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 Veteran
Posts: 109
Location: Ky | How many of you all run horses with papers vs without? When buying a horse, is it a major factor for you or not? I've got two with and one without and I love them all the same... I've found an appendix that I'm starting to really like, but he doesn't have papers. Does that factor into price or not? Opinions please! |
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 Expert
Posts: 1229
 
Location: Royal J Performance Horses, AZ | No I would not buy an non papered horse, ESP in this market.
IMO it should factor in to price, and some times it does. but if a horse is a 1D pro rodeo winning horse where ever you haul it, it's going to win that money and place whether its registered or not. So in that case it would not matter ( at least in my opinion)
When it comes to "average" barrel horses like one just started on the pattern or only a 2D or 3D horses I think papers maybe matter a bit more. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 331
Location: Loma Linda, CA | I run a non-papered horse or rather I'm training one lol.
I do intend on getting my papered horse.
The old saying goes you can't ride papers... I've added my own portion to end the sentence "but it helps" lol!
And by that I mean you get a horse specifically bred for something (cow horse, barrel horse, race horse etc), naturally they should have more ability towards that sport, but that's not to say your grade horse CANT be a champion... I'd just say it is rarer.
Heck even some papered horses bred for barrels won't always be in the 1D.
I guess it depends on whether you're doing it for fun or if you have rodeo dreams.
Royal J is right though, if a grade horse is running in the 1D and winning then it doesn't matter that that point. He's gonna be one of those rare grade horses that just is awesome at the job given him.
But overall proper training is gonna be key for that specific discipline :) You can have a papered up the butt horse running in the 3D when really a fine tuning and the proper rider could make them unbeatable.
Okay, Im rambling now. Im done :P |
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Veteran
Posts: 109
Location: Ky | The owner says that he IS papered but she lost his papers.. which I can believe because I lost a set on a horse that I had only had for a month one time (Almost a year and still can't find them anywhere!). So if I do decide to get him, how do I go about getting another set of papers, or is it even worth it? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| If the lady cannot provide papers, I would say she is probably lieing.
To get papers you need to fill out the form take pictures and I think have it notarized and I believe it costs less then 50.00 ( may have changed it has been awhile since I had to look in this)
Nice thing about papers it proves lineage, and age. |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
 
| I currently run a horse bred for western pleasure/hunt seat. So his papers are essentially worthless. I've ran many grade horses in my lifetime and have had success on them. However, I do think its easier to know a horses pedigree because sometimes you learn more about their personality or their tendencies. As another poster stated, you're gonna know what their background supports.
I personlly like to know a little more about a grade horse when looking to buy... sellers wont always be honest but it helps to try and learn. I ran a QH/Paint and we believe Morgan somewhere... and it was helpful to know those things. This horse was a 2D/3D gelding that was an awesome step up horse and worth his weight on gold.
Another friend had a great horse who I know he was QH but cant for the live of me figure out what he was crossed with. He was 1D/2D in his prime and a jam up all around horse.
Papered horses are easier to sell, so if there's a possibility of resale be aware of that before purchasing. Price should reflect their lack of papers in my opinion because there is no guarantee on even how old they are.
If the price was right and you like him, then I wouldnt hesitate. |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| i would never buy a grade horse... after the age of 12 you can not tell the age of a horse... unless they are really showing age but hey my horses dont show age lol.. and who is to say that horse isnt hh ect.... and if they tell you they cant find the papers they are lieing all they have to do is send paperwork in to aqha.. |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| stayceem - 2014-07-09 9:33 PM I currently run a horse bred for western pleasure/hunt seat. So his papers are essentially worthless. I've ran many grade horses in my lifetime and have had success on them. However, I do think its easier to know a horses pedigree because sometimes you learn more about their personality or their tendencies. As another poster stated, you're gonna know what their background supports. I personlly like to know a little more about a grade horse when looking to buy... sellers wont always be honest but it helps to try and learn. I ran a QH/Paint and we believe Morgan somewhere... and it was helpful to know those things. This horse was a 2D/3D gelding that was an awesome step up horse and worth his weight on gold. Another friend had a great horse who I know he was QH but cant for the live of me figure out what he was crossed with. He was 1D/2D in his prime and a jam up all around horse. Papered horses are easier to sell, so if there's a possibility of resale be aware of that before purchasing. Price should reflect their lack of papers in my opinion because there is no guarantee on even how old they are. If the price was right and you like him, then I wouldnt hesitate.
most of those horses are old bred race horses anyways so its not worthless
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 I'm Cooler Offline
Posts: 6387
Location: Pacific Northwest | cheryl makofka - 2014-07-08 9:29 PM
If the lady cannot provide papers, I would say she is probably lieing.
To get papers you need to fill out the form take pictures and I think have it notarized and I believe it costs less then 50.00 ( may have changed it has been awhile since I had to look in this)
Nice thing about papers it proves lineage, and age.
I'm getting new papers for the horse I just bought from my friend, she lost them. It's a little bit easier with my horse. My friend has always had multiple copies of her papers, so AQHA is having me send those in, along with the transfer papers, and the new pictures of the horse. My horse also has a lip tattoo from the track. I think she said it was $30 for new papers.
I'm not sure how you do it without even a copy of the papers though. |
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I'm Cooler Offline
Posts: 6387
Location: Pacific Northwest | I think the reason why papers make a horse worth more is it takes out a lot of guess work. You can easily look up their age, their breed, their pedigree, their previous owner history, whether they've had babies, all these things that you have to do detective work on with horses that aren't papered. Unless I knew the person very well I would be hesitant to believe anything a person told me about a "grade" horse. |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| My personal OP
all of mine are papered because of resale, I know what tht are out of and can prove it and can breed them if I want
I will not breed a non papered horse but I also won't breed just anything with papers.
I can't say I won't buy a non papered horse because I might if it's the exact horse I'm looking for but I do expect a lesser price than if it were papered. I wouldn't buy a non papered "prospect" because people lie all the time about pedigrees that they don't have to prove.
Now, all that being said there are lots of non papered horses out there worth a lot more than some of the papered ones. I'm a big fan of "you can't ride papers" but I'm also a big fan of "it's hard to sell 'em without papers" |
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Expert
Posts: 1229
Location: Royal J Performance Horses, AZ | miraclequarterhorses - 2014-07-08 10:09 PM
The owner says that he IS papered but she lost his papers.. which I can believe because I lost a set on a horse that I had only had for a month one time (Almost a year and still can't find them anywhere!). So if I do decide to get him, how do I go about getting another set of papers, or is it even worth it?
im sure this is a silly question as I assume you may have thought of this. but by chance did the horse prepare or run on the track? if so check for a tattoo!
If not then Never mind me  |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | Fancie_That_Chrome_ - 2014-07-08 10:58 PM No I would not buy an non papered horse, ESP in this market. IMO it should factor in to price, and some times it does. but if a horse is a 1D pro rodeo winning horse where ever you haul it, it's going to win that money and place whether its registered or not. So in that case it would not matter ( at least in my opinion) When it comes to "average" barrel horses like one just started on the pattern or only a 2D or 3D horses I think papers maybe matter a bit more.
I agree.
Non-papered horses are harder to sell, unless it's a bomb proof childs horse...then it's a worth it's weight in gold (in my eyes anyways). |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| Last month we bought a 5yo mare without papers...
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| I've got one that isn't papered that someone offered me a great deal of money for. If they can prove themselves, and its a gelding**, papers don't really matter. A mare...yes. If I'm looking at prospects I prefer papers, mainly because I want to verify the information about the horse with the papers and for resale purposes. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| RoaniePonie11 - 2014-07-09 12:38 AM
My personal OP
all of mine are papered because of resale, I know what tht are out of and can prove it and can breed them if I want
I will not breed a non papered horse but I also won't breed just anything with papers.
I can't say I won't buy a non papered horse because I might if it's the exact horse I'm looking for but I do expect a lesser price than if it were papered. I wouldn't buy a non papered "prospect" because people lie all the time about pedigrees that they don't have to prove.
Now, all that being said there are lots of non papered horses out there worth a lot more than some of the papered ones. I'm a big fan of "you can't ride papers" but I'm also a big fan of "it's hard to sell 'em without papers"
This. ^^
And to add my 2 cents ... I run with papers in the mounted shooting world as there are incentives for APHA and AQHA with added money.
I've watched many a good horse without papers kick my rear end but I sure LOVE the resale value of one with 'em. |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I have a 21 yr old that I raised that is not papered. He is out of an Appy mare and came out a bay roan like his sire. He was a super nice horse in his day, but later when I would have liked to have shown AQHA it was a bummer because he was not AQHA.
I won't buy another unless it was an oldie but goodie for my kids. They are hard to sell, lack of proof of age being one. |
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Fire Ant Peddler
Posts: 2881
| People around here are giving away VERY nice registered horse because they can't sell them. You can pick up a nicely bred young horse at the sales around here for about $30 if you are patient. |
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Blessed 
Location: Here | Prospects absolute most
Finished horse that is kicking butt everywhere gelding priced right no papers
Mare absolutely |
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Blessed
Location: Here | miraclequarterhorses - 2014-07-08 9:40 PM How many of you all run horses with papers vs without? When buying a horse, is it a major factor for you or not? I've got two with and one without and I love them all the same... I've found an appendix that I'm starting to really like, but he doesn't have papers. Does that factor into price or not? Opinions please!
Here is another way to look at it You say he is appendix that means papers exist somewhere. I would not buy him simply because there are papers floating around somewhere and someone might show up and say that is my horse! They did not have the right to sell you MY horse |
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 Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
Nowadays, I don't think I would buy anything without papers. Re-sell value sucks without papers and frankly, I like knowing where my horse came from and how they are bred. However, 15 years ago we bought a 5 year old un-registered buckskin gelding and he is the by far the best horse I have ever owned. I was able to track down his breeder and found out he is by a Poco Bueno stud. He is 20 now and I wouldnt sell him for a million bucks. So dont let it be a deal breaker if its the horse you want.
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Fire Ant Peddler
Posts: 2881
| SG. - 2014-07-09 11:54 AM
miraclequarterhorses - 2014-07-08 9:40 PM How many of you all run horses with papers vs without? When buying a horse, is it a major factor for you or not? I've got two with and one without and I love them all the same... I've found an appendix that I'm starting to really like, but he doesn't have papers. Does that factor into price or not? Opinions please!
Here is another way to look at it You say he is appendix that means papers exist somewhere. I would not buy him simply because there are papers floating around somewhere and someone might show up and say that is my horse! They did not have the right to sell you MY horse
That did actually happen to someone I know. The people showed up with the police at a barrel race. |
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 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Yup, would you buy a vehicle without a title? It proves ownership among the other things previously stated. If there are papers, get them and process them. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 507
Location: Lost in the corn of Iowa. | Depends what you want to do with the horse. If you wanna eventually breed it then no, I wouldn't even consider it. If you just want to ride it and run barrels then sure I would. Also it would depend if it was a gelding, mare or stallion. I have one papered and on grade that we run at home. And the kids have fun running the grade mare, so to me that's what is important. At the end of the day you can't run on papers. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | If he does have papers just get the owner to get another set, if hes in her name there should be no problem. I have done this when I bought a gelding, the owner lost the papers on him and we just called AQHA, gave them the Reg. name sent in pictures, signed paper, and got a new set of papers in about 4 weeks. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | If the horse has papers that are just lost, absolutely get new copies. I feel in this market, you owe it to the horse because it makes them worth more.
Lots of good points have already been made here, but I'll add another one. Given all the genetic disease issues out there, I'd like to know my horse's pedigree even if he's just a riding gelding. It might matter someday and we all know lots of gorgeous Impressive bred geldings suddenly became "grade horses" when that information came out.
Here's some more information:
http://horsesofthewest.com/news/2014/01/aqha-5-panel-genetic-diseas...
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Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | Honeymoney - 2014-07-09 1:35 PM SG. - 2014-07-09 11:54 AM miraclequarterhorses - 2014-07-08 9:40 PM How many of you all run horses with papers vs without? When buying a horse, is it a major factor for you or not? I've got two with and one without and I love them all the same... I've found an appendix that I'm starting to really like, but he doesn't have papers. Does that factor into price or not? Opinions please! Here is another way to look at it You say he is appendix that means papers exist somewhere. I would not buy him simply because there are papers floating around somewhere and someone might show up and say that is my horse! They did not have the right to sell you MY horse That did actually happen to someone I know. The people showed up with the police at a barrel race.
Some people are crazy enough to do things like that! I won't buy without papers in hand now!!!! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 682
Location: Northwest | miraclequarterhorses - 2014-07-08 7:40 PM
How many of you all run horses with papers vs without? When buying a horse, is it a major factor for you or not? I've got two with and one without and I love them all the same... I've found an appendix that I'm starting to really like, but he doesn't have papers. Does that factor into price or not? Opinions please!
I would buy a grade horse IF it was a competitive finished horse that had proven itself. However, for buying prospects, I always buy registered for re-sale value. Sometimes it is hard to walk away from a grade purchase though, there are some super nice looking, nice minded ones out there. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 422
Location: Fort Bragg North Carolina | Unless u plan on selling papers don't matter. It's the horse that matters. I have 2 grades and we pull checks consistently thy have tripled their worth easily. Plus u can get grades cheaper nobody knows their grade except you. |
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 I Am Always Right
Posts: 4264
Location: stray dump capital of the world | One of the best little horses I've ever seen was a grade mare my friend bought for her daughter. That little horse was a gusty little thing that took a 10 year old novice rider to an experienced competitor. I personally wouldn't write off a grade horse especially if the price is right. That said, I am more a papered kinda buyer simply because it gives you important things such as lineage, age, but more importantly, a paper trail.
Go with your gut. If it is what you want, who gives a hoot about papers.
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| I have yet to see a timer ask for papers... |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 920
| Its a factor but performance is the selling point for me. Yeah papers look good and give you some reassurance but what matters is the horse itself. I have a grade and I have some nice papered stock some of which I wish were mares lol. I like the grade the best. |
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 Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | Itsme - 2014-07-20 10:32 PM I have yet to see a timer ask for papers...
I've had a lot of buyers ask for papers though....
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | sophiebelle - 2014-07-20 9:43 AM One of the best little horses I've ever seen was a grade mare my friend bought for her daughter. That little horse was a gusty little thing that took a 10 year old novice rider to an experienced competitor. I personally wouldn't write off a grade horse especially if the price is right. That said, I am more a papered kinda buyer simply because it gives you important things such as lineage, age, but more importantly, a paper trail.
Go with your gut. If it is what you want, who gives a hoot about papers.
When it comes to kid horses, papers absolutely do not matter. All but one kid horse I or my kids have had were registered but we have yet to lay hands on papers--they were lost somewhere along the way. It's nice to know their exact ages but not a requirement.
Buying prospects, I have to have papers in hand. Already played the he's grade, but eligible for registration, I can get the breeder's certificate for you game. Not going there again and I took a loss to get him sold after putting a lot of work into getting him better broke and started on the pattern. It might have turned out ok if I had been able to finish him, but life happened. |
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Papered horses?