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Expert
Posts: 2685
   
| I know you see a million barrel pictures everywhere but I wanted opinions.
Hypothetical: you have a horse that when you run to the 1st barrel you feel as though you have to rate the horse manually (two handed bump, sit hard, grab horn), sit and pull to your belly button/ pocket then look up and when the horse is facing 2 then give the face back and go on (not pull hard but have constant pressure) then when you get to 2nd the horse is very ratey to you feel like you have to push push push all the way across, grab your horn and with your inside hand pushed forward and only guide the horse on the very back side just barely applying pressure only if you have to for the horse to finish then the horse runs pretty freely to 3 and you feel like you have to manually rate, but not pull all the way around just guide on the backside like 2 but have more pressure to keep your horse focused on turning longer rather than launchin too soon.
NOW lol. Bare with me.
When you watch this run the horse runs a little by the 1st but not bad and doesn't finish it like it should. The horse inhales the 2nd and as long as the horse rates the 3rd and isn't pushed real hard (kinda free runnin) to the 3rd will inhale it also.
NOW lol. Again bare with, the horse DOES have a lameness issue that would inhibit the horse from finishing the 1st barrel properly.
BUT once that issue is fixed (currently being fixed) would you go back and reiterate rate and turn during slow work and try to turn that first barrel like say your 3rd? I mean by just rating the horse (if need be) and try just guiding the horse on the backside with a more forward hand position instead of a pull to your pocket hand position?
Let's add in there that this hypothetical :) horse has enough dry work to be ridden with a shoe string and probably accomplish a novice reinin pattern lol. Like take away any patterns and will rate off of seat, turn off of body position, "spin" (slowly lol) off leg pressure ect.
Sorry it's long. I hope it makes sense... I'm hypothetically (lol) trying to get a plan of action. I have nothing finished to ride :( I miss my "good" horse.
ETA: I prob didn't make it clear through all the mind vomiting but I am not riding the horse currently. She is off for at least 2-3 mos. She will be off until I get the 100% ok to ride. Like 100% pasture pet off.
Edited by RoaniePonie11 2014-08-01 4:08 AM
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 Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
Location: Texas | Okay I have a horse that for a year I just dealt with the fact that he would never turn the first barrel. I just did lots of slow work and I have been doing alot of stopping and backing up to the first barrel and his first barrel has been perfect everywhere I've taken him since march, now its just hard trusting him but im finally gonna push him on saturday to the first and hopefully have enough confidence to get it right. I have seen the stopping and backing up method work on multiple horses and you have to do it everytime you work barrels at home. Even if you stop and backup and then run to 2nd and 3rd thats fine but I've found this to work best. |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| Thank you. I figured for my sanity I would go back and do stuff like that to get her used to the feeling that it's not going to hurt (if rating ever did) and to build my confidence. I now have a mental problem because I'm afraid she's never going to turn the barrel on her own but I know a ton of it has todo with her lameness issue so hopefully once it's fixed I can do some slow stuff and get to enjoying her. I just want to go about it the right way. I have nerves about the 1st on every horse now 0.o |
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Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
Location: Texas | RoaniePonie11 - 2014-08-01 3:34 AM Thank you. I figured for my sanity I would go back and do stuff like that to get her used to the feeling that it's not going to hurt (if rating ever did) and to build my confidence. I now have a mental problem because I'm afraid she's never going to turn the barrel on her own but I know a ton of it has todo with her lameness issue so hopefully once it's fixed I can do some slow stuff and get to enjoying her. I just want to go about it the right way. I have nerves about the 1st on every horse now 0.o
Yup me too! Im seriously just scared to run to the first lol but im slowly getting over it! My horse also had hock/stifle problems so im sure getting that fixed has helped a ton too. If you do the stopping/backing up you just really have to stick to it. It does nothing if you break your streak but I promise your horse will start to rate so hard you have to push to the first! thats what I think happened with mine, he rates so much on the first that he doesn't get his momentum back to get to the 2nd lol because we've been loping to the first, hopefully I get that one figured out this weekend |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | The horse has a lameness issue? But still running? I'm confused, if the horse is lame, should it be running?
I was always taught to pull out and around, not lift, bringing reins to your belly button would signal whoa or stopping, I've always just twisted my hips and pulled down and around, that way your have your horses nose and when they give to it you're not really pulling on them you're just helping and guiding them around, but mine are very light and haven't needed to be pulled on. A little bump before the barrel helps if they don't feel like they are going to rate. It's like doing little half halts, like an English rider.
Here's how I like my hand positioning (if I can help it I almost always keep my hands low and guide around in the turn. I keep my elbows open more.
Here's me with what I think is bad hand positioning - pulling straight back and as you can see he's just bracing against it
I ride and exercise my horses and ride new colts in split reins I think it really helps open up your arms/elbows and teaches good hands |
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Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
Location: Texas | RnRJack - 2014-08-01 3:53 AM The horse has a lameness issue? But still running? I'm confused, if the horse is lame, should it be running? I was always taught to pull out and around, not lift, bringing reins to your belly button would signal whoa or stopping, I've always just twisted my hips and pulled down and around, that way your have your horses nose and when they give to it you're not really pulling on them you're just helping and guiding them around, but mine are very light and haven't needed to be pulled on. A little bump before the barrel helps if they don't feel like they are going to rate. It's like doing little half halts, like an English rider. Here's how I like my hand positioning (if I can help it I almost always keep my hands low and guide around in the turn. I keep my elbows open more. Here's me with what I think is bad hand positioning - pulling straight back and as you can see he's just bracing against it I ride and exercise my horses and ride new colts in split reins I think it really helps open up your arms/elbows and teaches good hands
Edited by outrundaizy 2014-08-01 4:12 AM
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| Thank you!
The horse is a pasture ornament that's being Dr.d until she is 100%. I added that just now cause I'm sure it doesn't say that in the post. I was typing so fast to try to keep up with my brain. I won't get back on her until I get the OK.
Thank you for your pictures. On my 2nd barrel my hand is always real close to her neck not pulling anywhere but if you look at my 1st & 3rd I'm pulling to my belly button like you said almost pulling straight back. I need to start gettin in the habit of pulling to the side more to turn and keeping my hand more forward. I never thought of using spilt reins to help with that. I do ride more forward with my hands with splits. |
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 pressure dripper
Posts: 8699
Location: the end of the rainbow | Do you ride with knotted reins or have a markbwhere your inside hand is on the rein during a turn? Your horses front feet. follow that hand. At a walk put your inside hand on the rein get horn and position your body exactly like you would while turning a barrel during a run. Now drop that inside hand down and pull to the inside. What do your horses front feet do? Most will stop forward motion, plant their butt and start a spin. Now try the same thing with your hand by their neck then coming back to your belt buckle? The lift their shoulder, shorten their stride and arc their body making a nice round turn. Then slide your hand forward up their neck, they quicken their stride.Your inside hand is your shoulder control. Most of the time if your drop that hand down in to the well of your turn the horse will start to drop their shoulder. |
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Expert
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | willrodeo4food - 2014-08-01 11:17 AM
Do you ride with knotted reins or have a markbwhere your inside hand is on the rein during a turn? Your horses front feet. follow that hand. At a walk put your inside hand on the rein get horn and position your body exactly like you would while turning a barrel during a run. Now drop that inside hand down and pull to the inside. What do your horses front feet do? Most will stop forward motion, plant their butt and start a spin. Now try the same thing with your hand by their neck then coming back to your belt buckle? The lift their shoulder, shorten their stride and arc their body making a nice round turn. Then slide your hand forward up their neck, they quicken their stride.Your inside hand is your shoulder control. Most of the time if your drop that hand down in to the well of your turn the horse will start to drop their shoulder.
That would be my hand position just before my turn to shape them and keep that shoulder up |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | Outrundaizy: the first pic looks like your holding him off of the barrel but you have his nose and him bent so he's not dropping his shoulder, mine will turn that close too but I like a little more momentum so they don't slow down around the barrel |
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Impressive!!
Posts: 1954
Location: Idaho | I don't like to pull. I ride with Sue Smith's style, trained by her good friend, Jana Perry and I firmly believe that you do best by "guiding" and making sure that shoulder is elevated so they can engage their hip. I like to lift and keep my hand forward, not pull back, or pull out. I do not like to see my hand near my belly botton. I'll add some pictures to show my position. I am the type of trainer/rider who likes to do as little as possible. I like to melt in my seat and have my horses start melting into their pocket. I know with colts you have to help a bit more and yes I do have a couple free runners that I have to "check" but its more of a pick up, instead of a pull back. The less I have to do , the better. 
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Duct Tape Bikini Girl
Posts: 2554
| My goal, which must be impossible, is to keep my rein thumb up and my upper arm against or near my trunk. If I do that, I am lifting and not pulling my horse. |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | I also think it depends on the bit, some bits your cannot lift, like a stop and turn or quick stop. I learned Kim Landry style and then worked with a trainer that rides more round so I've created my own style, I've always like a snappy horse and a straighter style, but it also depends on the horse.
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Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
Location: Texas | RnRJack - 2014-08-01 10:06 PM I also think it depends on the bit, some bits your cannot lift, like a stop and turn or quick stop. I learned Kim Landry style and then worked with a trainer that rides more round so I've created my own style, I've always like a snappy horse and a straighter style, but it also depends on the horse.
I will say I disagree with this... I don't think the bit has anything to do with it. Maybe to some extent, but the rider and horses styles have to match. Generally you put horses in bits/hacks based on their style and based on what the riders style works best with. If your horse has to run in a quick stop or stop and turn I don't think it should be running.
In my picture post I was simply explaining how I changed my horses style. He was all go go go and now I have to push him. Both pictures those runs earned me $600+ each in the 1D at big races. Both styles work and I was lucky enough to have a horse that has mastered both. The op was asking how to get her horse closer to the first barrel ( thats how I read it anyways) and in all of your pictures your horses are not super close to the barrel, again not saying thats a bad thing, I just thought she wanted to get more rate there for I explained my training method and showed my proof by pictures. |
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Expert
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | outrundaizy - 2014-08-01 11:27 PM
RnRJack - 2014-08-01 10:06 PM I also think it depends on the bit, some bits your cannot lift, like a stop and turn or quick stop. I learned Kim Landry style and then worked with a trainer that rides more round so I've created my own style, I've always like a snappy horse and a straighter style, but it also depends on the horse.
I will say I disagree with this... I don't think the bit has anything to do with it. Maybe to some extent, but the rider and horses styles have to match. Generally you put horses in bits/hacks based on their style and based on what the riders style works best with. If your horse has to run in a quick stop or stop and turn I don't think it should be running.
In my picture post I was simply explaining how I changed my horses style. He was all go go go and now I have to push him. Both pictures those runs earned me $600+ each in the 1D at big races. Both styles work and I was lucky enough to have a horse that has mastered both. The op was asking how to get her horse closer to the first barrel ( thats how I read it anyways) and in all of your pictures your horses are not super close to the barrel, again not saying thats a bad thing, I just thought she wanted to get more rate there for I explained my training method and showed my proof by pictures.
I was responding to hand position, maybe I didn't read it thoroughly but I was just giving my input or advice, everyone is different, rides different, trains different etc. I have also won lots of $$ with my horses but run a different style, I'm only trying to help.
Also, the bit is only as harsh as the hand, I know a very well respected rodeo girl I ride with who only rides in those quick stops but she has the lightest hands ever. |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | Here's a better pic, mine will turn on top of a barrel too lol
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  Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| outrundaizy - 2014-08-01 11:27 PM RnRJack - 2014-08-01 10:06 PM I also think it depends on the bit, some bits your cannot lift, like a stop and turn or quick stop. I learned Kim Landry style and then worked with a trainer that rides more round so I've created my own style, I've always like a snappy horse and a straighter style, but it also depends on the horse. I will say I disagree with this... I don't think the bit has anything to do with it. Maybe to some extent, but the rider and horses styles have to match. Generally you put horses in bits/hacks based on their style and based on what the riders style works best with. If your horse has to run in a quick stop or stop and turn I don't think it should be running.
In my picture post I was simply explaining how I changed my horses style. He was all go go go and now I have to push him. Both pictures those runs earned me $600+ each in the 1D at big races. Both styles work and I was lucky enough to have a horse that has mastered both. The op was asking how to get her horse closer to the first barrel ( thats how I read it anyways) and in all of your pictures your horses are not super close to the barrel, again not saying thats a bad thing, I just thought she wanted to get more rate there for I explained my training method and showed my proof by pictures.
The bit does affect how you need to place your hands on a particular horse. If I feel a horse needs a "stiffer" bit for some reason, I am going to use my hands differently with that but than, say, a Loomis gag. And yes with a quick stop, your hands will need to be different than with other bits.
I don't think any of this falls under a specific "right" or "wrong", I just think there are many ways to skin a cat and each situation is different. |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | bennie1 - 2014-08-02 8:13 AM
outrundaizy - 2014-08-01 11:27 PM RnRJack - 2014-08-01 10:06 PM I also think it depends on the bit, some bits your cannot lift, like a stop and turn or quick stop. I learned Kim Landry style and then worked with a trainer that rides more round so I've created my own style, I've always like a snappy horse and a straighter style, but it also depends on the horse. I will say I disagree with this... I don't think the bit has anything to do with it. Maybe to some extent, but the rider and horses styles have to match. Generally you put horses in bits/hacks based on their style and based on what the riders style works best with. If your horse has to run in a quick stop or stop and turn I don't think it should be running.
In my picture post I was simply explaining how I changed my horses style. He was all go go go and now I have to push him. Both pictures those runs earned me $600+ each in the 1D at big races. Both styles work and I was lucky enough to have a horse that has mastered both. The op was asking how to get her horse closer to the first barrel ( thats how I read it anyways) and in all of your pictures your horses are not super close to the barrel, again not saying thats a bad thing, I just thought she wanted to get more rate there for I explained my training method and showed my proof by pictures.
I don't think any of this falls under a specific "right" or "wrong", I just think there are many ways to skin a cat and each situation is different.
I concur 100%
I know a 1d horse around here and the girl lifts her hand real high around each barrel because the horSe is jam up and turns it on his own, I guess that's just the way I was taught and the way I teach and train, I ride a lot of colts so I constantly have to guide them so it's instilled in me. It's hard giving advice on here but I hope the OP found what she asked and I didn't confuse everyone lol! |
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 Veteran
Posts: 253
Location: SoCal | My young mare was having a lot of first barrel problems, whether she just wouldn't rate and would blow though the turn, or if she'd get caught up and just ended up out of position coming out, but I went back and picked a different line going into the barrel that was a lot more curve to it, and brought my rate point farther back (during practice if she got too forward, I'd add in more rate points), and then I've just let her go into the turn, and only lightly guided her though it. She's been eating the turn up and it has become her most fluid turn. With a lot of speed coming into the pattern, I do have to bump her with my inside rein (typically picking up to get make sure her shoulder stays up), but then I try to get my hand forward and out of her way of turning. I feel like Dena Kirkpatrick's One Smooth Motion videos (there are a few first barrel ones on youtube) really helped me smooth out that first turn and allowed my horse to come out of the turn in the correct position. I try to watch a lot of trainers and take bits and pieces, but for first barrel stuff, I really like Dena. Best of luck and I hope you find something that works! |
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 Saint Stacey
| JMHO but pulling out is a bad thing to do. Reason being is that most bits are not designed to work this way. The shank ends up pinching the corner of the mouth when most bits are used like this Have someone hold the crown of the headstall while you hold the reins. Pull one rein out and watch what happens. Then try pulling on rein slightly back and watch the difference in the action. What way do you are think helps the horse more after doing this? |
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Location: Oregon | SKM - 2014-08-02 4:00 PM JMHO but pulling out is a bad thing to do. Reason being is that most bits are not designed to work this way. The shank ends up pinching the corner of the mouth when most bits are used like this Have someone hold the crown of the headstall while you hold the reins. Pull one rein out and watch what happens. Then try pulling on rein slightly back and watch the difference in the action. What way do you are think helps the horse more after doing this?
I agree with this 100%. I pull to my belly button but it seems the majority pulls out sideways towards the barrel... to each their own |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| So I don't know if anyone is interested in this but I spent a ton of time watching NFR runs to see how they did it. Sherry Cervi tends to lift or just barely guide her mare coming out if anything. The big gelding she rode in 12 she did more "turning" with. Most of the other girls pull towards where they want their horse to go at some point in the turn. Not all but most. Like going into it they may lift but halfway through they may bring their hand out towards the barrel asking their horse to come on around. Always forward though, never back like my hands are. |
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Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
Location: Texas | RoaniePonie11 - 2014-08-02 10:43 PM So I don't know if anyone is interested in this but I spent a ton of time watching NFR runs to see how they did it. Sherry Cervi tends to lift or just barely guide her mare coming out if anything. The big gelding she rode in 12 she did more "turning" with. Most of the other girls pull towards where they want their horse to go at some point in the turn. Not all but most. Like going into it they may lift but halfway through they may bring their hand out towards the barrel asking their horse to come on around. Always forward though, never back like my hands are.
I feel like this brings up another point. You always want forward hand motion through the turn whether you pull out or just hold them through the turn. If you are pulling back the horse will be less snappy and get caught up going around the turn. Maybe your mare has enough rate and the pulling back is whats throwing her off? |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| I'm thinkin I agree with you there. With her lameness issue causing problems at the first barrel it's hard to trust her or any horse now to turn it. I rode a different horse yesterday showing it to sell it and when I worked the barrels I kinda pzulled on her face at the first barrel (very ratey very stubborn if you even touch her face) and she gave me the bird and loped a big ole circle around it lol. On the 2nd and 3rd I just kinda lifted when we got there and put my hand forward and just made sure she finished them. The 2nd time around at the 1st I really focused on my pocket, bumped up like lifting and rating her when we got there and really sat down hard and she came right around. Inhaled the other 2 again doing the same. I think riding this mare will help my muscle memory. She's 10 and very honest like will do whatever it is you say whenever you say it so if you tell her wrong- YOU KNOW IT lol. But if you tell her right will lay down a nice run. I want to buy her lol. I'm just the jockey at the moment. I also have a 3yo that is trotting the pattern and we loped it for the first time yesterday that I HAVE to be very forward with because the moment you quit pushing- she dies lol. So that's also helpin me. I don't want to put a flame under her butt until she's more solid and we are taking it good and slow for both of us. |
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