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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 989
  
| Having an issue with my guy that I am REALLY hoping is just 1st run/rodeo of the season and ALOT of spring fever.
We had the opportunity to go practice in the arena on Friday, beautiful runs...
Now.. yesterday....
He was getting more and more jacked as I warmed him up, so I did what I needed to do to have safely warmed up muscles and got out of there, normally, he is a please horse warming him up.
Walked down to where we wait for our run... he was getting so light on his front end, that I actually got off of him and had to stand beside him while waiting our turn, he was completely wound.
I knew that I was going to have a lot of run, but figured if I could keep with the timing, we should have a smokin run. He likes it, always is eager to get into the arena.. I got on the rider before me, walked down the alley, he waited for me (amazingly with how high he was) to set him up and we took off, approach was nice, but then absolutely NO set or thought of for first barrel. 2nd was ok... and 3rd was really nice.
He definitely RAN to first, but it wasnt too fast that he shouldnt have been able to bury it... So, I was wondering... when you have a horse that just has THAT MUCH run... what exercises can I do to get him hunting and setting up for that first?
We have tried stop/back, Stop and counter arc away, slow and counter arc away, stop shoulders out, hip in, walking all the way with nose and hip tilted in, I usually will baby a bit to first, then go, but he should know his job by now, and I am out of ideas except maybe he is just one of those that will never have a smokin first...
I just cant get that set when he is that jacked, he gets no grain, and a grass/alfalfa mix, which he has never had issues with... Any one have more ideas? Like I said.. hoping that it was more spring fever as it was a bit ridiculous. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| He should only run the speed you ask him to at all times, if he takes off on you without control you need to start over until you have a handle on him, just because he is running is no excuse to not behave. Just my uneducated opinion... | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 989
| I agree 100% and I probably should have held him back and got a pretty pattern.. with a better time lol. But, being there two days ago with a super nice fast pattern.. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and lost.
I dont think he will ever be a consistent horse on a 'new to him pattern' but on the patterns we frequent quite a bit.. he is just about flawless full tilt. | |
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Location: South Dakota | You need to slow things down....get your horse correct and pretty....the speed comes with confidence. Give it time...you and your horse will benefit, otherwise you'll end up with a hot leaping horse, that is stressed to the max, hating his job....and emptying your bank account.
Paul Humphrey has a great dvd set that has every exercise needed, to train a beautiful turn...with consistency....www.breakingthemoldwithpaul.com or check out his Facebook page...it's is all about horsemanship...as Bo Hill has stated many times "Speed kills" | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Why are you reverse arcing away from the barrel?
It sounds like the horse may need a little help with his rate point.
With my colts, at the rate point, I will stop them when I am walking the pattern.
When I am running, I sit, and do a two hand bump and inside leg bump to get the rate and shape.
As they progress to becoming more solid, it varies if I do the 2 handed bump, depends on how they are feeling. | |
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  More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | The Connie Combs Squares exercise works well. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 623
Location: Iowa | Dumb question. ...What's a 2 handed bump?? | |
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 Party Girl
Posts: 12293
Location: Buffalo, Wyoming | No one has mentioned a soundness issue.
I have a mare that I know has bad hocks. When she is hurting she is a pain in the butt to warm up will fight at the gate and will always over run first.
Have you ruled out a soundness issue?
Edited by UTAHCANCHASER 2014-04-22 11:09 AM
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| I will ditto the soundness because your experience sounds just like mine on Saturday. My normally easy push style horse flew into the ring and had zero rate. We've suspected hocks already and had them injected yesterday.
Keep in mind prior to Saturday we had 2 ok runs and 1 beautiful run in Lincoln, although it didn't clock. He handled everything very well, although we had some bucks in the warmup. Then Saturday he was bucking in the warm up and got unusually muscled when we got to the arena, and fell to pieces during the run.
I'll let you know in 2 weeks if that has helped any for him, but is be curious to know this horses soundness history | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 989
| Thanks for the tips.
I am not sure if it is a training issue... or a pain issue. Not saying it isnt though... Only reason being.. I can run in a number of familiar arenas and he can fly at first barrel, with me pushing him, and he will bury it.
At one of the finals last year, we placed 5th out of 278 and 8th out of 278, these go from pro girls to 5d... And his third was wide.
After thinking more about different arenas and how it feels to me... I will add... It seems that it happens more when there is an alley approach involved. He will have a nice approach, and just before his rate point, he will stiffen from the face, neck, rib cage, and go about two strides past. And, yes it sounds like soreness, but he is fine in alot of other arenas that dont have alleys....
So, talking about it now.. I am wondering if it is starting in the alley.... Have to see if someone video'd it. | |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| Hold him to the end of the alley then and let him get his eyes on the 1st. I'll trot or slow lope or even walk if I think he's going to roll coal on me until I get darn near to the end of the alley and we can both see the first. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1414
| Three years ago I was having the exact same problem with my gelding. He is INSANELY fast and one you eased into the first barrel, 2nd and 3rd were great. He got more and more hot to ride, was flying past our first barrel, getting hot in alley and holding pen, just nervous and anxious 24/7. Treated for ulcers, changed feed, etc. No change.
Brough to vet, found he had inflammation in his bursa, we injected, changed shoeing and he was 85% better but there was still a disconnect I had with him.
I had been working with my colt starter getting a refresher on horsemanship, ground work (strictly for use with the "colts" of course) and I told him about my gelding with the "bad first barrel".
He said "You don't have a first barrel problem, you have an alley problem".
I said "Oh no he doesn't have a gate problem, he goes in everytime".
He said "He's so focused on the run and that's all he's thinking about in the alley and heading to the first barrel. He isn't focused on what you're asking, all he can think about it running. It takes him getting past the first barrel for his brain to kick in."
It made sense but wasn't convinced. I went home and for one week straight I did ground work with my 13 year old gelding. He was NEVER bossy on the ground, in fact he has great ground manners but this isnt' about ground manners - it's about your horse being hooked on you, waiting for your next signal. We got back to riding and did the same drills he does on the colts. It's all about getting their focus and them waiting on you.
My gelding never waited, he just did it and did it quickly.
The change has been mind blowing. I have so much confidence with him now and as the year progressed I was able to send him harder and harder to the first barrel. For me it all starts with focus and my horse being 100% committed to doing whatever I ask of him.
This was a prime example of it's never to late to learn something. With my horse being 13 I thought he was set in his ways and I just had to deal with some of the issues. I'm never been so thankful to be so wrong!
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 1D Lawn Mower
Posts: 1417
Location: Southeast, Texas | seven55 - 2014-04-22 10:29 AM
Dumb question. ...What's a 2 handed bump??
When you bump the reins, or "check" the horse with both hands on the reins to remind your horse to rate. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 989
| Roan Rider: Thank you for that.. that sounds identical to what is happening. I have been going over our alley entrances in my head.. and feeling it. He is so anxious to run, that he is not listening to me to set up properly.
He will hold back in the alley when I ask him, but I do believe you hit the nail on the head with him. Once in the alley, I have a heck of a time getting that right lead before take off, and maintaining it all the way to first. He swings his rump left, I have been working on getting it back to the right, and having that shoulder available to pick up my right lead. Normal riding, he will pick it up and hold it no problem.. just in the alley. So, I do believe we have a 'listening issue' like you said. He is so anxious to just GO he isnt listening.
I think I am going to start with no barrels in the arena and going from the alley straight down the arenas and working on having that correct lead and a correct, straight body and getting his brain back from the alley.
see how that goes... appreciated! | |
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1D Lawn Mower
Posts: 1417
Location: Southeast, Texas | I love a horse with a lot of run!
In my opinion, counter arcing him away from your first may be hurting you opposed to helping you. I, personally, use this exercise for horses that are shouldering into the barrel or cutting me off by turning too soon. It has helped me get a lot of horses PAST the barrel. I would go back to exercises that reinforce your rate point, and possibly move his rate point at first up a little.
Work him off the pattern to get him to really listen for your cues. Start at a walk and when you get ready to turn (in any random spot.. not around a barrel) over exaggerate sitting deep, using your inside leg to shape him, and looking over your shoulder. Get him to where he is so intent on listening to your cues that you can lope off, sit deep and shape him, and have him turn with little rein.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 989
| I do not counter arc very often, but he will sometimes stiffen his rib cage and lead with the inside shoulder going in... it allows me to pick it up and move it over. I would not use it for this problem though.
I did have lessons last year and she said I was sitting to soon and that as soon as I put my inside leg on, he was setting and turning, so the cues are there.. most of the time
He does sliding stops off the pattern with a loose rein saying whoa, sitting and giving him more rein lol. He does hip in, shoulder in etc. Just when that run kicks in.. everything else kicks out...
Edited by Puddy 2014-04-22 5:24 PM
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| I hope you have better luck than I did.
I bought a mare that was ALL run and no hunt....and blown up by a famous futurity trainer before she was 4. I tried everything I could think of. She was broke and even broker...like broke to death after I sent her off to two different calf roping trainers who both fell in love with her and started her from scratch. This was after I tried and tried and tried.
When I first got her , she ran scared, then she just RAN! She would turn when I asked, but would not rate to save our souls. If the ground would hold her, she would actually accelerate around the barrel. Way cool when it worked, but not often would the ground hold her and she would end up taking a bunch of little bitty steps around the barrel to stay upright. She would run faster then anything I ever sat on but never was a run away or hard mouthed at all and was more athletic than anything I have ever rode.
I spent over ten years trying to "fix" this mare. I loved just riding her, she was broke to death...until the adrenaline hit. And she absolutely loved a job and was wonderful to be around and work on. Since she was bred to RUN on every line I decided to make babies with her trying to cross her on a real "setty" stallion. Unfortunately I found out the hard way that she required live cover and after 7 years of multiple AI attempts (where we always got a heart beat), and 5 different stallions I got a baby on the ground out of an unknown, unproven 3 yr old stallion that was available last minute for live cover. Even more unfortunate was the fact that we lost her 3 weeks later.
She would not hunt but I absolutely loved that mare and miss her terribly.
I agree with everyone to back up, slow down and get 'em broke....it just didn't work for me. Wishing you the best of luck in finding a solution.
edited to add.... The best luck I had was something tried in desperation and surprised me when it worked as well as it did. I would walk her on the pattern until she relaxed enough to stop and settle at my rate point. Then I gave her a treat. Did the same with all three barrels ad did this for two or three days before a rodeo run with verbal, hand and seat cues.
My run that rodeo was awesome and got us a check. Unfortunately, trying to reinforce this "trick" ended up with her becoming disinterested in the treat as a reward (though she did accept the praise) but did get her to focus a little more on rate. Desperate times call for unusual measures.
Edited by rodeoveteran 2014-04-23 10:46 AM
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| Take him to a track and let him blow. If that doesn't do it, get rid of him/her now and save yourself a bunch of frustration, time, and money. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 989
| RodeoVetran... sounds familiar. Adrenaline kicks and it just takes over.
Bingo... track makes it worse... When he is like that if I warm him up longer, or work him harder, it pumps him up more.
After work today we are heading over to the round pen again and getting some listening cues down pat as reinforcement. Then the rest of the week will be arena work and listening cues again. See how that goes.
Thanks for the experiences! Nice to hear from some that have had the similar type. | |
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I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| Puddy - 2014-04-23 11:16 AM
RodeoVetran... sounds familiar. Adrenaline kicks and it just takes over.
Bingo... track makes it worse... When he is like that if I warm him up longer, or work him harder, it pumps him up more.
After work today we are heading over to the round pen again and getting some listening cues down pat as reinforcement. Then the rest of the week will be arena work and listening cues again. See how that goes.
Thanks for the experiences! Nice to hear from some that have had the similar type.
Some of the best runs I made on that mare were when I got to a rodeo late and did NOT have a chance to get her in the pen. She actually ran and listened better if I just jumped her off the trailer and ran. Anything else just got the adrenaline pumping.
I used to have those who told me to wear her down with "wet saddle blankets". The problem with that was she got more and more endurance. I however seem to get less and less. | |
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Too much run? Exercises to get them to hunt, set and turn?