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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
  
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | ...know it's for a worthy cause! Lol...enjoyed a beautiful day yesterday riding a previously closed (not lawfully, it was a 'discrecionary closure' by a BLM supervisor, real road closures require an act of congress) on my 'mule' by kawasaki! My mother & father rode with me along with a few people who had no 'ride', husband & son rode their own atv's. I'm surprised at the media attention this is getting...not surprised at how biased and full of lies the reporting is. We were not armed, there were no federal law enforcement there that was willing to advertise...that shows that they are NOT law enforcement...otherwise they would certainly wear there badge, uniform & weapons with pride & and been handing out tickets. Four (that I know of) Sheriff's departments were there on horseback so they could get off the road and watch, they were very nice & supportive of our ride. Nobody did anything illegal nor were we destsructive in any way or rude.
This road is one of the oldest in the county & if you see any pictures please note the condition of the road, it's not a trail...we have so many 1,000's of anasazi ruins as they lived in every crevice, cave and on every mesa around. You cannot avoid the ruins. They mysteriously disappeared & when the first pioneers arrived here they would find beautiful bowls & other things they left behind. There were many...still are. A lot of people collected these artifacts, displayed them in their homes & even created a 'market' and fed their families by selling them. Of course, this became illegal when the Antiquities Act was passed in 1906 which gave the government the sole right to these items...hence creating a 'blackmarket' and yet another tax drain in the form of archeology. That's not to mention the control that has gotten out of hand...it's truly amazing the amount of money that goes into the hands of hobbyists!
I've never personally been interested in artifacts so don't know very much about them, I've always enjoyed imagining how people could live & raise families in the cliffs, though. I'd really like for people to visualize for a moment how much land here has some sort of past habitation & how it's now impacting the lives of the current habitants. Regardless of how we came to be here...we're here now. When I first moved to Mexican Hat in 1979 (I'm 4th & 5th generation in the area) there were only a few things we had available to us for recreation & fun...mostly the river. We had a raft & would spend as many hot days as we could enjoying the river...we needed no permits then. 12 miles from here we have a mesa that's 1200' higher in elevation....Cedar Mesa...great place to escape the heat, camp, gather wood, pinon nuts & later to trail ride. And old roads, mostly mining & oil...this is very rocky country with a lot of canyons, a few people had dune buggies and the rest of us couldn't wait for the day when we could afford such a toy! Horses were lacking in my life in the early days here, too as you must feed every single bite...very pricey & impossible for me at that time.
We live here even though we must travel long distances for food, for supplies...for any kind of shopping or social life. We live here for the wide open spaces. A certain freedom from the noise, a place we appreciate & love with all we have.
Then one day we could no longer float the river without a permit, which became a 2 year wait.
Cedar Mesa was closed to motorized vehicles. Parts of it, the most beautiful canyon, was declared a Primitive Area.
Another million or so acres were put into a Wilderness Study Area (this about 2 miles from my home).
The world we left behind had found us.
What we held dear was now out of our reach. We have become criminals in the eyes of many.
The ride I participated in yesterday was no more than a sincere effort to re-establish our place in this world, in our own backyards. To be such a small faction with no voice is frustrating & tiring. To see what we love ruined & mismanaged by complete outsiders whose only desire is to make money & gain control is dis-heartening. And we're outnumbered. We're such a small group.
We appreciated that Ryan Bundy, his family & a few of his 'entourage' came to support us. They're a very pleasant & knowledgable bunch. They handed out pocket Constitutions, visited & rode with us. All I can say is that there's a lot the masses don't know about the Bundy standoff or the San Juan County Recapture ride as we're all spoon-fed our information from the media...believe me, they spin it, lie & ignore the truth.
They're using the Native Americans which is disgusting & racist. We're all Americans & no one race is in total agreement with each other on these issues! I don't know of one that feels the way the media says! Not one & I know many. This is not a race issue...it seemed to work for them concerning the Bundy's, will we continue to let them use the race card to further divide us? It's crazy.
The road we traversed is NOT built over burial grounds nor does it go through any ruins...all of the ruins are built up in the cliffs, the trail is in the bottom of the canyon. The ruins are small and scattered...I've read where some say this canyon is akin to Mesa Verde! Whoever says that is lying...this canyon skirts the edge of town (Blanding), it's literally the back yard of many properties there.
Anyhow, if you made it this far...thanks! Just wanting to educate those who may be interested in truth.
BTW: I hear we'll be getting our 'permits' in the mail...with pictures! Lol.
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Sideways Riding Expert
Posts: 11371
  
Location: ND--it snows, it floods, it snows, it floods | So my question is what is underneath the rocks and dirt that someone wants???? | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | docschic - 2014-05-11 11:01 AM So my question is what is underneath the rocks and dirt that someone wants????
The locals rode for access....nothing else. There is a water pipe that was installed years ago & is still used that belongs to the city...right in the middle of their 'pristine' canyon.
People used to drive pickups through this canyon....it was once the only access from the lower end of the county to the upper, everyone used it for that including the anasazi. It's just a land grab by the environmentalists/gov't.
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Cold hands and Warm Heart
Location: oklahoma | It's been nice knowing you!
j/k
things like this burn my butt and all roads, ( no pun)like these, lead back to greed. Back in the late 70's, my parents pulled our airstream back to some remote land in New Mexico next to a stream. There was an old log cabin, abandoned and we even had to heat our water by campfire to take baths, etc. The only traffic we saw all week up there was logging trucks. We returned two years later to find that it'd been made into a campground with full amenities. Stories like this sadden me. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | What a bunch of BS.
I really feel the government wants to round us all up and for us to live in cities as they then would feel they have better control but if they look at Chicago they would see what living like rats can do to people and they sure don't have any control of that situation. | |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | I read that first thing this morning. And, I wondered if you were involved. Our government is crazy to say the least. Hope that they don't bother you. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | What was really interesting is that none of knew 'if, when or where' we entered the closed portion as the only sign I saw was about 20 feet from the road (it wasn't a closed road sign) & there were pickups & jeeps parked where you couldn't get close to read it completely or turn around...we asked where the road closed & was told it was further down...we were happily waved through...lmao...come to find out it was the' Friends of Cedar Mesa' & probaably blm rangers that told us that...probably set us up! Our own fault of course...but, now they're threatening $1,000 fine per person, lose our 'toys' and 1 year in prison. I can't say whether I would have continued if I had know where their 'line' was...I had no choice anyhow as we were ALL funneled through.
Prison for my family alone would effectively close down 2 motels & 2 restaurants, more than half our town! Which I would do...just close it. No tax base. No income tax. No jobs. AND...I'll work out the fine in prison, too.
The fed is flexing their muscle & looking to make examples out of us...and they probably will. I was reading some 'comments' on a few sites & could not believe that some recommended the fed "go Waco on them"...just kill us. And they call US radical?!
I hope none of us live to regret our 'civil disobedience' to an ever growing gov't intent on 'winning' against the people...I just don't get that part of it. How the citizens became the enemy & vice versa. How we've allowed that to happen. I cannot grasp that artifacts are more important than real, live, people. They leave us no option except to protest...and we did it peacefully. Respectfully.
God Bless.
Edited by musikmaker 2014-05-11 6:43 PM
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | What keywords do I need to use to search for info? What I tried turned up nothing. | |
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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| I doubt you get a year in prison but I do hope they prosecute everyone involved.
Edited by TXBO 2014-05-11 4:03 PM
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | TXBO - 2014-05-11 2:53 PM I doubt you get a year in prison but I do hope the prosecute everyone involved.
I'm sure you do. I realize that a very small percentage of us are real patriots and willing to defend our rights...and yours. It's ok. I'm still not offended. I expected nothing else from the mob & you can rest assured that you have a lot of company from your safe viewpoint. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Three 4 Luck - 2014-05-11 2:53 PM What keywords do I need to use to search for info? What I tried turned up nothing.
I'll find some for you, they're mostly about the same...I gave a ride to a journalist from the Salt Lake Tribune & he said they were strict on what they'd allow him to say.
http://news.yahoo.com/dozens-protesters-ride-off-limits-canyon-215140976.html
http://news.yahoo.com/blm-faces-another-western-standoff-now-four-wheelers-180558903.html
http://news.yahoo.com/trail-ride-challenge-federal-control-utah-land-180825127--finance.html
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-utah-blm-bundy-protest-20140510-story.html
http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/05/10/jek-ohv-riders-militia-gather-protest-blm/#.U27tau9eN4Q.facebook
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| musikmaker - 2014-05-11 4:03 PM
TXBO - 2014-05-11 2:53 PM I doubt you get a year in prison but I do hope the prosecute everyone involved.
I'm sure you do. I realize that a very small percentage of us are real patriots and willing to defend our rights...and yours. It's ok. I'm still not offended. I expected nothing else from the mob & you can rest assured that you have a lot of company from your safe viewpoint.
LMAO! Patriot my azz. You're not defending my rights. You just got duped into supporting one special interest group unhappy that another special interest group got their way. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here's a really good one...uh huh. Look, I know most people have never been out here & can't fathom the vastness of the countryside...this is so overblown, the road is a road and has always been a road! They speak of the Natives as though they are one...and they certainly are not.
The reason the Natives stay clear of artifacts is because they're smarter than some...they know that the anasazi died of disease, and it's still there, in the backs of the caves, in the graves...on the artifacts themselves...they've been taught to stay away from them like many parents teach...like the 'boogie man'.
It's nothing else...nothing 'spiritual', most haven't bought into Hollywood bs.
I'm going to share 2 things...this one is from 2006, the group who pushed for the closure: (TXBO...you may not be a Great Old Broad, but, they will accept your $$...afterall, that's all it's really about). They claim some things that they cannot prove, btw...
In the fall of 2006, Great Old Broads was contacted by Lynell Schalk, a retired Bureau of Land Management (BLM) Special Agent, now residing in Bluff, Utah, regarding a number of illegally constructed ATV routes on BLM land in San Juan County, Utah. She had been observing and recording these illegal activities on her own since early 2006, and contacted Broads for assistance with the egregious situation because of our Broads Healthy Lands Project (BHLP) off-road vehicle monitoring program.
Broads staff traveled to Utah, hiked into Recapture Wash and other places, and, using the monitoring methods of BHLP, recorded evidence of unauthorized route construction (cut trees, bladed trails, culverts, bridges, rock cribbing, stiles over fences, etc.). Of particular concern was a route built into Recapture Wash that now provides direct motorized access from Blanding, Utah. Recapture Wash contains over 30 recently documented archaeological sites. Prior to the construction of this route, vehicular access was very difficult, but it is now easily accessed by ATVs, and the route runs through and near numerous archaeological sites. Another area of concern is the recent construction on the San Juan Hill portion of the historic Mormon Hole-In-The-Rock Trail, which is on the National Register of Historic Places.
Despite attempts by the public to get accurate information on what is occurring, the BLM, in numerous instances, has given incomplete and less than accurate information, has attempted to “cover up” and legitimize these illegal activities, and is receiving considerable pressure from San Juan County and SPEAR (San Juan Public Entry and Access Rights), the local ATV organization, to acquiesce to their demands. Needless to say, Broads is disturbed at the renegade nature of these activities on public lands. We are working in partnership with SUWA (Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance), which is providing legal assistance and grassroots organizing expertise, to stop illegal activity on these lands. A new local group, the Canyon Country Heritage Association, has recently formed in Bluff in response to these and other issues concerning our public lands and is applying pressure on San Juan County and the BLM as well.
Recapture Wash—two years ago there was no trail or route here, only a steep slope.
While the actual builders of the routes are supposedly unknown, SPEAR, which has installed route signs and done trail related maintenance legally as BLM volunteers, has also been observed by the BLM doing illegal trail work. The Monticello Field Office of the BLM has been all too eager to accommodate SPEAR and the San Juan County Commission, to the point that it intends to give permanent rights-of-way to San Juan County for these ATV routes.
SPEAR and San Juan County also intend to build and/or connect hundreds of miles of routes in a county-wide “Canyon Rims Trail System” using county “mapped and claimed” roads that have not been adjudicated. Many of these proposed ATV routes would be in areas now closed by the BLM to motorized use or in Wilderness Study Areas, and this whole county is fragile high desert, and subject to extreme damage from poorly managed motorized use. The county arguably contains the highest density of archaeological sites in Utah, if not in the country, and the number one threat to this resource is the increased motorized access, which is precisely what this system would provide.
The Monticello BLM is in the process of revising its Resource Management Plan and is supposed to complete a Travel Plan. Rather than fulfill its past promises to defer ATV route decisions to the travel planning process, the BLM is considering requests one by one from San Juan County for “connector” trail rights-of-way. This type of decision-making could bypass the National Environmental Planning Act (NEPA) requirements for considering cumulative impacts of proposed actions. The BLM will not (or cannot) provide the interested public with maps of the routes that are being connected. There also is complete disregard for federal law, departmental policy, the agency’s own land use plans and the public review process. There is failure to abide by requirements of the National Historic Preservation Act (NHPA), the Archaeological Protection Act (ARPA), the Federal Lands Policy and Management Act (FLPMA), and the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).
In late April, Broads is planning a Recapture Utah! Monitoring Event to train volunteer monitors and gather baseline data on the route construction and proposed routes. We will gather important information and help engage local citizens in the effort to hold their public officials accountable for appropriate and legal land management. The resulting information will be used to support legal and procedural challenges to the BLM and to raise public awareness of the imminent threats to this special place. While everyone has the right to access our public lands, no one has the right to damage irreplaceable resources or to take actions that violate established laws and regulations.
Call or write your Congressional representatives and ask them to hold the BLM accountable in Utah. Ask them to also co-sponsor America’s Redrock Wilderness Act.
this is from the Deseret News, it's all over the place and not accurate, but, again, it convinces outsiders who don't know any better that we're monsters intent on destruction.
BLANDING — Utah was once again the contentious stage for people taking a stand over what happens on public lands, when a fervent few dozen off-roaders embarked on an illegal ride Saturday into San Juan County's Recapture Canyon.
In 2008, it was Timothy DeChristopher who broke a federal law over what he feared would happen on land outside of national parks — drilling for oil and natural gas.
Six years later, it is a San Juan County commissioner who organized an illegal ATV ride to vent their frustration over what isn't happening — access.
DeChristopher was convicted for monkeywrenching a Bureau of Land Management oil and gas lease auction and sent to federal prison.
San Juan County Commissioner Phil Lyman ultimately urged riders to avoid illegal portions of the land Saturday, arguing that the ride had achieved its goal in raising awareness. Still, a bunch of ATV enthusiasts flouted federal trespassing laws and ventured into banned areas.
Juan Palma, Utah director of the BLM, said agents noted the illegal activity on the closed ATV trail and the agency will pursue applicable charges.
"We know from the archaeological record left behind in Recapture Canyon that the area was previously occupied for at least 2,000 years," Palma said in a statement. "Illegal ATV use within Recapture Canyon may have damaged many of these archaeological resources — all of which hold the history and tell the story of the first farmers in the Four Corners region."
The ride was organized by Lyman in protest of what he says is the agonizingly slow decision-making process of the BLM. The county is seeking right-of-way for a recreational trail in Recapture Canyon — a process that began more than seven years ago.
"People are hugely frustrated," said San Juan County Commissioner Bruce Adams. ATV trail closures, the threatened listing of the Gunnison sage grouse and a county with only 10 percent of its lands in private or state ownership is leaving residents and officials feeling pinched by the federal government at every turn, he added.
"People are ready to draw a line in the sand, they're ready to push back."
This latest tempest in the West over federal land management policies drew a sympathetic audience with the Cliven Bundy family, who went toe to toe with BLM officials last month over unpaid grazing fees and a threat to seize their cattle.
Ryan Bundy, Cliven's son, made the drive from the family's southern Nevada ranch to lend Lyman his moral support, and rev up the crowd in the process.
Depite Lyman's urging to ride where it was legal to do so, Ryan Bundy rode in a prohibited portion of the land. He said staying where it was legal to ride defeated the purpose of the protest.
"Doing that accomplishes nothing," he said. "It basically shows cowardice to the federal government, toward the Bureau of Land Management. If we're here to make a stand, then for heaven's sake, let's make a stand."
Cade Lewis also participated in the ride Saturday and opted to go onto illegal land.
"That's what we're here for, is to do the hard things and stand up and do what's right — and tell the federal government we've had enough," Lewis said.
San Juan County Sheriff Rick Eldridge said deputies from three counties were present Saturday, but focused on keeping the peace, not enforcing any boundaries.
"Any citations, that will come from the BLM," Eldridge said. "They're the ones that closed the road."
Some people who planned to attend the rally at Blanding's Centennial Park and observe the ride afterward decided to stay away.
"There was a small cadre of folks who know the canyon well and have been actively involved in garnering the limited protection it has with the closure," said Rose Chilcoat, associate director of the Great Old Broads for Wilderness. "We did not want to come to be part of the rally but to be a witness, to be a voice for the canyon and the values of the canyon."
She said news that Bundy-associated militia were going to show up led her to cancel their attendance.
"These people are nothing more than domestic terrorists. They are anarchists and are bringing violence to our streets. It is time for the FBI and U.S. marshals to step in. ... One stray bullet could be a tragedy and we just don’t need that."
The 11-mile Recapture Canyon trail was closed to motorized access in 2007 by the BLM. Critics says the closure was arbitrary and unnecessary, thwarting the review process BLM must go through under the National Environmental Policy Act. Groups supporting the closure said the agency had to act swiftly because of the illegal road improvements that were tearing up the canyon and causing irreparable damage to precious Anasazi resources.
“Vehicle damage to vegetation and riparian areas can be repaired over time. Damage to archaeological sites is permanent and the information about our collective past is then lost forever,” said Jerry Spangler, executive director of the Colorado Plateau Archaeological Alliance, a Utah-based organization that advocates for the protection of archaeological sites on public lands.
Spangler said the Recapture Canyon trail passes through six nationally significant archaeological sites that include residences and storage structures, as well as three religious structures known as kivas.
The canyon, he added, has "tremendous" spiritual significance to Puebloan groups such as Hopi and Zuni and to the Navajo.
"(The ride) is nothing short of a slap in the face to Native Americans who treasure the cultural resources of that canyon as part of their past and present," he said.
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| TXBO - 2014-05-11 4:20 PM
musikmaker - 2014-05-11 4:03 PM
TXBO - 2014-05-11 2:53 PM I doubt you get a year in prison but I do hope the prosecute everyone involved.
I'm sure you do. I realize that a very small percentage of us are real patriots and willing to defend our rights...and yours. It's ok. I'm still not offended. I expected nothing else from the mob & you can rest assured that you have a lot of company from your safe viewpoint.
LMAO! Patriot my azz. You're not defending my rights. You just got duped into supporting one special interest group unhappy that another special interest group got their way.
Please stay in texas | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Itsme - 2014-05-11 3:39 PM TXBO - 2014-05-11 4:20 PM musikmaker - 2014-05-11 4:03 PM TXBO - 2014-05-11 2:53 PM I doubt you get a year in prison but I do hope the prosecute everyone involved. I'm sure you do. I realize that a very small percentage of us are real patriots and willing to defend our rights...and yours. It's ok. I'm still not offended. I expected nothing else from the mob & you can rest assured that you have a lot of company from your safe viewpoint. LMAO! Patriot my azz. You're not defending my rights. You just got duped into supporting one special interest group unhappy that another special interest group got their way. Please stay in texas
No kidding!
TXBO: I'm sure you're right Oh Mighty One...I should have asked your advice before I joined a losing movement as I'm sure you would have said to always choose the winner, makes ya look better to belong to the mob...makes ya feel better inside to 'be-long'. Even if it's wrong in the long run, it feels good now!
This isn't about gov't overreach or intrusion, this isn't about the waste of our tax $$'s supporting those who the gov't deem ok to dig up & study dead people from long ago, they're a resource you know:re·source noun \'re-?so?rs, -?zo?rs, ri-'\ : something that a country has and can use to increase its wealth
: a supply of something (such as money) that someone has and can use when it is needed
: a place or thing that provides something useful
As I said before, it's always about the money...that's the only usefulness of these artifacts...God forbid an atv provide easy access to these gov't resources...this is the playground for the government-certified-to-dig-hiker only....all others stay out. Lol...you don't live here, you have no clue. You have no opinion, you can't. It's impossible to have an opinion without the facts & that would require more than your travels have taken you so far.pa·tri·ot noun \'pa-tre-?t, -?ät, chiefly British 'pa-tre-?t\ : a person who loves and strongly supports or fights for his or her country
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Expert
Posts: 1255
| I'm not impressed with anyone who works for the government I live close to the boarder so I've been detained three times because they said they had reason to be leave I was transporting substance lol The last time they held me for over an hour because I had hay in my hair and on the car seat,he kept pulling stuff out of my hair and asking where the rest of it was and I couldn't even respond all I could think was this is the typ of person they hire? Then the was another time I was going at highspeed down our road
and an agent suddenly turns the truck in front of me so I had to go off road to keep from hitting her then I back up to see if they were o.k and they said they stopped me to ask if I'm a u.s citizen
Edited by myhre 2014-05-11 6:12 PM
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 Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| I will come and get you. Stories like this flipping kill me. You are facing this when just this morning five illegals were walking down my street and NOBODY said a word.
Also hubby got p'oed at me b/c his brother is a cop and chewed my rear b/c my coyote dog killed a red tail hawk and it was in MY yard. I had a feather in my display case and big bro had a fit. I told him. "Take my feather and see what happens." I'm sick and tired of the B.S.
Joke is on my hubby's bro though because Rollingfarm told me it's probably turkey. So if you can go to jail for riding in land that your tax dollars paid for I guess I can go to jail for my unclassified feather.
Jerks. Meanwhile Pedro and Sancho run freeeeeee
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 Veteran
Posts: 292
Location: Northeast Nebraska | docschic - 2014-05-11 12:01 PM So my question is what is underneath the rocks and dirt that someone wants????
There doesn't have to be anything. A commie, tyrannical government abuses it's power just because it can. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 292
Location: Northeast Nebraska | TXBO - 2014-05-11 3:53 PM I doubt you get a year in prison but I do hope they prosecute everyone involved.
Are you for tatoos and internment camps too? Because that is where tyranny ALWAYS leads. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | GoGaited - 2014-05-11 5:40 PM TXBO - 2014-05-11 3:53 PM I doubt you get a year in prison but I do hope they prosecute everyone involved.
Are you for tatoos and internment camps too? Because that is where tyranny ALWAYS leads.
Yup. That sentence really says a lot of humanity..."I hope they prosecute all involved". Weird. I'm still not sure what I was 'involved' in that deserves prosecution? I can see it now, "So, what you in here for, girl?"..."Well, um...I rode an atv on an old dirt road".
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR |
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 Expert
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Location: home for the winter...what a dumb idea | I am confused.... According to what I read in the links you provided and others the land was still open to horses and back packers. So why not just enjoy the land that way? I am sure you and you friends would never damage or hurt the land but please don't think others would not. ATV tare the land up make access to treasure hunters easier. There are lots of people who will take things from those Indian ruins and not look back or worry about some sickness they will sell them for $$ and go back for more. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Rodeo_cowgirl - 2014-05-11 9:17 PM I am confused.... According to what I read in the links you provided and others the land was still open to horses and back packers. So why not just enjoy the land that way? I am sure you and you friends would never damage or hurt the land but please don't think others would not. ATV tare the land up make access to treasure hunters easier. There are lots of people who will take things from those Indian ruins and not look back or worry about some sickness they will sell them for $$ and go back for more.
Because the locals want it open to atv's for easy access for everyone, including those not able to walk or ride horses. We have been fighting for 'multiple use'...and this is an old road, one that was used often...how does an outside entity close a road next to a small town? What business is it of theirs?
Locks only keep honest people out...I know some people hate atv's...oh well, others hate horses, open spaces, cities...etc...
When the fed enforces the law concerning marijuana...then maybe I'll believe they can enforce other laws, however, remember that this road closure wasn't lawfully closed...it was a blm supervisor who had college students go around and put up closed signs at his own discretion.
We can't all be held hostage over artifacts...it's like the entire kindergarten class losing recess because one little kid was a jerk!
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1182
Location: Do I hear Banjos? | We are having similar issues here in Arkansas in the Ouachita National Forest. For many many years there were trails all throughout this area. Combinations of old logging roads and other trails. Folks could hike, ride horses, and yes...ATV's. The users kept the trails open and passable and clean. Hunters used them to gain better access to areas to deer hunt etc. All was happy in the land. Sure there are always jerks that leave trash etc. But those were BY FAR the minority and living out here the folks that we saw dumping trash were folks driving out in cars from the city to dump stuff. We sure have picked up a lot of trash. But we do it to help keep things nice.
Then suddenly the Forest Service (the feds)...decided that we wouldn't be allowed to riude ATV's on the roads or trails any more. Just a few small strips of road that made no sense and made it essentially impossible. And some roads were even closed to vehicles for certain months of the year. Only open in the winter...when it's most likely to be wet/muddy and get torn up...which makes NO sense.
There are NO ancient ruins...no special flora or fauna cited as the reason. The did it because they can. To preserve the forest. Ok...then WHY do they allow the lumber companys to come clear cut out here??? To re-plant only pines and destroy the natural ecosystem? Money...that's why.
Now those of us that do ride horses can't even use the trails very much. There aren't enough folks riding and using the trails and so they get overgrown. Trees fall and we can't carry chainsaws very well on horseback. We are gradually losing the trails. Which...I guess was their intent all along.
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Good for you guys! But... now you are probably on the FBI target list. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Whiteboy - 2014-05-12 8:26 AM Good for you guys! But... now you are probably on the FBI target list.
Naw...surely not. Lol...thing is, I didn't see anyone do anything illegal, immoral, destructive or rude!
I really have a question about federal laws if anyone can answer:
How is it that it's against federal law to use marijuana, yet, 2 states have legalized it?
All this talk of federal law trumping state law...do we just pick & choose?
Trail girl...good luck, the power base is changing in America.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 629
Location: Roping pen | No idea in your area, but here, the county maintains a record book of legal county roads. If this road is in this book, only way to close it, is by act of the county commission.
This book is in the recorders/land office in the local court house.
Counties get federal funding for the miles of county roads it has. We have roads here that haven't "been a road" for 100 years, but still on the books as a legal road so we can get more federal money. By law, these roads are open for the public's use. Might have to open a lot of gates to use them, but they are legal access.
As far as the ATV deal, we have had the same issue here. A few ruining it for all by driving off of the trail.
Edited by Spin Doctor 2014-05-12 10:55 AM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85.... | |
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 Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | CrossDRanch - 2014-05-12 11:04 AM If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85....
Trespassing comes to mind. Which is illegal. Also, I would inform the County Sherriff and see what He/She has to say in regards to Private Property. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Spin Doctor - 2014-05-12 9:53 AM No idea in your area, but here, the county maintains a record book of legal county roads. If this road is in this book, only way to close it, is by act of the county commission. This book is in the recorders/land office in the local court house. Counties get federal funding for the miles of county roads it has. We have roads here that haven't "been a road" for 100 years, but still on the books as a legal road so we can get more federal money. By law, these roads are open for the public's use. Might have to open a lot of gates to use them, but they are legal access. As far as the ATV deal, we have had the same issue here. A few ruining it for all by driving off of the trail.
Never heard of that here. The county keeps records, thing is, a blm supervisor decided on his own to close this road (discrecionary closure), they do a lot of that here, so it's not a 'law' it was a temporary closure so they could 'investigate' it. For 7 years! The 2 men who fixed the road in 2006 were charged a $35k fine apiece (!), what they did was move some small rocks a build a bridge out of metal so the atv's could go over the creek instead of through it, it was supposed to be an improvement. They did not build a new road as some think.
Who was in office in 2006? The enviros weren't getting heard as much. The real problem is that each administration appoints whoever they want to further an agenda...a political agenda, not a public or constitutional agenda...it's nothing more than salt in a wound with each 'change', back to the drawing board...justification for pitting us against each other & lining pockets. It's sickening.
We the people are the losers here. All of us.
The USGS & GLO were once answerable to Congress, they were both created to handle the purchase of land by the U.S. gov't...the GLO eventually became the BLM (1946) and was moved under the Dept. of Interior which is not answerable to Congress or the people. Once a state was formed then the 'territorial land within' became part of the state...it was no longer a territory! THIS is what people can't process...we have no territorial land any longer. All jurisdiction & authority lies with the county & state. We've been intimidated & lied to.
It's no different than a policeman asking to search your vehicle...he can do this if you allow it, you can also say "No". We're simply...finally...saying "No".
Nobody broke any laws.
Bundy's are in a similar situation as far as requesting a final determination on jurisdiction. Believe me, they planned for this for many years as it's not been possible for the people to get this info out there & in the proper courts...of course, we all know now how the media led them to slaughter with the 'racist' comment that was taken out of context...the damage was done, but, many of us still support the original complaint against the fed. Even if they were racist (they arent) that wouldn't strip them of their Constitutional Rights...or would it?
Don't forget the 1st Amendment Zone that the fed created in Nevada...as if it's still territorial land. What happens out here will have a huge impact on the rest of the world....what we lose everyone loses...
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | foundation horse - 2014-05-12 10:18 AM CrossDRanch - 2014-05-12 11:04 AM If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85.... Trespassing comes to mind. Which is illegal. Also, I would inform the County Sherriff and see what He/She has to say in regards to Private Property.
I'm with FH. | |
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Grammar Expert
| So, what did the protest get you?
I understand where you are coming from - I grew up in California riding my horses and dirt bikes on trails and in the riverbed, etc., and it was awesome. And then hundreds of other people did the same thing I did and ruined it because an area can only support so much "recreation."
I've been reading Storm over Rangelands and it's almost changing my mind - and I say almost - because everything changes, everything. Including the "public" lands, which activists are basically in charge of right now. I think your time and energy would have been better spent taking your ATVs to the State Capitol and asking your representatives for their time. If I'm not mistaken, Utah is already taking the BLM to court over federal land - no? So, back them up, go to them, support them, but just breaking the law for any reason is just what the Occupiers did in many cities and I recall many of you on here up in arms about those nasty, filthy law breakers...............??
I would love to see more lands open. Where were we when they shut them down in the first place? Have we been as active as the activists? I doubt it, since most of us work for a living.
Your comment about people taking relics from ancient sites and selling them and supporting their family doing so is like a quaint little story from the 30s but the facts are that people aren't the same as they were in the 30s, they will tear stuff up to get to it, tear it up to get it out of the ground and then sell it to make a profit, not feed six children. Life is different.
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Grammar Expert
| I also don't know any trail that will be open to ATVs AND Horses and frankly I wouldn't want to come around a corner and meet an ATV going to fast and freaking out my horse or if I were on the ATV I wouldn't want to do that to someone else. ATVs are very destructive, I don't even like riding them on my own property very often. | |
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Grammar Expert
| CrossDRanch - 2014-05-12 10:04 AM If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85....
They are likely trying to determine damage to soil via chemicals and whatever was used at the wood treatment plant and how far the damage has spread. I would think you would WANT them there to test it and let you know.
Or do you think it's more sinister than that? | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | smiley - 2014-05-12 11:56 AM So, what did the protest get you?
I understand where you are coming from - I grew up in California riding my horses and dirt bikes on trails and in the riverbed, etc., and it was awesome. And then hundreds of other people did the same thing I did and ruined it because an area can only support so much "recreation."
I've been reading Storm over Rangelands and it's almost changing my mind - and I say almost - because everything changes, everything. Including the "public" lands, which activists are basically in charge of right now. I think your time and energy would have been better spent taking your ATVs to the State Capitol and asking your representatives for their time. If I'm not mistaken, Utah is already taking the BLM to court over federal land - no? So, back them up, go to them, support them, but just breaking the law for any reason is just what the Occupiers did in many cities and I recall many of you on here up in arms about those nasty, filthy law breakers...............??
I would love to see more lands open. Where were we when they shut them down in the first place? Have we been as active as the activists? I doubt it, since most of us work for a living.
Your comment about people taking relics from ancient sites and selling them and supporting their family doing so is like a quaint little story from the 30s but the facts are that people aren't the same as they were in the 30s, they will tear stuff up to get to it, tear it up to get it out of the ground and then sell it to make a profit, not feed six children. Life is different.
For the first time in my life people are reading the Constitution, they're studying our history, trying to understand the role of our gov't in our lives...this is what these protests are 'getting us'. The schools sure aren't teaching it.
It's a sad day in Amerika when we find we've become a real time "Survivor!" show with 'alliances' and such. Here's an info piece from a friend that explains the local mind set & what we've been up against:
http://thepetroglyph.com/blm-director-juan-palma-is-biased-incompetent-and-negligent/
This has been going on for 7 years....the blm won't move forward.
Please know that we no longer have 'territorial lands'...this muscle flexing by the fed is just fear tactics, they have no jurisdiction, otherwise I'm pretty sure they would have shown a strong presence in that canyon, writing tickets, arresting us, wearing uniforms, badges & guns.
Here's an article from yesterday...that's me & my folks on the mule, hubby on a 4-wheeler behind us...funny. The comments are interesting, too...more & more of us are sick & tired of the gov't declaring war on the people.
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=29864364&nid=148
Edited by musikmaker 2014-05-13 9:07 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | smiley - 2014-05-12 1:01 PM
CrossDRanch - 2014-05-12 10:04 AM If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85....
They are likely trying to determine damage to soil via chemicals and whatever was used at the wood treatment plant and how far the damage has spread. I would think you would WANT them there to test it and let you know.
Or do you think it's more sinister than that?
That would be great if they came in test our soil and water and cleaned up the mess. But it never seems to work that way.... Always seems that property gets fenced off, or I am told I have to pay for the clean up, etc. Meanwhile, the govt agency is in charge of our water supply, and my tap water looks like I scooped it out of the pond. | |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Any charges yet?!
Edited by Whiteboy 2014-05-13 10:59 AM
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | CrossDRanch - 2014-05-13 9:31 AM smiley - 2014-05-12 1:01 PM CrossDRanch - 2014-05-12 10:04 AM If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85.... They are likely trying to determine damage to soil via chemicals and whatever was used at the wood treatment plant and how far the damage has spread. I would think you would WANT them there to test it and let you know.
Or do you think it's more sinister than that? That would be great if they came in test our soil and water and cleaned up the mess. But it never seems to work that way.... Always seems that property gets fenced off, or I am told I have to pay for the clean up, etc. Meanwhile, the govt agency is in charge of our water supply, and my tap water looks like I scooped it out of the pond.
Why am I not surprised in regards to the TCEQ's Behavior. This State Environmental Agency does not have the best of reputations. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 101
Location: would like to be where it does not snow | The BLM and the so called government of the once United States is on a power control mission most certainly in the Western part of the country. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Whiteboy - 2014-05-13 9:58 AM Any charges yet?!
Not yet...they're sure threatening to...on the news. If they were a real law enforcement agency they would have done it there. It's just posturing. Idk...I think I'll choose to sit any fine out in jail. I hope everyone does...that is IF they can prove jurisdiction, which, I don't believe they can.
I've read quite a few of the news articles & they differ so much...change, add drama and lies daily....it looks by most comments that people are seeing that, too.
We have a county master plan that must be taken into consideration when it comes to land management...so it might be a costly & drawn out thing, but, we'll win in the long run...in the meantime, I believe we should continue 'hunting' vs being 'hunted'...any takers??? Lol...grap your guts on the way out the door!
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Veteran
Posts: 292
Location: Northeast Nebraska | smiley - 2014-05-12 1:01 PM CrossDRanch - 2014-05-12 10:04 AM If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85.... They are likely trying to determine damage to soil via chemicals and whatever was used at the wood treatment plant and how far the damage has spread. I would think you would WANT them there to test it and let you know.
Or do you think it's more sinister than that?
It's the government forcing you to do something. Of course it's more sinister than that. And if they deem it contaminated, will the company that caused the pollution be forced to clean it up? Oh hell no, the homeowner will be forced to leave and their property emminent domaigned. Count on it. | |
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If I end up in jail....