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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 561
 
Location: somewhere in the south | I have a gelding that is , I guess you would say cinchy, BUT what happens is totally involuntary. If you happen to get him a little too tight too quickly, he just falls down and lays there, frozen! And Lord help me if he's tied, then it looks as if he's hanging himself! I am usually very careful how I cinch him up and all is good but at a show this weekend, I pulled the cinch up close, not even snug yet, turned my back and he fell out! Lucky I wasn't standing next to him! We got the lead undone and then the offbillet and finally, after about a minute he jumped up like "What"???? I redid everything and walked him, cinched, walked, cinched and all was good but I was really nervous about it all! Any info, help, advice?????????? It was really scary, I felt so bad for him.  |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 667
| I had a horse that would do that.. his rib was out of place. Chiro put it back in a couple of times and he was good to go.
Hope it is that easy for you. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 561
Location: somewhere in the south | Thanks, I hope it is too!! |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
 
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I agree I would have a Chiro go over him. Thats scary when a horse just flips out on you for no reason that you know of. Had a horse that did this many years ago, if Chrio's were around back then like they are now I bet he could have been fixed. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 503
| If it's not a chiro or other medical issue, I've known a few horses to do this and the only fix was to boot 'em hard. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | LuckyNGG'sGirl - 2014-06-02 9:46 PM If it's not a chiro or other medical issue, I've known a few horses to do this and the only fix was to boot 'em hard.
What's boot'em hard mean?  |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| Would almost be willing to put money on Chiro. There is a nerve that runs over the wither and down behind the elbow (I believe). It basically is involuntary if he's out there. It's similar to the pressure point in out shoulders that can take you down if pinched right.
My old gelding had it happen, although only if you picked up one of his front feet while saddled. He almost fell on my sister once. Scary. |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| It could also be ulcers. There are several points you can check and one of them is under the stomach where the cinch goes. Go to you tube and there is a video from depaulo. I may have spelled it wrong. |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | OhMax - 2014-06-02 11:01 PM Would almost be willing to put money on Chiro. There is a nerve that runs over the wither and down behind the elbow (I believe). It basically is involuntary if he's out there. It's similar to the pressure point in out shoulders that can take you down if pinched right. My old gelding had it happen, although only if you picked up one of his front feet while saddled. He almost fell on my sister once. Scary. agreed, cant say that is why yours does it but it happens to some ..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2014-06-02 10:11 PM
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| A friends brand new horse did something similar because the saddle pinched... this was her reaction to pain. The minute that saddle got cinched up she froze, eyes rolled back in her head and she flipped over and hung herself from the rope. Cut her loose. Shes young so we thought maybe it was baby stuff, saddle her again, same reaction. The guy she bought him from came over and put his saddle on, cinched her up and she was fine. It just seemed to be her reaction to the pain? I guess it could have been nerve related but shes never done it since now that they put a good fitting saddle on her. |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I am thinking rib out too. My gelding did it when he was 4. He would sit down when I just barely pulled the cinch out. He did it twice, had a chiro out and he has never tried again. |
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas | See if he's breathing when you saddle him. It's kind of like playing possum. Some horses do it and some never do. I have had a few that did it, lol. Some blow up and hold their breath till they fall out, and others just feel the squeeze and "give up". Just cinch him lightly while he's untied and walk him in a little circle. He should be good to go. Then tighten the cinch gradually instead of all at once. Then... hope like heck that is the only quirk he ever has. :)
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 503
| Southtxponygirl - 2014-06-02 9:50 PM
LuckyNGG'sGirl - 2014-06-02 9:46 PM If it's not a chiro or other medical issue, I've known a few horses to do this and the only fix was to boot 'em hard.
What's boot'em hard mean?
Boot 'em hard to get their butt up and working! Though that's exactly what these horses didn't want to do, hence the dropping to the ground when saddled and cinched up. |
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Vagus Nerve. |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7268
| I had a mare that did this all the time. She was vet-checked and chiro'd - it was just "her." I never, EVER tied her while cinching and I ALWAYS walked her while I was cinching her up. It was just one of those "quirks" I had to deal with with her. |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Ribs. Possibly shoulder blade. Potentially combined with ulcers. A really good pick 'em and pop 'em Chiro can sort that out in one session... |
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 Concrete Queen
Posts: 1657
| LuckyNGG'sGirl - 2014-06-02 9:46 PM If it's not a chiro or other medical issue, I've known a few horses to do this and the only fix was to boot 'em hard. Actually this is exactly what a horse with this issue DOESN'T need! I owned one just like this. Its definatly a chiro issue along
with being "cinchy". After taking him to have chiro/accu done every time I saddled him I would start out by very lightly
tightening the cinch,,, then start walking him out,,,, all it took was about a minute to let him feel like he wasnt "feeling confined"
, then I could take him back to the trailer and tie him up. Unfortunatly its an issue that never went away,, but it was an issue that was
manageable. In no way did it make him a bad horse,,,, just an issue he had.
Edited by Supernel8 2014-06-03 10:38 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 561
Location: somewhere in the south | Thanks guys! I'm going to look into all of this because he is a great horse and takes the best care of me! Once snugged up and ridden you can tighten him more, no problem so I don't believe it's a reaction to not wanting to work. I will definitely check with my vet who does chiro and mention all the info related here! Anybody else that has any more info???
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | LuckyNGG'sGirl - 2014-06-02 11:34 PM Southtxponygirl - 2014-06-02 9:50 PM LuckyNGG'sGirl - 2014-06-02 9:46 PM If it's not a chiro or other medical issue, I've known a few horses to do this and the only fix was to boot 'em hard. What's boot'em hard mean? Boot 'em hard to get their butt up and working! Though that's exactly what these horses didn't want to do, hence the dropping to the ground when saddled and cinched up.
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 Playing the Waiting Game
Posts: 2304
| LuckyNGG'sGirl - 2014-06-02 9:46 PM If it's not a chiro or other medical issue, I've known a few horses to do this and the only fix was to boot 'em hard.
I don't agree with this at all... This horse sounds to be in pain... and booting him will only make him even more sore. I had a horse that did this out of the blue one day and then several days after. This also was before chiro's for horses... I turned him out for a couple weeks and he seemed to get over it. I still won't tighten my saddle all at once.... I do it in stages and so far haven't had the issue. BUT if I did I'd get them to a chiro soon. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 503
| Supernel8 - 2014-06-03 7:12 AM
LuckyNGG'sGirl - 2014-06-02 9:46 PM If it's not a chiro or other medical issue, I've known a few horses to do this and the only fix was to boot 'em hard. Actually this is exactly what a horse with this issue DOESN'T need! I owned one just like this. Its definatly a chiro issue along
with being "cinchy". After taking him to have chiro/accu done every time I saddled him I would start out by very lightly
tightening the cinch,,, then start walking him out,,,, all it took was about a minute to let him feel like he wasnt "feeling confined"
, then I could take him back to the trailer and tie him up. Unfortunatly its an issue that never went away,, but it was an issue that was
manageable. In no way did it make him a bad horse,,,, just an issue he had.
Hence the reason I said if it's not a chiro or other medical issue. I was simply sharing my experience with some of the horses I've worked with, as stubborness is sometimes the problem with a select few horses. That's great that chiro and acupuncture worked for your horse, but after getting work done on a mare only to find she was just stubborn and trying to get out of work, getting her up and teaching her that dropping to the ground was not the correct answer, she never did it again. The op was looking for opinions and help, I put in my two cents. Take it or leave it. Isn't that what this board is for? |
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Concrete Queen
Posts: 1657
| LuckyNGG'sGirl - 2014-06-03 11:23 PM Supernel8 - 2014-06-03 7:12 AM LuckyNGG'sGirl - 2014-06-02 9:46 PM If it's not a chiro or other medical issue, I've known a few horses to do this and the only fix was to boot 'em hard. Actually this is exactly what a horse with this issue DOESN'T need! I owned one just like this. Its definatly a chiro issue along
with being "cinchy". After taking him to have chiro/accu done every time I saddled him I would start out by very lightly
tightening the cinch,,, then start walking him out,,,, all it took was about a minute to let him feel like he wasnt "feeling confined"
, then I could take him back to the trailer and tie him up. Unfortunatly its an issue that never went away,, but it was an issue that was
manageable. In no way did it make him a bad horse,,,, just an issue he had. Hence the reason I said if it's not a chiro or other medical issue. I was simply sharing my experience with some of the horses I've worked with, as stubborness is sometimes the problem with a select few horses. That's great that chiro and acupuncture worked for your horse, but after getting work done on a mare only to find she was just stubborn and trying to get out of work, getting her up and teaching her that dropping to the ground was not the correct answer, she never did it again. The op was looking for opinions and help, I put in my two cents. Take it or leave it. Isn't that what this board is for?
Edited by Supernel8 2014-06-04 7:25 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 503
| Supernel8 - 2014-06-04 7:22 AM
LuckyNGG'sGirl - 2014-06-03 11:23 PM Supernel8 - 2014-06-03 7:12 AM LuckyNGG'sGirl - 2014-06-02 9:46 PM If it's not a chiro or other medical issue, I've known a few horses to do this and the only fix was to boot 'em hard. Actually this is exactly what a horse with this issue DOESN'T need! I owned one just like this. Its definatly a chiro issue along
with being "cinchy". After taking him to have chiro/accu done every time I saddled him I would start out by very lightly
tightening the cinch,,, then start walking him out,,,, all it took was about a minute to let him feel like he wasnt "feeling confined"
, then I could take him back to the trailer and tie him up. Unfortunatly its an issue that never went away,, but it was an issue that was
manageable. In no way did it make him a bad horse,,,, just an issue he had. Hence the reason I said if it's not a chiro or other medical issue. I was simply sharing my experience with some of the horses I've worked with, as stubborness is sometimes the problem with a select few horses. That's great that chiro and acupuncture worked for your horse, but after getting work done on a mare only to find she was just stubborn and trying to get out of work, getting her up and teaching her that dropping to the ground was not the correct answer, she never did it again. The op was looking for opinions and help, I put in my two cents. Take it or leave it. Isn't that what this board is for?
Definitely didn't mean to give off the vibe I know everything because it's certainly not true! Everyone, young and old has something new to learn and I have a lot left to learn. :) Maybe "booting" them was the wrong choice of words - I just mean getting them up off the ground (which sometimes does involve kicking them with your foot, and I don't mean whaling on them, just a little kick to get them up) and putting them to work so they figure out that the wrong thing is hard but standing there and getting cinched up is easy. I was just suggesting that sometimes horses need discipline and it's not always a medical issue!
I do like everyone on this board and I've been following for quite a few years now, but I could see why someone would be discouraged from posting. Don't be so quick to judge! Life's too short. |
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Location: South Dakota | LuckyNGG'sGirl - 2014-06-02 9:46 PM If it's not a chiro or other medical issue, I've known a few horses to do this and the only fix was to boot 'em hard.
Right....horses just drop to the ground because they don't want to work ????  If a horse behaves in that fashion...I cannot imagine the abuse it has had in it's life, for it to consider laying on the ground as a good option.
I am beyond words...other than, google Ray Hunt, and study. |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I wonder what would happen if you turned this horse out with a surcingle or one of those pads you can buy with a girth? Maybe for a couple hours in a pen to begin with, and then for longer periods of time. Having a chiro evaluate him first would probably be a good idea, but if some anatomic reason could be ruled out, would this be something worth considering? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 561
Location: somewhere in the south | Maybe HotbearLVR but I am definitely going to get him evaluated as soon as my vet is back from vacation! It hurt so bad to watch him lay there.........he had such a terrified look in his eyes! Love this horse so much I didn't even want to ride him afterwards but did and he worked awesome!! This was my first ride back in almost a year and it was like we never left the arena!!! He's worth his weight in gold.................. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I think having him evaluated first is a good idea, Bev. You are not some newcomer to horses and I'd trust your judgement. Have you always owned this horse? Has anyone else owned him before you or has anyone else been involved in his training? Now the problem is that he has learned that if he drops to the ground, you have to back off for a while, so, in effect his behavior is self-rewarding. If you slowly apply something like a surcingle and eventually have him wear it all day long, he can drop to the ground as much as he wants in the pasture and he won't be rewarded. I wonder if this won't help break the cycle. Certainly wouldn't hurt. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 475
Location: Alabama | Mine was also a saddle issue. I was using semi-bars & she needed full QH bars. She still freaks sometimes because it is now a "learned" behavior. I have her checked regularly & there is no more pain, but she hasn't forgotten when there was. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | turn3nhome - 2014-06-04 9:08 AM Maybe HotbearLVR but I am definitely going to get him evaluated as soon as my vet is back from vacation! It hurt so bad to watch him lay there.........he had such a terrified look in his eyes! Love this horse so much I didn't even want to ride him afterwards but did and he worked awesome!! This was my first ride back in almost a year and it was like we never left the arena!!! He's worth his weight in gold..................
Hope that you have him checked soon I would like to know the out come and I hope its something easy that the Chiro can fit in a few vistis  |
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 Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | If it is the Vegas nerve , try a different legenth girth. |
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Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| A word on horses laying down...from me, ha ha!
I've started a ton of untouched horses. I've messed with a ton of pretty spoiled rotten nasties, too. Sometimes they were both together.
SOMETIMES: A horse gets so infuriated, he sulls up and throws himself down (see, human toddler). This is usually when he has a foot tied up, or is at his wits end upset about not getting away, etc. I just get a coffee can of water and pour a little bit up their nose. They decide that down and sulking is BAD! and get up. It isn't something they make a habit over when they find out that their sinuses get wet. I'd rather deal with something broncy and volatile than something that gets upset and just quits. Those horses don't usually make it too far in life, just a lack of want to. The horses that do throw themselves are usually older (four or five) and just being started, and can't wrap their little brain around not being in charge. Just front foot one sometime that's a real doll, you can watch their eyes glaze over with the sulks, their top lip starts to scrub, and they just..fold over...and won't get up. Too mad! Sometimes when they throw themselves down, it scares them and they never do it again.
When it's your good saddle horse that is honest, broke, and gentle, there's something physically wrong. A Chiro is your answer there, and understanding and a slow comeback under a long line. |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | i had one that did this because of stubborness. how do I know it was not an ill fitting saddle? she wasnt saddled!!!! I put boots on her legs and she threw a complete hissy and threw herself on the ground and yes froze. and yes I booted her in the fanny |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 561
Location: somewhere in the south | I talked to my vet and we are going to get him checked physically but she's sure it is a frenetic nerve thing, which is connected to the vagas nerve. Believe me when I say it was totally INvoluntary!!! He did not throw himself down and it was not an attitude thing! I haven't had him all his life but he is a good horse, takes great care of me and don't believe for a minute he did it to himself trying to get out of work. She's going to work him into her schedule and I will also have her adjust him if needed! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 561
Location: somewhere in the south | roxieannie - 2014-06-04 3:10 PM If it is the Vegas nerve , try a different legenth girth.
Longer or shorter???
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Concrete Queen
Posts: 1657
| Keep us updated,,,,,,,,,,, Sounds like you have a good vet,,, glad to hear she is working your horse into her schedule. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | turn3nhome - 2014-06-05 9:12 AM I talked to my vet and we are going to get him checked physically but she's sure it is a frenetic nerve thing, which is connected to the vagas nerve. Believe me when I say it was totally INvoluntary!!! He did not throw himself down and it was not an attitude thing! I haven't had him all his life but he is a good horse, takes great care of me and don't believe for a minute he did it to himself trying to get out of work. She's going to work him into her schedule and I will also have her adjust him if needed!
So glad that your not a booter and trying to fix/help the problem.
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | turn3nhome - 2014-06-05 9:12 AM
roxieannie - 2014-06-04 3:10 PM If it is the Vegas nerve , try a different legenth girth.
Longer or shorter???
Longer |
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 Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | turn3nhome - 2014-06-03 2:32 PM I have a gelding that is , I guess you would say cinchy, BUT what happens is totally involuntary. If you happen to get him a little too tight too quickly, he just falls down and lays there, frozen! And Lord help me if he's tied, then it looks as if he's hanging himself! I am usually very careful how I cinch him up and all is good but at a show this weekend, I pulled the cinch up close, not even snug yet, turned my back and he fell out! Lucky I wasn't standing next to him! We got the lead undone and then the offbillet and finally, after about a minute he jumped up like "What"???? I redid everything and walked him, cinched, walked, cinched and all was good but I was really nervous about it all! Any info, help, advice?????????? It was really scary, I felt so bad for him.
I haven't read all the replies, but it seems to me you already know the solution. DON"T tie him up before you cinch him. Get a Blocker Tie Ring, or an Aussie Tie Ring (from Clinton Anderson, same thing) and use that to tie him to saddle. When you start to cinch, do it very loosely and walk him a few steps, tighten it some more, walk him a few more steps and tighten a little more. You are going to have to cinch him a little at a time because he is sensitive. This does not go away with some horses no matter what you do. My good rodeo mare would pull back if you cinched her too tight. After the second time, I never tied her again. I competed on her that way for 12 years, it was just her. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | svincent - 2014-06-05 12:22 PM turn3nhome - 2014-06-05 9:12 AM roxieannie - 2014-06-04 3:10 PM If it is the Vegas nerve , try a different legenth girth. Longer or shorter???
Longer
I agree the longer the cinch the better. I hate seeing a cinch that is to short, I rather see it being to long then to short. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| classicpotatochip - 2014-06-04 2:30 PM
A word on horses laying down...from me, ha ha!
I've started a ton of untouched horses. I've messed with a ton of pretty spoiled rotten nasties, too. Sometimes they were both together.
SOMETIMES: A horse gets so infuriated, he sulls up and throws himself down (see, human toddler). This is usually when he has a foot tied up, or is at his wits end upset about not getting away, etc. I just get a coffee can of water and pour a little bit up their nose. They decide that down and sulking is BAD! and get up. It isn't something they make a habit over when they find out that their sinuses get wet. I'd rather deal with something broncy and volatile than something that gets upset and just quits. Those horses don't usually make it too far in life, just a lack of want to. The horses that do throw themselves are usually older (four or five) and just being started, and can't wrap their little brain around not being in charge. Just front foot one sometime that's a real doll, you can watch their eyes glaze over with the sulks, their top lip starts to scrub, and they just..fold over...and won't get up. Too mad! Sometimes when they throw themselves down, it scares them and they never do it again.
When it's your good saddle horse that is honest, broke, and gentle, there's something physically wrong. A Chiro is your answer there, and understanding and a slow comeback under a long line.
I never thought of that water trick!!! I'm glad you posted that. I had one that was a totally a** when it came to cinching him up, didn't throw himself down but would just sit back until he snapped the lead and then after he broke it he would stand like he was suppose too. I tried everything I could think of, treated for ulcers, took to the vet to have checked, new girths, pads, saddles.... I finally lost my temper one day and he set back and I took the closest thing to me, which happened to be an old boat oar, and I swung it across his butt, oar broke and so did his nasty fit! he stood like a gentleman from that day forward. he's 32 this year! |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7268
| Hollywood's Fan - 2014-06-05 12:53 PM turn3nhome - 2014-06-03 2:32 PM I have a gelding that is , I guess you would say cinchy, BUT what happens is totally involuntary. If you happen to get him a little too tight too quickly, he just falls down and lays there, frozen! And Lord help me if he's tied, then it looks as if he's hanging himself! I am usually very careful how I cinch him up and all is good but at a show this weekend, I pulled the cinch up close, not even snug yet, turned my back and he fell out! Lucky I wasn't standing next to him! We got the lead undone and then the offbillet and finally, after about a minute he jumped up like "What"???? I redid everything and walked him, cinched, walked, cinched and all was good but I was really nervous about it all! Any info, help, advice?????????? It was really scary, I felt so bad for him.
This is exactly how my mare was. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 561
Location: somewhere in the south | Southtxponygirl - 2014-06-05 1:54 PM svincent - 2014-06-05 12:22 PM turn3nhome - 2014-06-05 9:12 AM roxieannie - 2014-06-04 3:10 PM If it is the Vegas nerve , try a different legenth girth. Longer or shorter???
Longer
The cinch I use only has about an inch or two on each side after cinching up............I'll have to measure but it's either a 34 or 36" so that should be good right? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| turn3nhome - 2014-06-06 8:27 AM
Southtxponygirl - 2014-06-05 1:54 PM svincent - 2014-06-05 12:22 PM turn3nhome - 2014-06-05 9:12 AM roxieannie - 2014-06-04 3:10 PM If it is the Vegas nerve , try a different legenth girth. Longer or shorter???
Longer
What type of cinch do you use?
If you are not using a shearling, maybe try one of those, more padding, more protection. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | turn3nhome - 2014-06-06 8:27 AM Southtxponygirl - 2014-06-05 1:54 PM svincent - 2014-06-05 12:22 PM turn3nhome - 2014-06-05 9:12 AM roxieannie - 2014-06-04 3:10 PM If it is the Vegas nerve , try a different legenth girth. Longer or shorter???
Longer
I have huge horses and I have 36's on them and one gelding wears a 34. If you only have a inch or 2 on each side I would say to long, can you show a picture of your horse cinched up. I have at least 8 inches between cinch and saddle. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | cheryl makofka - 2014-06-06 10:02 AM turn3nhome - 2014-06-06 8:27 AM Southtxponygirl - 2014-06-05 1:54 PM svincent - 2014-06-05 12:22 PM turn3nhome - 2014-06-05 9:12 AM roxieannie - 2014-06-04 3:10 PM If it is the Vegas nerve , try a different legenth girth. Longer or shorter???
Longer What type of cinch do you use? If you are not using a shearling, maybe try one of those, more padding, more protection.
I agree on the shearling, love them. I use the Professionals Choice shearling roper style. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 443
Location: Southern IL somewhere between KY and MO | My gelding does this but he pulls back at the trailer or rears up so I have learned to cinch slowly and walk him out. I have treated him for ulcers and had him chiro. He is getting better with my new saddle and the more I ride the more he behaves. but I have not ridden since the first of April still stuck in the state of LA for a few more days...thank you Jesus I get to go home soon!!! |
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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | A few years ago I went through all of the above with my mare. She would lay down, set back, run backwards 100 mph, etc etc. Thousands in vet bills, saddles, and cinches later....it was the PSSM causing this. I can literally predict my mare's behavior by knowing whether she's had days off, been on grass, or been dry lotted. Her reaction will be directly related to how much starch she has consumed and how much she's been worked. She will now stand perfectly relaxed and calm...no more broken leads...no tie rings necessary. |
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Really need some help..................