Cdunn - 2014-11-07 3:00 PM

 I certainly think this has some real possiblilities and as a producer would not be opposed to giving it a try. It would be great to actually be able to compare runs on some type of standard pattern.

Cdunn - 2014-11-07 3:00 PM  I certainly think this has some real possiblilities and as a producer would not be opposed to giving it a try. It would be great to actually be able to compare runs on some type of standard pattern.

Destry Fleming - 2014-11-07 6:41 PM

I have been pondering this and thinking about it since yesterday.  I understand the concept and LIKE it, but I do have a few reservations.  Part of me is afraid it could actually backfire on selling a horse in a few situations.  Please hear me out before flaming away,  there is a soultion I just haven't been smart enough to come up with it yet.  So everyone put your thinking hats on...
There is a small arena in my neck of the woods where the arena record is a 13.6,, alot of the pro's run there and that record has stood for years... A couple of years ago they added more dirt to make the ground safer and guess what?  Now a smokin run in that pen is a 14.0 or 1...nothing else changed...the barrels are on the same stakes and the timers are in the same place,, but the times have been quite a bit slower.  I personally saw a horse that is FLYING this year win the rodeo with a lower 14.2 or 3 the best I can remember...I remember saying to myself that the ground just wasn't as fast as it used to be.  I think in the situation it might hurt it someone trying to sell their horse.  In the past, arena's have usually always staked or lasered their pens according to their size, so this would be quite a departure from business as usual.
As all barrel racers will agree, the ground is the single most important factor in running barrels and something that all producers struggle with. I'm glad to see that Chuck Dunn is monitoring this thread.  He is a ground guro and I value his opinion. 
With that said, I'm certainly not opposed to trying something like this if I can get the arenas to re-laser their patterns according to the measurements that are agreed upon.  That would have to be the deciding factor for Win$More.  The lasers that are in place are so much more accurate (in my opinion) than using stakes.  It's going to be an uphill battle for awhile, but it sounds like y'all are "up" for it.  
 

grinandbareit - 2014-11-07 7:39 PM Well, I'm glad to see that it is on your mind, that means that the wheels are turning… I don't think that your concerns will cause any fires, lol. I think that most of us are willing to work together and try to compromise and come up with a system that can and will work for MOST venues and producers. That being said, I'd like to address some of your concerns. As barrel racers we are all aware of the changes in ground conditions that can occur, even on a daily basis, such as at rodeos. We sometimes face those issues from one producer to the next when it comes to ground. Some like the ground a little deeper and some like it a little firmer. There will always be variables to consider. You mentioned a situation where a horse set a record and the ground was changed and so the times became a BIT slower… We have to remember that when we look at these results, we aren't just looking at one pen. Most people run their horses in a variety of venues so you will have an idea of what that horse averages on those patterns. Are they better in the small pens or the big pens? Some horses will kick your butt in a big pen but can't clock but a 3d time in a little pen. Well maybe the person that is looking to buy that horse runs mainly in the big pens… That horse would work great for them. And it gives people the ability to pinpoint what type of horse they are looking for. And for us "Joe Blows" who just want to have fun with our horses (we make up the majority of barrel racers) it would give us some fun stuff to look at when we are competing at our local organizations. We can use these patterns and times to compare our runs with the rest of the country. And maybe it will give producers and rodeos committees some incentive to have better ground conditions when they begin to compare the runs at their event to other participating organizations. You will definitely have the option of opting out, but I don't know why you would want to. This sounds like a great opportunity to have some records set and broken at more than one of your productions. I'm sure that venues would be willing to move those lasers, if at all possible, to help out the barrel racing community. I for one, would love to see you hop on board! Thanks for the response, it is always good to hear opinions from those that share our passion for barrel racing!

Nita - 2014-11-08 8:42 PM Can somebody please post the summary of the facebook post?? This is why I hate facebook!! I click on the link and all I see are posts that say how they like it and all that... can't find what the original post is about.

Nita - 2014-11-08 10:07 PM Thank you!! ...and I do like the concept. I don't think ground condition will be as much of a concern as speculated. I think it will become "my horse runs ?.?? on a B pattern where the arena record is ?.??" People will be able to keep track of what arenas have faster ground. Plus, you can use the arena record as a gauge, too. Heck, it can't possibly stay the same every year at the NFR, they truck in that dirt and I'm sure it's not the same year to year.

Destry Fleming - 2014-11-07 6:41 PM I have been pondering this and thinking about it since yesterday.  I understand the concept and LIKE it, but I do have a few reservations.  Part of me is afraid it could actually backfire on selling a horse in a few situations.  Please hear me out before flaming away,  there is a soultion I just haven't been smart enough to come up with it yet.  So everyone put your thinking hats on...

There is a small arena in my neck of the woods where the arena record is a 13.6,, alot of the pro's run there and that record has stood for years... A couple of years ago they added more dirt to make the ground safer and guess what?  Now a smokin run in that pen is a 14.0 or 1...nothing else changed...the barrels are on the same stakes and the timers are in the same place,, but the times have been quite a bit slower.  I personally saw a horse that is FLYING this year win the rodeo with a lower 14.2 or 3 the best I can remember...I remember saying to myself that the ground just wasn't as fast as it used to be.  I think in the situation it might hurt it someone trying to sell their horse.  In the past, arena's have usually always staked or lasered their pens according to their size, so this would be quite a departure from business as usual.

As all barrel racers will agree, the ground is the single most important factor in running barrels and something that all producers struggle with. I'm glad to see that Chuck Dunn is monitoring this thread.  He is a ground guro and I value his opinion. 

With that said, I'm certainly not opposed to trying something like this if I can get the arenas to re-laser their patterns according to the measurements that are agreed upon.  That would have to be the deciding factor for Win$More.  The lasers that are in place are so much more accurate (in my opinion) than using stakes.  It's going to be an uphill battle for awhile, but it sounds like y'all are "up" for it.  

 

Nevertooold - 2014-11-08 9:20 PM You just needed to scroll down a little bit.



 Several of us in the barrel racing community would like to extend a proposition to you regarding the implementation of a new "standard" in barrel racing patterns. After much discussion, we have concluded that it would be really beneficial to many barrel racers if we could implement more than one "standard" pattern size.



Here is the thought… Leave the WPRA standard p...attern alone and call it "Pattern A", from there choose 3 or 4 additional pattern sizes to be used, dependent on the size of the venue where the barrel race will be held. We could call the NFR sized pattern "Pattern C" then come up with a pattern for "B" and "D". Perhaps the Ardmore or Oklahoma City arenas could be used to compute those particular pattern sizes. Then a list of the dimensions for each pattern would be on your website and producers could choose what pattern would fit their venue.



The producer would then stake the pattern according to what "standard" they choose. The benefits of this type of standard will be felt across the barrel racing industry from Hawaii to Brazil. People all over the globe could use these standards to compare their runs with runs all over the country. It would be beneficial in closing the gap between horses who run in the Northern states vs the South. It would help, immensely, those who are purchasing horses out of state and help those that are marketing their horses as well. The really neat thing about this is that producers, all over the country, all over the world, will have a shot at seeing standard pattern records being set and broken. I'm sure that if we put our heads together on this deal, it could be something that would set the barrel racing world on fire. We could get a group together that would come up with a set of standards, work out any kinks that may arise, and it's clear sailing from there.



I truly hope that you will consider this proposition and please feel free to contact me for further assistance.



Thanks so much,

Joy Cameron

rebarranch@hotmail.com

CrossCreek - 2014-11-08 10:30 PM I agree with Destry...ground conditions would seem to make this an almost insurmountable task. It's ok to have a pattern B, C, what ever, that is "standardized". But a pattern B in an outdoor jackpot pen in Colorado would probably not be the ground equivalent of a pattern B in a well-worked, big entry race indoor race in, for example, TX. So you have a "1D" horse in Colorado that gets outrun half a second in the TX ground, and suddenly the 1D horse is only a 2D horse!!. How does that influence the industry in a positive vein???Any thinking individual who is in the market (for example), for a 1D horse, spending 35 to $75,000, is most assuredly going to know you cannot standardize because of ground conditions. It sounds all warm and fuzzy, but imho, it would not make me more comfortable about buying said 1D horse, simply because as a 40 year veteran of the sport, I KNOW ground conditions can change a 1D horse to a 2D horse...fast. As a prospective buyer, it would NOT influence me. Until you can standardize the ground, there is no real reason to standardize the pattern. It's of no real use that I can see, at least not for the reasons put forth, ie, to help out of state buyers feel more comfortable about the horse. Sorry, not buying it. I have nothing against it, I just don't see where it's much if any help to the industry.

CrossCreek - 2014-11-08 10:30 PM


I agree with Destry...ground conditions would seem to make this an almost insurmountable task. It's ok to have a pattern B, C, what ever, that is "standardized". But a pattern B in an outdoor jackpot pen in Colorado would probably not be the ground equivalent of a pattern B in a well-worked, big entry race indoor race in, for example, TX. So you have a "1D" horse in Colorado that gets outrun half a second in the TX ground, and suddenly the 1D horse is only a 2D horse!!. How does that influence the industry in a positive vein???Any thinking individual who is in the market (for example), for a 1D horse, spending 35 to $75,000, is most assuredly going to know you cannot standardize because of ground conditions. It sounds all warm and fuzzy, but imho, it would not make me more comfortable about buying said 1D horse, simply because as a 40 year veteran of the sport, I KNOW ground conditions can change a 1D horse to a 2D horse...fast. As a prospective buyer, it would NOT influence me. Until you can standardize the ground, there is no real reason to standardize the pattern. It's of no real use that I can see, at least not for the reasons put forth, ie, to help out of state buyers feel more comfortable about the horse. Sorry, not buying it. I have nothing against it, I just don't see where it's much if any help to the industry.

grinandbareit - 2014-11-09 8:26 AM I can certainly see some of the points you make CrossCreek, but here is my thoughts... The feeling that I'm getting when I read these type of arguments is that barrel racers don't think that OTHER barrel racers are very intelligent. Certainly there will be people that can add a negative swing on ANYTHING, but this is a pretty simple proposal. The industry (producers, rodeo committees, etc…) can use this to simplify staking a pattern. It doesn't really matter (to me) if we TRACK pattern records or not, quite frankly. If people WANT to track those records then maybe we can set up a website devoted to that. Where is the website for the current world record on a standard pattern, and how do we even know that it is ACTUALLY the record? Somebody at some little playday may have run a 16.4 on a standard and didn't even know it was the record, lol. The pole pattern is the pole pattern in every arena everywhere… If you have a horse that runs a 20 second pattern the MAJORITY of the time, then people know it's a jam up pole horse. When people look at times they generally look at the average. I have a horse that set an arena record last year, he hasn't set another one since, but I guess we all know he's capable of it, lol. This is just a fun tool (that the industry needs) to give us a "standard" in different venues. Rodeo judges and committees won't have to wonder how to stake their patterns, this will simplify it for them. Just choose the one that fits your venue. Pretty simple, and I've decided that I'm all about keeping this as simple as possible. The more research I do, the more I feel that we should make this system as simple as possible so that it can be user friendly. Venues can and will still have arena records, this system will not interfere with that at all. And if the producers don't want to use it, they don't have to. It's a win win for everyone.

NJJ - 2014-11-09 8:38 AM     You know when I see all of these negative responses to a very simple concept, it tends to remind me of years ago and the whole "D" system debate......and that system has done nothing more than bring the VALUE up on horses. The only ones that I can see being hurt by this concept is the sellers that continually "overstate" the talents of their horses.

Destry Fleming - 2014-11-09 2:26 PM

Whoa!! Whoa!! Whoa!!! My comments were never intended to be negative.. Far from it, I was just playing devil's advocate. I am not opposed to it at all. In fact, I think this could work and maybe even be improved on. For Instance, I would like to go one step further and even say that the pattern be staked or lasered from the center of the alley. We have leased several pens that had 2 alleys. We always stake the pen from the center of the entrance alley so it is the same distance to the first barrel whether you run right or left. A lot of people have asked us why we did that and my reply was that it had to be the SAME distance to the first barrel for everyone. Now think about that for a second... say you use the left handed alley,, it would be a shorter distance to the lefty's first barrel.. These are all issues that something like this could help address. 
But also want to go one step further and say that if people get blasted for posting their opinions it won't be long until no one will post their opinions and for this to work everyone needs to keep an open mind and have input.

casualdust07 - 2014-11-09 2:37 PM I also think barrel racers need to apply some common sense. I have always taken into account that a standard pattern outside versus a building would be different. I keep a range in my head of what a good time on a standard is and then use my thinking brain to say- hey, this pen was outside in California… ground probably isn't the same as the arena in Waco where ANHA is ran. Or, hey this race was put on with one tractor man with a simple drag and this race had three tractor drivers with a reveal 4 in 1…ground was probably better. As far as buying horses and comparing times are concerned, it's *always* buyer beware. And it *always* takes some common sense. No, you should never just rely on the size of the pattern when looking at where a horse clocked. You need to know size of the race, who was there, how often the horse runs in that D, etc.. Theres a ton of factors involved. But this would sure help on some of the discrepancies. For example- some people run standard patterns A LOT and need a horse they know does well on a big set up. It's great for them because they know what times they should look for. Say my area runs a lot of high 14 low 15 second patterns.. well shoot- what does that mean?? how does that compare to the 14 second pattern that can be run at Glen Rose? I would have to look it up and ask the producer what the measurements were myself. Which is no problemo, I can do that.. but it would be pretty convenient to know that 8 times out of 10 this horse runs X time on a standard B pattern across the state of TX, or wherever.

Morab76 - 2014-11-08 11:42 PM In horse racing there are standard distances and that information as well as turf/dirt and the time it took to cover the 1/4s as well as the entire distance are given. Different tracks have different surfaces and are affected by weather as well.  By knowing the surface at different tracks, recognizing some are better mudders, and other factors then trainers, owners, buyers and sellers have access to valuable nformation for gauging their athletes' performance and possible value.



Although I think what s being proposed is a great concept and will be super convenient for providing real time feedback and results, I do not see it being very user friendly as a way to keep track of arena records and tmes in different states and regions on specific sized patterns and surfaces.  I see a database that can be accessed through a website as the best and most efficent way to track that information and make it easily searchable.  However, FB does have a search feature on pages.  Maybe I am missing what is trying to be accomplished.



It is great to see branstorming going on and folks working together.

 

ropenrun - 2014-11-09 3:50 PM I think Destry is right.  You can't consider the opposing voice as negative.  You have to consider it as input.  It takes all kinds of input and discussion from a variety of situations to make any kind of change work.  Everyone has had different experiences whether you are a producer, competitor, even sponsors input is needed to make changes a reality.  All situations are different.  Not talking about this specifically, but in general what works for me in my part of the country may be an impossibility in  the south and even a slimmer possibility in many Canadian pens as some of them are realy realy small, or say Rapid City ProRodeo where the pattern is won with a mid 12 second run.



You need to look at this with a nonthreatening mindset, weigh all the pro's and con's, and let everyone's considerations  be taken into account to have a positive outcome.  I'm personally not sold yet but as a producer and competitor for 1) - I haven't studied it yet and 2) - change of mindset is often hard the older you get, the harder it can be.   I need to go through it, digest it all, make considerations, and then form my educated decision.  But for now, I would be uncomfortable posting any concerns that would be against some of the proponents as it is not worth getting blasted for...and once that happens then it is hard to win someone over again.   You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.  And when you areasking people to buy into change you need that honey.

rodeomom3 - 2014-11-09 4:36 PM


I don't think it has been done in the past because everyone excepted the current standard pattern as the only "set" pattern.  Not all arenas are big enough to run  the current standard pattern so everyone just set their own.  Different organizations will set different stakes in the same pen so you have to ask if it is "staked the same" as the outher guys pattern if you want to compare runs.    I think having some set patterns is a great idea.  Everyone knows to take into consideratin the differing ground and arena conditions, they already have to do that when comparing runs on the current standard pattern run at different arenas.  We have a race in our area coming up that is being run on the NFR pattern.  We know it won't be tough like the T&M, no blind first barrel, crowd, etc. but everyone is loving the idea and being able to compare- same concept as Joy as suggesting.

SweetT - 2014-11-10 11:16 AM

Yes it is hard to run so many different patterns and to buy a horse out of state without having seen it run on a timer in a familiar arena. BUT, as someone who runs in NBHA jackpots, super shows, and pro rodeos, the mark of a good horse is being able to run in a variety of different pens. I've ran in everything from a 11 second pattern to an 18 second pattern. I've had horses that will eat up a small pen and barrel hit the 2d in a larger pen, and vice versa. I feel it keeps the playing field a bit more even for pros and novices alike. As for buying horses and wanting to know what they run, that's just the risk you take. If you're buying a horse in the upper 5 figures, you should either be able to gauge his talent by watching him or riding him, or take someone with you that can. Overall, I'm not a supporter.

WYOracer - 2014-11-10 11:30 AM

 I think it's going to be a great tool.  I am already finding myself looking at results and thinking if we had this already it would give a gauge whether horses really laid one down or was just the best that day and nothing else showed up.  I hate that half the arenas around me when different producers come in the arena is changed just slighly, whether it is how they set the barrels on the stakes or the score I never know if it got really wolfy or the pattern is different when unfamiliar horses are running or the usual top runners don't show up.

SweetT - 2014-11-10 11:38 AM

Most rodeo producers know to set the barrels at least 10 ft off the fence, I've never been to anywhere where it was closer. I just think that having a set of 4 different patterns takes the variability out of it. (Maybe that's not the right word, brain fart) most patterns are made to fit an arena, as they should be. Sometimes, along the rodeo road you will run into set ups with a side gate and 20 ft of stopping room and it just adds an element of difficulty to it. I would never run my horse somewhere that I think he would get hurt, drawing out is too easy, but I do like the added element of difficulty. I think it's why Pendleton is so popular with barrel racers. It's huge and on grass, so it changes it up. I used to run in a 3 jackpot series that started out whth the NFR pattern, had a medium pattern, and then ended on the Pendleton pattern. This evened the playing field, and was fun bcuz pf the added difficulty. There is already one set "standard" pattern, so I just believe it is an unnecessary complication to set forth these 4 or 5 patterns that are the be all end all of everything.