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 Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
  
Location: the high desert | If a horse lands toe first is that a sign of "its the beginning of the end"?
Edited by Iwish 2014-07-21 4:54 PM
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
  
Location: In the Hills of Texas | The horse I have now was landing toe first on all 4 feet and is why our daughter sent him to me to get his feet fixed. My Certified Natural Balance farrier fixed him. |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | What did he do to fix him? |
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 Certified Snake Wrangler
Posts: 1672
Location: North MS | pics would help but typically it involves lowering heels to gain frog contact to ground and shortening toe if it is too long. Balanced trim from side to side and no obvious length differences in hoof wall. Lots more involved if there are flares, infections, bruising, rotation etc. |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | So its fixable depending on why they are doing it. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Iwish - 2014-07-21 12:41 AM What did he do to fix him?
Balanced his foot. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Can you take a picture of his feet and post them?
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 Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | The mustang pony we picked up last week lands toe first. We are having our farrier come to work on him soon. But his feet are a mess in my opinion. Heels are very under run. Toe seems long. Unbalanced all the way around. A balanced foot is a healthy foot. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| If they are landing toe first it could be caudal heel pain, navicular, or arthritis.
I would take the horse to a lamness expert, and make sure the horse doesn't have contracted heels. If a horse has contracted heels long term it can cause navicular changes.
No landing toe first doesn't have to mean the beginning of the end if you get the proper diagnosis and treatment. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 330
| Toe landing = discomfort in the heel for SOME reason.
Those reasons could include:
Thrush
Navicular changes
Contracted heels
underrun heels
underrun heels/long toes
Contracted and underrun heels
Overgrown bars
A shoe that's too small
Take a good hard look at feet.
Are they balanced?
Nice short toe, supportive heel?
No evidence of thrush?
Are the frogs healthy and clean?
I love this website, my farrier apprenticed with this woman. I know many of you shoe, and that's fine, but the foot above the shoe is what matters. If you're putting a shoe on a foot that needs work, just shoes aren't going to fix the issue.
www.heikebean.com
http://heikebean.com/OO/hh-tot.htm#start
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 Veteran
Posts: 268
| When they land on the toe they are generally sore in the heel. Especially if they are somewhat balanced. Often navicular horses do this. However you would want to have the foot balanced then go from there |
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Veteran
Posts: 185
| I would thinking depending on the situation that this should be quite fixable. I'm recommending barefoot again. Its way easier to address problems without the shoe in the way. You can then gradually lower heels, shorten toes, address flare, thoroughly clean/treat a hoof for thrush... You will get more blood circulation and much improved shock absorption too. It all about making the hoof function as it was intended too. All the structures play an important role so its about letting them play there part.
Its kinda a circular problem if you think about it......toe first causes problems heel pain and heel pain causes toe first - chicken and egg thing
I agree please post some pictures! It could be something as "simple" as thrush/central sulcus thursh
Frog stimulation is key, like mentioned above. If heels are high and contracted the trick will be to lower them gradually and get the frog working. Hoof boots with frog stimulation will help. You can buy cheap spongy floor pieces, cut them and duct tape them. They will form too the hoof and help stimulate the frog. Obviously take them off everyday and replace with new. They will probably fall off by themselfs first. But don't leave anything on your horses hooves for days without checking! Thrush can thrive in that environment too.
Like already said balanced the hooves. Remove/kill infection. Check that bars aren't too long/laid over but don't over trim them either, just above/at sole. I would suggest rolling the edge "mustang roll". Address breakover accordingly, goes with balancing. Don't touch the sole, sole could be thin, let it build. Don't over trim frogs, only if infected or to remove flaps/prevent infection. Make the hooves function like they should and they way they should for that particular horse. Every structure has a part to play! |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | I will try and get some pictures but they wont be wonderful as there is not a very good spot to take side views without someone holding him. I would love to have a natural balance farrier do his feet but I dont know of any in my area. The horse in question is a yearling. Planning on having the vet do a lameness exam/x rays next week. |
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Veteran
Posts: 185
| A lot of the times shoes cause and/or help these problems worsen(navicular, thrush, arthritis...) Because they interfear with how the hoof was meant to function. No wonder you get heal pain, shoe in the way, causes less frog stimulation and as a result less blood flow. Frogs become little unused things/reseed, heels contract....heal pain......WAM Navicular!. Perfect unused sick frog for thrush to eat away at! Decreased blood flow/decreased shock absorption - stress on joints - BAM ARTHRITIS or at least causes more harm helping arthritis along.
The more I read and learn about hooves the more I believe shoes just flat out suck. IMO anyone else or I'm I to be stoned by the shoe people!  |
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Veteran
Posts: 185
| With a yearling you still have the time to correct problems with proper trimming. Your on the right track with the vet radiographs will be very helpful for a trimmer. Hopefully its just an issue you can correct with proper hoof balance.
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | here are some terrible pictures. He is currently living in a flood irrigated pasture so maybe thats making his feet soft? He is very ouchy when he steps on rocks, so maybe he is thinned soled as well? Aside from needing a trim, are his feet that bad? Not sure you will even be able to see anything because i had to make the pictures so tiny. That was the only "good" straight on side picture i was able to get.
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  Ms. Manners
Posts: 1820
Location: Oklahoma | One can't really tell the angles his foot is at by just looking at the sole. Any side and rear pics of his hoof on the ground? |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | none for today, i will try and get some tomorrow. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Iwish - 2014-07-21 4:55 PM
here are some terrible pictures. He is currently living in a flood irrigated pasture so maybe thats making his feet soft? He is very ouchy when he steps on rocks, so maybe he is thinned soled as well? Aside from needing a trim, are his feet that bad? Not sure you will even be able to see anything because i had to make the pictures so tiny. That was the only "good" straight on side picture i was able to get.
It looks like her heel is contracted on the inside for sure. Contraction can happen from many natural things such as too long of toes, and dry conditions.
It also looks like she may have thrush, I know some barefoot trimmers would hang me but I would clean up the frog and treat for thrush till the vet appointment. If you have hoof testers and know how to use them I would test his foot and see where he is sore, this will tell you if it is thrush, heel or something else. I would make sure you vet uses hoof testers.
From the one side view it does look like he has underslung heels, not that bad, but this can also cause contracted heel pain. His hair line is also frowning by his heels which is an indicator something is wrong, but you already knew that the way he was landing.
He looks like he is due for a trim, after the vet appointment, I would make sure he goes onto a 4-5 week trim schedule since he is so young and is already having problems. |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | Never heard of a frowning hair line around the heels could mean problems. Learn something new everyday. What kind of problems would that suggest? |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| CowgirlLindz - 2014-07-21 3:53 PM
A lot of the times shoes cause and/or help these problems worsen (navicular, thrush, arthritis... ) Because they interfear with how the hoof was meant to function. No wonder you get heal pain, shoe in the way, causes less frog stimulation and as a result less blood flow. Frogs become little unused things/reseed, heels contract....heal pain......WAM Navicular!. Perfect unused sick frog for thrush to eat away at! Decreased blood flow/decreased shock absorption - stress on joints - BAM ARTHRITIS or at least causes more harm helping arthritis along.
The more I read and learn about hooves the more I believe shoes just flat out suck. IMO anyone else or I'm I to be stoned by the shoe people!
Nobodies gonna stone you - however, I have seen good/correct shoeing benefit horses - my mare is a testament to this.
There are bad farriers, bad shoers, and bad natural hoof practicioners as well. I think in order to accurately state a blanket statement like this and make the correlations in which shoes cause more problems, you may need to consider all the information and sources that you are pulling your information from ....  |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Iwish - 2014-07-21 8:06 PM
Never heard of a frowning hair line around the heels could mean problems. Learn something new everyday. What kind of problems would that suggest?
It wasn't my horse, but someone who goes to the same vet, hers had the frown, vet never even blocked went straight to X-rays and a bone spur showed up. This was a career ender for this horse, the spur was in a bad spot and could not be removed. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| lindseylou2290 - 2014-07-21 9:11 PM
CowgirlLindz - 2014-07-21 3:53 PM
A lot of the times shoes cause and/or help these problems worsen (navicular, thrush, arthritis... ) Because they interfear with how the hoof was meant to function. No wonder you get heal pain, shoe in the way, causes less frog stimulation and as a result less blood flow. Frogs become little unused things/reseed, heels contract....heal pain......WAM Navicular!. Perfect unused sick frog for thrush to eat away at! Decreased blood flow/decreased shock absorption - stress on joints - BAM ARTHRITIS or at least causes more harm helping arthritis along.
The more I read and learn about hooves the more I believe shoes just flat out suck. IMO anyone else or I'm I to be stoned by the shoe people!
Nobodies gonna stone you - however, I have seen good/correct shoeing benefit horses - my mare is a testament to this.
There are bad farriers, bad shoers, and bad natural hoof practicioners as well. I think in order to accurately state a blanket statement like this and make the correlations in which shoes cause more problems, you may need to consider all the information and sources that you are pulling your information from ....
I have to agree with cowgirl lindz, there are more bad farriers then good farriers.
Around where I live, a person can take a weekend course call themselves a farrier charge 40/trim, 120-200/shoe. There is no licensing body for farriers. Since I have a foundered horse, and have had contracted heels I find it very frustrating that I know more about the mechanism of the foot, and how to trim than most farriers.
Barefoot trimming, to belong with one organization, they have to do so many "clinic" hours, so many education hours to keep their status current.
I have had shoes cause contracted heels, and for that very reason, the horse has to be pretty bad off for me to get someone to put shoes back on. Right now I have one with fronts on as she abscessed (nothing shoes could have prevented) at the cornet band, it has grown out to where I would have more problems if I didn't shoe.
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | Ah I see. Well at this point I have just about had it with this colt. This is my fist yearling I have ever had and it has been a disaster so far. I will never buy another yearling. I dont know if this is something I have caused or if I was to stupid to notice before. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Iwish - 2014-07-21 11:10 PM
Ah I see. Well at this point I have just about had it with this colt. This is my fist yearling I have ever had and it has been a disaster so far. I will never buy another yearling. I dont know if this is something I have caused or if I was to stupid to notice before.
The vet is the only one who can tell you what is going on.
Don't put the cart infront of the horse.
A proper assessment and diagnosis will help you decide where to go from this point. |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| He's probably fine his feet don't look bad.... If he's in an irrigated field that's wet his feet are most likely soft.. He has a nasty crack up the side from breakage no biggie... You can't tell if a horse has a bone spur unless you get xrays done. And I've seen horses have huge show careers with bone spurs on their coffin bones!... If he was mine I would get him hoof tested trimmed spray them with blue coat it will dry them out and toughen them up... Then pack them with magic cushion... To take sorness out of them if that didn't help pop some X-rays.. But that's me |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | That's what im hoping is that his feet are just soft from the flood irrigation but that's wishful thinking. I might give that a try first aqha and see if that does the trick before spending $500+ in x rays and what not. |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| Iwish - 2014-07-23 1:18 AM That's what im hoping is that his feet are just soft from the flood irrigation but that's wishful thinking. I might give that a try first aqha and see if that does the trick before spending $500+ in x rays and what not.
It won't hurt to try literally my mares feet get soft and she's sore for weeks we spray blue coat on and it drys the souls out.... And I swear that stuff saved her hoof she had an abscess that under minded her whole hoof!! I had to spray it in the hole the shoer dug 3 times a day for a month and a half :(
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 330
| So I'm not seeing anything glaringly obvious about these feet that would indicate heel pain. I do not see contracted heels and the frog looks nice and plump and overall, healthy.
If it's wet where he is, I would definitely suspect soreness from that when you get him out on solid or rocky/pebbly ground.
DuraSole is your friend.
The feet don't scream "this horse should be sore" to me. If he were my horse, I would have a full vet eval now, because the feet look pretty decent. I wouldn't want to risk it being something ABOVE the foot causing him to be off. |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | Im starting to think it is coming from elsewhere as well. Im trying to get him in as soon as i can, having conflicting schedules with the vet. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | SuckerForHorses - 2014-07-22 7:30 AM So I'm not seeing anything glaringly obvious about these feet that would indicate heel pain. I do not see contracted heels and the frog looks nice and plump and overall, healthy. If it's wet where he is, I would definitely suspect soreness from that when you get him out on solid or rocky/pebbly ground. DuraSole is your friend. The feet don't scream "this horse should be sore" to me. If he were my horse, I would have a full vet eval now, because the feet look pretty decent. I wouldn't want to risk it being something ABOVE the foot causing him to be off.
I was thinking the same thing...My horse's heels were underslung and his toes were long. His frog was very long and thin.
In the one picture, her horse's heels are out of whack..one side is longer then the other. My horse's feet were terrible and I'm also not seeing terrible at all. Not good..but far from terrible. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 602
| Contracted heels for sure. A farrier can do a corrective trim on it and within a week and those "baby butt cheeks" will drop. My gelding had contracted heels really bad. If you need to treat thrush, Copper tox works really well. My mare use to stand her in poop for extra padding and it lead to thrush year around. If you use Copper tox WEAR GLOVES! It smells horrible. |
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Veteran
Posts: 185
| I'm not seeing anything horrible. He is very overdue for a trim yes. I don't think there is anything that putting him on a regular trimming cycle (with a good balanced trim) wouldn't help. Heels look uneven. They look wet/waterlogged so that could for sure be contributing to the ouchyness. Hard to tell about thrush from the picture but they do look waterlogged especially the frogs so it's definitely likely.
Don't give up! Buying young is hard and buying old is hard. You can't fix any physical/conformational problems when they are old. When they are young and still growing you still can or help improve them (depending on the problem of course).
From what I've been reading proper hoof care is very important, if not most important when they are still young and growing.
Sorry for the shoe war. But I think they don't help overall. MAYBE if the farrier is perfect, the trim is perfect and the shoe is perfect it wouldn't cause harm to the horse.....maybe.
I don't know about you guys but the farriers around here get away with murder! Never on time for appointments. They think they are god. We only have so many, owners have to deal with loads of stuff because who else are they going to go to?
One lady from england was telling me one day how horrible it was and how they don't get away with this stuff over there. There are so many well qualified farriers over there if one steps out of line there are so many ready to take the position. |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | Im having a hec of a time finding a certified natural balance farrier in my area. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Iwish - 2014-07-22 5:29 PM Im having a hec of a time finding a certified natural balance farrier in my area.
Where are you located?
Someone on here might know one. A good barefoot shoer would also work. |
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | Central oregon. I found one that sounds promising just waiting on a call back. At this point in time I think im dealing with two separate things. I think his feet are soft from the flood irrigation and unbalanced but I think he might be having something else going on.. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 330
| For those of you saying "definitely contracted heels" - can you please explain why you are saying these heels are contracted???
I'm definitely NOT seeing contracted heels. The heel buttresses are back at the widest point of the frog, nice and wide, where they belong.
ETA: Please DON'T use Koppertox for thrush. It's very caustic and abrasive to new healthy tissue growing in. Soak in Oxine [which is the same thing as White Lightning] a few times a week, the rest of the time try to keep his feet clean and dry, and apply DuraSole to try to harden the soles up.
What I see in the pics is a horse that is in a wet environment and slightly overdue for a good trim. I do not see contracted or underrun heels whatsoever.
Edited by SuckerForHorses 2014-07-23 10:54 AM
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Career in Looney Tune Land
Posts: 1717
Location: the high desert | No worries there. As much as I appreciate everyone's advice, im not starting him on or doing anything to him till he has been seen by the vet. Im still looking for a good natural balance farrier but still not finding much.
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