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Location: Willows, CA | I see a lot of questions about supplement use on this site. The question of "have you tried this, or have you tried that" is a loaded one. There is so much more to the horses digestive system function than a lot of people are considering. How one supplement works for one horse related to the rest of its diet and specific needs can have very little to do with how it will work in a different horse on a different diet. Probiotics are one example. You may get a very positive result with a probiotic in a horse that has a challenged digestive system or a poor basic diet, and see no change at all in a horse that has a system and diet that allows that horse to maintain a proper hind gut function on its own. A balanced complete feeding program that generates as much of the horses energy needs from its roughage source will limit the need for additional concentrate in the diet. This in turn eliminates disruption down stream in the system and allows a more consistent environment in the hind gut resulting in more efficient digestion of the roughage. This also results in more consistent immune function which in turn limits allergic reactions. None of this is possible without the horses teeth being able to chew properly, which is how the roughage is conditioned to be digested in the first place, and can determine how much saliva is produced, which can buffer stomach acid and effect ulcers. You can see how interrelated all of this is. In many cases that is why one person will say "I tried X and it worked great for me" and another says "don't waste your money". We need to get the horses digestive system functional to that horses potential before we really will know if additional supplements are a benefit or totally unnecessary. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| You are forgetting not all horses are created equal, just like people, some medications will work for some, and not for others. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | That is my point. Not all horses are the same for a number of reasons, and why I mentioned getting the horses system to function to it's potential. That absolute potential is obviously not the same in every horse. However, evolution is an amazing thing. The vast majority respond to a diet that fits the way they evolved to function. A diet that does not fit the system may still work, just not to the individuals maximum potential. The closer a diet is to a proper digestive "fit" the closer to efficient energy production the horse is, and the less artificial support is necessary to get a positive result. |
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 Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | Are you selling a product? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | ok... |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | I am stating a point. I do have a feeding program for horses, and as such have done direct customer feeding programs for over twenty-five years. I am simply stating that one persons result does not necessarily have a lot of value to everyone else unless they are working under the same exact conditions. And even then, as was pointed out above, not all horses have the same response to supplements. My point was, and is, that we feed horses into trouble, and then try to supplement them out. Better not to feed them into trouble to begin with. |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | I cringe when I see posts and owners have horses on several supplements. My guess is some have no idea why. Just someone said so ..keep it simple ..great feeding program( grain or oats)...quality hay. Electrolytes. Water. Unless vet prescribes for a condition |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| winwillows - 2014-08-11 1:11 PM
That is my point. Not all horses are the same for a number of reasons, and why I mentioned getting the horses system to function to it's potential. That absolute potential is obviously not the same in every horse. However, evolution is an amazing thing. The vast majority respond to a diet that fits the way they evolved to function. A diet that does not fit the system may still work, just not to the individuals maximum potential. The closer a diet is to a proper digestive "fit" the closer to efficient energy production the horse is, and the less artificial support is necessary to get a positive result.
Excellant explanations ! Thank you.  |
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Location: Bigfoot Country | ok....but how do you come to this conclusion? do you do blood work to see where the horse is lacking? hair analysis?
thanks |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | This is a great thread and I'm glad someone is finally saying this!! So many people do not have good feeding programs for their horses and therefore expect a single supplement to fix everything. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Blood work is more reliable in my opinion. Even though it only tells you what happened to be going past the needle when it was drawn. Still a pretty good overview. I typically do blood once per year on our performance horses. Once a horses system is on track, that blood work rarely changes. For those who never do blood, most healthy bright horses in proper fit usually will have the blood work to match. Remember, when the modern horse evolved, there was no place it could go to the supplement pile to stock up. A proper forage based diet met all of it's nutritional needs. We ask our horses for more. So some additional energy can be required to remain fit. The best answer to that additional energy is to use a energy dense feed source that disrupts the system as little as possible. In addition, we need to see that fat soluble vitamins are supplied, and that historic regional shortages in minerals are addressed. Beyond that, a healthy hind gut will take care of the needed water soluble vitamins, and maintain a properly functioning immune system. In addition, I add a salt source. It does not have to be more complicated than that.
Edited by winwillows 2014-08-11 2:00 PM
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Expert
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| I have tried everything. But I finally did a hair analysis and it was spot on as far as what supplements are needed. I used Renew Gold but it didn't work for my horse. She coliced and was having ulcer issues. The vet thinks the colic was caused by stress from what the Shoer did to get feet. She also had no energy. I talked to my vet and he suggested Ultium, Alfalfa and flax seed. I also am feeding Herbs. |
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 Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | Speaking of supplements. They sent me some samples of Triple Crown Omega Max, rice bran oil and Fish Oil supplement when we won 2nd place in the photo contest. I noticed a difference with just my limited amount to feed and am going to purchase some in the future. Also, the TCOM tasted really good. |
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Expert
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Location: Willows, CA | readytorodeo - 2014-08-11 2:19 PM
I have tried everything. But I finally did a hair analysis and it was spot on as far as what supplements are needed. I used Renew Gold but it didn't work for my horse. She coliced and was having ulcer issues. The vet thinks the colic was caused by stress from what the Shoer did to get feet. She also had no energy. I talked to my vet and he suggested Ultium, Alfalfa and flax seed. I also am feeding Herbs.
We'll, there you are. Simple diet. Sounds like a lot going on. Shoeing colic is not very common. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| winwillows - 2014-08-11 2:45 PM
readytorodeo - 2014-08-11 2:19 PM
I have tried everything. But I finally did a hair analysis and it was spot on as far as what supplements are needed. I used Renew Gold but it didn't work for my horse. She coliced and was having ulcer issues. The vet thinks the colic was caused by stress from what the Shoer did to get feet. She also had no energy. I talked to my vet and he suggested Ultium, Alfalfa and flax seed. I also am feeding Herbs.
We'll, there you are. Simple diet. Sounds like a lot going on. Shoeing colic is not very common.
How do you know this horse is on a simple diet, the owner says she is giving herbs, it could be a few different herbs or it could be 50 different herbs. |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| cheryl makofka - 2014-08-11 3:26 PM winwillows - 2014-08-11 2:45 PM readytorodeo - 2014-08-11 2:19 PM I have tried everything. But I finally did a hair analysis and it was spot on as far as what supplements are needed. I used Renew Gold but it didn't work for my horse. She coliced and was having ulcer issues. The vet thinks the colic was caused by stress from what the Shoer did to get feet. She also had no energy. I talked to my vet and he suggested Ultium, Alfalfa and flax seed. I also am feeding Herbs. We'll, there you are. Simple diet. Sounds like a lot going on. Shoeing colic is not very common. How do you know this horse is on a simple diet, the owner says she is giving herbs, it could be a few different herbs or it could be 50 different herbs.
I am feeding a combination of herbs. To heal the issues she was having. I may try the Renew Gold later on . Now I'm only feeding alfalfa for hay. |
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Expert
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Location: Willows, CA | I don't usually see 50 herbs in a diet. But then again, I do see a lot of things that make it hard to tell what is helping and what is not helping. Herbs really fit into the category of vastly different effects depending on the individual horse. I used to spend months every year working in the UK with three day eventers. Hilton Herbs was a very popular brand there and a lot of the horses I worked with were on them. Results that could be related to herbs were all over the board. I have a very high regard for Sherry Cervi's opinion on what is working with her horses and she is a fan of Silver Linings. The rest of the diet we do for Stingray's energy production is very simple. All that aside, if I were going down that road, it would be slowly and not with a bunch of different herbs at once. |
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Expert
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| Are you talking about top feed suppliments or nutritional / nutracutical products?? There is a huge difference. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Where US labeled products for consumption is concerned, in US law the term nutraceutical has no meaning. Depending on its ingredients and the claims with which it is marketed, a product is regulated as one of the following. Drug, dietary supplement, food ingredient, or food. There is no legal regulation on the use of the word, so just about any product for consumption can use the term. From a practical point, it is usually used to refer to a product that is refined from one or more food ingredients that has a therapeutic use or effect in treating or preventing a disease. That is not to say that there are not products that have a drug, or therapeutic effect on horses. Just saying that it is a misleading term for some supplement products and needs to be looked at with caution. My point on uncomplicated diets refers to all supplementation, nutraceutical or not. I am not saying that supplements are wrong. I have formulated many for companies like Absorbine, Miracle Corp and ADM and feel that they served their purpose well. It is the combination of a crazy number of supplements without understanding the result that may lead to unintended consequences. |
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Expert
Posts: 4652
| I disagree. But that's my own opinion of having formulated continually for 19 years. When someone has a problem and they send me a CBC and a Chem panel I can see deficiencies and I can formulate a product for that specific animal and human. That's a Dietary supplement ( nutraceutical) and I would not include that product in what you are describing, But that's my own opinion having formulated for horse owners, numerous Vet's and hundreds of MD all over the world.
Edited by Bob 2014-08-11 5:32 PM
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| I definitely agree with winwillows. I have switched all my horses to alfalfa pellets (3-6 lbs), free choice coastal, and 1-2 lbs of mannapro (which he helped formulate). I can't afford Renew Gold in the region I currently live. The only 'supplement' they get is SmartGut Ultra, and Forco. The ones in heavy work get 1-2 lbs Ultium daily. They look phenomenal, feel great, and it was a very simple, very inexpensive switch. It brought one horse back from the dead, and fitted two others that were mediocre at best. Their feet grow extra quick, I've gone to 5 week shoeing due to the quicker rate of growth. Manes and tails are needing scissor action due to the quick growth, dragging the ground!
I made this switch in January of this year. I got on the Forco and SmartGut abou 2 months ago. I can't believe the difference I'm seeing in less than a year. Less has definitely been more! |
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Expert
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Location: Willows, CA | Bob
What you are doing is certainly different from the point that I am making here. Addressing tested, proven deficiencies in the diet is much different than adding supplementation simply based on someone else's results with a certain supplement in their horse. That was the point of my post in the first place, and goes for your product, mine or anyone else's. On another track, while formulating from existing blood work may result it a very positive improvement in a horses health in it's current situation. Fixing the diet to begin with and then formulating supplementation, if needed, based on an optimized digestive system and function may well provide an even better result. I would guess that someone using your talents to support a normal functioning digestive and immune system would only benefit more from the support. |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bob - 2014-08-11 5:30 PM
I disagree. But that's my own opinion of having formulated continually for 19 years. When someone has a problem and they send me a CBC and a Chem panel I can see deficiencies and I can formulate a product for that specific animal and human. That's a Dietary supplement ( nutraceutical) and I would not include that product in what you are describing,
But that's my own opinion having formulated for horse owners, numerous Vet's and hundreds of MD all over the world.
And it was you that figured out what was wrong with my horse after numerous trips to different vets and lots of money spent for zero results. I still find it amazing how many vets really can't read a blood chem panel.
I have been a customer since 2005 and I like that I can target a specific probem without overloading on all other kinds of ingredients that aren't needed. IMO there is a huge difference in a supplement and the THE nutraceuticals.  |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Bob - 2014-08-11 6:30 PM
I disagree. But that's my own opinion of having formulated continually for 19 years. When someone has a problem and they send me a CBC and a Chem panel I can see deficiencies and I can formulate a product for that specific animal and human. That's a Dietary supplement ( nutraceutical) and I would not include that product in what you are describing, But that's my own opinion having formulated for horse owners, numerous Vet's and hundreds of MD all over the world.
I agree with Bob. When owners have labs blood etc. And a formula is designed it is beneficial. I am talking the owners that feed several different things together that actually will do more harm then good. Have vet draw blood. Figure out what horse needs then have Bob make one that is custom to your horse. That way its not overkill..several products. Can be toxic buildup if given to much and to many randomly. |
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 Bye-Bye Jiggle
Posts: 1691
Location: Where ever there's sunshine! | cheryl makofka - 2014-08-11 12:40 PM
You are forgetting not all horses are created equal, just like people, some medications will work for some, and not for others.
Interesting you say that...."they're all different" is exactly what I got out of the post |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| BleuIdGrl - 2014-08-11 6:50 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-08-11 12:40 PM
You are forgetting not all horses are created equal, just like people, some medications will work for some, and not for others.
Interesting you say that...."they're all different" is exactly what I got out of the post
Out of the first post, I got, if your horse needs supplements, then your horse is having gut problems, absorption issues, or as I have heard one holistic person call a leaky gut, fix the gut problems then you won't need the supplements. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Well, I make supplements so I clearly don't think that they are never useful or even at times necessary. The point is that too much suplementation is both unnecessary nor is it beneficial if the horse has a diet that does not disrupt proper efficiency and function. Fix the diet, then provide additional nutrition in the smallest least disruptive way. The result is always a less stressful horse, a better immune system, fewer vet visits, and no colic risk. |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7268
| Nevertooold - 2014-08-11 6:40 PM Bob - 2014-08-11 5:30 PM
I disagree. But that's my own opinion of having formulated continually for 19 years. When someone has a problem and they send me a CBC and a Chem panel I can see deficiencies and I can formulate a product for that specific animal and human. That's a Dietary supplement ( nutraceutical) and I would not include that product in what you are describing,
But that's my own opinion having formulated for horse owners, numerous Vet's and hundreds of MD all over the world.
I have been a customer since 2005 and I like that I can target a specific probem without overloading on all other kinds of ingredients that aren't needed. IMO there is a huge difference in a supplement and the THE nutraceuticals.
I won't go without my THE supplement - my horse "sees dead people" if not on it! - seriously, he is a DIFFERENT horse without the special formula I feed that Bob came up with. There was a time when I fed SO many different supplements, I felt like I needed to feed more grain to mix it all in with - and really, all I was doing was wasting money. |
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 Regular
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Location: Canada | "Feed for Need..." If the horse NEEDS it then FEED it  |
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Location: Willows, CA | Griz - 2014-08-12 5:35 AM
Nevertooold - 2014-08-11 6:40 PM Bob - 2014-08-11 5:30 PM
I disagree. But that's my own opinion of having formulated continually for 19 years. When someone has a problem and they send me a CBC and a Chem panel I can see deficiencies and I can formulate a product for that specific animal and human. That's a Dietary supplement ( nutraceutical) and I would not include that product in what you are describing,
But that's my own opinion having formulated for horse owners, numerous Vet's and hundreds of MD all over the world.
I have been a customer since 2005 and I like that I can target a specific probem without overloading on all other kinds of ingredients that aren't needed. IMO there is a huge difference in a supplement and the THE nutraceuticals.
This was my point. I have heard nothing but good things about THE products. The value of individual formulations for specific issues makes perfect sense. One size fixes everything no matter what the underlying cause is does not make sense, and that was my point. A product that works for one horse may not work for another if the underlying cause of the problem is different. My point was simple here. Move toward a more natural functioning diet to begin with, and supplement to the horses requirements from that proper base of nutrition. This makes it much easier to judge if the supplementation you are doing is effective or just a waste of your money. |
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 Warrior Mom
Posts: 4400
| Ive been thinking about this thread all night. Im starting to think im wasting my money and even worse, over-doing it! But Id sure like to simplify my program. |
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| I think another issue frequently overlooked is that too much of a nutrient can show the same problems as a deficiency. My wonderful horse nutrition professor convinced me that horses are pretty good at making do so long as the basic needs were met.
Do I supplement. Some horses, yes. If they have a specific diagnosed issue and it responds to the supplement. Most of ours are on roughage and mineral and they look amazingly fat and shiney. |
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Bye-Bye Jiggle
Posts: 1691
Location: Where ever there's sunshine! | cheryl makofka - 2014-08-11 8:39 PM
BleuIdGrl - 2014-08-11 6:50 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-08-11 12:40 PM
You are forgetting not all horses are created equal, just like people, some medications will work for some, and not for others.
Interesting you say that...."they're all different" is exactly what I got out of the post
Out of the first post, I got, if your horse needs supplements, then your horse is having gut problems, absorption issues, or as I have heard one holistic person call a leaky gut, fix the gut problems then you won't need the supplements.
Agreed! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | Griz - 2014-08-12 3:35 AM Nevertooold - 2014-08-11 6:40 PM Bob - 2014-08-11 5:30 PM
I disagree. But that's my own opinion of having formulated continually for 19 years. When someone has a problem and they send me a CBC and a Chem panel I can see deficiencies and I can formulate a product for that specific animal and human. That's a Dietary supplement ( nutraceutical) and I would not include that product in what you are describing,
But that's my own opinion having formulated for horse owners, numerous Vet's and hundreds of MD all over the world.
I have been a customer since 2005 and I like that I can target a specific probem without overloading on all other kinds of ingredients that aren't needed. IMO there is a huge difference in a supplement and the THE nutraceuticals.
DIDDO!! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 455
| winwillows - 2014-08-11 9:21 PM
Well, I make supplements so I clearly don't think that they are never useful or even at times necessary. The point is that too much suplementation is both unnecessary nor is it beneficial if the horse has a diet that does not disrupt proper efficiency and function. Fix the diet, then provide additional nutrition in the smallest least disruptive way. The result is always a less stressful horse, a better immune system, fewer vet visits, and no colic risk.
It's so simple, that it is complicated. Ha!
I realize that I am bumping up an old post, but I have to say winwillows, I am searching your posts on this board and WOW, thank you for such unbiased, uncomplicated, solid information! |
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Member
Posts: 44
| I have talked to several GREAT vets that are local to me and they say the same thing about supplements. If you are feeding quality hay, salt block, and fresh water, there should be no reason to supplement. She told me this, "You've heard of selenium poisoning right?" Yes. "People mix up all these supplements and don't realize they're doing more harm than good." Hence the Selenium example. Horses get too much of it, coming from all these supplements. And she said, "Have you heard of Selenium deficiency? Nope. "The horses don't much of it in their diet, but the supplements overload it." I will never give more than one supplement at a time. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| rodeocr8zy - 2014-10-18 2:40 PM
I have talked to several GREAT vets that are local to me and they say the same thing about supplements. If you are feeding quality hay, salt block, and fresh water, there should be no reason to supplement. She told me this, "You've heard of selenium poisoning right?" Yes. "People mix up all these supplements and don't realize they're doing more harm than good." Hence the Selenium example. Horses get too much of it, coming from all these supplements. And she said, "Have you heard of Selenium deficiency? Nope. "The horses don't much of it in their diet, but the supplements overload it." I will never give more than one supplement at a time.
Horses were not designed to lick salt from a block, their tongue is not coarse like that of a cow.
Selenium deficiency, actually I hear about it and have seen if first hand, my area we have no selenium in our soil, in our hay, in our grain. I had foals born selenium deficient, and have seen the turn around after giving 3 cc of selenium intramuscular.
The other thing the vet is overlooking, is barrel racing is unnatural, the wear and tear on joints, after each run the horse experiences some inflammation, just like a hockey player, football, baseball, etc. If you were to ask a professional athlete's doctor, their diet is monitored, as well as the supplements.
The problem with horses, is herbs/supplements are not constantly monitored compared to the prescription medication. There is no quality control, and no regulatory body to verify the ingredients in the product match the list.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I feed 1#/day of renew gold and THE Muscle Mass,
Ulcer prevent+ immune boost and GLC 5000.
To get more of an "individualized" THE MM blend made, Bob, to pair with my renew gold, what type of information do you need? Simply
A CBC panel, or more?
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | This was an interesting thread. Thanks for the kind words. My company has an interesting approach to feeding horses based on the fact that every one involved in our company is a competitive horse person, and has been for many (perhaps too many) years. The fact that the major feed companies don't understand how our products work is a constant source of amusement to us since our customers get it. We are not the only answer to feeding horses, and there are some well made supplements available that truely benefit your horses. People who talk to us know this. My only point in the original post was what a few people here have already said. Balance the diet, and supplement as little as necessary to support that balance. |
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The supplement issue