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 Go For It!
   
Location: Texas | Okay everyone, go like our new facebook page… A New Standard in Barrel Racing… https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-New-Standard-in-Barrel-Racing/54087...
Let's keep this ball rolling!
Several of us in the barrel racing community would like to extend a proposition to you regarding the implementation of a new "standard" in barrel racing patterns. After much discussion, we have concluded that it would be really beneficial to many barrel racers if we could implement more than one "standard" pattern size.
Here is the thought… Leave the WPRA standard pattern alone and call it "Pattern A", from there choose 3 or 4 additional pattern sizes to be used, dependent on the size of the venue where the barrel race will be held. We could call the NFR sized pattern "Pattern C" then come up with a pattern for "B" and "D". Perhaps the Ardmore or Oklahoma City arenas could be used to compute those particular pattern sizes. Then a list of the dimensions for each pattern would be on your website and producers could choose what pattern would fit their venue.
The producer would then stake the pattern according to what "standard" they choose.
The benefits of this type of standard will be felt across the barrel racing industry from Hawaii to Brazil. People all over the globe could use these standards to compare their runs with runs all over the country. It would be beneficial in closing the gap between horses who run in the Northern states vs the South. It would help, immensely, those who are purchasing horses out of state and help those that are marketing their horses as well. The really neat thing about this is that producers, all over the country, all over the world, will have a shot at seeing standard pattern records being set and broken. I'm sure that if we put our heads together on this deal, it could be something that would set the barrel racing world on fire. We could get a group together that would come up with a set of standards, work out any kinks that may arise, and it's clear sailing from there.
I truly hope that you will consider this proposition and please feel free to contact me for further assistance.
Thanks so much,
Joy Cameron
rebarranch@hotmail.com
Edited by grinandbareit 2014-11-07 1:36 AM
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Miracle in the Making
Posts: 4013
| yur kidding right ?
lol we have some pens here 11.2 wins |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | I would think you'd need a big organization (like BBR) to make it mandatory at their races in order to be sanctioned... then just pray that other people take it into effect. It would be a wonderful tool when trying to market horses!! I would be awesome to see how horses vary on their times when it's a smaller pattern vs. more opened up! |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | vjls - 2014-11-05 3:20 PM
yur kidding right ?
lol we have some pens here 11.2 wins
No, I'm not kidding, lol. It may not fit EVERY pen, but it will fit most. And it will give people around the country a good idea of what they need to be to be able to compete at each level. I think it would be cool. And it wouldn't be more work either. Just look at what size arena you have and stake the pattern according to the standard that fits it.
It could work! Then, when people are selling and buying they would be able to look at the results and know what the horse is capable of. It would close up that North/South gap.
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | And it would be super beneficial to the D-system we have now. Lots of ads say 1d horse and people ask, where? New York or TX? Then it won't matter. You can just check times and what pattern they were using. The results could say at the top of the page what standard they were running on… A, B, etc…
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 Veteran
Posts: 209
| It is an intriguing idea, especially for those buying or selling horses as for a comparison of times. However I think it would difficult to come up with those different standards and they hard to implement and keep track of what pattern was set up. |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Every rodeo you go to has to have the pattern posted. There are standards set in distance on the track and it is super beneficial to the racehorse industry, why not in the barrel pen. Like mentioned above, get the big producers and the wpra to get on board and it just becomes the norm when you sanction. I think people would love it. Unless it works against them when selling a horse.
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 Texas Tenderheart
Posts: 6715
Location: Red Raiderland | I like the idea.  |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | Sounds like a really neat idea! I definitely see the benefit in saying "oh, he runs a ______ on a B pattern". Right now, all I reference is a standard - which I MIGHT run on twice a year. Most pens in the northwest are 14 seconds or less. And my horse hates a standard. It would be nice to reference a pattern size rather than list his fastest time for each individual arena.
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Exactly sv! I think it warrants a letter to some of the bigger producers and the WPRA. I think we could actually get something rolling on this.
Look how good the D system has been for barrel racing. That was way harder to implement than this would be.
Edited by grinandbareit 2014-11-05 5:02 PM
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  The Original Cyber Bartender
Location: Washington | I think your going to want to leave out most of rodeo.
I think it could work for certain associations. BUT, (you knew I would have one) when you start saying the words World record your opening up a can a worms. When it comes to the record on the standard pattern it was run out here and there was a stink about it being different ground, different score....etc. Most indoor arena's have their dirt hauled in, if it's not the same dirt, times will show it. SO if a producer was going to do this I would think it would work if they held their shows at the same arena and could set a pattern and publish it.....also have a non participate measure and set the course.
For the record when I suggested this I was being a smart a ss, but if you want to try and get producers on board good luck. I think having the fast time of a rodeo and or show is the record for that day and that year and most feel that's good enough.
IMHO Not sure there is enough incentive to want to do it. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1118
Location: The South | That is a really cool idea! |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | The only organization I know of that has standard small patterns is the northwest gaming association. There may be others like that elsewhere. They run on the same size pattern no matter the size of the arena. If the arena is too small, they don't have shows there. The reason for this is they have standards based on the times run on the pattern so it needs to be the same all the time or the standards don't work.
They don't need to change the standard pattern. There are already allowances made for different size arena's. One of the greatest things about rodeo is the ability to change with the circumstances.  |
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 Balance Beam and more...
Posts: 11511
Location: 31 lengths farms | I'd have to retire my gelding...he hates small pens and because of that so do I. He is a 1D-2D horse on a standard, put him on a pattern smaller and he won't run hard enough to scatter his own poop. |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| Too many varibales like ground, how mqny in a drag, inside arena, outside arens, air temp and dampness of ground vs wetness. Deepness of ground. I could go one. Ifmthey put new ground in a arena. |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| daisycake123 - 2014-11-05 5:55 PM
Too many varibales like ground, how mqny in a drag, inside arena, outside arens, air temp and dampness of ground vs wetness. Deepness of ground. I could go one. Ifmthey put new ground in a arena.
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Come on guys… Let's look at the positives…
You're in the market for a nice 1d horse and so you start looking online… You find several ads that look like they are what you may need. You check results, you don't know who the competition is that they are running against, you don't know what size the pen is, etc…
Here is an example… Say someone says that they ran 1/10 faster than Hotshot at the jackpot - but they neglect to tell you that Hotshot fell turning the 2nd. Then they tell you that they consistently run in the 1d against people like so and so, but they don't tell you that so and so is on their new 3 yr old.
What this system does is give you a medium to go by. It doesn't matter who is there or how tough or easy the competition is… This helps to keep people honest. You can always look up the results, see what pattern they ran on and how close their time was. Even the standard pattern isn't that accurate if you want to get nit-picky. And as far as the rodeos go, leave them out. It's already hard enough to get those suckers to do anything for the barrel racers anyway. The big barrel races and the smaller producers could get this done. It would be easy if everyone could see the benefit of it.
There are plenty of people who would be against it too. Especially those that I mentioned above, because it would close some doors for them to be a little deceitful in their advertising. BUT, the fact is, more people look at 1d horses in the south than up North. You can get more money for a good 1d horse here than up there because down here they are known for running against lots of super tough horses. Just look at the last American… How great would it be to close that gap for those nice horses up North. Owners could sell them on their own without having to find someone to haul them down South, it would even the $ gap too… And believe me, that stuff happens quite often.
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 Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | daisycake123 - 2014-11-05 5:55 PM Too many varibales like ground, how mqny in a drag, inside arena, outside arens, air temp and dampness of ground vs wetness. Deepness of ground. I could go one. Ifmthey put new ground in a arena.
It would be no different than saying YOUR horse is a 4D, 3D, 2D, 1D etc ........at least it would be a "tad bit" more information for a comparison........ |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| jbhoot - 2014-11-05 6:32 PM
daisycake123 - 2014-11-05 5:55 PM
Too many varibales like ground, how mqny in a drag, inside arena, outside arens, air temp and dampness of ground vs wetness. Deepness of ground. I could go one. Ifmthey put new ground in a arena.
Exactly!
Now we could actually see how these things affect different horses and arenas if they affect them at all. And you should realize in life most things arent 100% accurate and written in stone.
This would be a HUGE plus in the barrel racing world. |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I think most of the big producers in Texas basically go off the same pattern for their shows so I think it would be easy to get some of them on board.
You would leave the standard pattern as is and would be pattern #1 or A. You then downsize from there. I can't see as this being to hard to implement as all producers mark their arenas and write down the dimensions.
I was told that NBHA pretty much uses the same size pattern for their Super Shows no matter what the size of the arena. I was told they do it so they can get x amount of horses through in x amount of time.
We have some big producers on this site so why don't we ask them their opinions and if they would go for it?
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Nevertooold - 2014-11-05 6:58 PM
I think most of the big producers in Texas basically go off the same pattern for their shows so I think it would be easy to get some of them on board.
You would leave the standard pattern as is and would be pattern #1 or A. You then downsize from there. I can't see as this being to hard to implement as all producers mark their arenas and write down the dimensions.
I was told that NBHA pretty much uses the same size pattern for their Super Shows no matter what the size of the arena. I was told they do it so they can get x amount of horses through in x amount of time.
We have some big producers on this site so why don't we ask them their opinions and if they would go for it?
I wish we could tag them, lol.
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | fatchance - 2014-11-05 5:09 PM I think your going to want to leave out most of rodeo.
I think it could work for certain associations. BUT, (you knew I would have one) when you start saying the words World record your opening up a can a worms. When it comes to the record on the standard pattern it was run out here and there was a stink about it being different ground, different score....etc. Most indoor arena's have their dirt hauled in, if it's not the same dirt, times will show it. SO if a producer was going to do this I would think it would work if they held their shows at the same arena and could set a pattern and publish it.....also have a non participate measure and set the course.
For the record when I suggested this I was being a smart a ss, but if you want to try and get producers on board good luck. I think having the fast time of a rodeo and or show is the record for that day and that year and most feel that's good enough.
IMHO Not sure there is enough incentive to want to do it.
The Northwest runs mostly standard patterns and it is a great selling point. The days of buying a horse in your backyard is long gone. When I first was looking for a horse for our daughter that moved to AZ, in AZ was the first time I had someone tell me the horse usually runs between a 17.00 to 17.50 on a standard course or they would say they were a 2-D horse on a standard pattern. This was totally new to me since I was use to running on a small pattern.
I think this would be a great selling tool. I had a horse that ran 1-D on a standard pattern but ran in the 3-D on the smaller indoor Texas patterns. It would give a person a great idea of what a horse would do in their area if they knew what pattern size the horse was running on. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | grinandbareit - 2014-11-05 7:02 PM Nevertooold - 2014-11-05 6:58 PM I think most of the big producers in Texas basically go off the same pattern for their shows so I think it would be easy to get some of them on board.
You would leave the standard pattern as is and would be pattern #1 or A. You then downsize from there. I can't see as this being to hard to implement as all producers mark their arenas and write down the dimensions.
I was told that NBHA pretty much uses the same size pattern for their Super Shows no matter what the size of the arena. I was told they do it so they can get x amount of horses through in x amount of time.
We have some big producers on this site so why don't we ask them their opinions and if they would go for it?
I wish we could tag them, lol.
We can pm them or go to FB and ask them to come over here.
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Nevertooold - 2014-11-05 7:12 PM
grinandbareit - 2014-11-05 7:02 PM Nevertooold - 2014-11-05 6:58 PM I think most of the big producers in Texas basically go off the same pattern for their shows so I think it would be easy to get some of them on board.
You would leave the standard pattern as is and would be pattern #1 or A. You then downsize from there. I can't see as this being to hard to implement as all producers mark their arenas and write down the dimensions.
I was told that NBHA pretty much uses the same size pattern for their Super Shows no matter what the size of the arena. I was told they do it so they can get x amount of horses through in x amount of time.
We have some big producers on this site so why don't we ask them their opinions and if they would go for it?
I wish we could tag them, lol.
Great idea!!! You want to do it? :)
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 No Tune in a Bucket
Posts: 2935
Location: Texas | Why would the producers or associations care if they help people market their horses? |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | RocketPilot - 2014-11-05 7:40 PM Why would the producers or associations care if they help people market their horses?
Because a lot of them are barrel racers themselves. |
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The Original Cyber Bartender
Location: Washington | Nevertooold - 2014-11-05 5:11 PM fatchance - 2014-11-05 5:09 PM I think your going to want to leave out most of rodeo.
I think it could work for certain associations. BUT, (you knew I would have one) when you start saying the words World record your opening up a can a worms. When it comes to the record on the standard pattern it was run out here and there was a stink about it being different ground, different score....etc. Most indoor arena's have their dirt hauled in, if it's not the same dirt, times will show it. SO if a producer was going to do this I would think it would work if they held their shows at the same arena and could set a pattern and publish it.....also have a non participate measure and set the course.
For the record when I suggested this I was being a smart a ss, but if you want to try and get producers on board good luck. I think having the fast time of a rodeo and or show is the record for that day and that year and most feel that's good enough.
IMHO Not sure there is enough incentive to want to do it. The Northwest runs mostly standard patterns and it is a great selling point. The days of buying a horse in your backyard is long gone. When I first was looking for a horse for our daughter that moved to AZ, in AZ was the first time I had someone tell me the horse usually runs between a 17.00 to 17.50 on a standard course or they would say they were a 2-D horse on a standard pattern. This was totally new to me since I was use to running on a small pattern.
I think this would be a great selling tool. I had a horse that ran 1-D on a standard pattern but ran in the 3-D on the smaller indoor Texas patterns. It would give a person a great idea of what a horse would do in their area if they knew what pattern size the horse was running on.
I understand the move ( we moved a lot) because I researched it and started understanding the "science" of entering but lacking the understanding of the "holy grail". Seriously I know Texas tough and I know Washington tough. Leave it up to the producers, not the riders who "think" they can and or know. If you know, you know where to enter! |
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 Expert
Posts: 1273
Location: South Dakota | I like the fact there are lots of different size patterns and different scores. I think it mixes it up. |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | I just can't think of anything negative about this. And for those who say don't do it... Why would it matter to you one way or another? If you don't want to use it as a tool, then fine, but why not be supportive of those who would really like it? It's just a barrel pattern. We aren't trying to change anything other than setting it a standard size according to the venue. All pluses.
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 Chicken Chick
Posts: 3562
Location: Texas | I don't see anything wrong with it and I think it is a great idea.
You will still have different size patterns small to large. It is just a classification that lets you know at a glance how big the pattern was. I don't even own a horse at the moment, but it would sure be fun to compare times from this place to that place.
Granted there are variables, but those are the same variables with a standard pattern. People rarely mention that when they talk about what their horse runs on a standard. I don't think I have ever heard someone say "Gunner ran a 19 on a standard pattern, with new dirt, that was moist, humid day, about 90 degrees, facing the sun going to the 3rd barrel..." You get my point. People just say a 19 on a standard. People understand there are variables, but that is as close as you are going to get to a true estimate of what the horse will do.
If you don't care what "class" the pattern is... don't look and it won't matter. I think there are people that would use pattern classes that don't think they will.
You don't have to be selling or buying a horse. Say your horse only likes small pens, well that will narrow your search down when looking for a place to barrel race. "Oh don't want to go there that is an A class.... Rocket likes a D pattern. Here is one!" Then you can go on your merry way asking about ground etc. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 371
Location: California | grinandbareit - 2014-11-05 6:44 PM Come on guys… Let's look at the positives… You're in the market for a nice 1d horse and so you start looking online… You find several ads that look like they are what you may need. You check results, you don't know who the competition is that they are running against, you don't know what size the pen is, etc… Here is an example… Say someone says that they ran 1/10 faster than Hotshot at the jackpot - but they neglect to tell you that Hotshot fell turning the 2nd. Then they tell you that they consistently run in the 1d against people like so and so, but they don't tell you that so and so is on their new 3 yr old. What this system does is give you a medium to go by. It doesn't matter who is there or how tough or easy the competition is… This helps to keep people honest. You can always look up the results, see what pattern they ran on and how close their time was. Even the standard pattern isn't that accurate if you want to get nit-picky. And as far as the rodeos go, leave them out. It's already hard enough to get those suckers to do anything for the barrel racers anyway. The big barrel races and the smaller producers could get this done. It would be easy if everyone could see the benefit of it. There are plenty of people who would be against it too. Especially those that I mentioned above, because it would close some doors for them to be a little deceitful in their advertising. BUT, the fact is, more people look at 1d horses in the south than up North. You can get more money for a good 1d horse here than up there because down here they are known for running against lots of super tough horses. Just look at the last American… How great would it be to close that gap for those nice horses up North. Owners could sell them on their own without having to find someone to haul them down South, it would even the $ gap too… And believe me, that stuff happens quite often.
Love this idea!! Horse shopping is SO frustrating and this would really really help! |
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| Apparently no one ever reads the AQHA RULE BOOK .. they have patterns defined for small or large arenas by cutting the distance primarily from 1 & 2 barrels ... and even adjusting the 2 & 3 distance or the run back to timer line ... and can be called standard patterns if producer follows the guidelines ..
Your northern snow states have the smallest arena's due to the bad weather.
Southern states have more of the bigger outdoor and larger indoor arenas also due to good weather and indoors are used for other events that require more room ...
Just look at the part of the country horse has been running in and his times ... anyone looking for an expensive horse should know the arena size automatically from experience ... God help anyone that pretends to not know that 12-14 seconds is a modified workout barn or just a covered cowpen has to be joking ....
Sherry Cervi is a master at finding the small pens for her horses and makes the NFR with her specialized and knowledgeable decisions on where to run .... knowing she will end up running on a basketball court at the NFR ... LOL |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | We have a barrel race coming up in a couple of weeks that I think is going to be so much fun… They are setting up the NFR pattern in a small pen and advertising it as such. It's 2 goes, 4d format and short go, with a calcutta for each D. I entered just because I would love to see what my horses will clock compared to the NFR runs. I know that it's not 100% but it is still fun to see where you're at.
This system is basically the same thing… And talk about a great futurity tool. You can just look online and see where your horse is running compared to horses all over the country… Heck, all over the globe really. If they use the system in Brazil then it just opens up the market for all those horses too. And I'm betting that Brazil would be on board with it!
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 Hot Dispatcher
Posts: 10185
Location: Utah | Here in our area ( I am in Utah) the majority of our outdoor arenas are big enough for a standard pattern some of the indoor are big enough for a standard set. My soution is for all of you in the south to build bigger arenas  |
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 Veteran
Posts: 226
Location: Middle Tennessee | I think this is an awesome idea. Everyone that is bringing up the variables that wouldn't make this system reliable are forgetting that we have those variables now in our D formats. Everyone knows ground, arena conditions, etc. vary. This would be able to give people a rough idea of their horse's caliber and give buyers and idea of what they're really getting. Living in the south and constantly running on small pens makes me love this idea because I can't ever reference a standard because we just don't have them around here. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1162
Location: White Mountains of AZ | We usually have the standard pattern out here in the White Mountain of AZ area. Occasionally they will make it a bit smaller, and sometimes they will make it NFR pattern. I'm not fond of switching it up so much. NBHA will have a double header and run the standard in the am, but at pm, they will set up a Vegas size pattern. It gets horses confused a lot of the times. But I like the A, B, C, D...pattern sizing. |
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
Location: Online | I like the idea. The hard part will be getting producers on board consistently.
On the issue of 1D horses on standard patterns. There are too many variables of what is a good time on a standard, ground conditions, alleyway or not, room to run home, etc. A horse may run a 17.0 at Pasco, but can barely break into the 17s at other arenas with the same pattern dimensions. All you can do when shopping for a 1D horse is try the horse, if you get along and it clocks 1D consistently in different arenas against tough competition, not necessarily numbers, but quality, then you are probably getting a true 1D horse. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| The short of this topic, people want more rules in barrel racing. More work for the host, as now they will have to measure prior to advertising the event this can even be a year in advance, so people can know what category the pattern will be.
What happens if the event advertises one pattern, but the arena changed the dimensions so the pattern will not be as advertised. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 972
Location: Texas! | Anyone else noticed that now when producers are using laser stakes instead of ground stakes the barrel is set in the middle of the stake instead of at the lip of the barrel? So when I was at a barrel race a couple months ago and they say its set to a standard I don't see how it truly was a standard since the barrel was set on the stake differently. Makes a difference in my mind. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 11:10 AM The short of this topic, people want more rules in barrel racing. More work for the host, as now they will have to measure prior to advertising the event this can even be a year in advance, so people can know what category the pattern will be. What happens if the event advertises one pattern, but the arena changed the dimensions so the pattern will not be as advertised.
You're the one that is making it difficult.
A producer would have the dimensions of the different patterns and the day of the race would put one of them in place and when posting results would post what pattern it was run on. There would be no need for them to post what pattern their race would be run on. All producers have to go out and stake their pattern for a race. The only ones that would do this would be the same ones that care enough to send in their results to EquiStat. I don't think they would have a meltdown posting what pattern they used. |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | Nevertooold - 2014-11-06 11:29 AM cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 11:10 AM The short of this topic, people want more rules in barrel racing. More work for the host, as now they will have to measure prior to advertising the event this can even be a year in advance, so people can know what category the pattern will be. What happens if the event advertises one pattern, but the arena changed the dimensions so the pattern will not be as advertised. You're the one that is making it difficult.
A producer would have the dimensions of the different patterns and the day of the race would put one of them in place and when posting results would post what pattern it was run on. There would be no need for them to post what pattern their race would be run on. All producers have to go out and stake their pattern for a race. The only ones that would do this would be the same ones that care enough to send in their results to EquiStat. I don't think they would have a meltdown posting what pattern they used.
LOL.....why can some people make something that is so simple.....so hard..... |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 928
Location: Northern CA | daisycake123 - 2014-11-05 3:55 PM Too many varibales like ground, how mqny in a drag, inside arena, outside arens, air temp and dampness of ground vs wetness. Deepness of ground. I could go one. Ifmthey put new ground in a arena.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Way too many things come into play besides the size of the pattern. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Seriously people. We ALL know that the ground makes a huge difference and this is meant to be a selling tool. AZ and the Northwest already use this as a selling tool and EVERYONE knows there are variables but you can look up results and see where a horse is usually running on a standard pattern.
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Can we get the like button back as our Christmas gift?!? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Nevertooold - 2014-11-06 11:29 AM
cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 11:10 AM The short of this topic, people want more rules in barrel racing. More work for the host, as now they will have to measure prior to advertising the event this can even be a year in advance, so people can know what category the pattern will be. What happens if the event advertises one pattern, but the arena changed the dimensions so the pattern will not be as advertised.
You're the one that is making it difficult.
A producer would have the dimensions of the different patterns and the day of the race would put one of them in place and when posting results would post what pattern it was run on. There would be no need for them to post what pattern their race would be run on. All producers have to go out and stake their pattern for a race. The only ones that would do this would be the same ones that care enough to send in their results to EquiStat. I don't think they would have a meltdown posting what pattern they used.
From what people are saying they would want it posted prior, as this would be one of the factors they would look at when entering, as some have said certain horses run better on certain sized patterns.
Most producers, I thought, post the dimensions of the pattern with the results, if the producers are already doing this, people can figure it out for themselves. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 356
| WYOracer - 2014-11-06 11:25 AM
Anyone else noticed that now when producers are using laser stakes instead of ground stakes the barrel is set in the middle of the stake instead of at the lip of the barrel? So when I was at a barrel race a couple months ago and they say its set to a standard I don't see how it truly was a standard since the barrel was set on the stake differently. Makes a difference in my mind.
WPRA rules state that barrels should be centered on the markers as well.
12.12.9. When setting barrels on marker, center of barrel shall be positioned over where marker comes out of the ground.
I've seen it done both ways at different events, whether they have stakes or lasers. No idea why though! |
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 Veteran
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Location: would like to be where it does not snow | Yes please give us back the like button !!! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 972
Location: Texas! | k.maddocks24 - 2014-11-06 11:06 AM WYOracer - 2014-11-06 11:25 AM Anyone else noticed that now when producers are using laser stakes instead of ground stakes the barrel is set in the middle of the stake instead of at the lip of the barrel? So when I was at a barrel race a couple months ago and they say its set to a standard I don't see how it truly was a standard since the barrel was set on the stake differently. Makes a difference in my mind. WPRA rules state that barrels should be centered on the markers as well. 12.12.9. When setting barrels on marker, center of barrel shall be positioned over where marker comes out of the ground. I've seen it done both ways at different events, whether they have stakes or lasers. No idea why though!
Yes but not every event is WPRA so not everyone is playing by their rules. The times will be different whether you stake middle, inside or outside. Caused a big uproar at a futurity a couple years ago when a barrel was set on the wrong side of a stake for a few runs. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 12:05 PM Nevertooold - 2014-11-06 11:29 AM cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 11:10 AM The short of this topic, people want more rules in barrel racing. More work for the host, as now they will have to measure prior to advertising the event this can even be a year in advance, so people can know what category the pattern will be. What happens if the event advertises one pattern, but the arena changed the dimensions so the pattern will not be as advertised. You're the one that is making it difficult.
A producer would have the dimensions of the different patterns and the day of the race would put one of them in place and when posting results would post what pattern it was run on. There would be no need for them to post what pattern their race would be run on. All producers have to go out and stake their pattern for a race. The only ones that would do this would be the same ones that care enough to send in their results to EquiStat. I don't think they would have a meltdown posting what pattern they used. From what people are saying they would want it posted prior, as this would be one of the factors they would look at when entering, as some have said certain horses run better on certain sized patterns. Most producers, I thought, post the dimensions of the pattern with the results, if the producers are already doing this, people can figure it out for themselves.
I live in the US and I've never know a producer to post the dimensions of a pattern so my idea is for the US. The only producer I've ever seen post what pattern they are going to run on is the ANHA in Waco so 1 out of 8097098 runs in Texas I would say they aren't posting pattern sizes. Producers could use it as a drawing card but most barrel racers could really care less what pattern they are going to run on. Some producers tend to use the same size patterns in different arenas and it doesn't matter that the ground changes etc., posting an arena record is fun and I do know some barrel racers that love breaking and setting arena records so instead of arena records that could have pattern records and EVERYONE would know that it had to be fast ground..pretty much a no brainer.
This year at the Congress, they broke arena records for the first time in 7 years. If you ever ran there you knew the ground could suck so it was a hats off to the arena crew for making the ground fast but it is still bragging rights for the arena record breaker.
Pole Benders have used their times to sell horses for years as the pole pattern is a set pattern and I guess they are smarter then barrel racers as they know ground plays a huge role whether a 20 second run or a low 19 will win it. They can go and see what horses they ran against to get a good idea how good that horse is. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | This is why every barrel racer should have to produce a barrel race so they actually get the whole setting up patterns do's and don'ts. We aren't talking about rodeos. We're talking abot the big 4 and 5-D races.
Wrapn3 will be on later or tomorrow to put her 2 cents in. |
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The Original Cyber Bartender
Location: Washington | Dang folks lighten up! I don't care about the like button just wish my font would stay when I have set it a million times! |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Nevertooold - 2014-11-06 12:26 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 12:05 PM Nevertooold - 2014-11-06 11:29 AM cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 11:10 AM The short of this topic, people want more rules in barrel racing. More work for the host, as now they will have to measure prior to advertising the event this can even be a year in advance, so people can know what category the pattern will be. What happens if the event advertises one pattern, but the arena changed the dimensions so the pattern will not be as advertised. You're the one that is making it difficult.
A producer would have the dimensions of the different patterns and the day of the race would put one of them in place and when posting results would post what pattern it was run on. There would be no need for them to post what pattern their race would be run on. All producers have to go out and stake their pattern for a race. The only ones that would do this would be the same ones that care enough to send in their results to EquiStat. I don't think they would have a meltdown posting what pattern they used. From what people are saying they would want it posted prior, as this would be one of the factors they would look at when entering, as some have said certain horses run better on certain sized patterns. Most producers, I thought, post the dimensions of the pattern with the results, if the producers are already doing this, people can figure it out for themselves.
This year at the Congress, they broke arena records for the first time in 7 years. If you ever ran there you knew the ground could suck so it was a hats off to the arena crew for making the ground fast but it is still bragging rights for the arena record breaker.
Pole Benders have used their times to sell horses for years as the pole pattern is a set pattern and I guess they are smarter then barrel racers as they know ground plays a huge role whether a 20 second run or a low 19 will win it. They can go and see what horses they ran against to get a good idea how good that horse is.
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | I guess the big deal here is why in the world would you be against something like this? It is a fabulous tool and could benefit so many people. And it isn't any more work for the producers either. They have to set a pattern so why not look up the dimensions and just set one of those that are listed. We need ONE big producer to get this going and I feel confident that others will follow suit. I'm sure they already have measurements for lots of patterns in lots of different venues... just need to get them put on paper, added to their website and voila! It would be awesome!
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 Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Ok people she is saying that if it is a small arena then you will have a small standard lets call it A, a medium arena would be B, and a large C so to say that you need to post which one you are using beforehand so people know beforehand is pointless. If your horse does not run well in a small pattern then do not enter a run at a small arena. She is not saying having the large arenas set up as a small pattern.
I think it's a nice idea. We have very few standard sized patterns up north so it would be nice to know how comparable my horses are running to lets say the pattern for the WPRA world finals, NFR, etc. We had a producer set up a Pendelton sized pattern in a bean field this year. I didn't get to run at it but I loved the idea! |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Nevertooold - 2014-11-06 12:26 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 12:05 PM Nevertooold - 2014-11-06 11:29 AM cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 11:10 AM The short of this topic, people want more rules in barrel racing. More work for the host, as now they will have to measure prior to advertising the event this can even be a year in advance, so people can know what category the pattern will be. What happens if the event advertises one pattern, but the arena changed the dimensions so the pattern will not be as advertised. You're the one that is making it difficult.
A producer would have the dimensions of the different patterns and the day of the race would put one of them in place and when posting results would post what pattern it was run on. There would be no need for them to post what pattern their race would be run on. All producers have to go out and stake their pattern for a race. The only ones that would do this would be the same ones that care enough to send in their results to EquiStat. I don't think they would have a meltdown posting what pattern they used. From what people are saying they would want it posted prior, as this would be one of the factors they would look at when entering, as some have said certain horses run better on certain sized patterns. Most producers, I thought, post the dimensions of the pattern with the results, if the producers are already doing this, people can figure it out for themselves.
This year at the Congress, they broke arena records for the first time in 7 years. If you ever ran there you knew the ground could suck so it was a hats off to the arena crew for making the ground fast but it is still bragging rights for the arena record breaker.
Pole Benders have used their times to sell horses for years as the pole pattern is a set pattern and I guess they are smarter then barrel racers as they know ground plays a huge role whether a 20 second run or a low 19 will win it. They can go and see what horses they ran against to get a good idea how good that horse is.
And the cool thing would be to see if the same horse could set those records on multiple patterns. It's a bad mamajama that could have a big pattern record and a small pattern record!
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | grinandbareit - 2014-11-06 1:13 PM Nevertooold - 2014-11-06 12:26 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 12:05 PM Nevertooold - 2014-11-06 11:29 AM cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 11:10 AM The short of this topic, people want more rules in barrel racing. More work for the host, as now they will have to measure prior to advertising the event this can even be a year in advance, so people can know what category the pattern will be. What happens if the event advertises one pattern, but the arena changed the dimensions so the pattern will not be as advertised. You're the one that is making it difficult.
A producer would have the dimensions of the different patterns and the day of the race would put one of them in place and when posting results would post what pattern it was run on. There would be no need for them to post what pattern their race would be run on. All producers have to go out and stake their pattern for a race. The only ones that would do this would be the same ones that care enough to send in their results to EquiStat. I don't think they would have a meltdown posting what pattern they used. From what people are saying they would want it posted prior, as this would be one of the factors they would look at when entering, as some have said certain horses run better on certain sized patterns. Most producers, I thought, post the dimensions of the pattern with the results, if the producers are already doing this, people can figure it out for themselves.
This year at the Congress, they broke arena records for the first time in 7 years. If you ever ran there you knew the ground could suck so it was a hats off to the arena crew for making the ground fast but it is still bragging rights for the arena record breaker.
Pole Benders have used their times to sell horses for years as the pole pattern is a set pattern and I guess they are smarter then barrel racers as they know ground plays a huge role whether a 20 second run or a low 19 will win it. They can go and see what horses they ran against to get a good idea how good that horse is. And the cool thing would be to see if the same horse could set those records on multiple patterns. It's a bad mamajama that could have a big pattern record and a small pattern record!
Kinda like the Triple Crown of Horse racing but for barrels |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Let me add this too... If there is a way to make something better, why not go for it! Things are always evolving, why not be a part of good changes... We live in the USA! We are all about being at the forefront of great ideas, lol!
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| RocketPilot - 2014-11-05 7:40 PM
Why would the producers or associations care if they help people market their horses?
Money and HYPE. The more people you have talking about something, the more hype you can get going, the more money you can bring back to your own pocket through different routes - concessions, entries, vendors, etc.
Put yourself in the shoes of a producer, if you think a bit bigger out of the box ... you could potentially start a bi-coastal comparison and use that to market what happened at your race compared to others' and entice people to come to your races to compare how they run to the big dogs.  |
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Mrs. Troy
Location: western Nebraska | In my area they started using lasers to mark the patterns at several of the arenas. We have three I regularly go to and you know the ground changes some but you also know what a good time is. I am going to call them and ask them what the measurements are. We also have quite a few open rodeos that set a standard-90ft between the 1st and 2nd and 105 to the 3rd with a 40 -45 ft score. At those rodeoes if someone is winning it with a middle to low 16 you know they had a great run. It would be fun if the results included the size of the pattern. I bet as time goes on it would be easy to compare them as there are probably more the same size patterns then you would think. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | doglady - 2014-11-06 1:51 PM In my area they started using lasers to mark the patterns at several of the arenas. We have three I regularly go to and you know the ground changes some but you also know what a good time is. I am going to call them and ask them what the measurements are. We also have quite a few open rodeos that set a standard-90ft between the 1st and 2nd and 105 to the 3rd with a 40 -45 ft score. At those rodeoes if someone is winning it with a middle to low 16 you know they had a great run. It would be fun if the results included the size of the pattern. I bet as time goes on it would be easy to compare them as there are probably more the same size patterns then you would think.
I agree as many arenas are built with the same dimensions. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 356
| WYOracer - 2014-11-06 12:25 PM
k.maddocks24 - 2014-11-06 11:06 AM WYOracer - 2014-11-06 11:25 AM Anyone else noticed that now when producers are using laser stakes instead of ground stakes the barrel is set in the middle of the stake instead of at the lip of the barrel? So when I was at a barrel race a couple months ago and they say its set to a standard I don't see how it truly was a standard since the barrel was set on the stake differently. Makes a difference in my mind. WPRA rules state that barrels should be centered on the markers as well. 12.12.9. When setting barrels on marker, center of barrel shall be positioned over where marker comes out of the ground. I've seen it done both ways at different events, whether they have stakes or lasers. No idea why though!
Agreed! I just referred back to the WPRA rule because (at least I've always been told) the WPRA is where the "standard" pattern originated from. I've been at barrel races where a barrel got put on the wrong side of a stake before, and it's not a good situation! From that standpoint though, a run on a standard pattern at a WPRA event wouldn't be comparable to a run on a standard pattern at an event where the barrels were set inside or outside the stakes. |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | k.maddocks24 - 2014-11-06 2:09 PM WYOracer - 2014-11-06 12:25 PM k.maddocks24 - 2014-11-06 11:06 AM WYOracer - 2014-11-06 11:25 AM Anyone else noticed that now when producers are using laser stakes instead of ground stakes the barrel is set in the middle of the stake instead of at the lip of the barrel? So when I was at a barrel race a couple months ago and they say its set to a standard I don't see how it truly was a standard since the barrel was set on the stake differently. Makes a difference in my mind. WPRA rules state that barrels should be centered on the markers as well. 12.12.9. When setting barrels on marker, center of barrel shall be positioned over where marker comes out of the ground. I've seen it done both ways at different events, whether they have stakes or lasers. No idea why though! Agreed! I just referred back to the WPRA rule because (at least I've always been told ) the WPRA is where the "standard" pattern originated from. I've been at barrel races where a barrel got put on the wrong side of a stake before, and it's not a good situation! From that standpoint though, a run on a standard pattern at a WPRA event wouldn't be comparable to a run on a standard pattern at an event where the barrels were set inside or outside the stakes.
I always thought barrels should be on the inside of the stake because that stake is measured from the fence/wall which in many rule books have a rule stating that the barrels need to be at least such a such a distance from the fence/wall so to me that means the outside edge of the barrel. But I have been to quite a few runs where they set the barrel to the ouside of the stake. Or like mentioned right over the top of the stake (which to me would be difficult to get exact). |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 356
| Just Bring It - 2014-11-06 2:16 PM
k.maddocks24 - 2014-11-06 2:09 PM WYOracer - 2014-11-06 12:25 PM k.maddocks24 - 2014-11-06 11:06 AM WYOracer - 2014-11-06 11:25 AM Anyone else noticed that now when producers are using laser stakes instead of ground stakes the barrel is set in the middle of the stake instead of at the lip of the barrel? So when I was at a barrel race a couple months ago and they say its set to a standard I don't see how it truly was a standard since the barrel was set on the stake differently. Makes a difference in my mind. WPRA rules state that barrels should be centered on the markers as well. 12.12.9. When setting barrels on marker, center of barrel shall be positioned over where marker comes out of the ground. I've seen it done both ways at different events, whether they have stakes or lasers. No idea why though! Agreed! I just referred back to the WPRA rule because (at least I've always been told ) the WPRA is where the "standard" pattern originated from. I've been at barrel races where a barrel got put on the wrong side of a stake before, and it's not a good situation! From that standpoint though, a run on a standard pattern at a WPRA event wouldn't be comparable to a run on a standard pattern at an event where the barrels were set inside or outside the stakes.
Maybe I'm an oddball here, but I'd rather see them centered on top of the stake. Then there can be no confusion among the barrel setters as to inside or outside.... |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 693
Location: Mansfield, TX | I like the idea of a standard pattern,,, but the only problem I see is that several of the arenas we lease already have "their" pattern set up on lasers. When they have lasers already in place we always try to use them and set our timers up in accordance with their pattern. Every once in awhile, we don't get our lasers exactly where they normally are (for one reason or another) but we always try to set them up right. Plus it also adds to excitement levels when someone breaks an arena record. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Destry Fleming - 2014-11-06 2:31 PM I like the idea of a standard pattern,,, but the only problem I see is that several of the arenas we lease already have "their" pattern set up on lasers. When they have lasers already in place we always try to use them and set our timers up in accordance with their pattern. Every once in awhile, we don't get our lasers exactly where they normally are (for one reason or another) but we always try to set them up right. Plus it also adds to excitement levels when someone breaks an arena record.
We wouldn't be changing the standard pattern but would actually be adding more patterns instead of just having one pattern that is known to be the standard pattern. Does that make sense?
I agree about the excitement of breaking an arena record as you of all people know how exciting it was the day Jordan Peterson broke the record at one of your races. We all know the ground had to be awesome for her to do so and was a hat's off to the Win$More ground crew and the facility.
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Destry, there have been lots of posts on this topic so I will try to summarize it for you.
Leave the "standard" pattern as is, but add 4 additional sizes to choose from when setting up your pattern... size A would be the current WPRA standard pattern, Size B would have ___ measurements, Size C would be ___, etc. You could have the NFR pattern as pattern C and then one smaller for a D pattern. Producers could choose the pattern size from the list and stake it according to the size of the venue they are running in. On the results you simply state which pattern you were using. It would be a fantastic tool for those who are buying and selling horses and would close up that regional gap.
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 Go Your Own Way
Posts: 4947
Location: SE KS | I think this would be a good deal. You have my vote.
Just want to add - wether th eproducer would notate prior to barrel race which pattern was being used would be helpful for those girls that have horses that do better on small patterns or large patterns which horse to bring. Mainly if barrel racer had never been to that venue before to know the set up. Then said barrel racer could decide, do I want to enter or I will pass for those that may not have 2 or more horses to chose from depending on if they are small or big pattern runners. Does this make sense.
I like bigger patterns, so I usually shy away from smaller patterns... (Can't think that fast.) :)
good topic.
Edited by Dinero10 2014-11-06 5:15 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Dinero10 - 2014-11-06 5:05 PM
I think this would be a good deal. You have my vote.
Just want to add - wether th eproducer would notate prior to barrel race which pattern was being used would be helpful for those girls that have horses that do better on small patterns or large patterns which horse to bring. Mainly if barrel racer had never been to that venue before to know the set up. Then said barrel racer could decide, do I want to enter or I will pass for those that may not have 2 or more horses to chose from depending on if they are small or big pattern runners. Does this make sense.
I like bigger patterns, so I usually shy away from smaller patterns... (Can't think that fast.) :)
good topic.
Nevertoold this is what I was talking about.
I can hear all the disgruntled people now when a pattern was advertised, but due to circumstances beyond the producers control the pattern had to be changed prior to the first run. |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 5:42 PM
Dinero10 - 2014-11-06 5:05 PM
I think this would be a good deal. You have my vote.
Just want to add - wether th eproducer would notate prior to barrel race which pattern was being used would be helpful for those girls that have horses that do better on small patterns or large patterns which horse to bring. Mainly if barrel racer had never been to that venue before to know the set up. Then said barrel racer could decide, do I want to enter or I will pass for those that may not have 2 or more horses to chose from depending on if they are small or big pattern runners. Does this make sense.
I like bigger patterns, so I usually shy away from smaller patterns... (Can't think that fast.) :)
good topic.
Nevertoold this is what I was talking about.
I can hear all the disgruntled people now when a pattern was advertised, but due to circumstances beyond the producers control the pattern had to be changed prior to the first run.
Even if it were to happen, it's not going to go from an A to a D... Maybe from an A to a B. Which probably won't bother many folks. Just those who love to have something to gripe about... And you'll never make that type of person happy regardless of what you do.
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | grinandbareit - 2014-11-06 6:13 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 5:42 PM Dinero10 - 2014-11-06 5:05 PM I think this would be a good deal. You have my vote.
Just want to add - wether th eproducer would notate prior to barrel race which pattern was being used would be helpful for those girls that have horses that do better on small patterns or large patterns which horse to bring. Mainly if barrel racer had never been to that venue before to know the set up. Then said barrel racer could decide, do I want to enter or I will pass for those that may not have 2 or more horses to chose from depending on if they are small or big pattern runners. Does this make sense.
I like bigger patterns, so I usually shy away from smaller patterns... (Can't think that fast.) :)
good topic. Nevertoold this is what I was talking about. I can hear all the disgruntled people now when a pattern was advertised, but due to circumstances beyond the producers control the pattern had to be changed prior to the first run. Even if it were to happen, it's not going to go from an A to a D... Maybe from an A to a B. Which probably won't bother many folks. Just those who love to have something to gripe about... And you'll never make that type of person happy regardless of what you do.
Amen!
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Nevertooold - 2014-11-06 6:16 PM
grinandbareit - 2014-11-06 6:13 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 5:42 PM Dinero10 - 2014-11-06 5:05 PM I think this would be a good deal. You have my vote.
Just want to add - wether th eproducer would notate prior to barrel race which pattern was being used would be helpful for those girls that have horses that do better on small patterns or large patterns which horse to bring. Mainly if barrel racer had never been to that venue before to know the set up. Then said barrel racer could decide, do I want to enter or I will pass for those that may not have 2 or more horses to chose from depending on if they are small or big pattern runners. Does this make sense.
I like bigger patterns, so I usually shy away from smaller patterns... (Can't think that fast.) :)
good topic. Nevertoold this is what I was talking about. I can hear all the disgruntled people now when a pattern was advertised, but due to circumstances beyond the producers control the pattern had to be changed prior to the first run. Even if it were to happen, it's not going to go from an A to a D... Maybe from an A to a B. Which probably won't bother many folks. Just those who love to have something to gripe about... And you'll never make that type of person happy regardless of what you do.
Actually, I don't really think it will matter to many people what size the pattern is… unless you're talking about the rodeos or the straight open races… Most producers put on 4d races and the majority of people will go regardless of the size of the arena. It's more help for those who are buying, selling or trying to compare their horses runs to some of the tougher horses. It would help sellers in regards to pricing their horses accurately and it would help buyers tremendously in their quest to find the right horse. This can work and I'm betting that one day we'll see it all over the place, because it's a GREAT concept!
It would open up so many options for those that are buying and selling… And how fun would it be to have a different record on each pattern. Those who have really nice horses would be going all over the place to see if they could set a record on more than one pattern. And no matter where you run, you could see a record breaking run on that particular pattern. It would be pretty cool!
Edited by grinandbareit 2014-11-06 6:48 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1314
Location: North Central Iowa Land of white frozen grass | I think one thing that would happen is the spread in price from a 1d horse to the 4 and 5 d horses will really exagerate. There would be no question on where a horse would fit in. We would just kill the value of a lot of horses. |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I like the idea!! |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | BS Hauler - 2014-11-06 6:54 PM
I think one thing that would happen is the spread in price from a 1d horse to the 4 and 5 d horses will really exagerate. There would be no question on where a horse would fit in. We would just kill the value of a lot of horses.
I don't think we would kill the value, just keep people honest. Fact is, a 4d horse isn't worth what a 1d horse is worth. Like I said earlier, it would close up that north - south gap. BUT, if you're trying to sell your 3d horse as a consistent 1d, then you're right, lol, those guys are going to be poop out of luck!
I personally see that as the BIGGEST PLUS!
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I think it's a great idea and the people we need to sell it to first is the big producers and I think it's such a simple deal it would be an easy sell. Every producer has to stake barrels and write down the dimensions in case a stake is lost. The hardest part would be getting the exact measurements and I would say that each producer pretty much already knows what size pattern they set up at the arenas they produce barrel races out so it would be just doing a little tweaking so everyone would be on the same page.
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | I feel like there are too many other mitigating factors effecting time for "standard patterns" in different venues to ever be truly comparable. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | SC Wrangler - 2014-11-06 7:12 PM I feel like there are too many other mitigating factors effecting time for "standard patterns" in different venues to ever be truly comparable.
We've already discussed that and it's already present with the Standard Pattern records already. It was still run and was impressive when it was done in Alvarado, TX, Pasco and Brazil. It's more or of an arena record done on a certain size pattern and holds a lot of bragging rights. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Nevertooold - 2014-11-06 7:19 PM SC Wrangler - 2014-11-06 7:12 PM I feel like there are too many other mitigating factors effecting time for "standard patterns" in different venues to ever be truly comparable. We've already discussed that and it's already present with the Standard Pattern records already. It was still run and was impressive when it was done in Alvarado, TX, Pasco and Brazil. It's more or of an arena record done on a certain size pattern and holds a lot of bragging rights.
And wasn't it the girl that ran the standard pattern record in Brazil that just spanked them at the American Qualifier in Glen Rose? It would have been cool if this had already been in place and she probably would be holding 2 records right now instead of one. |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | I've already posted this on FB and emailed it to several producers… Please feel free to copy and paste if you know a producer and would like to send it to them.
To Whom It May Concern:
Several of us in the barrel racing community would like to extend a proposition to you regarding the implementation of a new "standard" in barrel racing patterns. After much discussion, we have concluded that it would be really beneficial to many barrel racers if we could implement more than one "standard" pattern size.
Here is the thought… Leave the WPRA standard pattern alone and call it "Pattern A", from there choose 3 or 4 additional pattern sizes to be used, dependent on the size of the venue where the barrel race will be held. We could call the NFR sized pattern "Pattern C" then come up with a pattern for "B" and "D". Perhaps the Ardmore or Oklahoma City arenas could be used to compute those particular pattern sizes. Then a list of the dimensions for each pattern would be on your website and producers could choose what pattern would fit their venue.
The producer would then stake the pattern according to what "standard" they choose. The benefits of this type of standard will be felt across the barrel racing industry from Hawaii to Brazil. People all over the globe could use these standards to compare their runs with runs all over the country. It would be beneficial in closing the gap between horses who run in the Northern states vs the South. It would help, immensely, those who are purchasing horses out of state and help those that are marketing their horses as well. The really neat thing about this is that producers, all over the country, all over the world, will have a shot at seeing standard pattern records being set and broken. I'm sure that if we put our heads together on this deal, it could be something that would set the barrel racing world on fire. We could get a group together that would come up with a set of standards, work out any kinks that may arise, and it's clear sailing from there.
I truly hope that you will consider this proposition and please feel free to contact me for further assistance.
Thanks so much,
Joy Cameron
rebarranch@hotmail.com
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 972
Location: Texas! | grinandbareit - 2014-11-06 6:02 PM BS Hauler - 2014-11-06 6:54 PM I think one thing that would happen is the spread in price from a 1d horse to the 4 and 5 d horses will really exagerate. There would be no question on where a horse would fit in. We would just kill the value of a lot of horses. I don't think we would kill the value, just keep people honest. Fact is, a 4d horse isn't worth what a 1d horse is worth. Like I said earlier, it would close up that north - south gap. BUT, if you're trying to sell your 3d horse as a consistent 1d, then you're right, lol, those guys are going to be poop out of luck! I personally see that as the BIGGEST PLUS!
Nailed it! |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Thanks for writing that letter up and sending it out. |
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Mrs. Troy
Location: western Nebraska | I got the measurements from several arenas we go to that use laser markers. One is a 35ft score, 70 between 1st and 2nd and 100 to the 3rd. The other is a 40ft score, 80 between the 1st and 2nd and 90 to the 3rd.
I wonder how many other arenas use these same measurements.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 972
Location: Texas! | I see a lot of comments about the other factors that say this would be impossible like ground moisture, closed gates etc. but this is the same factors when the poles are set up and pole horses are still advertised off their times on their standard. Hmm?  |
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Chicken Chick
Posts: 3562
Location: Texas | Destry Fleming - 2014-11-06 2:31 PM I like the idea of a standard pattern,,, but the only problem I see is that several of the arenas we lease already have "their" pattern set up on lasers. When they have lasers already in place we always try to use them and set our timers up in accordance with their pattern. Every once in awhile, we don't get our lasers exactly where they normally are (for one reason or another) but we always try to set them up right. Plus it also adds to excitement levels when someone breaks an arena record.
If they wanted to get on board all they would have to do would find the pattern size closest to what they are currently set up for, do some tweaking and leave it alone. It would then turn into "their" pattern. I imagine there won't be many size changes in one arena. Most likely they will find the size that suits them, get set up for it, and every race there after would be set up the same. So one arena would have a B pattern with every race, and another arena may have a D pattern with every race. I don't think they will be going "I wonder what size pattern we are going to have this race?". Which they could, but it would just be easier to find what suits the arena and stick with it so I would assume that would be the most popular choice.
If they weren't on board they didn't have to use a standard pattern. They could do their own thing, it just wouldn't be classified as a B pattern or whatever. Same thing as with standard patterns now. If they do a standard great, if not the show still goes on but no one at that race can say "My horse ran a 18 on this pattern." because that pattern wasn't a set pattern size. Just what ever they wanted to set up that day.
Hope that makes sense. |
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Chicken Chick
Posts: 3562
Location: Texas | WYOracer - 2014-11-06 10:13 PM I see a lot of comments about the other factors that say this would be impossible like ground moisture, closed gates etc. but this is the same factors when the poles are set up and pole horses are still advertised off their times on their standard. Hmm?
Same with barrel horses being advertised with their standard pattern times. Everyone knows there are variables that may make that time faster or slower... but it is all we have to go on. I don't think the "too many variables" argument holds up. We deal with the same variables already. |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Okay everyone, go like our new facebook page… A New Standard in Barrel Racing… https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-New-Standard-in-Barrel-Racing/54087...
Let's keep this ball rolling!
Edited by grinandbareit 2014-11-07 1:31 AM
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 Last Comedian Standing 
Posts: 10919
Location: South Texas | RocketPilot - 2014-11-05 7:40 PM Why would the producers or associations care if they help people market their horses?
Because we all work together to improve and support things to make this industry grow......duh.....and most of us like myself are not JUST producers.
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Last Comedian Standing
Posts: 10919
Location: South Texas | As a producer of 10 to 12 multi day races a year for about 6 years, most of us use the same group of pens every year and we know those measurements off the top of our heads and can tell you our barrels measurements as well |
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Last Comedian Standing
Posts: 10919
Location: South Texas | halter_ego - 2014-11-06 11:41 AM daisycake123 - 2014-11-05 3:55 PM Too many varibales like ground, how mqny in a drag, inside arena, outside arens, air temp and dampness of ground vs wetness. Deepness of ground. I could go one. Ifmthey put new ground in a arena. Took the words right out of my mouth. Way too many things come into play besides the size of the pattern.
This is the same with the current standard pattern as well as when clocking pole bending horses who always run a standard pattern....yes it makes a difference and everyone should be aware of that......but on the whole the number (times) would be more relevant when comparing horses than the free for all you have now.....it is just a calibration to help standardize things a little better than they are today. |
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Last Comedian Standing
Posts: 10919
Location: South Texas | When you are trying to buy my horse off the internet and you go look at the past races it ran in currently you would have no idea what the measurements of those races were .....are you going to call the producer and say when Sally ran Bozo at your race on May 3rd what were the arena measurments? No but you wouldnt have too if the producer just posted there results with a simple notation of results run on pattern C or whatever |
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Last Comedian Standing
Posts: 10919
Location: South Texas | grinandbareit - 2014-11-06 1:10 PM I guess the big deal here is why in the world would you be against something like this? It is a fabulous tool and could benefit so many people. And it isn't any more work for the producers either. They have to set a pattern so why not look up the dimensions and just set one of those that are listed. We need ONE big producer to get this going and I feel confident that others will follow suit. I'm sure they already have measurements for lots of patterns in lots of different venues... just need to get them put on paper, added to their website and voila! It would be awesome!
As a producer NOT A PROBLEM.......as a barrel racer NOT A PROBLEM, as a seller of barrel horses and breeder in this industry.....NOT A PROBLEM and a good standardization tool for the industry |
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Last Comedian Standing
Posts: 10919
Location: South Texas | cheryl makofka - 2014-11-06 5:42 PM Dinero10 - 2014-11-06 5:05 PM I think this would be a good deal. You have my vote.
Just want to add - wether th eproducer would notate prior to barrel race which pattern was being used would be helpful for those girls that have horses that do better on small patterns or large patterns which horse to bring. Mainly if barrel racer had never been to that venue before to know the set up. Then said barrel racer could decide, do I want to enter or I will pass for those that may not have 2 or more horses to chose from depending on if they are small or big pattern runners. Does this make sense.
I like bigger patterns, so I usually shy away from smaller patterns... (Can't think that fast.) :)
good topic. Nevertoold this is what I was talking about. I can hear all the disgruntled people now when a pattern was advertised, but due to circumstances beyond the producers control the pattern had to be changed prior to the first run.
To be honest......the chances of that happening would be slim for most big races as these races are usually run in indoor pens and produced by producers who know those pens and measurements like the back of our hands way before any advertisement goes out |
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Last Comedian Standing
Posts: 10919
Location: South Texas | BS Hauler - 2014-11-06 6:54 PM I think one thing that would happen is the spread in price from a 1d horse to the 4 and 5 d horses will really exagerate. There would be no question on where a horse would fit in. We would just kill the value of a lot of horses.
I disagree ......it would bring more trueth to advertising......a 4D horse would still be a 4D horse.....but it would sure clean up some misrepresentation of horses being advertised as alleged 1D horses |
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Last Comedian Standing
Posts: 10919
Location: South Texas | As the producer of Wrapn3 Races I dont see this as a problem at all....we use the same set up at all arenas except the Rose Palace as it is more narrow than the other arenas we use. For example: We normally set 50 ft to the timer from the alley 30 foot to the 1st and 2nd then arc the 3rd at 100 feet. There is usually 80 foot between the 1st and 2nd barrel and the 1st and 2nd are 25 foot off the fence and that is in an arena that is 130 foot wide like Gonzales, Edna, Bryan (back pen). At Rose Palace we are 20 foot off the fences as the arena in more narrow and we are usually 90 foot to the 3rd due to arena conditions and holding pens. Plus we are 40 foot from the alley to the timers.
I apologize for typos.....on my Ipad heading to LA
Edited by snazzy 2014-11-07 7:01 AM
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 Saint Stacey
| snazzy - 2014-11-07 5:44 AM
BS Hauler - 2014-11-06 6:54 PM I think one thing that would happen is the spread in price from a 1d horse to the 4 and 5 d horses will really exagerate. There would be no question on where a horse would fit in. We would just kill the value of a lot of horses.
I disagree ......it would bring more trueth to advertising......a 4D horse would still be a 4D horse.....but it would sure clean up some misrepresentation of horses being advertised as alleged 1D horses
Snazzy has a very valid point. I know a girl that won a race one time with a 15.4 is a pen we frequent a lot. She advertised the horse as a 1D. Typical what wins in that one in a 14.4. The horse was not a 1D horse. He was just the best on that day. A girl that was new to the sport bought him and can't get a 1D time to save her life. She paid $12,000 and basically got a 3D/4D horse. There was no truth in the advertising of this horse and a newbie was taken advantage of because of it. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 878
Location: "...way down south in the Everglades..." | WYOracer - 2014-11-06 11:13 PM I see a lot of comments about the other factors that say this would be impossible like ground moisture, closed gates etc. but this is the same factors when the poles are set up and pole horses are still advertised off their times on their standard. Hmm?
Agree with this for sure....it's funny my SO is just learning about horses and the whole barrel thing so he was shocked when I told him that the patterns aren't the same. He asked me how I can tell going from pen to pen if my mare's improving. I told him I more or less have to compare a previous trip in that pen under the same producer to get an idea. He told me "you horse people are complicated"...lol
I like the idea myself. It would make it easier to compare from a buying stand point when you may not know the local talent level. Now getting it implemented...that's a whole other story but I do like the concept...good luck! |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Haven't said much, just been watching. Personally, I like the idea. :) |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Thanks Snazzy for your input.
For those who don't know who Snazzy is, she is one of our finest producers in Texas and is a get it done person. She is also the owner of Triple Vodka. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas |
It looks like it's rolling pretty well! |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | I think it's going to be easier to get people to standardize the pattern size than it will be to get them to set the barrels the same way. I know I was shocked to learn the people in the south don't set the barrels in the center of the marker/stake. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Nevertooold - 2014-11-07 12:01 PM It looks like it's rolling pretty well!
Boy I say, didnt take long for this ideal to really sink in, and nobody is being a butthead about it either. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 693
Location: Mansfield, TX | I have been pondering this and thinking about it since yesterday. I understand the concept and LIKE it, but I do have a few reservations. Part of me is afraid it could actually backfire on selling a horse in a few situations. Please hear me out before flaming away, there is a soultion I just haven't been smart enough to come up with it yet. So everyone put your thinking hats on...
There is a small arena in my neck of the woods where the arena record is a 13.6,, alot of the pro's run there and that record has stood for years... A couple of years ago they added more dirt to make the ground safer and guess what? Now a smokin run in that pen is a 14.0 or 1...nothing else changed...the barrels are on the same stakes and the timers are in the same place,, but the times have been quite a bit slower. I personally saw a horse that is FLYING this year win the rodeo with a lower 14.2 or 3 the best I can remember...I remember saying to myself that the ground just wasn't as fast as it used to be. I think in the situation it might hurt it someone trying to sell their horse. In the past, arena's have usually always staked or lasered their pens according to their size, so this would be quite a departure from business as usual.
As all barrel racers will agree, the ground is the single most important factor in running barrels and something that all producers struggle with. I'm glad to see that Chuck Dunn is monitoring this thread. He is a ground guro and I value his opinion.
With that said, I'm certainly not opposed to trying something like this if I can get the arenas to re-laser their patterns according to the measurements that are agreed upon. That would have to be the deciding factor for Win$More. The lasers that are in place are so much more accurate (in my opinion) than using stakes. It's going to be an uphill battle for awhile, but it sounds like y'all are "up" for it. |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Destry Fleming - 2014-11-07 7:01 PM
I have been pondering this and thinking about it since yesterday. I understand the concept and LIKE it, but I do have a few reservations. Part of me is afraid it could actually backfire on selling a horse in a few situations. Please hear me out before flaming away, there is a soultion I just haven't been smart enough to come up with it yet. So everyone put your thinking hats on...
There is a small arena in my neck of the woods where the arena record is a 13.6,, alot of the pro's run there and that record has stood for years... A couple of years ago they added more dirt to make the ground safer and guess what? Now a smokin run in that pen is a 14.0 or 1...nothing else changed...the barrels are on the same stakes and the timers are in the same place,, but the times have been quite a bit slower. I personally saw a horse that is FLYING this year win the rodeo with a lower 14.2 or 3 the best I can remember...I remember saying to myself that the ground just wasn't as fast as it used to be. I think in the situation it might hurt it someone trying to sell their horse. In the past, arena's have usually always staked or lasered their pens according to their size, so this would be quite a departure from business as usual.
As all barrel racers will agree, the ground is the single most important factor in running barrels and something that all producers struggle with. I'm glad to see that Chuck Dunn is monitoring this thread. He is a ground guro and I value his opinion.
With that said, I'm certainly not opposed to trying something like this if I can get the arenas to re-laser their patterns according to the measurements that are agreed upon. That would have to be the deciding factor for Win$More. The lasers that are in place are so much more accurate (in my opinion) than using stakes. It's going to be an uphill battle for awhile, but it sounds like y'all are "up" for it.
Well, I'm glad to see that it is on your mind, that means that the wheels are turning… I don't think that your concerns will cause any fires, lol. I think that most of us are willing to work together and try to compromise and come up with a system that can and will work for MOST venues and producers. That being said, I'd like to address some of your concerns.
As barrel racers we are all aware of the changes in ground conditions that can occur, even on a daily basis, such as at rodeos. We sometimes face those issues from one producer to the next when it comes to ground. Some like the ground a little deeper and some like it a little firmer. There will always be variables to consider. You mentioned a situation where a horse set a record and the ground was changed and so the times became a BIT slower… We have to remember that when we look at these results, we aren't just looking at one pen. Most people run their horses in a variety of venues so you will have an idea of what that horse averages on those patterns. Are they better in the small pens or the big pens? Some horses will kick your butt in a big pen but can't clock but a 3d time in a little pen. Well maybe the person that is looking to buy that horse runs mainly in the big pens… That horse would work great for them. And it gives people the ability to pinpoint what type of horse they are looking for.
And for us "Joe Blows" who just want to have fun with our horses (we make up the majority of barrel racers) it would give us some fun stuff to look at when we are competing at our local organizations. We can use these patterns and times to compare our runs with the rest of the country. And maybe it will give producers and rodeos committees some incentive to have better ground conditions when they begin to compare the runs at their event to other participating organizations. You will definitely have the option of opting out, but I don't know why you would want to. This sounds like a great opportunity to have some records set and broken at more than one of your productions. I'm sure that venues would be willing to move those lasers, if at all possible, to help out the barrel racing community. I for one, would love to see you hop on board! Thanks for the response, it is always good to hear opinions from those that share our passion for barrel racing!
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 Thick and Wavy
Posts: 6102
Location: Nebraska | doglady - 2014-11-06 8:51 PM I got the measurements from several arenas we go to that use laser markers. One is a 35ft score, 70 between 1st and 2nd and 100 to the 3rd. The other is a 40ft score, 80 between the 1st and 2nd and 90 to the 3rd.
I wonder how many other arenas use these same measurements.
Is that Lincoln? |
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Changing up the "Standard" Pattern...