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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
  
Location: PNW | So I have insured horses in the past, but always just for the cost of buying/replacing them.
Now... I've got a horse that I paid a song for, but have dumped a LOT of money into sending him to a top trainer, where he will be until about October. He has not made any competitive runs yet in barrels, but he won about 40k on the track in his previous career. I filled out the "quote form" on some insurance site and then when they called me back to "clarify" why I wanted to insure him for so much more than his purchase price - they didn't get it. Because he has made no money and won no titles in barrel racing, they are only wanting to insure him for about 2k over what I bought him for. His money won on the track "doesn't count" since he isn't racing or able to breed. This was a company that touts themselves as specializing in horses and regularly advertises in well-known publications.
What companies does everyone use to insure their horses? Have you encountered this "issue" before? It seems pretty straightforward to me.... Just like buying a 100k house, then remodeling and suddenly you have a 200k house. |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
  
Location: Florida.. | you have to show or have proof of earnings to insure over price paid ... usually so it doesnt seem unusual.. did you show and have copies of past earnings |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | svincent - 2014-04-28 9:34 PM So I have insured horses in the past, but always just for the cost of buying/replacing them. Now... I've got a horse that I paid a song for, but have dumped a LOT of money into sending him to a top trainer, where he will be until about October. He has not made any competitive runs yet in barrels, but he won about 40k on the track in his previous career. I filled out the "quote form" on some insurance site and then when they called me back to "clarify" why I wanted to insure him for so much more than his purchase price - they didn't get it. Because he has made no money and won no titles in barrel racing, they are only wanting to insure him for about 2k over what I bought him for. His money won on the track "doesn't count" since he isn't racing or able to breed. This was a company that touts themselves as specializing in horses and regularly advertises in well-known publications. What companies does everyone use to insure their horses? Have you encountered this "issue" before? It seems pretty straightforward to me.... Just like buying a 100k house, then remodeling and suddenly you have a 200k house.
Horses don't work that way. Houses have a market value as do cars, houses, boats etc. Horses are only worth what someone is willing to pay. I may have a horse I "feel" is worth 10K...but paid $2000 and have $500 more into it in training...it makes that horse worth $2500 because I can "prove" that is what I have into it.
So if you get a heck of a deal on a horse that is all it is worth. Doesn't matter what it won prior. Insurance companies don't care that it won $40K yesterday...it may break a leg tomorrow and not be worth a penny.
I bought my show horse pretty cheap. I added what I trained him for as I have trained professionally in the past and have what I charge...also added what I paid for lessons and also what I paid to have 30 days on him. It hasn't added up to much, but he also has a small AQHA show record (and I mean very small) so I insured him for a reasonable amount. At this point if he died, I couldn't replace him for a similar horse (training/breeding) but it would make it not such a financial loss for what I have into him now. Once he is more valuable, I will increase his value as much as I can. |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | But the horse he is NOW, after $$$$ of training - I'm paying $50 less than his purchase price, in training fees every month - is NOT the same horse I bought.
If I insured him for what I paid for him - I couldn't replace him with an unbroke donkey...
Is it dishonest to just factor in his training when I inform the insurance company of his purchase price? |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | If you have training AFTER you bought him, you can add all that. Otherwise if you need to file a claim, you will have to have hard proof of how he is of the value you claim. I keep bill of sales on what I have paid and also copies of checks paid for training. |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | wyoming barrel racer - 2014-04-28 10:49 PM
svincent - 2014-04-28 9:34 PM So I have insured horses in the past, but always just for the cost of buying/replacing them. Now... I've got a horse that I paid a song for, but have dumped a LOT of money into sending him to a top trainer, where he will be until about October. He has not made any competitive runs yet in barrels, but he won about 40k on the track in his previous career. I filled out the "quote form" on some insurance site and then when they called me back to "clarify" why I wanted to insure him for so much more than his purchase price - they didn't get it. Because he has made no money and won no titles in barrel racing, they are only wanting to insure him for about 2k over what I bought him for. His money won on the track "doesn't count" since he isn't racing or able to breed. This was a company that touts themselves as specializing in horses and regularly advertises in well-known publications. What companies does everyone use to insure their horses? Have you encountered this "issue" before? It seems pretty straightforward to me.... Just like buying a 100k house, then remodeling and suddenly you have a 200k house.
Horses don't work that way. Houses have a market value as do cars, houses, boats etc. Horses are only worth what someone is willing to pay. I may have a horse I "feel" is worth 10K...but paid $2000 and have $500 more into it in training...it makes that horse worth $2500 because I can "prove" that is what I have into it.
So if you get a heck of a deal on a horse that is all it is worth. Doesn't matter what it won prior. Insurance companies don't care that it won $40K yesterday...it may break a leg tomorrow and not be worth a penny.
I bought my show horse pretty cheap. I added what I trained him for as I have trained professionally in the past and have what I charge...also added what I paid for lessons and also what I paid to have 30 days on him. It hasn't added up to much, but he also has a small AQHA show record (and I mean very small) so I insured him for a reasonable amount. At this point if he died, I couldn't replace him for a similar horse (training/breeding) but it would make it not such a financial loss for what I have into him now. Once he is more valuable, I will increase his value as much as I can.
I can PROVE he has been in training for the last six months at such and such price. Which is all I'm looking to insure him for - it's not like I just picked a random giant number out of my head. I applied to insure him for the purchase price + money I've put into his training. Not a dime more. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Then I don't see an issue?? Is the company having one? I would try someone else. I use LCI, have filed claims with them and they are good people. Mine has what they call an agreed value. I have never had them question what I ask for, but it is usually really reasonable. Every year I have to fill out new forms and put down new training/winnings etc.  |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | wyoming barrel racer - 2014-04-28 11:01 PM
If you have training AFTER you bought him, you can add all that. Otherwise if you need to file a claim, you will have to have hard proof of how he is of the value you claim. I keep bill of sales on what I have paid and also copies of checks paid for training.
Yes, this. Say I paid $1k for him, and now he's in training for $1k per month - he's been there six months. I'd like to insure him for that 7k - for no other reason than to get my money back should he break a leg or something. I feel like that's not unreasonable. Or maybe it is?
He is PRICELESS to me, but I'm not a dummy. I just am interested in protecting the investment at this point. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I'm not saying you are trying to scam them. I just know of people that buy a horse cheap for $3000 and insure for $10K saying they paid that and then when horse dies they can't come up with proof and are SOL. Insurance hates to pay out... |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | Bibliafarm - 2014-04-28 10:46 PM
you have to show or have proof of earnings to insure over price paid ... usually so it doesnt seem unusual.. did you show and have copies of past earnings
Yes, I have records of his track earnings. But because he's no longer racing and you can't breed him - they are irrelevant to me seeking insurance. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | svincent - 2014-04-28 10:06 PM wyoming barrel racer - 2014-04-28 11:01 PM If you have training AFTER you bought him, you can add all that. Otherwise if you need to file a claim, you will have to have hard proof of how he is of the value you claim. I keep bill of sales on what I have paid and also copies of checks paid for training. Yes, this. Say I paid $1k for him, and now he's in training for $1k per month - he's been there six months. I'd like to insure him for that 7k - for no other reason than to get my money back should he break a leg or something. I feel like that's not unreasonable. Or maybe it is? He is PRICELESS to me, but I'm not a dummy. I just am interested in protecting the investment at this point.
no that sounds normal. I paid $1500 for my show horse, worked with him myself for over a year, paid $650 to get him started under saddle and about $150 in showmanship lessons (3), have showed him and won on a local level and placed top 1/3 at the AQHA shows so I insured him for $4000. They thought that was more than reasonable. He also has Maj Med and cut his foot really bad the day I picked him up from the trainer. My deductable is $300, his bill is roughly $450 so they will cut me a check for $150, that foot will have a clause for a year and then he should be good to go pending nothing else happens. |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | wyoming barrel racer - 2014-04-28 11:07 PM
I'm not saying you are trying to scam them. I just know of people that buy a horse cheap for $3000 and insure for $10K saying they paid that and then when horse dies they can't come up with proof and are SOL. Insurance hates to pay out...
Yea I definitely have heard of people doing this - with more than just horses. Lol
I bought him from a track trainer who had hoped to turn him into his elk-hunting horse. But he's 16.3 and a little goofy... I bought him for the same price that the old guy needed to pay for a 16 year old overweight pasture pet that WOULD elk hunt - because he just wanted to retire already, at like 79 years old.
But NOW.... He's been in training with an NFR qualifier for six months, turns out he's pretty dang talented, and he will stay with her until after I'm done recovering from my cesarean (octoberish).
I'd say there's been a bit of a justifiable value increase on him. Lol |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | wyoming barrel racer - 2014-04-28 11:10 PM
svincent - 2014-04-28 10:06 PM wyoming barrel racer - 2014-04-28 11:01 PM If you have training AFTER you bought him, you can add all that. Otherwise if you need to file a claim, you will have to have hard proof of how he is of the value you claim. I keep bill of sales on what I have paid and also copies of checks paid for training. Yes, this. Say I paid $1k for him, and now he's in training for $1k per month - he's been there six months. I'd like to insure him for that 7k - for no other reason than to get my money back should he break a leg or something. I feel like that's not unreasonable. Or maybe it is? He is PRICELESS to me, but I'm not a dummy. I just am interested in protecting the investment at this point.
Thanks! I'll look into LCI :) |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 929
| I use Markel and they were pretty straightforward, too. I also have major medical and my horse is insured for $5k. Once he goes to training I will probably get him covered for more. I have a $375 deductible for medical and $5k of colic surgery insurance. If you need or want contact info please let me know and I will hook you up with one of my friends, she is one of their agents and can help you figure it out. |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | RodeoCowgirl4u - 2014-04-28 11:31 PM
I use Markel and they were pretty straightforward, too. I also have major medical and my horse is insured for $5k. Once he goes to training I will probably get him covered for more. I have a $375 deductible for medical and $5k of colic surgery insurance. If you need or want contact info please let me know and I will hook you up with one of my friends, she is one of their agents and can help you figure it out.
This is the company I originally spoke with - and the lady acted like I was speaking Mandarin or something. I liked their coverage though, and would love to maybe talk with the company again. Could you message me your friend's info? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 678
Location: Canada | We have to declare purchase price or value. If I buy a horse for $3500 but replacement value is actually $7000 that's what we insure for. We have to justify why the increase over purchase price but I haven't had one declined.
Basically here if you can justify the costs you can insure for that value. I always buy horses from the US (I'm in Canada) and I find local ads for horses listed of the same caliber. I compare prices, ages, and records and use an average to determine the replacement value of the horse (if higher then purchase price) and that's what I insure for.
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| So I'm not trying to hijack the thread but my question is along these lines.
I've long thought about insuring my horse since he has become more and more valuable to me. Here's the kicker - 3 years ago he was given to me. Purchase price is $0. I've done all the training on him myself, training fees are $0, and I'm not a professional so there's no typical monthly rate I can plug in there. We are in the seasoning phase right now and I think he will round out to be a competitive local/regional jackpot/rodeo horse and be competitive at the bigger jackpots.
Can I even insure this horse? I meant to talk to Wilkins at BRF but kept getting sidetracked when they were at the booth and when I was free they weren't there... |
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | There are ways to insure anything but it may not be for a value you prefer? In your free horse case they will go on the stud fee and what the dam has produced as a starting value. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | They have guidelines to determine free horse plus training etc....
proof is needed for winnings etc if you do want to increase value of horse per say.. save your documents etc..
I use markel as well and never had any issues.. claims and price etc..
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | When I insured my 4 year old last year, I had traded for her as a yearling, so no real purchase price to disclose. I took what would have been her approximate market value before entering training, and added training fees. That gave me pretty close to what should have been her market value were I to sell her after she was broke. Had no issues with the valuation. |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | svincent - 2014-04-28 11:40 PM RodeoCowgirl4u - 2014-04-28 11:31 PM I use Markel and they were pretty straightforward, too. I also have major medical and my horse is insured for $5k. Once he goes to training I will probably get him covered for more. I have a $375 deductible for medical and $5k of colic surgery insurance. If you need or want contact info please let me know and I will hook you up with one of my friends, she is one of their agents and can help you figure it out. This is the company I originally spoke with - and the lady acted like I was speaking Mandarin or something. I liked their coverage though, and would love to maybe talk with the company again. Could you message me your friend's info?
I used Markel for a short time many years ago and was not impressed with their service at all. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | Have you tried Cinquini Insurance Services? The guy, Stacey, is really nice and helpful. Tries to work with you and super affordable. Here is his number (949)289-4722 or you can email him at stacey@cinquiniranchfarm.com |
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 ND Sweetheart
Posts: 3471
Location: In My Own Dream Land | I use Plains Horizon. I stated purchase price, PLUS board, care, etc for the 2 years before he went to the trainer, plus any and all fees at the trainer. They had no issue what so ever. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1018
Location: Central, Texas | tThompson - 2014-04-30 7:23 PM I use Plains Horizon. I stated purchase price, PLUS board, care, etc for the 2 years before he went to the trainer, plus any and all fees at the trainer. They had no issue what so ever.
But did you file a claim? I have talked to a few insurance companies, and they have no problem taking your money to insure for whatever value, but when it comes time to make a claim how is it going to work if that horse dies? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 725
| In this case the horse owner should be able to use the purchase price as the foundation for the value. After the purchase price all companies that we deal with then will allow you to increase the value based on additional training etc. That sounds like all you are wanting and I don't see why you would be having a problem. YOu can;t use the winning on the track becasue that was actually earned before you purchased the horse and should have been taken into consideration in establishing the purchase price. |
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 The One
Posts: 7998
Location: South Georgia | svincent - 2014-04-29 12:06 AM wyoming barrel racer - 2014-04-28 11:01 PM If you have training AFTER you bought him, you can add all that. Otherwise if you need to file a claim, you will have to have hard proof of how he is of the value you claim. I keep bill of sales on what I have paid and also copies of checks paid for training. Yes, this. Say I paid $1k for him, and now he's in training for $1k per month - he's been there six months. I'd like to insure him for that 7k - for no other reason than to get my money back should he break a leg or something. I feel like that's not unreasonable. Or maybe it is? He is PRICELESS to me, but I'm not a dummy. I just am interested in protecting the investment at this point.
You can insure him for that amount (at least with the companies I have used). I had one that the value was raised due to training expenses. |
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The One
Posts: 7998
Location: South Georgia | Dobbs Equine Insurance is amazing. They have a website. I highly recommend them, by the way. |
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Insuring a horse after pouring $$$ money into it.