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Veteran
Posts: 268
 
| Just wondering what people do for their bleeders without giving Lasix. I give a supplement high in vitamin C and has Rutin and Hesperidin complex as well. I also give a supplement to open airways like a breath aid as well. Seems to work....wondering what others do.... |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
 
Location: Tulsa, Ok | Our bleeder is on Special Arubic Powder, which I buy from a compounding pharmacy in AR , and K&C Plus by Cox Labs. He has been on this combo for 5+ years and never bled through. |
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Regular
Posts: 57
| I recently put my daughters good mare on Oxy2 and bleeder stop - I stopped using the Lasix and she seems to be doing well on these supplements. |
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 Texas Tenderheart
Posts: 6715
 
Location: Red Raiderland | How do y'all know that your horses aren't still bleeding on these supplements? I just had my mare bleed this weekend for the first time and in 30 days she will run on Lasix but I have been looking into other supplements. Just curious if anyone has had their horses scoped after a run with no lasix? Interesting subject.  |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Kaycee - 2014-07-21 7:30 PM How do y'all know that your horses aren't still bleeding on these supplements? I just had my mare bleed this weekend for the first time and in 30 days she will run on Lasix but I have been looking into other supplements. Just curious if anyone has had their horses scoped after a run with no lasix? Interesting subject.
I did, still bleeding internally so we run on lasix. Supplements did not work for me. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1094
Location: Florida | rodeomom3 - 2014-07-21 8:57 PM Kaycee - 2014-07-21 7:30 PM How do y'all know that your horses aren't still bleeding on these supplements? I just had my mare bleed this weekend for the first time and in 30 days she will run on Lasix but I have been looking into other supplements. Just curious if anyone has had their horses scoped after a run with no lasix? Interesting subject.
Same here, I have tried every "product" and herbal and actually scoped, horse was already showing signs. Not worth the risk, I wont run him with out lasix. |
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Texas Tenderheart
Posts: 6715
Location: Red Raiderland | bigbob - 2014-07-21 9:10 PM rodeomom3 - 2014-07-21 8:57 PM Kaycee - 2014-07-21 7:30 PM How do y'all know that your horses aren't still bleeding on these supplements? I just had my mare bleed this weekend for the first time and in 30 days she will run on Lasix but I have been looking into other supplements. Just curious if anyone has had their horses scoped after a run with no lasix? Interesting subject.
Yeah I would worry about the same thing. I did talk to a friend that runs on Lasix plus a supplement.
Oh well, just one more thing to add to my diva's care! She's worth it...I think..... |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| The supplements made mine bleed worse :/ |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7264
| You might try Shepard's Purse. |
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Veteran
Posts: 268
| Thanks for everyone's responses....what is Shepards's purse? Never heard of it... |
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 Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | rodeomom3 - 2014-07-20 8:57 PM Kaycee - 2014-07-21 7:30 PM How do y'all know that your horses aren't still bleeding on these supplements? I just had my mare bleed this weekend for the first time and in 30 days she will run on Lasix but I have been looking into other supplements. Just curious if anyone has had their horses scoped after a run with no lasix? Interesting subject.
When did you scoped after you ran..........right after..........week........ |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 538
Location: Central Texas | I used Silver Lining Herbs product called NoLasix. I kept my horse on it for 3 months. He ran a full weekend without any visible bleeding, and ran 3 consistent runs (even won an average saddle). He had been making a good run on day one, and then getting slower and slower on the next two days. I did try Lasix (3ml's 2-3 hours before I ran), and he did not run at all! His times that weekend were over a second slower than normal in that pen.
Good Luck! |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| CJE - 2014-07-22 10:38 AM rodeomom3 - 2014-07-20 8:57 PM Kaycee - 2014-07-21 7:30 PM How do y'all know that your horses aren't still bleeding on these supplements? I just had my mare bleed this weekend for the first time and in 30 days she will run on Lasix but I have been looking into other supplements. Just curious if anyone has had their horses scoped after a run with no lasix? Interesting subject.
Edited by rodeomom3 2014-07-22 11:14 AM
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 Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | txcajuncowgirl - 2014-07-22 10:46 AM I used Silver Lining Herbs product called NoLasix. I kept my horse on it for 3 months. He ran a full weekend without any visible bleeding, and ran 3 consistent runs (even won an average saddle). He had been making a good run on day one, and then getting slower and slower on the next two days. I did try Lasix (3ml's 2-3 hours before I ran), and he did not run at all! His times that weekend were over a second slower than normal in that pen.
Good Luck!
You may need to give more Lasix.. I have a friend that has to give 8cc's. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 538
Location: Central Texas | ACEINTHEHOLE - 2014-07-22 11:22 AM txcajuncowgirl - 2014-07-22 10:46 AM I used Silver Lining Herbs product called NoLasix. I kept my horse on it for 3 months. He ran a full weekend without any visible bleeding, and ran 3 consistent runs (even won an average saddle). He had been making a good run on day one, and then getting slower and slower on the next two days. I did try Lasix (3ml's 2-3 hours before I ran), and he did not run at all! His times that weekend were over a second slower than normal in that pen.
Good Luck! You may need to give more Lasix.. I have a friend that has to give 8cc's.
How will giving him more Lasix help when he would not run with a small amount? Medically that makes no sense.
I withheld the Lasix on the third day of the show that weekend and he ran closer to his normal time. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 539
Location: South East Kansas | Does any one give Lasix pills? If you do, how much time before you run do you give them?
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 Regular
Posts: 98
Location: Arkansas | 8cc is a lot. I have a friend who's horse will bleed without it. Her perfect number is 1/2cc. She gave 3 and the mare loped. Crazy that small of an amount makes a difference
I used a product called choice of champions lung aid and never bleed through. Its like $40 a month too. |
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| when some of you say bleed through, do you mean to where you can actually see it? I always thought if you can see the blood, it meant it was a bad deal, bad bleed. And just b/c you don't see it doesn't mean they don't bleed.....am I wrong?? anyone ever tried anything from THE for bleeders? |
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Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | txcajuncowgirl - 2014-07-22 11:39 AM ACEINTHEHOLE - 2014-07-22 11:22 AM txcajuncowgirl - 2014-07-22 10:46 AM I used Silver Lining Herbs product called NoLasix. I kept my horse on it for 3 months. He ran a full weekend without any visible bleeding, and ran 3 consistent runs (even won an average saddle). He had been making a good run on day one, and then getting slower and slower on the next two days. I did try Lasix (3ml's 2-3 hours before I ran), and he did not run at all! His times that weekend were over a second slower than normal in that pen.
Good Luck! You may need to give more Lasix.. I have a friend that has to give 8cc's.
I withheld the Lasix on the third day of the show that weekend and he ran closer to his normal time.
he very well could be bleeding through it, so it didn't help him and he couldn't run. If you up the dose, he might do better. Maybe he just didn't bleed the third day? Most people I know give at least 5cc's (obviously there will be some that can give less). |
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Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | Kathryn Hawkins - 2014-07-22 2:11 PM 8cc is a lot. I have a friend who's horse will bleed without it. Her perfect number is 1/2cc. She gave 3 and the mare loped. Crazy that small of an amount makes a difference I used a product called choice of champions lung aid and never bleed through. Its like $40 a month too.
I realize it's a lot, but he bleeds through 7cc. |
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  Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | Some horses do great on just change in diet and supplements. Some will always need lasix no matter what you do for them.
Every horse will be different and unfortunatley, the only way to find out is to try it. My vet asked me to use lasix no matter what when I first started my horse back into training. We had a plan to slowly wean him off lasix, while using supplements and diet changes, and then make a few runs and scope.
So far so good and he's never bled. I plan on having him scoped again before too long and will probably randomly scope him once or twice a year even if he's not showing signs. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | If I had a horse that bled through 7-8cc of lasix I would retire that horse plain and simple, their lungs obviously aren't strong enough to be running barrels and there's plenty of horses that will and can without all that.
That's only my opinion though.
I will not do anymore trial and error, lasix is the only know deterrent from bleeding. Everytime they bleed you compromise their lungs and health even more, causing scar tissue, possible infection, etc.
I believe certain supplements help, especially with the vitamin K but would not give up on the lasix, maybe just lower the dose. I only give 2.5-3cc at most. |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| RnRJack - 2014-07-23 5:26 PM
If I had a horse that bled through 7-8cc of lasix I would retire that horse plain and simple, their lungs obviously aren't strong enough to be running barrels and there's plenty of horses that will and can without all that.
That's only my opinion though.
I will not do anymore trial and error, lasix is the only know deterrent from bleeding. Everytime they bleed you compromise their lungs and health even more, causing scar tissue, possible infection, etc.
I believe certain supplements help, especially with the vitamin K but would not give up on the lasix, maybe just lower the dose. I only give 2.5-3cc at most.
That amount won't hurt the horse... Heck that's less that the hospital would give you if you were in need of lasix lol.. I know of a couple of horses that run on ten cc's |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7264
| http://www.racehorseherbal.com/Wild_Herbs/Shepherdspurse/shepherdspurse.html
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-23 4:16 AM RnRJack - 2014-07-23 5:26 PM If I had a horse that bled through 7-8cc of lasix I would retire that horse plain and simple, their lungs obviously aren't strong enough to be running barrels and there's plenty of horses that will and can without all that. That's only my opinion though. I will not do anymore trial and error, lasix is the only know deterrent from bleeding. Everytime they bleed you compromise their lungs and health even more, causing scar tissue, possible infection, etc. I believe certain supplements help, especially with the vitamin K but would not give up on the lasix, maybe just lower the dose. I only give 2.5-3cc at most. That amount won't hurt the horse... Heck that's less that the hospital would give you if you were in need of lasix lol.. I know of a couple of horses that run on ten cc's
yes but for what reason? to get rid of water is one thing but to control bleeders in lungs is another IMO.. its not the meds or the amount its th reason they need it would concern me to have to give that much.. how do we know it isnt affecting them at 10cc? because they do it and say so? or horse runs better? what damage long term is it doing? just curoius to a response.. |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Bibliafarm - 2014-07-23 7:36 AM aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-23 4:16 AM RnRJack - 2014-07-23 5:26 PM If I had a horse that bled through 7-8cc of lasix I would retire that horse plain and simple, their lungs obviously aren't strong enough to be running barrels and there's plenty of horses that will and can without all that. That's only my opinion though. I will not do anymore trial and error, lasix is the only know deterrent from bleeding. Everytime they bleed you compromise their lungs and health even more, causing scar tissue, possible infection, etc. I believe certain supplements help, especially with the vitamin K but would not give up on the lasix, maybe just lower the dose. I only give 2.5-3cc at most. That amount won't hurt the horse... Heck that's less that the hospital would give you if you were in need of lasix lol.. I know of a couple of horses that run on ten cc's
Mine runs on 2 1/2 cc given IM 2 hours out and lauwdy that small amount causes him to pee 4 or 5 times, I can't imagine what 10cc does. I have my guy scoped every year to check for any lung scarring, so far there is none. Bottom line with the supplements, unless you have scoped, you do not know if they are working. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | agree... 10cc can dehydrate them to and also tying up would be a concern for me.. I just would like to know when is enough enough.. 10cc is alot IMHO
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 317
Location: MS | It's been my experience that if you don't scope within a few hours you may not see the bleed.
I ran mine at midnight and had him scoped the next morning at 6:00.
The vet did not see any evidence of him bleeding.
He did bleed. He had a small trickle of blood in one nostril 2 hours after he ran. He just cleared it.
If I hadn't seen it we would not have known he bled.
I keep his head down after he runs to help make sure I see it if he bleeds.
He's also one that only lopes if you give him more than 3. |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | Giving a human lasix for a surgery or medical procedure or whatever the doctor prescribes it for one time is a lot different then giving a horse 7-10cc of lasix a few times a month... It is hard on their kidneys as it would be on ours as well, plus like above bbs have said it drains all electrolytes and other important minerals and vitamins that horses AND people need. They must be replenished immideately. I also have one that will not drink even after lasix so it takes him a while to come back.
I stand by my opinion on that is to much, if you're giving that much lasix I would suggest pulling blood panels quite often to make sure your horse is staying healthy.
I have scoped my horse 2 days later (bled on a Friday and scoped him Monday) and there was still dried up blood in his esophagus!! |
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 Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | I have tried several different herbs/supplements/etc and the only thing proven to work for my gelding is lasix. I won't run him without it. No longer will I experiment with his lung health. Yes, lasix isn't the best thing for one, but neither is bleeding everytime I try something "better" for him! He gets 3cc 4 hours out. |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| Bibliafarm - 2014-07-24 5:36 AM aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-23 4:16 AM RnRJack - 2014-07-23 5:26 PM If I had a horse that bled through 7-8cc of lasix I would retire that horse plain and simple, their lungs obviously aren't strong enough to be running barrels and there's plenty of horses that will and can without all that. That's only my opinion though. I will not do anymore trial and error, lasix is the only know deterrent from bleeding. Everytime they bleed you compromise their lungs and health even more, causing scar tissue, possible infection, etc. I believe certain supplements help, especially with the vitamin K but would not give up on the lasix, maybe just lower the dose. I only give 2.5-3cc at most. That amount won't hurt the horse... Heck that's less that the hospital would give you if you were in need of lasix lol.. I know of a couple of horses that run on ten cc's
that is the purpose of giving lazix is to get rid of fluid in the body... it will lower blood pressure which in turn helps with bleeding... LONG TERM damage??? unless you are using it every day there isnt much to worry about... people live on this stuff... |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-24 1:36 AM
Bibliafarm - 2014-07-24 5:36 AM aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-23 4:16 AM RnRJack - 2014-07-23 5:26 PM If I had a horse that bled through 7-8cc of lasix I would retire that horse plain and simple, their lungs obviously aren't strong enough to be running barrels and there's plenty of horses that will and can without all that. That's only my opinion though. I will not do anymore trial and error, lasix is the only know deterrent from bleeding. Everytime they bleed you compromise their lungs and health even more, causing scar tissue, possible infection, etc. I believe certain supplements help, especially with the vitamin K but would not give up on the lasix, maybe just lower the dose. I only give 2.5-3cc at most. That amount won't hurt the horse... Heck that's less that the hospital would give you if you were in need of lasix lol.. I know of a couple of horses that run on ten cc's
you missed my point but we all have opinions. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-24 1:36 AM
Bibliafarm - 2014-07-24 5:36 AM aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-23 4:16 AM RnRJack - 2014-07-23 5:26 PM If I had a horse that bled through 7-8cc of lasix I would retire that horse plain and simple, their lungs obviously aren't strong enough to be running barrels and there's plenty of horses that will and can without all that. That's only my opinion though. I will not do anymore trial and error, lasix is the only know deterrent from bleeding. Everytime they bleed you compromise their lungs and health even more, causing scar tissue, possible infection, etc. I believe certain supplements help, especially with the vitamin K but would not give up on the lasix, maybe just lower the dose. I only give 2.5-3cc at most. That amount won't hurt the horse... Heck that's less that the hospital would give you if you were in need of lasix lol.. I know of a couple of horses that run on ten cc's
you missed my point |
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 Expert
Posts: 1313
Location: Georgia | There are many reasons why horses bleed. In my opinion without scoping there is no way to tell if your horse is bleeding or not. Lasix is the only thing proven to really work against EIPH. I wouldnt risk the possible damage or infections that possible to playing with supplements that may or may not work. With that said.... I highly recommend Lung Aid for lung support and immune builder to help keep your horse healthy. Especially since the immune system and lungs are already compromised. If you want to read about it go to http://www.choiceofchamps.com/lung_aid.html and if you decide to give it a try use coupon code ( cockk) at checkout for 10% off and FREE shipping. |
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boon
Posts: 2
| RIP the nfr horse is on 10CC of lasix |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| RnRJack - 2014-07-23 10:38 AM Giving a human lasix for a surgery or medical procedure or whatever the doctor prescribes it for one time is a lot different then giving a horse 7-10cc of lasix a few times a month... It is hard on their kidneys as it would be on ours as well, plus like above bbs have said it drains all electrolytes and other important minerals and vitamins that horses AND people need. They must be replenished immideately. I also have one that will not drink even after lasix so it takes him a while to come back. I stand by my opinion on that is to much, if you're giving that much lasix I would suggest pulling blood panels quite often to make sure your horse is staying healthy. I have scoped my horse 2 days later (bled on a Friday and scoped him Monday) and there was still dried up blood in his esophagus!!
A lot of people are on lasix as a daily medication... |
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| missroselee - 2014-07-22 4:16 PM Some horses do great on just change in diet and supplements. Some will always need lasix no matter what you do for them.
Every horse will be different and unfortunatley, the only way to find out is to try it. My vet asked me to use lasix no matter what when I first started my horse back into training. We had a plan to slowly wean him off lasix, while using supplements and diet changes, and then make a few runs and scope.
So far so good and he's never bled. I plan on having him scoped again before too long and will probably randomly scope him once or twice a year even if he's not showing signs.
What were the diet changes and supplements you implemented? |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | It is a total crap shoot! Some horses can be managed sans lasix and some never will be. Example--we currently have two bleeders in our barn. Gelding is managed with a combo of Special Arubic Powder and K&C Plus. He has never bled thru in 10+ years. Mare on the same RX will bleed thru every time and hence always has lasix to run. The gelding was way way the worst bleeder when he did bleed. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 852
| aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-24 12:36 AM Bibliafarm - 2014-07-24 5:36 AM aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-23 4:16 AM RnRJack - 2014-07-23 5:26 PM If I had a horse that bled through 7-8cc of lasix I would retire that horse plain and simple, their lungs obviously aren't strong enough to be running barrels and there's plenty of horses that will and can without all that. That's only my opinion though. I will not do anymore trial and error, lasix is the only know deterrent from bleeding. Everytime they bleed you compromise their lungs and health even more, causing scar tissue, possible infection, etc. I believe certain supplements help, especially with the vitamin K but would not give up on the lasix, maybe just lower the dose. I only give 2.5-3cc at most. That amount won't hurt the horse... Heck that's less that the hospital would give you if you were in need of lasix lol.. I know of a couple of horses that run on ten cc's
Long term issues - tying up, anemia, higher incidence of bone fractures due to calcium being leeched out of their bones, kidney failure. Yes, there are serious side effects of long term use. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| weder - 2020-01-20 5:05 PM aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-24 12:36 AM Bibliafarm - 2014-07-24 5:36 AM aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-23 4:16 AM RnRJack - 2014-07-23 5:26 PM If I had a horse that bled through 7-8cc of lasix I would retire that horse plain and simple, their lungs obviously aren't strong enough to be running barrels and there's plenty of horses that will and can without all that. That's only my opinion though. I will not do anymore trial and error, lasix is the only know deterrent from bleeding. Everytime they bleed you compromise their lungs and health even more, causing scar tissue, possible infection, etc. I believe certain supplements help, especially with the vitamin K but would not give up on the lasix, maybe just lower the dose. I only give 2.5-3cc at most. That amount won't hurt the horse... Heck that's less that the hospital would give you if you were in need of lasix lol.. I know of a couple of horses that run on ten cc's Long term issues - tying up, anemia, higher incidence of bone fractures due to calcium being leeched out of their bones, kidney failure. Yes, there are serious side effects of long term use. There is also long term effects from other medications... Dex also affects calcium absorption, causes laminitis and if stopped abruptly it affects cortisol levels. Omeprazole is also proven to effect calcium absorption. Bute and other NSAIDs obviously affect gut and kidney health. Intra articular corticosteroids can cause laminitis and infection when placed in the joint not aseptically enough. Osphos delays bone healing. There is a risk in everything we give our horse and ourselves!!! Management and dosing under the care of vet is the most important thing! Research States the importance of following up with a good electrolyte for a few days post dosing lasix. I have patients on daily lasix for congestive heart failure and they are not told about taking extra electrolytes or vitamins to replace the ones that are leached out after taking it! Lastly people always want to go herbal or the natural route... But they forget that even things in nature can harm us and is poisonous! Just a thought...
Edited by WetSaddleBlankets 2020-01-21 4:37 AM
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Veteran
Posts: 109
| I have a light bleeder, he has bled out on 3 different occasions. Per 3 different vets, I run him on a dex/bananime coctail that I give 1.5 hours prior to running. I also feed him RaceToday which in my case has helped tremendiously. If it is super hot and humid I will run him on 2cc of lasix, however lasix makes him very sluggish and he will not fire at all. But this is what works for us. I will say that the best thing you can do for your horse is to make sure they are in tip top shape |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 852
| WetSaddleBlankets - 2020-01-20 8:50 PM
weder - 2020-01-20 5:05 PM
aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-24 12:36 AM Bibliafarm - 2014-07-24 5:36 AM aqhabarrelchic1 - 2014-07-23 4:16 AM RnRJack - 2014-07-23 5:26 PM If I had a horse that bled through 7-8cc of lasix I would retire that horse plain and simple, their lungs obviously aren't strong enough to be running barrels and there's plenty of horses that will and can without all that. That's only my opinion though. I will not do anymore trial and error, lasix is the only know deterrent from bleeding. Everytime they bleed you compromise their lungs and health even more, causing scar tissue, possible infection, etc. I believe certain supplements help, especially with the vitamin K but would not give up on the lasix, maybe just lower the dose. I only give 2.5-3cc at most. That amount won't hurt the horse... Heck that's less that the hospital would give you if you were in need of lasix lol.. I know of a couple of horses that run on ten cc's
Long term issues - tying up, anemia, higher incidence of bone fractures due to calcium being leeched out of their bones, kidney failure. Yes, there are serious side effects of long term use.
There is also long term effects from other medications... Dex also affects calcium absorption, causes laminitis and if stopped abruptly it affects cortisol levels. Omeprazole is also proven to effect calcium absorption. Bute and other NSAIDs obviously affect gut and kidney health. Intra articular corticosteroids can cause laminitis and infection when placed in the joint not aseptically enough. Osphos delays bone healing. There is a risk in everything we give our horse and ourselves!!! Management and dosing under the care of vet is the most important thing! Research States the importance of following up with a good electrolyte for a few days post dosing lasix. I have patients on daily lasix for congestive heart failure and they are not told about taking extra electrolytes or vitamins to replace the ones that are leached out after taking it! Lastly people always want to go herbal or the natural route... But they forget that even things in nature can harm us and is poisonous! Just a thought...
I absolutely agree! My response was to the comment that there isn't long term damage to think about. But you are absolutely correct...there is long term effects to ANY medication that is used regularily. It is best to be aware and educate yourself about these effects. Burying your head in the sand and saying there is no effects to think about is irresponsible, in my opinion.  |
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Managing Bleeders without Lasix