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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
 
Location: Oklahoma | I know that the Crown C has a completely different saddle fit theory, but would the gullet sizes still run true? I believe I read that the Caldwell Rocket has a 7 1/2" gullet (correct me if I'm wrong), would I still be looking at a 7 1/2" Crown C or does the positioning alter the gullets? What about Pozzis? I've have read/researched the least on their fit, but does anyone find them successfully fitting high withered horses? |
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 Expert
Posts: 1440
 
Location: Texas | The fit would be very different due to where the saddle sits on the horse. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 503
| barrelbasher - 2014-05-07 7:24 PM
The fit would be very different due to where the saddle sits on the horse.
Agree with this. Could be wrong but they most likely have different bar angles as well which would effect what gullet you need for each. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| Yes they will fit different.
That being said I had really good luck with a Martin on my high withered but flat backed boy. I did not have the chance to try a pozzi on him (the tack shop carried them but only had wide trees) or a Caldwell for comparison.
I will say that his withers are not as "high" as they were when we started in the crown c. We started in mid march with a 7" gullet and now we are growing into an 8" with a shim. The muscle atrophy that makes withers appear high is filling in for sure. I am taking pictures along the way and I'll post them when it's a little more dramatic. |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | OhMax - 2014-05-07 11:17 PM Yes they will fit different. That being said I had really good luck with a Martin on my high withered but flat backed boy. I did not have the chance to try a pozzi on him (the tack shop carried them but only had wide trees) or a Caldwell for comparison. I will say that his withers are not as "high" as they were when we started in the crown c. We started in mid march with a 7" gullet and now we are growing into an 8" with a shim. The muscle atrophy that makes withers appear high is filling in for sure. I am taking pictures along the way and I'll post them when it's a little more dramatic.
Thanks! I know the gelding I will be fitting will surely go up in gullets once he gets going (assuming with a Crown C)... his withers seem abnormally high for even a high withered horse. I'd like to see him gain probably 75-100 pounds.. mainly on his topline. Oh, the fun I envisioning us having getting saddles.. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| Try and work with a Martin fitter for sure. You may be able to buy a bit bug and shim for while while he gains muscle, save a little saddle swapping. Muscle will come quickly if you're working and feeding him in such a way that promotes muscle growth...I started in a 7" and started looking for my 8" almost exactly a month later. I'm shimming the 8" so I'll be good for a bit now, I plan to have him seen by a fitter again before going up any more. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: South MS | I have a pozzi. Love it on my high whither horse as swell is tall and gives you clearance. I have tried a Martin as well but like the pozzi better
Edited by Lmichaels 2014-05-09 11:51 AM
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 Expert
Posts: 1552
Location: Texas | I had a chance to watch the saddle rep for Martin at the BBR. I have a bulletin for them.....Applying saddle shims does not allow the back muscles to regenerate! When you "shim" you still are applying pressure to the atrophied area. It would be like you buying boots that don't fit then being told to apply bandaids or more socks to make them fit. It was neat to see that three of six saddles makers offered naked trees to fit with at the BBR. Robbie Phillips Saddlery, Caldwell Saddlery, and Double J Saddlery. Why didn't Martin? They just don't fit and that's why! Don't fall the the "Shim Fairytale". |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Cowjazz - 2014-05-09 7:27 PM
I had a chance to watch the saddle rep for Martin at the BBR. I have a bulletin for them.....Applying saddle shims does not allow the back muscles to regenerate! When you "shim" you still are applying pressure to the atrophied area. It would be like you buying boots that don't fit then being told to apply bandaids or more socks to make them fit. It was neat to see that three of six saddles makers offered naked trees to fit with at the BBR. Robbie Phillips Saddlery, Caldwell Saddlery, and Double J Saddlery. Why didn't Martin? They just don't fit and that's why! Don't fall the the "Shim Fairytale".
Singling out Crown C is poor taste. As the same could be said with Circle Y Reinsman, Sloan, Coats, Ammerman, Merill, and I know I am forgetting some.
This is how I see the shims, they are soft, keep the saddle in the proper position, so it doesn't dip down and pinch the horse anywhere. Everytime the horse moves the leg, the shim compresses and decompresses, a regular saddle tree has no give unless you are looking at a flex tree, and even it is minimal. |
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Expert
Posts: 1552
Location: Texas | If your saddle fit, why would it be dipping down? I singled out Crown C as they are the #1 promotor of the "Shims". I watched Phillip Hinojosa from Double J fit several saddles for people. Never did I hear him suggest shims. You will find that nearly all of the upper end saddle makers feel the same way about the "Shims". |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Cowjazz - 2014-05-09 10:49 PM
If your saddle fit, why would it be dipping down? I singled out Crown C as they are the #1 promotor of the "Shims". I watched Phillip Hinojosa from Double J fit several saddles for people. Never did I hear him suggest shims. You will find that nearly all of the upper end saddle makers feel the same way about the "Shims".
Their philosophy is different, the saddle is back farther then other saddles, the shims are used for horses to fill back out, as a lot of the horses in any western discipline have had ill fitting saddles which have caused atrophy in the muscle below the withers and sometimes a little ack from the withers.
In the past 5-10 years there has been much more emphasis on a proper saddle fit, so Martin is trying to get the horses muscles back to normal. |
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Expert
Posts: 1815
| I have to agree that I think the martin c saddle theory and shimming is a way to market numerous saddles......that being said, I am sure shimming is the only answer for some horses. However, when you have a horse that runs downhill, and not due to atrophy, but rather breeding..........he is not going to become magically level by shimming until he grows. Can shimming possibly make him more comfortable? maybe......but I would rather buy a saddle that fits.......they are out there |
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 Big Gun
Posts: 2216
Location: Texas | I have a Martin racer, have to use 2 shims, had the saddle 18 months, horse hasn't filled in. The Martin saddles are well made, great workmanship, but I just can't use it any longer. It throws me forward something terrible. I called double j, told them I needed a wide tree, they sent me a saddle the next day, tried it on my horse, he didn't like it, decided to go to yoakum since it was only 3 hrs away, they tried several trees on him until they found one that fit him, told me to take it home and try it and I love it. It fits my horse, doesn't throw me forward and so happy with the customer service and demo program. Had Martin had a demo program I wouldn't have bought the racer because of it throwing me forward. I think at the time, Martin had one saddle to loan out. Live and learn. When dealing with that much money, make sure it fits you and your horse. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| There's a saddle for every horse and every riding style out there.
I'm shimming my crown c currently, but I am seeing muscle building behind his wither. Once a week I saddle him without a pad and check the fit, etc.
Since I grew up riding h/j I like the more forward ride of the martin's. I feel really trapped and behind in anything that wants me to at way back on my pockets.
To each there own. The important thing is that you're not buying the saddle for a brand or a name or a "look" but because it fits you and the horse and allows you to perform to the best of your ability. As long as the workmanship is quality I'm not going to degrade another saddle maker because their setup didn't work for my particular style and horse. |
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  Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | They will all also fit differenty because the bars are going to be angled and shaped differently. Look at all of it, not just your gullet. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1094
Location: Idahome | Lmichaels - 2014-05-09 10:50 AM
I have a pozzi. Love it on my high whither horse as swell is tall and gives you clearance. I have tried a Martin as well but like the pozzi better
Agreed! I have been using my Pozzi for a couple of months and I love it for the both of us. I have a short, narrow, high withered horse and it fits perfect. I have the standard tree. My horse had some (not much) atrophy from an ill fitting saddle and I can already see a difference in just the couple of months. I use it on my colt that doesn't have much for withers and it fits her as well. I ordered mine through Phillip Hinijosa and he had send I could send pictures of my horse and he could get me the right tree. |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | I shimmed my horse when I first got my saddle. He is, for lack of a better word, pear shaped, LOL. He is also a tiny bit downhill.
He did fill in quite a bit in his atrophied areas. I have photos and maybe I will post them when I have time. He is 17, so realistically I wasn't expecting ANY fill in... I am pleasantly suprised. I bought a biofit pad and now I just use that without any shims. It is the older style Biofit with the rounded "shim" spots.
I have a Crown C, btw. I like it a lot. Not every saddle will fit every horse or rider....find what works for you.... No need to trash any maker. Not every product is for every person or horse.
BTW, I have only been riding in the saddle since mid-march, and I have noticed "fill-in"
To each his own, but I don't think shimming is a scam.
Edited by barrelracr131 2014-05-12 1:37 PM
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | barrelracr131 - 2014-05-12 1:35 PM I shimmed my horse when I first got my saddle. He is, for lack of a better word, pear shaped, LOL. He is also a tiny bit downhill.
He did fill in quite a bit in his atrophied areas. I have photos and maybe I will post them when I have time. He is 17, so realistically I wasn't expecting ANY fill in... I am pleasantly suprised. I bought a biofit pad and now I just use that without any shims. It is the older style Biofit with the rounded "shim" spots.
I have a Crown C, btw. I like it a lot. Not every saddle will fit every horse or rider....find what works for you.... No need to trash any maker. Not every product is for every person or horse.
BTW, I have only been riding in the saddle since mid-march, and I have noticed "fill-in"
To each his own, but I don't think shimming is a scam.
I would love to see pics of the changes!! |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Let me see if I can upload them.... I'm not sure how clear it will be because I am using an iphone camera lol |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Before (this was in February). Ignore the "rubs" on his loin... they were from his blankets. He was not really being ridden at the time.
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | After- this was a few weeks ago. The change isn't huge, but I do notice a difference.
I think it is easier to feel than to see, but hope you guys can notice the difference too. Especially behind and on top of his shoulder.
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Thanks for posting! I can a little bit of a difference, but I have zero experience with trying to regenerate muscles!
He's much wider than my guy, may I ask what gullet he started out in? |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | I made this really fast with paint, but maybe it can help show where he is filling in a bit
ok, now I cannot get it to work lol
Edited by barrelracr131 2014-05-12 3:00 PM
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Longneck - 2014-05-12 2:55 PM Thanks for posting! I can a little bit of a difference, but I have zero experience with trying to regenerate muscles!
He's much wider than my guy, may I ask what gullet he started out in?
I am in the same boat. I test rode an 8" and bought an 8.5". I don't think he will fill out much more if at all, so as his shoulder fills in, I hope to just shim less. We shall see.
I am honestly suprised there is any difference. It is subtle but I can feel it more than the photos show. Especially since it has been like a month and a half.
Prior to this I had a Billy Cook that I think was pinching him. I am def not a saddle fit expert, so take this for what you will. lol |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | I will be switching from my Billy Cook as well. It fit my other horses really well, but this new horse is completely different! |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Bumping this up because I found a better "before" picture that shows his atrophy more.
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | barrelracr131 - 2014-05-13 10:29 AM Bumping this up because I found a better "before" picture that shows his atrophy more.
This looks more like my gelding currently! |
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 Veteran
Posts: 216
Location: SC/Ga line |
If this horse was standing square there is a major difference in the left and right shoulder. I would suggest body work like www.holistichorseworks.com etc. |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | He's not really... you can see his head is dropped to the right as he's prob untying himself. lol
ETA: I take that back, he's eating my coat...
Edited by barrelracr131 2014-05-15 10:42 AM
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Rocket/Crown C/Pozzi