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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
 
Location: Oklahoma | Any suggestions?? Called a local vet and they had never done one before. Said they could send the blood work off, but it wouldn't be 100% accurate.
I'm not sure if I'm dealing with ulcers, him just looking/moving this way from his injury and being on stall rest or if it's EPM. Just wanting to rule it out!
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
  
Location: Texas | There is no definitive test that absolutely tells you that your horse has EPM. Unless you are doing a necropsy. Blood tests give you an idea of exposure... A good way to test is to take a titer, and then do a second titer several weeks later to see if the number is rising, falling, or staying constant. A rising titer indicates active infection because they are making more antibodies... a falling titer indicates clearance of infection. But horses can mount a low immune response in the presence of infection if they are just not good at fighting it.. on the flip side horses can have a huge immune response over a small infection. EPM is a PITA to diagnose.
If you want to test for EPM, I would do a blood titer and have a qualified vet perform a neuro exam on the horse to see if there are signs of EPM- such as ataxia, muscle atrophy, etc... |
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Go to Dr. Gary White in Sallisaw. He draws blood on site and has a test of his own, but also sends blood to Florida to be tested by www.pathogenes.com for the Orogin 10 treatment. I have an appointment with him on Wednesday to have a couple of mine checked out.
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | EPM is evident way before any of the neurological signs show up if you know your horse. One of the horses that I'm testing on Wednesday is a super nice 3 yr old cutter. We bought him for a fraction of what he's worth because he was super flighty on the ground and no one wanted to deal with it. I brought him home and did all of the normal maintenance on him, but also started him on ReBalance just to see if it helped him....By day 5 on the ReBalance he was like a different animal. It seemed like he changed over night. I couldn't even brush his tail when we first brought him home...and now I can lift his tail straight up and pick up all of his feet. No extra training...no extra attention. The only thing I did was give him ReBalance. Since ReBalance does not kill the protozoa I am having him tested now so that I can treat him with Orogin 10. I just completed an Orogin 10 treatment on my 27 yr old mare and it has helped her tremendously. No amount of feed would add the weight that she has gained with that treatment. Her levels were still very high after two bottles of ReBalance. |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Thank you both for the info! Just got an appointment with Dr. White on Wednesday afternoon to scope and do EPM!
He has given me problems with picking up feet before, but I attributed that to him being out everywhere. Got him chiro'd and he was better. Then started giving me issues (trims, resisting alley way) and we found suspensory inflammation. Been on stall rest, but looks awful! He looked great when he was on alfalfa, but I switched to grass hay (he's on a round bale, so I somewhat don't think it's ulcers) once he was stalled. |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | This is my old mare that just finished her treatment. She's going to be 28 this year and has no teeth in the back. The 3 yr old I mentioned has gained so much weight from just being on the ReBalance that he doesn't look like the same horse. EPM can cause so many problems that you don't realize that it was the problem all along. I fought lameness issues and injuries on my rodeo horse for over a year before I got him to Dr. White and he diagnosed it immediately.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1092
Location: OK | My horse would blow off the first like a madman but was gentle. Once in awhile, when he was trotting I would see his legs swing kinda funny. I thought he had a stifle problem or something but Dr. White wanted to test him for EPM. He tested positive. We did the Orogin. After this treatment he told me to ride him and wait 3 weeks to see how much he improved. He said some horses will have some kind of immune or inflammatory response later, it's not necessarily a relapse but a side effect I guess and at that point, we will treat with something else. It all comes from the place in FL. In total, the whole thing is less than $500.
I asked him about Marquis and other treatments and he recommended this. |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Good to hear!!! I'll have to look into the ReBalance! He looked fine and worked fine during the middle of May to about middle of June, then Dr. White found stifle issue and injected. Worked fine for a little bit and I've had different vets find a multitude of things...chipped/sore feet, never been chiro'd before, did accupuncture, and finally took him to lameness locator and found the suspensory inflammation. I'm not doubting that was the biggest problem of all....but I'm wondering if this could finally be my real problem. |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | I agree....I have found that if you start having behavior issues that you didn't have before (not wanting to load in the trailer when they know how, not letting you pick up their feet, depressed attitude or super nervous and flighty), that is one of the first signs of EPM. Later signs are loss of topline, atrophy over the hips, loss of body condition, possibly acting like they don't see well, one or both ears drooping, constant trouble with stifles, unexplained body soreness, random bucking when they are warmed up and typically not a bucker....all these can point to EPM. I feel like it is way more prevalent than most people think and it's going to be the new worms....it's going to be something that we have to stay on top of all the time (if you have a competition horse that's regularly stressed)....thankfully, the treatments are getting more affordable all the time, but after all, it IS a parasite. |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | jojammer - 2014-12-01 11:16 AM My horse would blow off the first like a madman but was gentle. Once in awhile, when he was trotting I would see his legs swing kinda funny. I thought he had a stifle problem or something but Dr. White wanted to test him for EPM. He tested positive. We did the Orogin. After this treatment he told me to ride him and wait 3 weeks to see how much he improved. He said some horses will have some kind of immune or inflammatory response later, it's not necessarily a relapse but a side effect I guess and at that point, we will treat with something else. It all comes from the place in FL. In total, the whole thing is less than $500. I asked him about Marquis and other treatments and he recommended this.
Thank you! Glad to hear two reviews on Dr. White! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1092
Location: OK | I have also read some studies that mentioned side effects when healing. Depending on how much neuro damage was done, as it comes back, it can cause sensations in the legs etc. One said that as the nerves healed, the horse would kick at nothing, presumably from pins nad needles feeling. Just something to keep in mind. It also said it affected some horses' eyesight for awhile.
My horse had a terrible topline and he is not old. I switched feed, then doubled feed and he lost weight. I tried ulcer treatment etc. No improvement. Then he started coughing when he would eat. He was having a hard time swallowing. In just the 10 day treatment and the 2 weeks after, he looks a little better. I've already started riding him and he feels better. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1092
Location: OK | I'd like to know more about the ReBalance. What does it do?
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | ReBalance is the old treatment. It's cheap and helps, but it doesn't last. I've been told that it only suppresses and does not kill the protozoa. Everything that I have treated with ReBalance we have gone back and treated with (previously we used Diclazuril I.V. and now) Orogin 10.
My rodeo gelding that was the first that I treated had very subtle symptoms. By the time I got him to Dr. White he had been turned out for about 4 months because I couldn't keep him sound. Dr. White was looking him over and ran his hand down the horse's left back leg and asked me to do the same....it was cold as ice. He had lost circulation in that leg, but regained normal bloodflow by day 4 on the Diclazuril drip.
If I have one that starts acting a little off, EPM is the first thing I rule out now. |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12838
| Just for curiosity do you have barn cats? |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Nope, no cats. Would they help? |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | (Re: Barn Cats) Everyone is trying to do their own investigation on where it's coming from. It's not likely that we will ever be able to prevent it, we will have to educate others on how to spot it...or start treating all horses in training prophylactically.
Muscle atrophy as well as many of the other "symptoms" that people attribute to EPM evolve over time... You have to be tuned into your horse and recognize when something is off. |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | rachellyn80 - 2014-12-01 2:03 PM (Re: Barn Cats) Everyone is trying to do their own investigation on where it's coming from. It's not likely that we will ever be able to prevent it, we will have to educate others on how to spot it...or start treating all horses in training prophylactically.
Muscle atrophy as well as many of the other "symptoms" that people attribute to EPM evolve over time... You have to be tuned into your horse and recognize when something is off.
Ohh, okay. I thought maybe a cat would ward off a possum.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1092
Location: OK | We used to get coons and stuff in our barn but now that my dog lives there full time, no animals are getting in there! or anywhere near the arena, or the pasture, or pond, or yard lol. He's a soldier. We do however have alot of birds right now. I have to wonder if birds can carry it ?? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1092
Location: OK | I think fall is when skunks reproduce too, so maybe them...
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Ugh. My lab stays down at the barn almost all the time, but he's more there for the companionship... I don't think he's gonna pose a big threat. Lol.
My barn butts right up against some woods... I'm sure anything and everything comes around. |
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Longneck - 2014-12-01 3:30 PM rachellyn80 - 2014-12-01 2:03 PM (Re: Barn Cats) Everyone is trying to do their own investigation on where it's coming from. It's not likely that we will ever be able to prevent it, we will have to educate others on how to spot it...or start treating all horses in training prophylactically.
Muscle atrophy as well as many of the other "symptoms" that people attribute to EPM evolve over time... You have to be tuned into your horse and recognize when something is off. Ohh, okay. I thought maybe a cat would ward off a possum.
Possums arent the only carriers- And the problem is on the ground and in the drinking water. So while the cat may keep them out of the barn, they cant eliminate the contamination in the outside pens, pastures or water sources. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 448
Location: lone star state | EPM is very complex because it affects different horses in different ways depending on where in the nervous system it attacks. It is currently being studied and researched and new things are constantly being learned about this complex character. Cats are being considered as a possible carrier. I suspect it is in some hay supplies as well. Because there is no way to control rodents or varmits from the corn hay soybean( and other grain or feed sources) field all they way to your barn, the focus has become on controlling the things you can control which is your barn and how grain hay is stored and handled at your property. As already stated this complex issue is going to become more about educating horse owners to quickly recognize and treat this parasite. My hope is that a drug soon becomes available that is a part of routine maintence such as worming to prevent the disease before it can start it's damage. |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | TurnLane - 2014-12-02 8:51 AM Longneck - 2014-12-01 3:30 PM rachellyn80 - 2014-12-01 2:03 PM (Re: Barn Cats) Everyone is trying to do their own investigation on where it's coming from. It's not likely that we will ever be able to prevent it, we will have to educate others on how to spot it...or start treating all horses in training prophylactically.
Muscle atrophy as well as many of the other "symptoms" that people attribute to EPM evolve over time... You have to be tuned into your horse and recognize when something is off. Ohh, okay. I thought maybe a cat would ward off a possum.
I wish someone would do a study on hay that has been fertilized with chicken litter. The coccidiosis connection interests me. |
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Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | Quite honestly, I think DDT killed this protozoa and when they outlawed DDT, it began taking over. 20 years ago you never heard of EPM and honestly, I didn't hear about it till about 10 years ago, and now, it's like worms....it's something I think all of them have and is going to be a part of routine maintenance in the future. JMO I know they said DDT caused cancer, but my dad used it all the time and lived to be 91.....I think it's all a money making scheme to ban all this stuff so that we have to spend more money on stuff to treat what the pests cause....maybe I'm just a conspiracy theorists, but follow the money and it's a plausible theory....and our horses are suffering. |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Diann it's already part of our routine maintenance. I'm taking two to Gary tomorrow morning to be tested and another one that we treated previously with Diclazuril to be retested.
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | rachellyn80 - 2014-12-02 4:08 PM Diann it's already part of our routine maintenance. I'm taking two to Gary tomorrow morning to be tested and another one that we treated previously with Diclazuril to be retested.
Is the ReBalance what you mean when you say it's already a part of your routine maintenance? Does it require a perscription? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 787
Location: NE Pa-Gods Country | instead of expensive testing, i treated my mare for 30 days with the Sulfadiazine /Permethrin (?) and saw some improvement. so treated for another 30 and she has put on significant weight and attitude improved.
My Heelers have killed 2 possums here in the last 2 months...
Edited by mhprimetime 2014-12-02 4:22 PM
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| I had a gelding that i carried to a vet last year he would not run she said,he was not,sore enough to,be hocks. He was still not right carried him in the spring to look at him a second time. She did not do a neuro exam said it was his hocks we fused them did not get better. Injected stifles no better. A friend talked me into going to another vet he did a neuro and he failed on side did the uc davis test came back negative. That vet did not know what to say. Did some reasearch say all the success with dr. Ellerison, florida. Did the bloodwork sent me the oroquin. Did the course and within the 3 or 4 day stated to,see some improvement. He could not put any weight on his right rear. He was the last horse to come now he is first to come in have not ridden him due to me being under the weather. But was out in pasture with him the other day he looks like i worked him his topline muscle looks like i have been riding him. He has gained weight also. Looks a lot sounder also. I think epm is caused by more the the one or two bugs they know about. Not sure about ddt. But all i know my gelding is better than he was. That high dollar vet that kept injecting she finally told me he has multiple joint disease and has limited runs left, with no clinical proof. Before i,did hocks we ultrasound suspenories, of course xrayed hocks, stifles, and front feet. Only thing i did not xray was knees.
Edited by daisycake123 2014-12-02 6:39 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1543
Location: MI | Did/do your horses that you've either had tested for EPM, or are testing, have neuro symptoms?
This spring I bought an 18yo mare back that I owned 10 years ago. She was a bit sore when I brought her home, mainly throughout her back, flexed sore on her hocks, needed her teeth done. Got her teeth done and rode her lightly and she was good throughout this summer. She used to be a steady eddy - I mean, the horse I could put anyone on, had NO problems with whatsoever. I know that was 10 years ago, but her attitude has changed and has grown worse this fall. I started her on Pentosan and she grew even worse. She is more needy now, anxious, and then she 'hopped'/bucked this fall when cantering in a straight line - she'd never, ever done that before, even when her back and hocks were sore this spring.
I've had my vet and an english trainer look at her, they don't think that it is neuro based on the crossing legs test and crossing over when turning in a tight circle. I think she has poor tail tone.
I'm not saying it isn't her hocks fusing, but I feel like there is something that is making her act like this too. I wouldn't mind testing, but I feel like my vet is going to think I'm nuts for insisting on it. I hope I'm not stealing your thread, it's just always been a lingering thought in my mind. |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | No problem! I like to read anything I can get my eyes on. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 302
| The 1st signs I noticed with my horse was slowed down eating his grain, then he started chewing with his head tilted and then started quidding his hay into balls. I thought that was an obvious sign of teeth issues (had teeth done 7 month prior). The day my vet came out to look at him was the day we noticed muscle atrophy to the left side of his head. He showed no neuro signs what so ever but the muscle atrophy pretty much happened over night. We started treating right away and during day 2 to 5 which is the die off period he got really lethargic, slow moving and his personality disappeared. It was hard to watch. I am at day 45 of treatment on Marquis and he is doing great. Everything back to normal except the muscle tone to his face. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2013
Location: Piedmont, OK | Regardless of what you treat them with I don't think you never get rid of the protozoa 100%. IMO you need to keep them on some type of immune booster for the rest of their lives to keep them healthy. |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | soonergirl98 - 2014-12-03 11:10 AM Regardless of what you treat them with I don't think you never get rid of the protozoa 100%. IMO you need to keep them on some type of immune booster for the rest of their lives to keep them healthy.
Maybe I dont understand it properly but I think ALL horses have the protozoa, kind of like we all have cancer cells in us. But it is wether they activate and the damage they do. I think you can kill off the abundance of the protozoa but it will not reverse the damage done to the spinal cord. But also the shedding of the protozoa from killing them can cause inflamation as well as having them in the first place. So they can improve symptomatically when you finish treatment and the inflamation subsides. Best I understand it anyhow. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Dr. White did the exam and didn't feel the need to draw blood... and he didn't have ulcers. He thinks it's just the lack of exercise (only being handwalked 20 minutes a day) and the 7.5% protein grass hay. Wants me to up his hay quality some and see how he does.
Is the ReBalance something that you just give them periodically (like a wormer) or a daily supplement? |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| rachellyn80 - 2014-12-02 5:08 PM
Diann it's already part of our routine maintenance. I'm taking two to Gary tomorrow morning to be tested and another one that we treated previously with Diclazuril to be retested.
Does rebalance treat one horse (1200lb) for 90 days? |
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