|
|
 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
   
Location: Kansas | Some of you have seen my post on Facebook about Joker and his breathing problems, but I'd be happy to hear more suggestions of something that might help him.
He's 21, and several years ago my vet told me basically has asthma/inflammatory airway disease. I've been giving him a little bit of ventipulmin the day before & day of his runs, but have been able to exercise him at home without it. Last Monday evening, he choked and spent a week completely sidelined but my vet told me Thursday I could go back to working him this week. My goal was to run him about 5 more times this year to try and win the district NBHA 2D saddle then probably retire him completely.
Last night I got home from work in time to do some stuff with him and decided to give him a few cc's of Air Power then wait 15-20 minutes and trot him around. I did that, and even just barely trotting (because I hopped on bareback with a halter in the dark) around his pasture for a couple minutes, he got winded quickly and struggled to catch his breath right away. I could hear him kind of wheezing when I hopped off and stood beside him.
Other than his breathing, he feels great and he LOVES to run. I cut his schedule back several years ago and in 2014, he has made 20 runs. None since Oct. 5th. I realize I'm very very lucky to still have him in my pasture at age 21, still sound and healthy, but I had hoped all year to win a saddle on him in his last year of running.
Joker won't put up with a bunch of invasive treatments - oxygen masks, etc - so if something really involved is all that will help him, we'll call it a career right now. But, if there's another option to help him make a few more runs, I'd love to hear about it. |
|
| |
|
 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | ventipulmin is used to treat RAO in horses.. i think its standard to do 5 cc twice a day in the really struggling ones. but read the bottle and dose by what the bottle says.
You could also ask your vet about getting an oral wash made of dex and something else, or squirting dex in his mouth and tapering that off over the course of a week or two.
I would also find out what is triggering his airway problems- if you need to take hay away or wet his hay down, or keep him out of the barn etc.. sometimes pasture can trigger it so depending on the horse they either need to be kept INSIDE or turned OUT. fun fun fun.. |
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | casualdust07 - 2014-10-29 8:26 AM ventipulmin is used to treat RAO in horses.. i think its standard to do 5 cc twice a day in the really struggling ones. but read the bottle and dose by what the bottle says. You could also ask your vet about getting an oral wash made of dex and something else, or squirting dex in his mouth and tapering that off over the course of a week or two. I would also find out what is triggering his airway problems- if you need to take hay away or wet his hay down, or keep him out of the barn etc.. sometimes pasture can trigger it so depending on the horse they either need to be kept INSIDE or turned OUT. fun fun fun..
We know Joker can't handle being on a round bale or eating dusty hay so I keep him turned out 24/7. He's actually in about a 3 acre pasture with one other horse and they've been there all summer. I would think that if his pasture was the problem, it would have shown up earlier. I've been crossing my fingers that the grass stays green as long as possible so he doesn't have to eat much hay for a while.
When we first diagnosed the airway problems, he was on ventipulmin daily and then I was told to taper it off and only do it leading up to when he runs. His breathing was worse then than it is now. What would dex do for him? I've never used it for anything. |
|
| |
|
 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 429
Location: Oxford, Kansas | Have a 2 yr old that was just diagnosed with Heaves due to horrible horrible allergies to dust/pollen/mold.. I moved him out of the barn and into the round pen, water down his hay and grain, and he's on 30 days of 8 cc's ventipulmin 2x's a day, 45 days of Aleira (respiratory supplement) and Allerplex every day for the rest of his life... I'd talk to your vet about putting him on something to control whatever is triggering the attacks.. |
|
| |
|
You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | dex is a corticosteroid so it will reduce the inflammation he's got going on. But you have to taper that off as well and you can't just give it to him for a week and stop, because when you give cortisol the adrenal gland slows down making its own… so you want to help him out at first and then taper it to allow his adrenal gland to adjust.
Also remember dex will give the same side effects as bute and banamine as far as risk for ulcers. |
|
| |
|
Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Talk to RLB on here... or add her on fb. She has been through the ringer with her horse. She at one time was steaming his hay with a homemade steamer, and now I believe she feeds just hay cubes. She has tried a number of things as hers has severe allergies/heaves.
Another friend of mine had good luck giving a cough-syrup type product before working him that was all natural, but I can't for the life of me remember the name of it. It smelled like Vicks Vaporub.
Best of luck with the issue! :) |
|
| |
|
 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | i think dex would help as well...you could try sodium cromolyn injections(best to ask your vet about that and how to give it..its a tricky shot)
maybe up the venti dosage
air power from finish line is very good (i actually like it better than venti)
and we feed cubes and pour water on them to stop any fines or dust
is he a bleeder?
m
Edited by mruggles 2014-10-29 10:13 AM
|
|
| |
|
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1162
Location: White Mountains of AZ | I guess the suggestion of hitting up some racehorse owners/farms for some Clenbuterol are out of the question eh?.... JK!!!! Other than my smarta**y remark...I have nothing. But good luck I know these knowledgeable people will give you advice better than mine!!! |
|
| |
|
  Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | I have had good luck with Lung Aid for my horses with allergies. |
|
| |
|
 Saint Stacey
| QH<3er - 2014-10-29 8:52 AM
I guess the suggestion of hitting up some racehorse owners/farms for some Clenbuterol are out of the question eh?.... JK!!!! Other than my smarta**y remark...I have nothing. But good luck I know these knowledgeable people will give you advice better than mine!!!
While I get that this was meant to be a smart ass remark, ventipulmin is clenbuterol. Ventipulmin is the horse form of clenbuterol. Zilpaterol is the cattle form of clenbuterol and the cheapest which is why people are using it instead of Ventipulmin. |
|
| |
|
You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | SKM - 2014-10-29 10:30 AM
QH<3er - 2014-10-29 8:52 AM
I guess the suggestion of hitting up some racehorse owners/farms for some Clenbuterol are out of the question eh?.... JK!!!! Other than my smarta**y remark...I have nothing. But good luck I know these knowledgeable people will give you advice better than mine!!!
While I get that this was meant to be a smart ass remark, ventipulmin is clenbuterol. Ventipulmin is the horse form of clenbuterol. Zilpaterol is the cattle form of clenbuterol and the cheapest which is why people are using it instead of Ventipulmin.
beat me to it. the OP would be using clenbuterol for its intended purpose. Clenbuterol isn't a bad drug. its bad when people use it as a performance enhancer. |
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | casualdust07 - 2014-10-29 10:37 AM SKM - 2014-10-29 10:30 AM QH<3er - 2014-10-29 8:52 AM I guess the suggestion of hitting up some racehorse owners/farms for some Clenbuterol are out of the question eh?.... JK!!!! Other than my smarta**y remark...I have nothing. But good luck I know these knowledgeable people will give you advice better than mine!!! While I get that this was meant to be a smart ass remark, ventipulmin is clenbuterol. Ventipulmin is the horse form of clenbuterol. Zilpaterol is the cattle form of clenbuterol and the cheapest which is why people are using it instead of Ventipulmin. beat me to it. the OP would be using clenbuterol for its intended purpose. Clenbuterol isn't a bad drug. its bad when people use it as a performance enhancer.
I have no issue giving him Ventipulmin, but I don't want to give it every single day. A few times a week is enough. He's comfortable and happy in his pasture without it, but to exercise and run barrels, he needs some help. Ventipulmin does help, but it becomes cost-prohibitive pretty quickly if I have to give 5cc every day......that's about $5 (maybe more now, I bought a big bottle last spring and still have some left) extra per day on top of $70 per month in supplements that he gets and a $10.50 Flair strip for every run. I love Joker but he doesn't enjoy a bunch of extra treatments so I may just have to be happy taking him for trail rides or tying goats off him a few times a year instead. |
|
| |
|
 Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | Maybe allergy test him and see what he is actually allergic to and treat accordingly. |
|
| |
|
 Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| You might try a playing with the amount of ventipulmin to see if you can give a lower dose. My mare has respiratory issues and is coming back from having pneumonia this summer. When I started legging her back up I could tell she was having trouble breathing so I started her on ventipulmin. She is a large mare so I started out with the recommended dosage per weight. Then I started decreasing the amount by half a cc until I found the point where it's no longer helping. She feels great on 2.5-3cc, but when I dropped it down to 2cc I could tell it was not enough. I only dose her on days that I ride, but if all I plan to do is walk down the road she is fine without it. I give it to her 2-3 hours before I ride as that seems to be the most effective for her. I also give her Super Wind, which I think is similar to Air Power, about 30 minutes prior to riding. I hope to eventually wean her off of the ventipulmin. My vet also prescribed Dex on the days that I run. He initially started me out on a higher dose, and I've been backing off gradually to see what is the lowest amount that helps. I also hope to eventually wean her off of this after all of the after effects of the pneumonia are gone.
|
|
| |
|
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| How did the vet clear the horse to go back to work?
Did he scope the lungs? Listen to them?
Since the horse is a choke I question aspiration pneumonia, if he was mine I would be getting a bronchoscopy performed to rule this out, plus a CBC to ensure wcb is normal, if all this checked out my vet generally recommends a 14 day tx program of ventipulmin and banamine (the anti inflammatory as he is opposed to dex) |
|
| |
|
 Go Your Own Way
Posts: 4947
Location: SE KS | Mel - I hope you figure this out. Kinda been dealing with this and Dinero.
|
|
| |
|
Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| cheryl makofka - 2014-10-29 11:27 AM
How did the vet clear the horse to go back to work?
Did he scope the lungs? Listen to them?
Since the horse is a choke I question aspiration pneumonia, if he was mine I would be getting a bronchoscopy performed to rule this out, plus a CBC to ensure wcb is normal, if all this checked out my vet generally recommends a 14 day tx program of ventipulmin and banamine (the anti inflammatory as he is opposed to dex)
I agree with this. When my mare got sick they did a tracheal wash and found 4 bacteria, so they were concerned about choke. Before she was cleared to do anything but stand around and get better we made sure her blood work was all back to normal.
Cheryl - Do you get the same results from banamine as you would from dex? I don't necessarily like giving dex, but it's working and I'm afraid to change. But if I could get the same results from banamine would I be better to switch? |
|
| |
|
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Jenbabe - 2014-10-29 11:38 AM
cheryl makofka - 2014-10-29 11:27 AM
How did the vet clear the horse to go back to work?
Did he scope the lungs? Listen to them?
Since the horse is a choke I question aspiration pneumonia, if he was mine I would be getting a bronchoscopy performed to rule this out, plus a CBC to ensure wcb is normal, if all this checked out my vet generally recommends a 14 day tx program of ventipulmin and banamine (the anti inflammatory as he is opposed to dex)
I agree with this. When my mare got sick they did a tracheal wash and found 4 bacteria, so they were concerned about choke. Before she was cleared to do anything but stand around and get better we made sure her blood work was all back to normal.
Cheryl - Do you get the same results from banamine as you would from dex? I don't necessarily like giving dex, but it's working and I'm afraid to change. But if I could get the same results from banamine would I be better to switch?
I can't tell you as my vet has never allowed me to administer dex for anything.
He says dex affects internal organs too much and can take 10 yrs off a horses life.
For horses with a low grade fever banamine will drop it to normal
Banamine is also a smooth muscle relaxant do it will allow the blood vessels dilate in the lungs to optimize lung function, if I notice my horses using accessory muscles to breathe and flairing of nostrils the combo makes them breathe regularly.
For a horse who had a nasty lung infection after he could return to work he was on the Flovent inhailer for the winter and has had no problems since.
Banamine also has antihistamine properties but not to the extent of Benadryl
I cannot answer if it would work for you as I don't know your horses history, it would be a conversation I encourage you to have with your vet
Edited by cheryl makofka 2014-10-29 12:49 PM
|
|
| |
|
Go Your Own Way
Posts: 4947
Location: SE KS | cheryl makofka - 2014-10-29 12:47 PM Jenbabe - 2014-10-29 11:38 AM cheryl makofka - 2014-10-29 11:27 AM How did the vet clear the horse to go back to work? Did he scope the lungs? Listen to them? Since the horse is a choke I question aspiration pneumonia, if he was mine I would be getting a bronchoscopy performed to rule this out, plus a CBC to ensure wcb is normal, if all this checked out my vet generally recommends a 14 day tx program of ventipulmin and banamine (the anti inflammatory as he is opposed to dex) I agree with this. When my mare got sick they did a tracheal wash and found 4 bacteria, so they were concerned about choke. Before she was cleared to do anything but stand around and get better we made sure her blood work was all back to normal. Cheryl - Do you get the same results from banamine as you would from dex? I don't necessarily like giving dex, but it's working and I'm afraid to change. But if I could get the same results from banamine would I be better to switch? I can't tell you as my vet has never allowed me to administer dex for anything. He says dex affects internal organs too much and can take 10 yrs off a horses life. For horses with a low grade fever banamine will drop it to normal Banamine is also a smooth muscle relaxant do it will allow the blood vessels dilate in the lungs to optimize lung function, if I notice my horses using accessory muscles to breathe and flairing of nostrils the combo makes them breathe regularly. For a horse who had a nasty lung infection after he could return to work he was on the Flovent inhailer for the winter and has had no problems since. Banamine also has antihistamine properties but not to the extent of Benadryl I cannot answer if it would work for you as I don't know your horses history, it would be a conversation I encourage you to have with your vet
This is interesting - |
|
| |
|
Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| cheryl makofka - 2014-10-29 12:47 PM
Jenbabe - 2014-10-29 11:38 AM
cheryl makofka - 2014-10-29 11:27 AM
How did the vet clear the horse to go back to work?
Did he scope the lungs? Listen to them?
Since the horse is a choke I question aspiration pneumonia, if he was mine I would be getting a bronchoscopy performed to rule this out, plus a CBC to ensure wcb is normal, if all this checked out my vet generally recommends a 14 day tx program of ventipulmin and banamine (the anti inflammatory as he is opposed to dex)
I agree with this. When my mare got sick they did a tracheal wash and found 4 bacteria, so they were concerned about choke. Before she was cleared to do anything but stand around and get better we made sure her blood work was all back to normal.
Cheryl - Do you get the same results from banamine as you would from dex? I don't necessarily like giving dex, but it's working and I'm afraid to change. But if I could get the same results from banamine would I be better to switch?
I can't tell you as my vet has never allowed me to administer dex for anything.
He says dex affects internal organs too much and can take 10 yrs off a horses life.
For horses with a low grade fever banamine will drop it to normal
Banamine is also a smooth muscle relaxant do it will allow the blood vessels dilate in the lungs to optimize lung function, if I notice my horses using accessory muscles to breathe and flairing of nostrils the combo makes them breathe regularly.
For a horse who had a nasty lung infection after he could return to work he was on the Flovent inhailer for the winter and has had no problems since.
Banamine also has antihistamine properties but not to the extent of Benadryl
I cannot answer if it would work for you as I don't know your horses history, it would be a conversation I encourage you to have with your vet
Thank you! I'll definitely discuss it with my vet. |
|
| |
|
You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I have never heard of banamine having antihistamine properties. I just checked my veterinary pharmacology book because I'm in pharmacology right now, and it says nothing about that.
OP- best bet would be to ask your vet. |
|
| |
|
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| casualdust07 - 2014-10-29 1:08 PM
I have never heard of banamine having antihistamine properties. I just checked my veterinary pharmacology book because I'm in pharmacology right now, and it says nothing about that.
OP- best bet would be to ask your vet.
It has to do with the cell mediated immune response, I don't have time to look it up but it is how banamine interferes with the inflammatory process some of the same pathways are blocked in the antihistamine pathway. |
|
| |
|
 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | DMG is a good option for allergy related heaves. |
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | He hasn't been back to the vet since he choked. I literally had him in their office within an hour & a half of when he choked. It was the second time he's choked and the first time he definitely wound up with aspiration pneumonia but there was a lot more time between the choke & when we got it resolved. This time, I knew what was happening and could act quicker. She really didn't think he had aspirated much if at all, and had me give him antibiotics for the rest of the week. I think he got Uniprim Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and then I ran out so I gave him a shot of Excede Thursday since I still had it on hand and the vet clinic is 35 miles away. Vet and I talked on the phone Thursday before I did that and she said after that shot I could call it good on antibiotics and return him to work the following week.
I haven't been too aggressive with working him this week because of my work schedule but last night was disappointing. I'll give the vets a call after work today and see if they've got any suggestions for him. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 477
Location: Lost in the swamps | Going thru this exact same thing with my gelding diagnosed with IAD.
Kicking myself for not doing a bal wash and venipulmin to begin with :( first started as slight cough,
yellow discharge,called vet told me to put him on dex and tucoprim. After a week it didn't quite clear up so
went to vet again to scope and do blood work showed
Infection, and scope showed mucus in the trac,he never developed fever,resp rate was elevated to upper 30's and had a yellow discharge,
More dex, and gentafuse ,he is much better now And would only let out one single cough during a work out after treatment and told sto start working him. I have kept his grass down and as weed free as possible, no stalling, no hay, the dust hasn't been to my advantage.:/ and He has continued to have minor episodes, went to local vet pulled more blood it was perfect!!! Still has pale discharge but not every day, never from both nostrils at one time,just one or the other. no fever, rep rate 15-20.but no coughing!! going back to vet and bite the billet do the bal wash to know for sure if it's allergen,bacterial or viral:( and get some vinipulmin to help him out will I get a better handle on his enviorment.
|
|
| |
|
 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | cheryl makofka - 2014-10-29 12:27 PM How did the vet clear the horse to go back to work? Did he scope the lungs? Listen to them? Since the horse is a choke I question aspiration pneumonia, if he was mine I would be getting a bronchoscopy performed to rule this out, plus a CBC to ensure wcb is normal, if all this checked out my vet generally recommends a 14 day tx program of ventipulmin and banamine (the anti inflammatory as he is opposed to dex)
AGREE!
once choke happened id be very concerned if he is having breathing issues exercising.. and wheezy.. and his age. bibs had choke.. was aspirated to lungs and did same thing in the beginning.. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 477
Location: Lost in the swamps | I would bring him back to the vet and possible get a scope and a bal wash. make sure he doesn't have a bacterial infection
Due to possible asperation when he choked, and also to be sure he doesn't have a structure
From the food ball being lodged and causing damage to the espohpgus. Monitor temp and resp rate. |
|
| |
|
 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 317
Location: MS | Air power by Finish Line works great for allergies.
I have one that bleeds due to allergies. I'm thinking about renting a Transpirator by Centurion (centurionsystems.com)
It's supposed to break up any mucus in their lungs and kill bacteria.
Has anyone used one of these?
|
|
| |
|
 Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | I would talk to your vet about Dex. It is cheap and it works. My now retired mare has been on it for heaves flair ups for 10 years now. Just in the last year have I had to up her to 5cc every other day. she is now in her 20's while it is not necessarily good for them since he is already 21 and you are just looking to get him better for a few more runs it would be something I would talk to my vet about for sure. prior to this last year my mare would go through a 100cc bottle ($20) about every 8-10 months.
|
|
| |
|
 Go For It!
Location: Texas | ACEINTHEHOLE - 2014-10-29 11:13 AM
Maybe allergy test him and see what he is actually allergic to and treat accordingly.
I would definitely get him allergy tested and started on allergy shots. It isn't that expensive and it has made a HUGE difference in my horse. Talk to your vet about it. I use BioLabs.
|
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | I'm waiting on a call from my vet to figure out what we're going to do. In the meantime, I'm just letting him hang out in the pasture.
Update: My regular/original/older vet called this evening to talk about Joker. He said we could scope & do other tests to see exactly what's going on, but odds are I'll have to give ventipulmin every day so Joker can breathe well enough to exercise at home. At the price of it plus his daily supplements, Flair strips, and yearly hock injections, I just don't think I can justify that additional expense when I've got three others to run. If I end up going to the vet in the next few weeks, I may take him too just to see what we can find in case there is some "miracle cure." Doc acted like it was unrealistic to expect him to make Joker 10 years younger, able to breathe better and a half second faster. LOL.
Edited by rodeowithjoker 2014-10-30 7:27 PM
|
|
| |
|
I'm a Cry Baby
Posts: 3781
Location: n.c. | And it may just be time to retire him. With allergies/heaves it will just get worse as they get older. Good luck with whatever you decide, but retirement would be first in my mind. |
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | runningk - 2014-10-30 8:17 PM And it may just be time to retire him. With allergies/heaves it will just get worse as they get older. Good luck with whatever you decide, but retirement would be first in my mind.
That's what I keep coming back to. I hate it because running barrels is what Joker loves to do but he doesn't deserve to be asked to run when he can't breathe. Hopefully he'll decide he can behave for kids to ride him because I'm giving riding lessons once a week and could use another beginner horse. If not, I'll just check cows on him and go trail riding more often so I can enjoy him while he's still around. |
|
| |
|
 Expert
Posts: 2013
Location: Piedmont, OK | I use Animal Element Detox and Immune for allergy issues. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | I prefer the use of repiratory drugs via the respiratory tract. I've just begun using essential oils this way and thus far I'm impressed.
I rented the Transpirator about 10 years ago. I currently use the BIGDWEB.com system. I have a friend that has the flexineb and although Iv'e only used it once I was impressed. So, now I'm hoping to get one.
Use the Equisilver to treat your lung issues and I use the Neb30 to mix any meds with.
Unfortunatly, we use the nebulizer a lot due to our nasty dusty conditions, aka drought. |
|
| |
Respiratory issues - what would help a horse with asthma-like symptoms?