for the Bundy evictions? If the decision has been made that the tortoises must go, and there isn’t oil to be drilled, why can’t the Bundy’s stay? Rick Wells is a conservative author who believes an adherence the U.S. Constitution would solve many of today’s problems. “Like” him on Facebook and “Follow” him on Twitter. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Does the above article make any sense?
I've had the opinion for years that the government wants to take over all the ranches and farms. Control the food...Control the people.
Edited by Nevertooold 2014-04-11 11:48 AM
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| Nevertooold - 2014-04-11 11:38 AM
Does the above article make any sense?
I read this. But I am not sure it is credible. I am not sure the blog is talking about the land that is in question. The leases they talk about are in northern Nevada. | |
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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
   
| jbhoot - 2014-04-11 11:53 AM Nevertooold - 2014-04-11 11:38 AM Does the above article make any sense? I read this. But I am not sure it is credible. I am not sure the blog is talking about the land that is in question. The leases they talk about are in northern Nevada.
I don't think grazing leases would stand in the way of fracking. You could do both. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Nevertooold - 2014-04-11 11:38 AM
Does the above article make any sense?
I've had the opinion for years that the government wants to take over all the ranches and farms. Control the food...Control the people.
**** sure does! Follow the money! | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | TXBO - 2014-04-11 12:01 PM
jbhoot - 2014-04-11 11:53 AM Nevertooold - 2014-04-11 11:38 AM Does the above article make any sense? I read this. But I am not sure it is credible. I am not sure the blog is talking about the land that is in question. The leases they talk about are in northern Nevada.
I don't think grazing leases would stand in the way of fracking. You could do both.
As is being done in West Texas and other parts of the U.S. | |
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 Expert
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| jbhoot - 2014-04-11 11:53 AM
Nevertooold - 2014-04-11 11:38 AM
Does the above article make any sense?
I read this. But I am not sure it is credible. I am not sure the blog is talking about the land that is in question. The leases they talk about are in northern Nevada.
But this is talking about the land in question:
BLM Seeks Public Interest for Solar Energy Development in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Washington, D.C. - The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) today announced that it is accepting preliminary right-of-way (ROW) applications and expressions of interest from interested parties for conducting a solar competitive auction on the 5,717–acre Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone in Clark County, Nevada.
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| jbhoot - 2014-04-11 11:53 AM
Nevertooold - 2014-04-11 11:38 AM
Does the above article make any sense?
I read this. But I am not sure it is credible. I am not sure the blog is talking about the land that is in question. The leases they talk about are in northern Nevada.
You are correct. The town of Wells is 350 miles away. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FlyingJT - 2014-04-11 12:04 PM
jbhoot - 2014-04-11 11:53 AM
Nevertooold - 2014-04-11 11:38 AM
Does the above article make any sense?
I read this. But I am not sure it is credible. I am not sure the blog is talking about the land that is in question. The leases they talk about are in northern Nevada.
But this is talking about the land in question:
BLM Seeks Public Interest for Solar Energy Development in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Washington, D.C. - The Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) today announced that it is accepting preliminary right-of-way (ROW ) applications and expressions of interest from interested parties for conducting a solar competitive auction on the 5,717–acre Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone in Clark County, Nevada.
Still a matter of 'Follow The Money'! And Solar Panels areas are NOT compatible with grazing cows. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | i'm not sure how many cows or tortoises are gonna graze on a dry desert lake bed..............just sayin..... | |
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| foundation horse - 2014-04-11 1:02 PM FlyingJT - 2014-04-11 12:04 PM jbhoot - 2014-04-11 11:53 AM Nevertooold - 2014-04-11 11:38 AM Does the above article make any sense? I read this. But I am not sure it is credible. I am not sure the blog is talking about the land that is in question. The leases they talk about are in northern Nevada. But this is talking about the land in question: BLM Seeks Public Interest for Solar Energy Development in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone WASHINGTON, D.C. – Washington, D.C. - The Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) today announced that it is accepting preliminary right-of-way (ROW ) applications and expressions of interest from interested parties for conducting a solar competitive auction on the 5,717–acre Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone in Clark County, Nevada. Still a matter of 'Follow The Money'! And Solar Panels areas are NOT compatible with grazing cows.
The cows grazing is kind of mute point since Clark County purchased and retired the grazing permits to this land. I'm kind of amazed at the how quickly people jump on bandwagons- here is a quick jog of the memory on the history... Bundy quit paying for the land lease in 1993, Clark County purchases and retires grazing permits in 1998... Fast forward all the way to 2012 when BLM first documented the first stakeholder workshops for the Dry Lake solar panels- I'm actually kind of amazed at how many people are grasping at straws. Now how exactly did the solar panels affect his choice to quit paying fees 19 years earlier? | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | bscanchaser - 2014-04-11 2:21 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-11 1:02 PM FlyingJT - 2014-04-11 12:04 PM jbhoot - 2014-04-11 11:53 AM Nevertooold - 2014-04-11 11:38 AM Does the above article make any sense? I read this. But I am not sure it is credible. I am not sure the blog is talking about the land that is in question. The leases they talk about are in northern Nevada. But this is talking about the land in question: BLM Seeks Public Interest for Solar Energy Development in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone WASHINGTON, D.C. – Washington, D.C. - The Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) today announced that it is accepting preliminary right-of-way (ROW ) applications and expressions of interest from interested parties for conducting a solar competitive auction on the 5,717–acre Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone in Clark County, Nevada. Still a matter of 'Follow The Money'! And Solar Panels areas are NOT compatible with grazing cows.
The cows grazing is kind of mute point since Clark County purchased and retired the grazing permits to this land. I'm kind of amazed at the how quickly people jump on bandwagons- here is a quick jog of the memory on the history... Bundy quit paying for the land lease in 1993, Clark County purchases and retires grazing permits in 1998... Fast forward all the way to 2012 when BLM first documented the first stakeholder workshops for the Dry Lake solar panels- I'm actually kind of amazed at how many people are grasping at straws. Now how exactly did the solar panels affect his choice to quit paying fees 19 years earlier?
An even more relevant question is: Why is The BLM just now taking notice of this situation? There is more here than meets the eye. Tis the reason for "Follow The Money". Who will profit the greatest from removing Cliven Bundy from this locale? Any one with qualified answers to legitimate questions?
Another relevant question: Why has there not been a Civil Trial to determine who should be where?
Legitimate question: Since Clark County claims title to this tract of land, why does Clark County need The BLM to enforce Clark County Business?
Many legitimate questions with NOT ONE Legitimate Answer. | |
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| foundation horse - 2014-04-11 2:27 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-11 2:21 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-11 1:02 PM FlyingJT - 2014-04-11 12:04 PM jbhoot - 2014-04-11 11:53 AM Nevertooold - 2014-04-11 11:38 AM Does the above article make any sense? I read this. But I am not sure it is credible. I am not sure the blog is talking about the land that is in question. The leases they talk about are in northern Nevada. But this is talking about the land in question: BLM Seeks Public Interest for Solar Energy Development in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone WASHINGTON, D.C. – Washington, D.C. - The Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) today announced that it is accepting preliminary right-of-way (ROW ) applications and expressions of interest from interested parties for conducting a solar competitive auction on the 5,717–acre Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone in Clark County, Nevada. Still a matter of 'Follow The Money'! And Solar Panels areas are NOT compatible with grazing cows. The cows grazing is kind of mute point since Clark County purchased and retired the grazing permits to this land. I'm kind of amazed at the how quickly people jump on bandwagons- here is a quick jog of the memory on the history... Bundy quit paying for the land lease in 1993, Clark County purchases and retires grazing permits in 1998... Fast forward all the way to 2012 when BLM first documented the first stakeholder workshops for the Dry Lake solar panels- I'm actually kind of amazed at how many people are grasping at straws. Now how exactly did the solar panels affect his choice to quit paying fees 19 years earlier? An even more relevant question is: Why is The BLM just now taking notice of this situation? There is more here than meets the eye. Tis the reason for "Follow The Money". Who will profit the greatest from removing Cliven Bundy from this locale? Any one with qualified answers to legitimate questions? Another relevant question: Why has there not been a Civil Trial to determine who should be where? Legitimate question: Since Clark County claims title to this tract of land, why does Clark County need The BLM to enforce Clark County Business? Many legitimate questions with NOT ONE Legitimate Answer.
Well this isn't a new development for the BLM in the last 3 weeks. The BLM has been trying to get them to remove their cattle since they cancelled his permit and has been working on behalf of Clark County for nearly 15 years. Bundy has lost 2 federal court cases and had court orders to remove his cattle. In 2012, the BLM initiated round-ups but after Bundy threatened harm they regrouped and started to restructure the approach. Requested 2 separate times last year giving 90 day eviction notices which he failed to comply to so now they are evicting him. If he would have removed his herd himself- he wouldn't have lost anything that truly belonged to him.
Edited by bscanchaser 2014-04-11 2:55 PM
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New Info Detective
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| FlyingJT - 2014-04-11 11:04 AM jbhoot - 2014-04-11 11:53 AM Nevertooold - 2014-04-11 11:38 AM Does the above article make any sense? I read this. But I am not sure it is credible. I am not sure the blog is talking about the land that is in question. The leases they talk about are in northern Nevada. But this is talking about the land in question: BLM Seeks Public Interest for Solar Energy Development in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone WASHINGTON, D.C. – Washington, D.C. - The Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) today announced that it is accepting preliminary right-of-way (ROW ) applications and expressions of interest from interested parties for conducting a solar competitive auction on the 5,717–acre Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone in Clark County, Nevada.
More on the solar Energy.
http://www.dmldaily.com/land-grab-is-sen-reid-in-bed-with-the-chinese/ | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Turner1 - 2014-04-11 3:29 PM FlyingJT - 2014-04-11 11:04 AM jbhoot - 2014-04-11 11:53 AM Nevertooold - 2014-04-11 11:38 AM Does the above article make any sense? I read this. But I am not sure it is credible. I am not sure the blog is talking about the land that is in question. The leases they talk about are in northern Nevada. But this is talking about the land in question: BLM Seeks Public Interest for Solar Energy Development in the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone WASHINGTON, D.C. – Washington, D.C. - The Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) today announced that it is accepting preliminary right-of-way (ROW ) applications and expressions of interest from interested parties for conducting a solar competitive auction on the 5,717–acre Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone in Clark County, Nevada. More on the solar Energy.
http://www.dmldaily.com/land-grab-is-sen-reid-in-bed-with-the-chine...
There are many rumors and speculations surfacing about what is taking place at the Bundy Ranch in Nevada. The last speculation is that Sen Harry Reid is working with China to build solar farms on the land where Bundy’s cattle graze. Typically, we stay far away from the rumor mills, but in this case we’re going out on a limb because something isn’t right in Nevada. The entire situation is strange. One rumor that continues to surface claims the Bureau of Land Management, whose Director was Sen. Harry Reid’s (D-Nev. ) former senior adviser, has purged documents from its web site stating that the agency wants Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy’s cattle off of the land his family has worked for over 140 years in order to make way for solar panel power stations. Word floating around the web is thata BLM document entitled “Cattle Trespass Impacts” directly states that Bundy’s cattle “impacts” solar development, more specifically the construction of “utility-scale solar power generation facilities” on “public lands.” “Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle,” the document states. Another rumor is chasing a BLM report entitled Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone (BLM Technical Note 444 ). Apparently, it reveals that Bundy’s land in question is within the “Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone and surrounding area” which is part of a broad U.S. Department of Energy program for “Solar Energy Development in Six Southwestern States”. If any of this information can be confirmed we will try to be the first to let you know. Right now it is complete speculation, we cannot emphasize this enough. Read more at http://www.dmldaily.com/land-grab-is-sen-reid-in-bed-with-the-chinese/#gz3P4DMDYt1T8iSB.99 | |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | The CBS Evening news is about to show this Rancher. | |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | OK its over now. | |
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
      Location: Online | Bundy is going about this all wrong. He should be committing voter fraud, gun trafficking, or become an illegal alien, or join Islam, heck, just become a Democratic Senator. That way he could get away with anything. The government would leave him alone.
I still say there is more to it than an unpaid lease. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here's a video that's pretty interesting...a guy that worked for the BLM in the 90's shares some history on this issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkXbV9X6XX0&sns=fb | |
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Expert
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 More Famous than Dr Phil
         
| Holy crap!!! I just read all 10 pages of this....
you have have got to stop with all the dang quoting! | |
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    Location: South Dakota | rodeomom13 - 2014-04-11 5:59 PM Bundy is going about this all wrong. He should be committing voter fraud, gun trafficking, or become an illegal alien, or join Islam, heck, just become a Democratic Senator. That way he could get away with anything. The government would leave him alone.
I still say there is more to it than an unpaid lease.
Exactly!! What is this country coming too??? | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | I'm going to copy and past this from facebook. Here it is........... From the source!  I have had people ask me to explain my dad's stance on this BLM fight. Here it is in as simple of terms as I can explain it. There is so much to it, but here ...it s in a nut shell. My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the servival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars. These rights to the land use is called preemptive rights. Some where down the line, to keep the cows from over grazing, came the bureau of land management. They were supposed to assist the ranchers in the management of their ranges while the ranchers paid a yearly allotment which was to be use to pay the BLM wages and to help with repaires and improvements of the ranches. My dad did pay his grazing fees for years to the BLM until they were no longer using his fees to help him and to improve. Instead they began using these money's against the ranchers. They bought all the rest of the ranchers in the area out with they're own grazing fees. When they offered to buy my dad out for a penence he said no thanks and then fired them because they weren't doing their job. He quit paying the BLM but, tried giving his grazing fees to the county, which they turned down. So my dad just went on running his ranch and making his own improvements with his own equipment and his own money, not taxes. In essence the BLM was managing my dad out of business. Well when buying him out didn't work, they used the indangered species card. You've already heard about the desert tortis. Well that didn't work either, so then began the threats and the court orders, which my dad has proven to be unlawful for all these years. Now their desperate. It's come down to buying the brand inspector off and threatening the County Sheriff. Everything their doing at this point is illegal and totally against the constitution of the United States of America. Now you may be saying," how sad, but what does this have to do with me?" Well, I'll tell you. They will get rid of Cliven Bundy, the last man standing on the Bunkerville allotment and then they will close all the roads so no one can ever go on it again. Next, it's Utah's turn. Mark my words, Utah is next. Then there's the issue of the cattle that are at this moment being stolen. See even if dad hasn't paid them, those cattle do belong to him. Regardless where they are they are my fathers property. His herd has been part of that range for over a hundred years, long before the BLM even exsisted. Now the Feds think they can just come in and remove them and sell them without a legal brand inspection or without my dad's signature on it. They think they can take them over two boarders, which is illegal, ask any trucker. Then they plan to take them to the Richfeild Aucion and sell them. All with our tax money. They have paid off the contract cowboys and the auction owner as well as the Nevada brand inspector with our tax dollars. See how slick they are? Well, this is it in a nut shell. Thanks | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | ThreeCorners - 2014-04-11 11:18 PM I'm going to copy and past this from facebook.
Here it is........... From the source!
I have had people ask me to explain my dad's stance on this BLM fight. Here it is in as simple of terms as I can explain it. There is so much to it, but here ...it s in a nut shell. My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the servival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars. These rights to the land use is called preemptive rights. Some where down the line, to keep the cows from over grazing, came the bureau of land management. They were supposed to assist the ranchers in the management of their ranges while the ranchers paid a yearly allotment which was to be use to pay the BLM wages and to help with repaires and improvements of the ranches. My dad did pay his grazing fees for years to the BLM until they were no longer using his fees to help him and to improve. Instead they began using these money's against the ranchers. They bought all the rest of the ranchers in the area out with they're own grazing fees. When they offered to buy my dad out for a penence he said no thanks and then fired them because they weren't doing their job. He quit paying the BLM but, tried giving his grazing fees to the county, which they turned down. So my dad just went on running his ranch and making his own improvements with his own equipment and his own money, not taxes. In essence the BLM was managing my dad out of business. Well when buying him out didn't work, they used the indangered species card. You've already heard about the desert tortis. Well that didn't work either, so then began the threats and the court orders, which my dad has proven to be unlawful for all these years. Now their desperate. It's come down to buying the brand inspector off and threatening the County Sheriff. Everything their doing at this point is illegal and totally against the constitution of the United States of America. Now you may be saying," how sad, but what does this have to do with me?" Well, I'll tell you. They will get rid of Cliven Bundy, the last man standing on the Bunkerville allotment and then they will close all the roads so no one can ever go on it again. Next, it's Utah's turn. Mark my words, Utah is next.
Then there's the issue of the cattle that are at this moment being stolen. See even if dad hasn't paid them, those cattle do belong to him. Regardless where they are they are my fathers property. His herd has been part of that range for over a hundred years, long before the BLM even exsisted. Now the Feds think they can just come in and remove them and sell them without a legal brand inspection or without my dad's signature on it. They think they can take them over two boarders, which is illegal, ask any trucker. Then they plan to take them to the Richfeild Aucion and sell them. All with our tax money. They have paid off the contract cowboys and the auction owner as well as the Nevada brand inspector with our tax dollars. See how slick they are?
Well, this is it in a nut shell. Thanks
Here is a couple comments under her post. -
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Remove The government is stealing this mans cattle and then if they can get away with it, murder him and anyone with'em on his ranch. This is why people are there trying to record everything. Last report I read on a support site was the government had disabled cell towers in the area to keep information from getting out. -
Remove Dustin, I've been interested since I got wind of this. I read a couple of articles yesterday after having been made aware by a friend about Big Oil buying permits to do fracking development work on shale deposits on the property. Just last Tuesday alone there was $1.27M spent by oil companies for these permits. I checked three different sources re: the oil operations permits, looks legit to me. Desert Tortoise's? That Dog don't hunt.. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Who knows if this is accurate or true...but, I certanly hope so! http://www.ijreview.com/2014/04/129003-breaking-news-armed-standoff-bundy-ranch-ends-feds-leaving/ | |
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 Googly Goo
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I understand they are leaving with about 500 head of cattle. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | They just said on Fox News that he is suppose to get all of his cattle back but they aren't sure what kind of shape they are going to be in since they were rounded up with helicopters and they think some died.
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Some Kind Of Fun
   Location: Boonies Oklahoma | They are to be releasing the cattle any time now. The BLM has been seen leaving the area, since I've been watching over 80 blm vans have drove out. Here is the live feed: http://www.ustream.tv/AlexJonesLive | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | The Bureau of Land Management announced Saturday that it has concluded its mission to remove illegal cattle from a rural Nevada range after a tense week-long standoff with a rancher and militia supporters. "Based on information about conditions on the ground, and in consultation with law enforcement, we have made a decision to conclude the cattle gather because of our serious concern about the safety of employees and members of the public," the statement read.Bureau officials had dismantled designated protest areas supporting rancher Cliven Bundy, who they say refuses to comply with the "same laws that 16,000 public land ranchers do every year." "After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially," the statement said. "We ask that all parties in the area remain peaceful and law-abiding as the Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service work to end the operation in an orderly manner." A group of about 1,000 supporting Bundy cheered and sang "The Star Spangled Banner" when BLM made its announcement. The standoff at the ranch, some 80 miles north of Las Vegas, became an increasingly tense issue the longer it lasted, prompting elected officials in several states to weigh in, militia members to mobilize and federal land managers to reshape elements of the operation. The roundup started last Saturday after the BLM and National Park Service shut down an area half the size of Delaware to let cowhands using helicopters and vehicles gather about 900 cattle that officials say are trespassing. Bundy, 67, and his large family cast their resistance to the roundup as a constitutional stand. He says he doesn't recognize federal authority over state land. The dispute that triggered the roundup dates to 1993, when the BLM cited concern for the federally protected tortoise. The agency later revoked Bundy's grazing rights. Bundy claimed ancestral rights to graze his cattle on lands his Mormon family settled in the 19th century. He stopped paying grazing fees and disregarded several court orders to remove his animals. BLM officials, however, say Bundy owes more than $1.1 million in unpaid grazing fees. BLM faced criticism when police used stun guns on one of Bundy's adult sons during a Wednesday confrontation on a state highway near the Bundy melon farm in the Gold Butte area. Video of that confrontation spread on the Internet, along with blog commentary claiming excessive government force and calls to arms from self-described militia leaders. Some have invoked references to deadly confrontations with federal authorities, including a siege of a ranch home in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in 1992 and the fiery destruction of a religious compound near Waco, Texas, that killed 76 people in 1993. "Our mission here is to protect the protestors and the American citizens from the violence that the federal government is dishing out,” Jim Landy, a member of the West Mountain Rangers, who made the journey from Montana to Nevada, told Fox News Channel. “People here are scared." Arizona state Rep. Bob Thorpe of Flagstaff said he and state legislators weren't arguing whether Bundy broke laws or violated grazing agreements. Thorpe said the Arizona lawmakers were upset the BLM initially restricted protesters to so-called free speech zones. Sen. Dean Heller and Gov. Brian Sandoval, both Republicans, have also said they were upset with the way the BLM was conducting the roundup. After the areas were removed Thursday, Sandoval issued a new statement. "Although tensions remain high, escalation of current events could have negative, long lasting consequences that can be avoided," it said. Amy Lueders, BLM state director in Nevada, said Friday that two protesters were detained, cited for failure to comply with officers at a barricade on Thursday and released. That brought the number of arrests to three. Bundy's son, Dave Bundy, was arrested Sunday on State Route 170 and released Monday with citations accusing him of refusing to disperse and resisting arrest. Lueders said 380 cows were collected by Thursday. She declined to provide a cost estimate for the herding operation. | |
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Expert
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| Some faith in this country has been restored! But the fight isnt even close to being over.
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Expert
Posts: 1561
   
| Im not up to date so...
100+ cattle dead?? | |
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 I Am Always Right
Posts: 4264
      Location: stray dump capital of the world | With all of the drug trafficking, murders, robberies, escalating crime rate and the spiraling downfall of our finances, couldn't our government save some money and face by focusing on the bigger problems in this country than a rancher grazing his cattle? How much money, time and effort did they waste on this? That money could have been so much better spent. The stupidity of our 'leaders' leaves me speechless once again. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
   
| Itsme - 2014-04-10 11:30 PM The true American citizens need to arm themselves and set up "road blocks" and get behind the snipers, dont let the feds surround you. Road blocks around the feds road blocks and snipers behind their snipers.
Good guy sniper....
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | http://www.tpnn.com/2014/04/12/blm-told-to-stand-down-at-bundy-ranch/ | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | BLOCKBUSTER: Straight from a rancher's mouth
Permalink
Immediate family friend of the Bundy's tells it all in a mail sent to Jimstonefreelance.com
This is the jackpot of details you have never seen anywhere else, and if you did, they originated here, spread it around, ARCHIVE AND POST! (please link back to here when posting elsewhere) A Rancher TELLS ALL:
B Hunt wrote:...
I live in SW Utah. I grew up on a ranch less than 100 miles from the Bundy's ranch. My father knows Cliven Bundy. I know Cliven's son Ryan. This is not a hoax, it is an action of force by the BLM.
The BLM was going to sell the cattle at one of the smallest cattle markets in Utah. No cattle markets in Nevada would take the cattle without a properly signed brand inspection (which the BLM cannot obtain without Cliven Bundy's signature). The BLM paid the owner of the Utah cattle market $300,000 to do the sale ('R' Livestock Connection in Monroe, Utah, owned by one Scott G. Robbins, according to the Utah Business Entity Search). Utah Governor Herbert stepped in and forbid them from bringing the cattle into Utah without the legally required health and brand inspections (which again, require Bundy's signature) and that no feral cattle are allowed to be imported at all (per Utah statute). Because Bundy claims ownership over maybe 350-500 head of branded cattle, the other 500-700 estimated head of cattle would all be considered feral. BLM officially backed off, but we suspect they are still secretly shipping them through Utah without any permission to do so, to "private" buyers in Colorado. The contract cowboys that the BLM hired to do the roundup are from Sampson Livestock in Meadow, Utah (traitors one and all).
From what I understand, Cliven Bundy owns both the Water Rights and Grazing Rights to all of the land where his cattle run. If Bundy failed to use them, the Grazing Rights would revert to the BLM and would be retired, while the Water Rights would revert to the State of Nevada, likely to be sold to the highest bidder (which would probably be a bidding war between mineral companies that are behind this action with the BLM and the City of Las Vegas which is thirsty for water and has had multiple attempts to buy water--through eminent domain from Utah farmers and ranchers--from Utah, which were all blocked by the Utah Legislature and Utah Governor Herbert). Chances are, the BLM has already filed a claim on the water rights so that they can sell to the highest bidder (instead of the state) and are trying to get the cattle off to show that Bundy cannot use the water beneficially (much like what the US Forest Service and BLM both tried to do to Wayne Hage).
Now, for Cliven Bundy, he's not fighting this for his cattle or his own livelihood. He recognizes that he will probably die before this fight is over. He has said multiple times that he is fighting this to wake people up about the tyranny of the Federal Government and also to help wake up the western states about getting the rights to their own land back from the federal government, which has repeatedly shut down ranchers and closed off land. (MO = 1st, get all the ranchers, farmers, Native Americans, and foresters that use the land for positive, sustainable production off of the land; 2nd, grab up all the resources; 3rd, close off the lands to public access including camping, hiking, horseback riding, hunting, fishing, boating, shooting, etc; 4th, sell off the resources to the highest bidder regardless of what that will do to the land, the local environment, or the economy; 5th, collect royalties on the resources in perpetuity; 6th, reduce and eliminate all SLS and PILT payments to the states, impoverishing them beyond belief.)
Anyway, thanks for posting about this. It is important for us to be able to raise the appropriate resistance.
My Response:
Thank you for sending your valuable insight. This contained the details we were all missing. From this we can now firmly conclude:
1. The BLM's actions are not only flatly illegal, they are unlawful, and not only unlawful, they are so unlawful that it took bribing someone with a $300,000 payoff to get them to accept stolen cattle from a Government agency. I do not think that could be topped ANYWHERE else in the world, other than with something like a Mexican drug cartel.
So we have a clear cut case of unlawful and prosecutable actions by the BLM in this case.
2. The real goal is to shut down public access to these lands. Obviously Cliven Bundy was not a jerk, and he let people go back there to explore. I myself have done a LOT of back country exploring, and noticed in the early 2000's that they closed down all the back roads about a half mile before the destination they used to go to to discourage people from exploring the wilderness. Rather than drive the whole way, you had to get out and walk a considerable distance to scenes such as Swazy's leap, Paul Bunyans Wood Pile, and practically anywhere else you would want to go while out 4 Wheeling. And in the desert sun, that long of a walk was usually tough to do. This resulted in these types of locations no longer being visited, which effectively equaled a shut down.
3. The motives are for profit. Rather than manage the lands responsibly, the BLM is stealing it from it's rightful holders via corrupt actions and legal loop holes, and selling it off to corporate interests. This is cold hard proof that America is not a democracy, or more importantly a Republic, it is in fact a facist dictatorship where corruption rules and rights, freedom and honor are irrelevant.
The BLM killed hundreds of desert tortoises on purpose
They say they had to kill them because they did not have the funds to care for them. Here are two really good solutions to that "problem." 1. Just take them out in the desert and turn them loose. -OR- 2. They could have taken the three million dollars they said the Bundy raid will cost them, CALLED OFF THE RAID, and SAVED THE TURTLES with that three million. If they had three million to destroy Bundy, they had it for the turtles as well but did not use it for that because tyranny comes first. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........????? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Share...share...share! Of COURSE it's not over! It's only just begun. We need to not only take control of our land, we need to fire any & all 'law enforcement' who don't work directly for us. We need to dismantle the Dept. of Interior. ASAP. It might not be over! Please be aware people! I found this in another post: STAND YOUR GROUND - I DON'T BELIEVE THE CLIVEN BUNDY AND BLM STANDOFF IS OVER, DO YOU? I THINK YOU SHOULD READ THE FOLLOWING:Date: Saturday, 12 April 2014Time: 1840 ETTo: RedactedFrom Doug Hagmann At 1750 hours ET, I was contacted by my source within the Department of Homeland Security regarding the current situation at the Bundy Ranch. To put it bluntly, the people are being hoodwinked into believing that the situation is being resolved. It is not. It is a strategic de-escalation to fool the public. This source stated that the retreat of the BLM agents and the release of the cattle was actually crafted as a potential plan yesterday (Friday, 11 April 2014) based on the following: 1. A military assessment of satellite and drone surveillance imagery (AIR SPACE CLOSURE FOR 1 MONTH FROM THE 11TH OF APRIL TO THE 11TH of MAY) of the “patriot resistance. Drones under the control of the U.S. military were in use, taking real-time photographic images of not just the activity at the ranch, but "identifying the protesters, any arms and any supplies they might have or be carrying. “Mission accomplished.”2. Real-time communication intercepts between patriots on-site and their off-site support;3. Active monitoring of internet traffic regarding the coverage of events at ranch;4. The monitoring of real-time video from the scene. This source stated that a response by the patriot movement was anticipated, although exceeded their expectations. Although this was a real operation, they also ran this as a test case for future government operations once they saw the response. They were also actively managing the media, in some cases threatening to cut off White House access to anyone covering the event. Despite this, the coverage by the alternative media began to create a public relations problem that was not easily managed. Note the lack of acknowledgment by the White House regarding this event. They are intentionally framing it as a state issue, despite the fact that all federal response has been and continues to be from the White House. There is a reason for this – a reason that has not been identified in any of the public reports to date. I will explain in further detail in a follow-up report on Sunday, after this source attends [redacted] to obtain more specific information about future federal operations. Regardless, according to this source, the government will take back ‘their land’ as they must to fulfill international obligations. It was never about grazing rights or anything other than (1) “securing clear title” to the land, and (2) further demonizing any patriotic resistance. It is my understanding, based on the information from this source, that it is a critical task to create a situation that will also advance their agenda of gun control and confiscation. A more detailed report will follow on Sunday, 13 April 2014, with additional and much more specific information about their inside plans and future operations.PLEASE MAKE THIS VIRAL! [ Listen to " The Hagmann & Hagmann Report "] | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 7:57 AM i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........?????
They were saying yesterday....900 per 600,000 acres. | |
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| dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM
i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........?????
He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | I found this from 2012...evidently they've since targeted the Bunkerville area instead of Laughlin:
(Reuters) - U.S. Senator Harry Reid recognized nine years ago that connections between his official duties and the lobbying activities of his relatives could lead to ethical questions. In 2003, the Nevada Democrat publicly banned relatives from lobbying him or his staff after newspaper reports showed that Nevada industries and institutions routinely turned to Reid's sons or son-in-law for representation. Now, questions surrounding family ties are flaring again in Nevada around the Senate majority leader. He and his oldest son, Rory, are both involved in an effort by a Chinese energy giant, ENN Energy Group, to build a $5 billion solar farm and panel manufacturing plant in the southern Nevada desert. Reid has been one of the project's most prominent advocates, helping recruit the company during a 2011 trip to China and applying his political muscle on behalf of the project in Nevada. His son, a lawyer with a prominent Las Vegas firm that is representing ENN, helped it locate a 9,000-acre (3,600-hectare) desert site that it is buying well below appraised value from Clark County, where Rory Reid formerly chaired the county commission. Craig Holman, a lobbyist for the non-partisan advocacy group Public Citizen, said the senator is dealing with "an iffy ethical landscape" because of the family connections and should recuse himself from the project. "Is this just happening because ... it benefits the Reid family, or did Harry Reid actually believe in this?" Holman said. The senator has supported numerous clean energy projects in Nevada. Rory Reid cites energy as one of his specialty areas at the law firm. The two Reids deny discussing the ENN project. "I have never discussed the project with my father or his staff," said Rory Reid. Kristen Orthman, a spokeswoman for the senator, said he had not discussed the project with his son. The Langfang, China-based ENN Energy Group hopes to build what would be the largest solar energy complex in America. The site chosen with Rory Reid's guidance is in tiny Laughlin, Nevada, a gambling town of 7,300 along the Colorado River, 90 miles south of Las Vegas. County officials have said that they were so thrilled to recruit a company to the area, with the prospect of thousands of new local jobs, that they were eager to negotiate. ENN is headed by Chinese energy tycoon Wang Yusuo, who made a fortune estimated by Forbes at $2.2 billion distributing natural gas in China. Wang escorted Reid and a delegation of nine other U.S. senators on a tour of the company's clean energy operations in Langfang, and Reid featured Wang as a speaker at his 4th annual National Clean Energy Summit in Las Vegas last year. NEVADA'S LARGEST LAW FIRM To advance the Nevada project, ENN retained the state's largest and most prestigious law firm - Lionel Sawyer & Collins, where Rory Reid works. It is headed by Richard Bryan, a former Nevada attorney general, governor and member of the U.S. Senate. Rory Reid faced a one-year cooling off period from lobbying the Clark County commission after leaving his post in January 2011, and Bryan took the lead on ENN's negotiations with the county. Since the one-year ban expired, Rory Reid has been ENN's primary representative before the county, according to Steve Sisolak, the board's vice chairman. Rory Reid acknowledged representing ENN at both the county and state levels since January. He declined to discuss the project otherwise. Two months after Harry Reid's China trip, Lionel Sawyer registered ENN Mohave Energy LLC as an American subsidiary of the Chinese company. The firm negotiated with the county to buy the land rather than lease it, as the county's staff had recommended. In December, Clark County commissioners voted unanimously to sell up to 9,000 acres of public land to the subsidiary at pennies on the dollar. The deal spurred local controversy. Separate appraisals valued the land at $29.6 million and $38.6 million. The commission agreed to sell it to ENN for $4.5 million. The county did build in certain conditions before the project could begin, including milestones for jobs creation and investment. ENN also must assure the county that it has a power company willing to commit to buying energy from the solar farm. But in the eight months since the commissioners approved the deal, no utility has signed a power purchase agreement. However, Harry Reid stepped up again. The Democrat recently used an online discussion related to his annual energy summit for an as-yet unsuccessful effort to pressure Nevada's largest power company, NV Energy, to sign up as ENN's first customer. In the July 30 discussion, Reid said the project "would start tomorrow if NV Energy would purchase the power." The utility controls "95 percent of all of the electricity that is produced in Nevada and they should go along with this." Reid's online comments were first reported by the Las Vegas Review Journal. The power company responded by saying it had exceeded its minimum renewable energy requirements both last year and this year, though it would consider buying power from ENN in the future. A spokesman for NV Energy declined to discuss the matter further. Bryan, the head of the law firm, did not return repeated phone calls and emails. An official with ENN in Langfang did not respond to emails. In 2007, after a controversy over the number of lawmaker relatives engaged in lobbying, Congress passed the Honest Leadership and Open Government Act, sharply restricting the lobbying activities of close relatives of members of Congress. The law only applies to registered lobbyists and Rory Reid is not registered as a federal lobbyist in Washington or a state lobbyist in Nevada, according to records in both jurisdictions. (Reporting By Marcus Stern; Editing by Marilyn W. Thompson, Martin Howell) http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831 | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | musikmaker - 2014-04-13 9:17 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 7:57 AM i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........????? They were saying yesterday....900 per 600,000 acres.
600,000 is the area they have 'closed off' but i don't think that is what he has grazing rights for........ | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........????? He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing.
so before 1993, how many acres was he using????? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
   Location: SE Louisiana | The Feds are getting a small taste of what is to come... I hope they wake up and pay attention. | |
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| dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........????? He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing. so before 1993, how many acres was he using?????
I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's.
Edited by bscanchaser 2014-04-13 10:34 AM
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | Id like to hear some responses to finneys thread . because although I think we need to stand up to the government.. I agree with her about why can he not pay and others are paying..... entitlement why
Edited by Bibliafarm 2014-04-13 10:45 AM
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  Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
       Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Nevertooold - 2014-04-12 4:24 PM The Bureau of Land Management announced Saturday that it has concluded its mission to remove illegal cattle from a rural Nevada range after a tense week-long standoff with a rancher and militia supporters.
"Based on information about conditions on the ground, and in consultation with law enforcement, we have made a decision to conclude the cattle gather because of our serious concern about the safety of employees and members of the public," the statement read.
Bureau officials had dismantled designated protest areas supporting rancher Cliven Bundy, who they say refuses to comply with the "same laws that 16,000 public land ranchers do every year."
"After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially," the statement said. "We ask that all parties in the area remain peaceful and law-abiding as the Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service work to end the operation in an orderly manner."
A group of about 1,000 supporting Bundy cheered and sang "The Star Spangled Banner" when BLM made its announcement.
The standoff at the ranch, some 80 miles north of Las Vegas, became an increasingly tense issue the longer it lasted, prompting elected officials in several states to weigh in, militia members to mobilize and federal land managers to reshape elements of the operation.
The roundup started last Saturday after the BLM and National Park Service shut down an area half the size of Delaware to let cowhands using helicopters and vehicles gather about 900 cattle that officials say are trespassing.
Bundy, 67, and his large family cast their resistance to the roundup as a constitutional stand. He says he doesn't recognize federal authority over state land.
The dispute that triggered the roundup dates to 1993, when the BLM cited concern for the federally protected tortoise. The agency later revoked Bundy's grazing rights.
Bundy claimed ancestral rights to graze his cattle on lands his Mormon family settled in the 19th century. He stopped paying grazing fees and disregarded several court orders to remove his animals.
BLM officials, however, say Bundy owes more than $1.1 million in unpaid grazing fees.
BLM faced criticism when police used stun guns on one of Bundy's adult sons during a Wednesday confrontation on a state highway near the Bundy melon farm in the Gold Butte area.
Video of that confrontation spread on the Internet, along with blog commentary claiming excessive government force and calls to arms from self-described militia leaders. Some have invoked references to deadly confrontations with federal authorities, including a siege of a ranch home in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in 1992 and the fiery destruction of a religious compound near Waco, Texas, that killed 76 people in 1993.
"Our mission here is to protect the protestors and the American citizens from the violence that the federal government is dishing out,” Jim Landy, a member of the West Mountain Rangers, who made the journey from Montana to Nevada, told Fox News Channel. “People here are scared."
Arizona state Rep. Bob Thorpe of Flagstaff said he and state legislators weren't arguing whether Bundy broke laws or violated grazing agreements. Thorpe said the Arizona lawmakers were upset the BLM initially restricted protesters to so-called free speech zones.
Sen. Dean Heller and Gov. Brian Sandoval, both Republicans, have also said they were upset with the way the BLM was conducting the roundup. After the areas were removed Thursday, Sandoval issued a new statement.
"Although tensions remain high, escalation of current events could have negative, long lasting consequences that can be avoided," it said.
Amy Lueders, BLM state director in Nevada, said Friday that two protesters were detained, cited for failure to comply with officers at a barricade on Thursday and released.
That brought the number of arrests to three. Bundy's son, Dave Bundy, was arrested Sunday on State Route 170 and released Monday with citations accusing him of refusing to disperse and resisting arrest.
Lueders said 380 cows were collected by Thursday. She declined to provide a cost estimate for the herding operation.
           I guess the government realized what "cowboy up" is all about and you don't mess with a bunch of cowboys???? | |
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 Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
        Location: Broxton, Ga | Just a simple question?
So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?
Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This man knows what he's talking about, he's proved it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FAuJr-UQyk&hd=1 | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | CJE - 2014-04-13 10:17 AM Just a simple question?
So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?
Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees?
Simple? Lol... They wouldn't accept his money becasue they wanted his cows off the land...they'd previously 'bought out' the other 52 ranchers after they made the tortoise 'endangered', then ended up euthanizing 1,000's of them (the tortoise..so far!), come to find out Harry Reid's son is a lobbyist for a huge Chinese owned company who are planning a $5 billion solar plant there & they demanded the Bundy's and his cattle be re-moved. At least this is what I'm gathering to date...note the White House is very quiet, yet, the orders come from that direction. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | musikmaker - 2014-04-13 12:28 PM
CJE - 2014-04-13 10:17 AM Just a simple question?
So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?
Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees?
Simple? Lol... They wouldn't accept his money becasue they wanted his cows off the land...they'd previously 'bought out' the other 52 ranchers after they made the tortoise 'endangered', then ended up euthanizing 1,000's of them (the tortoise..so far!), come to find out Harry Reid's son is a lobbyist for a huge Chinese owned company who are planning a $5 billion solar plant there & they demanded the Bundy's and his cattle be re-moved. At least this is what I'm gathering to date...note the White House is very quiet, yet, the orders come from that direction.
do you have a legal statement showing this?.so many facts out there contradicting itself. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | musikmaker - 2014-04-13 11:28 AM CJE - 2014-04-13 10:17 AM Just a simple question?
So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?
Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees? Simple? Lol...
They wouldn't accept his money becasue they wanted his cows off the land...they'd previously 'bought out' the other 52 ranchers after they made the tortoise 'endangered', then ended up euthanizing 1,000's of them (the tortoise..so far!), come to find out Harry Reid's son is a lobbyist for a huge Chinese owned company who are planning a $5 billion solar plant there & they demanded the Bundy's and his cattle be re-moved.
At least this is what I'm gathering to date...note the White House is very quiet, yet, the orders come from that direction.
From reading everything I can find, I am left with the understanding that the BLM, in representing the federal government, was attempting to regulate ranchers off certain lands so they could be used for other purposes. The EPA is working on doing the same thing to row crops farmers. chipping away a little at a time, making proposals, backing away, making less drastic proposals that seem like a relief in contrast to what they first wanted to do. I wish I could say this shocks me, but it doesn't. When Al Gore was running for president in 2000, he made a statement in one of his speeches that it was his belief that agriculture should be shifted to 3rd world countries where production costs were lower. I wish I could find the exact quote, but I remember my daddy being upset and saying he would vote for Gore over his dead body. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Qualifier: I am fairly component @ Research and also possess some Critical Thinking Skills.
The BLM falls under Ultimate White House Authority. And Harry Reid dirty finger prints is all over this event. I had the thought Friday (before Saturday's Harry Reid reported involvement) that Energy Production was behind this shindig. Then Saturday Word surfaces connecting The Reid to Energy Production (Solar Panels) to China and Nevada's Desert. There is also documentation to prove that The Bundy Controlled Area was not the first Choice. Down by Laughlin Nevada was the First Choice from years ago. It is across the River from Bullhead City Az. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bibliafarm - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 12:28 PM CJE - 2014-04-13 10:17 AM Just a simple question?
So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?
Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees? Simple? Lol...
They wouldn't accept his money becasue they wanted his cows off the land...they'd previously 'bought out' the other 52 ranchers after they made the tortoise 'endangered', then ended up euthanizing 1,000's of them (the tortoise..so far!), come to find out Harry Reid's son is a lobbyist for a huge Chinese owned company who are planning a $5 billion solar plant there & they demanded the Bundy's and his cattle be re-moved.
At least this is what I'm gathering to date...note the White House is very quiet, yet, the orders come from that direction.
do you have a legal statement showing this?.so many facts out there contradicting itself.
No, I'm sorry I'm not privvy to that directly, however, I'd think if someone wanted to dig they could find the various court orders/decisions (by federal judges who are appointed). I'm certain that the few journalists who are covering this are digging, too. There's quite a lot of info & links on this thread along with google searches where you can do your own investigating! I haven't seen any 'contradictions' so much as af time-line of the above summary. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | foundation horse - 2014-04-13 11:04 AM Qualifier: I am fairly component @ Research and also possess some Critical Thinking Skills. The BLM falls under Ultimate White House Authority. And Harry Reid dirty finger prints is all over this event. I had the thought Friday (before Saturday's Harry Reid reported involvement) that Energy Production was behind this shindig. Then Saturday Word surfaces connecting The Reid to Energy Production (Solar Panels) to China and Nevada's Desert. There is also documentation to prove that The Bundy Controlled Area was not the first Choice. Down by Laughlin Nevada was the First Choice from years ago. It is across the River from Bullhead City Az.
Here's a 2012 news article concernig this, WITH Reid achnowledging his son's involvement:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831 | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas |
I'll watch it later. | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| Bibliafarm - 2014-04-13 10:44 AM
Id like to hear some responses to finneys thread . because although I think we need to stand up to the government.. I agree with her about why can he not pay and others are paying..... entitlement why
Bundy has never refused to pay. The question is whom to pay it to. To me this is a much bigger issue about State rights verses a federal agency's over reach of their authority. What court gave the BLM the right to act as law enforcement and enforce the Federal courts will. Why was there no US marshals there? It has been stated that this is state land and only managed by the BLM if this is true(which believe it is) why is a Federal Court even involved in this? Why as soon as the county sheriff got involved( the only illegal law enforcement) the BLM backed down. To me this should have been a state and county issue. Bundy tried to pay the county they refused the payment. It seems like a lot of people are assuming that the BLM has the authority to enforce a Federal Court order it does not under the Constitution I read. A US marshal could but not the BLM. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | jbhoot - 2014-04-13 12:13 PM
Bibliafarm - 2014-04-13 10:44 AM
Id like to hear some responses to finneys thread . because although I think we need to stand up to the government.. I agree with her about why can he not pay and others are paying..... entitlement why
Bundy has never refused to pay. The question is whom to pay it to. To me this is a much bigger issue about State rights verses a federal agency's over reach of their authority. What court gave the BLM the right to act as law enforcement and enforce the Federal courts will. Why was there no US marshals there? It has been stated that this is state land and only managed by the BLM if this is true (which believe it is ) why is a Federal Court even involved in this? Why as soon as the county sheriff got involved ( the only illegal law enforcement ) the BLM backed down. To me this should have been a state and county issue. Bundy tried to pay the county they refused the payment. It seems like a lot of people are assuming that the BLM has the authority to enforce a Federal Court order it does not under the Constitution I read. A US marshal could but not the BLM.
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | CJE - 2014-04-13 11:17 AM
Just a simple question?
So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?
Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees?
Neither. Tortoise(s) and grazing fees have been used as props to close down ranching for other uses. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........????? He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing. so before 1993, how many acres was he using????? I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's.
so based on that, he's been getting away with way over grazing his allotment for one and grazing way more than his allotted acres....????? | |
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| dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 12:47 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........????? He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing. so before 1993, how many acres was he using????? I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's.
so based on that, he's been getting away with way over grazing his allotment for one and grazing way more than his allotted acres....?????
Yes | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 292
     Location: Northeast Nebraska | CJE - 2014-04-13 11:17 AM Just a simple question?
So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?
Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees?
Does the fact he is the last rancher in Clark County tell you what you need to know? It's about CONTROL. Of the land, the water, the air, the food and the people. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
        Location: ND | bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 12:51 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 12:47 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........????? He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing. so before 1993, how many acres was he using????? I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's. so based on that, he's been getting away with way over grazing his allotment for one and grazing way more than his allotted acres....????? Yes
nobody really cares about that though | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 1:06 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 12:51 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 12:47 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........????? He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing. so before 1993, how many acres was he using????? I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's. so based on that, he's been getting away with way over grazing his allotment for one and grazing way more than his allotted acres....????? Yes nobody really cares about that though
Who set the allotment and why? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 12:06 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 12:51 PM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 12:47 PM bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........????? He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing. so before 1993, how many acres was he using????? I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's. so based on that, he's been getting away with way over grazing his allotment for one and grazing way more than his allotted acres....????? Yes nobody really cares about that though
??? RFC. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 12:47 PM
bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 9:50 AM bscanchaser - 2014-04-13 9:18 AM dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:57 AM i'm curious, since we seem to have so much info from people that know Cliven Bundy and the situation.......how many acres does he have grazing rights to and what is an average stocking rate for those acres.........????? He technically only has rights to his ground- 150 acres and I'm not sure if Clark County puts animal restrictions per acre or not. Some counties have a limit, others do not. The BLM ground that his cattle were on is still technically closed to grazing. so before 1993, how many acres was he using????? I think his original allotment was under 187,000 acres that had 150 aum's.
so based on that, he's been getting away with way over grazing his allotment for one and grazing way more than his allotted acres....?????
On Whose Authority are these regulations established? | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | For all those who have studied The Constitution, just where is the Authority Documented for all these Government Agencies to begin with? | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | I believe the comments and referenced alluded to in this article will support my and others position in regards to being against The Feds on this deal.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/18032-blm-s-... | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Just to make point easier to understand for those who would not bother opening the link...................................
BLM's Seizure of Nevada Rancher's Land Rights Unconstitutional
Written by Joe Wolverton, II, J.D.
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BLM's Seizure of Nevada Rancher's Land Rights Unconstitutional
By now, the broad strokes of the showdown in the Nevada desert between legacy cattle rancher Cliven Bundy (shown) and the federal government are readily discernible. For those needing an on-ramp to the issue, read this article written by The New American’s senior editor, William F. Jasper.
Most media coverage of the situation focuses on two claims by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). First, that Bundy hasn’t paid fees to the federal government for his use of “public lands.” Second, that Bundy’s cattle (near 1,000 head) are threatening the habitat of the desert tortoise (never mind that the feds have been killing thousands of those “endangered” animals for years).
What has failed to be adequately explored are the key constitutional conflicts between the BLM’s tyrannical behavior and the power granted to the federal government in the Constitution.
First, a brief review of the historical debates on the issue of federal ownership of “public lands” is in order.
On September 5, 1787, the delegates to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia were wrapping up the nearly four months of deliberations. Within two weeks, the document would be signed and sent to state conventions for consideration. But first, there was the question of control the federal government would be authorized to exercise over “public land.”
Discussions centered on the provision of the Constitution known as the Enclave Clause — Article I, Section 8, Clause 17. As he had done so many times, Massachusetts delegate Elbridge Gerry rose to employ his impressive oratorical skill to build better fences separating the federal government from the states and the people.
Gerry contended that “this power [to exercise authority over “public land”] might be made use of to enslave any particular state by buying up its territory, and that the strongholds proposed would be a means of awing the state into an undue obedience to the general government.”
There is no better description of the despotism of the BLM than “awing the state into undue obedience to the general government.” The federal government — and most commentators — believe that the federal government is merely exercising its constitutional right to control “public lands.” Sure, these apologists admit, Bundy is suffering personal deprivation, but that’s the price we pay for “domestic tranquility.”
Our Founding Fathers knew better. As Senator Mike Lee (R-Utah) explained in regard to federal seizure of significant land in the mountain West:
Then, as now, we have a grave risk associated with the fact that when the federal government owns this much land, the federal government has this much power. This was on the minds of the delegates to the Convention of 1787, that one of the things they needed to protect against was the concentration of too much power in the hands of the few, especially the concentration of too much power within the federal government. They understood, and each of them had a mission to protect the sovereignty of their respective states. They understood that if Congress had too much power to simply buy up too much land in any one state, disproportionately in some states, the federal government would have too much influence within that state.
Unfortunately for the state of Nevada, its own state constitution is little more than a paean to the unfettered ferocity of the federal beast. Section 2 of the Nevada constitution reads:
No power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair[,] subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States. The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existance [sic], and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.
Could there be a less constitutionally sound demarcation of the spheres of power of the states and the federal government? James Madison’s allotment of authority as set out in The Federalist, No. 45, was apparently not available to the drafters of the Silver State’s constitution. Madison wrote:
The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.
Cliven Bundy’s family has lived on this land for nearly 140 years. The Bundys have settled and improved this property since Cliven's ancestor accompanied Edward Bunker and a company of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints members who settled on the Virgin River, a few miles west of the Nevada-Arizona border in 1877.
In nearly every way, Bundy’s life and liberty are connected inextricably to this property — property they have preemptive rights to and have worked for years before the federal government realized there was gold — black gold — in them thar hills.
The BLM makes millions by leasing land such as that worked by Cliven Bundy to energy companies dedicated to fracking operations. A 2007 map produced by the Nevada Bureau of Mines and Geology shows oil exploration being conducted on the land surrounding Bundy’s spread. Some drilling operations in the area are already successfully siphoning oil from the wells in Bundy’s backyard.
There’s more than federal lust for oil and mineral leases, though, at work against Cliven Bundy.
Nevada native Senator Harry Reid (D-Nev.) knows something about the tortoise and how important its survival is. When a millionaire donor to Reid needed the BLM to fudge the boundaries of the desert tortoise’s protected habitat so that he could build a billion-dollar real estate development, it was not as precious a natural resource as it is now.
That donor, Harvey Whittemore, was convicted last May of making illegal campaign contributions to Reid. A news report of the verdict revealed, “Prosecutors said Whittemore gave money to family members and employees in 2007 to make contributions he had promised to Reid while concealing himself as the true source to skirt campaign finance laws.”
Harry Reid has another ominous tie to the federal government’s attempt to seize Bundy’s land. Just days ago, the Senate confirmed Neil Kornze, former senior adviser to Senator Reid, to head the BLM.
Next, a crucial question that has until now not been asked is: Does the federal government (or any government) have the right to pass “laws” such as those being enforced against Cliven Bundy?
For an answer, I turn to The Law, by Frederic Bastiat:
What, then, is law? It is the collective organization of the individual right to lawful defense.
Each of us has a natural right — from God — to defend his person, his liberty, and his property. These are the three basic requirements of life, and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent upon the preservation of the other two. For what are our faculties but the extension of our individuality? And what is property but an extension of our faculties? If every person has the right to defend even by force — his person, his liberty, and his property, then it follows that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to protect these rights constantly. Thus the principle of collective right — its reason for existing, its lawfulness — is based on individual right. And the common force that protects this collective right cannot logically have any other purpose or any other mission than that for which it acts as a substitute.
Thus, since an individual cannot lawfully use force against the person, liberty, or property of another individual, then the common force — for the same reason — cannot lawfully be used to destroy the person, liberty, or property of individuals or groups.
Such a perversion of force would be, in both cases, contrary to our premise. Force has been given to us to defend our own individual rights. Who will dare to say that force has been given to us to destroy the equal rights of our brothers? Since no individual acting separately can lawfully use force to destroy the rights of others, does it not logically follow that the same principle also applies to the common force that is nothing more than the organized combination of the individual forces?
If this is true, then nothing can be more evident than this: The law is the organization of the natural right of lawful defense. It is the substitution of a common force for individual forces. And this common force is to do only what the individual forces have a natural and lawful right to do: to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each, and to cause justice to reign over us all.
Finally, there is one constitutional consideration that needs to be made. Despite the Nevada constitution’s capitulation to supreme federal authority (authority, remember, that does not exist in the Constitution), there is another article in that document that it could be argued supersedes the other article’s cession of state and popular sovereignty.
Section 1, titled “Inalienable Rights,” of the Nevada constitution reads:
All men are by Nature free and equal and have certain inalienable rights among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty; Acquiring, Possessing and Protecting property and pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.
As of today, Cliven Bundy is not free and his God-given and inalienable right to use and protect land he and his family have had preemptive rights to for generations is being abridged. If nothing is done to defend his enjoyment of his rights, then soon the plutocrats on the Potomac will not recognize any restrictions on their power and they will seize any land, using any excuse, and will enforce those seizures with weapons.
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | musikmaker - 2014-04-13 1:05 PM Bibliafarm - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 12:28 PM CJE - 2014-04-13 10:17 AM Just a simple question?
So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?
Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees? Simple? Lol...
They wouldn't accept his money becasue they wanted his cows off the land...they'd previously 'bought out' the other 52 ranchers after they made the tortoise 'endangered', then ended up euthanizing 1,000's of them (the tortoise..so far!), come to find out Harry Reid's son is a lobbyist for a huge Chinese owned company who are planning a $5 billion solar plant there & they demanded the Bundy's and his cattle be re-moved.
At least this is what I'm gathering to date...note the White House is very quiet, yet, the orders come from that direction.
do you have a legal statement showing this?.so many facts out there contradicting itself. No, I'm sorry I'm not privvy to that directly, however, I'd think if someone wanted to dig they could find the various court orders/decisions (by federal judges who are appointed). I'm certain that the few journalists who are covering this are digging, too. There's quite a lot of info & links on this thread along with google searches where you can do your own investigating!
I haven't seen any 'contradictions' so much as af time-line of the above summary.
Thank you.. there are so many statements and opinions its hard to figure out the truth .. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1056
  
| RANCH SHOWDOWN BLOWS LID OFF LONG STANDING DEAL WITH CHINESE AND HARRY REID. He struck a deal with them on his last trip to China in giving them this land for solar energy company rights. Google article. He is behind all this and is responsible for the cattle roundup and sending BLM in | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This issue is proof positive taht if you hear something enough times you begin to believe it...so, one more time: The fed does NOT own the public lands!
Lol. I'm going to share this link as it's very informative (for those who are seeking the truth vs an arguement!) http://benswann.com/lofti-who-actually-owns-americas-land-a-deeper-look-at-the-bundy-ranch-crisis/ It's so hard to compile the info and post it & I don't think most ppl click on the links so I'm also going to try to c/p the proof (this is not the above link)...this is the Eisenhower Report from 1962, it's an inventory report on jurisdictional status on federal areas within states: TYPE OF LEGISLATIVE JURISDICTION
CODE 1 Exclusive Legislative Jurisdiction. This term is applied when the Federal Government possesses, by whichever method ac quired, all of the authority of the State, and in which the State concerned has not reserved to itself the right to exercise any of the authority concurrently with the United States except the right to serve civil or criminal process in the area for activities which occurred outside the area,
CODE 2 Concurrent Legislative Jurisdiction. This term is applied in those instances wherein in granting to the United States authority which would otherwise amount to exclusive legislativ jurisdiction over an area, the State concerned has reserved to itself the right to exercise, concurrently with the United States, all of the same authority.
CODE 3 Partial Legislative Jurisdiction. This term is applied in those instances wherein the Federal Government has been granted for exercise by it over an area in a State certain of the State's authority, but where the State concerned has reserved to itself the right to exercise, by itself or concurrently with the United States, other authority constituting more than merely the right to serve civil or criminal process in the area (e.g., the right to tax private property).
CODE 4 Proprietorial Interest Only. This term is applied to those instances wherein the Federal Government has acquired some right or title to an area in a State, but has not obtained any measure of the State's authority over the area. In applying this definition, recognition should be given to khe fact that the United States, by virtue of its functions and authority under various provisions of the Constitution, has many powers and immunities not possessed by ordinary landholders with respect to areas in which it acquires an interest, and of the further fact that all its properties and functions are held or performed in a governmental rather than a proprietary capacity.
CODE 5 Unknown. Land will be reported under this category when there is no data or record to guide the reporting holding agency.
EXPLANATION: The number (1 thro gh 5)appearing in the Jurisdic tional Code column indicates the legislative jurisdiction of the acreage listed on the same line in the Land columns. For example, a number 1 indicates exclusive jurisdiction by the Federal Government over the area shown in the Land cols on the same line.
This is the code structure for Clark County NV, note that the land in question, actually everything except the post office & Lake Mead Base, is code 4:
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | musikmaker - 2014-04-14 8:11 AM This issue is proof positive taht if you hear something enough times you begin to believe it...so, one more time:
The fed does NOT own the public lands!
Lol.
I'm going to share this link as it's very informative (for those who are seeking the truth vs an arguement!)
http://benswann.com/lofti-who-actually-owns-americas-land-a-deeper-look-at-the-bundy-ranch-crisis/
It's so hard to compile the info and post it & I don't think most ppl click on the links so I'm also going to try to c/p the proof (this is not the above link)...this is the Eisenhower Report from 1962, it's an inventory report on jurisdictional status on federal areas within states:
TYPE OF LEGISLATIVE JURISDICTION
CODE 1 Exclusive Legislative Jurisdiction. This term is applied when the Federal Government possesses, by
whichever method ac quired, all of the authority of the State, and in which the State concerned
has not reserved to itself the right to exercise any of the authority concurrently with the United
States except the right to serve civil or criminal process in the area for activities which
occurred outside the area,
CODE 2 Concurrent Legislative Jurisdiction. This term is applied in those instances wherein in granting to
the United States authority which would otherwise amount to exclusive legislativ jurisdiction over
an area, the State concerned has reserved to itself the right to exercise, concurrently with the
United States, all of the same authority.
CODE 3 Partial Legislative Jurisdiction. This term is applied in those instances wherein the Federal
Government has been granted for exercise by it over an area in a State certain of the State's
authority, but where the State concerned has reserved to itself the right to exercise, by itself or
concurrently with the United States, other authority constituting more than merely the right to
serve civil or criminal process in the area (e.g., the right to tax
private property ).
CODE 4 Proprietorial Interest Only. This term is applied to those instances wherein the Federal Government
has acquired some right or title to an area in a State, but has not obtained any measure of the
State's authority over the area. In applying this definition, recognition should be given to
khe fact that the United States, by virtue of its functions and authority under various provisions
of the Constitution, has many powers and immunities not possessed by ordinary landholders with
respect to areas in which it acquires an interest, and of the further fact that all its properties
and functions are held or performed in a governmental
rather than a proprietary capacity.
CODE 5 Unknown. Land will be reported under this category when there is no data or record to guide the
reporting holding agency.
EXPLANATION:
The number (1 thro gh 5 )appearing in the Jurisdic
tional Code column indicates the legislative jurisdiction
of the acreage listed on the same line in the Land columns.
For example, a number 1 indicates exclusive jurisdiction
by the Federal Government over the area shown in the Land cols on the same line.
This is the code structure for Clark County NV, note that the land in question, actually everything except the post office & Lake Mead Base, is code 4:
I'm not able to attach this so if you're interested you'll have to open it in a PDF file...it shows ALL the public land through out the states and the coding for it as explained. It also shows the years acquired & yr ende if applicable. Nobody can argue with this! Not even the fed...lol. (Although it says defend america...that is simply who made it available online, the document is the original Eisenhower Report). Here is the link where you can find info on each state...it's in the column on the right, click on state! http://www.defendruralamerica.com/DRA/Jurisdiction.html
Nevada: http://www.defendruralamerica.com/files/Jurisdiction-NV.pdf | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1094
    Location: Idahome | Bibliafarm - 2014-04-13 3:30 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 1:05 PM Bibliafarm - 2014-04-13 10:32 AM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 12:28 PM CJE - 2014-04-13 10:17 AM Just a simple question?
So is this about a tortoise or grazing fees?
Would this have happened if he had paid the grazing fees? Simple? Lol...
They wouldn't accept his money becasue they wanted his cows off the land...they'd previously 'bought out' the other 52 ranchers after they made the tortoise 'endangered', then ended up euthanizing 1,000's of them (the tortoise..so far!), come to find out Harry Reid's son is a lobbyist for a huge Chinese owned company who are planning a $5 billion solar plant there & they demanded the Bundy's and his cattle be re-moved.
At least this is what I'm gathering to date...note the White House is very quiet, yet, the orders come from that direction.
do you have a legal statement showing this?.so many facts out there contradicting itself. No, I'm sorry I'm not privvy to that directly, however, I'd think if someone wanted to dig they could find the various court orders/decisions (by federal judges who are appointed). I'm certain that the few journalists who are covering this are digging, too. There's quite a lot of info & links on this thread along with google searches where you can do your own investigating!
I haven't seen any 'contradictions' so much as af time-line of the above summary.
Thank you.. there are so many statements and opinions its hard to figure out the truth ..
I have not read the last few pages, but this is exactly what is happening. The d@mn tortoise has been a cover for many years, but in the end there has always been an alterior motive. I am glad that I do not live in NV anymore, but feel for my family who are still there and running thier cattle on BLM land. As far as I am concerned the Reid's can shove it.
Edited by KylaKris 2014-04-14 9:30 AM
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